The OFFICIAL 2008-09 NHL Playoffs Thread

[sterlingice]

What a pretty goal in the Hawks-Canucks series. Top corner- if you're Luongo, what could you do to block that?

SI

[muns]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

What the hell was Hal Gill trying to do? Cut through his own crease, behind his goalie, at a crucial point in the game?

great fucking question....... Its not like he is a little dude either. That was a costly mistake, and one a vet shouldnt make.....

sigh..... game 7 here we come

[Suburban Rhythm]

Boucher needs to tie up Steckel if he's letting him back in that close. Fleury could only hope it bounces off of him, no time to react.

And the Hal Gill maneuver...ugh. He played really well when he first came over from Toronto last year, but now....too big and slow and clumsy. Especially when standing behind the goalie.

Varlamov is stealing this series. Sak had it, shots were 18-5 at the end of one period, including about a minute of 5-on-3. Pens needed to bury the Caps early there.

Just frustrating.

But, it was inevitable that this would go 7. And is anyone doubting we are looking at OT?

[JPhillips]

I really hope both teams can keep enough players together to keep this rivalry going. I'd love to see Ovie and Crosby still dueling in the playoffs a decade from now. They may not be the best teams in the NHL, but I don't think there's more entertaining hockey right now than Caps/Pens.

[Fidatelo]

I love that it went 7. I sort of kind of want the Pens to win, just because I think the Hurricanes would wipe the floor with the Washington Ovechkins, but in reality I don't really care. I'm just hoping for a close one, with Crosby and Ovie continuing to trade punches!

Also, after hammering Malkin after he cost the Pens the first two games, I have to give him credit for playing well since game 3. With Crosby and Ovie basically playing to a draw, he and Varlamov seem to be the X-factors.

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I think the NHL needs to think about moving the Hurricanes to Hamilton, if only so Wolfpack can stop living a life of misery 6 months of the year. I've never seen a guy get so down about his team all the time. I swear the 'Canes could be up 3 games to 0 in the Stanley cup finals and dude would find a way to be worried that they are holding the weakest 3-0 series lead in sports history.

You know, I actually laughed when you said this.

[wade moore]

Just curious..

Multiple people seem to have mentioned the Caps being a weak team..

Like I said, I don't follow hockey at ALL - weren't they the #2 team in their conference? How can everyone think they are such a weak team if so?

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Just curious..

Multiple people seem to have mentioned the Caps being a weak team..

Like I said, I don't follow hockey at ALL - weren't they the #2 team in their conference? How can everyone think they are such a weak team if so?

I haven't seen much of the Washington-Pittsburgh series but if I were to guess, I would say that some people call Washington a weak team because their weakest link during the regular season was in goal and their blueline isn't exactly the best defensively. The team has plenty of offense but can get in trouble on defense, as evidenced by their 2.93 team GAA in the regular season (tied with Detroit for the worst number amongst all playoff teams). My own impression of Washington was that they simply outscored everyone in the regular season, as they were 3rd in the league in goals for behind only Detroit and Boston.

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Just curious..

Multiple people seem to have mentioned the Caps being a weak team..

Like I said, I don't follow hockey at ALL - weren't they the #2 team in their conference? How can everyone think they are such a weak team if so?

I think a lot of it has to do with a couple of things: that they seem like they're Ovechkin and a bunch of supporting players with uncertain goaltending (though Varmalov has done his best to rectify that last issue), and that while good in the regular season, they're not a battle-tested playoff team, especially when compared to the Penguins, who reached the SCF last year against Detroit while Washington got dropped in the first round including losing Game Seven at home. It also doesn't help that Washington comes out of the Southeast Division, which has a poor reputation.

[BishopMVP]

Any comments on the Walker-Ward incident, with the suspension being overturned? Between that and the slash on Chara, should be an interesting and feisty game 6 at least.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Any comments on the Walker-Ward incident, with the suspension being overturned? Between that and the slash on Chara, should be an interesting and feisty game 6 at least.

Yeah, it is ridiculous that Walker won't be suspended. You sucker punch a guy who doesn't even have his gloves off and don't get suspended? What is that?

[bhlloy]

Just amazed at the Walker decision. Campbell has officially gone over the line from being biased/inconsistent/too lenient with skill players to WTFville with this one... and Walker has a bit of a rap sheet as well. It just makes absolutely no sense on any level at all.

It's a sucker punch on a third man in that seriously injured the other player, in the playoffs on national TV, and the guy that did it is no angel and isn't somebody that sells any tickets at all. And, the rules call for a suspension. He didn't even need to hand down one, he could have just gone with the refs call on the ice (which was 100% right). Just batshit insane.

[Wolfpack]

I'm also a bit surprised about the suspension being overturned, as well. The only thing I can possibly think of with regard to overturning the suspension was that Ward was overheard goading Walker or Cullen into it and therefore somehow that gave the wiggle room to say that Walker thought he was getting into a fight with Ward. I'm not saying this is true, but it's about all I can come up with. The other alternative would be, as others have mentioned, that the NHL officials are setting it aside for maniacal/selfish/cynical/stupid/less-kind-adjective reasons. I choose "selfish with a dash of cynical" because the league was probably making a calculated assumption that the Pens/Caps series could be over tonight and they needed something juicy to keep eyeballs on the TV for the remaining series while they went to their conclusions.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

And the Hal Gill maneuver...ugh. He played really well when he first came over from Toronto last year, but now....too big and slow and clumsy. Especially when standing behind the goalie.

He's a pussified version of Derian Hatcher.

[samifan24]

I wonder if Maurice will start Walker so Thornton or Lucic will fight him after the puck drops and get it over with.

[Maple Leafs]

So I went to bed after Sundin scored in the third to make it 4-3 Canucks. Was that the final, or did they add an empy netter too?

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

So I went to bed after Sundin scored in the third to make it 4-3 Canucks. Was that the final, or did they add an empy netter too?

7-5 White Sox.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

I'm also a bit surprised about the suspension being overturned, as well. The only thing I can possibly think of with regard to overturning the suspension was that Ward was overheard goading Walker or Cullen into it and therefore somehow that gave the wiggle room to say that Walker thought he was getting into a fight with Ward. I'm not saying this is true, but it's about all I can come up with. The other alternative would be, as others have mentioned, that the NHL officials are setting it aside for maniacal/selfish/cynical/stupid/less-kind-adjective reasons. I choose "selfish with a dash of cynical" because the league was probably making a calculated assumption that the Pens/Caps series could be over tonight and they needed something juicy to keep eyeballs on the TV for the remaining series while they went to their conclusions.

The quote from Walker was something along the lines of feeling like he was in an altercation. Ward got tied up with Cullen, Walker came over to help out, Ward grabbed him and the two started, but for whatever reason Ward stopped while Walker was throwing his gloves off. I did not see it live, but when I saw the replay all I could think was "Why the heck is Ward just standing there?". I'm not up on the current hockey "rules" for fighting, so no comment on the suspension itself, I have no clue what should / should not happen. I've got to believe it all centers on what was said between Ward/Cullen/Walker in the scrum.

Ah, here we go:

Originally Posted by Scott Walker

"Based on what was said on the ice as I was dropping my gloves, it was my understanding that I was engaged in an altercation," Walker said in a statement issued by the team.

I also agree with Rutherford and am surprised it took this long for something to blow up between these teams:

Originally Posted by Jim Rutherford

Rutherford said the incident was "clearly brought on by them," saying he felt the Hurricanes had taken shots from Boston players throughout the series,

Happy to see someone on the Canes stand up, whether or not it deserves a suspension.

[gstelmack]

Detailed comments from Jim Rutherford are here: Rutherford speaks out on Walker ruling - WRALSportsFan.com.

[DeToxRox]

I say Washington is a weak team because the division they played in was the weakest in the NHL and they feasted on that. But mostly they have a very average defense for a playoff team. They have some depth at forward with Backstrom, Semin, etc, but their D is very scary. Varlamov seems solid in net but he is still 21, and though Cam Ward proved age doesn't matter, it's still rare such a young kid can will a team to a Cup.

If Ovechkin doesn't play out of his mind Washington is not going to have a shot in any series, which is why I liken him to Bron in his first NBA Finals. And even if he does play well, if they matchup vs a team like Detroit with all their depth and experience, it'll be very hard for them to overcome that.

[wade moore]

Thanks for the feedback on the Caps question guys. I really honestly have no idea bout the NHL, but I'm finding watching some Caps games in the playoffs to be pretty exciting.

[watravaler]

Was in Chicago for Game 6 of the series...just WOW...best hockey game I've ever seen in person. Of course, it helps that the Hawks finally have a legit Stanley Cup contender on the ice, but I digress. The third period was insane, Vancouver took 2 leads, and the Hawks storm back literally moments later each time. Pat Kane and Jon Toews are amazing, and both are under 21! Dynasty?!? Whatever the case, the future is as bright as it has ever been for hockey in Chicago, the next 10-15 years are going to be great.

[Fidatelo]

10-15 years? A lot can happen in a decade...

[samifan24]

I would call Walker the third man in during the altercation between Ward and Cullen but what do I know? I only saw him skate over in between two players engaged with each other and sucker punch one of them in the face. If that's not a third man in, I don't know what Walker would have to do to deserve one.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by samifan24

If that's not a third man in, I don't know what Walker would have to do to deserve one.

I don't think the concept of "third man in" applies unless the other two guys get a fighting major. It has to be third man in to an actual fight for the automatic penalty to kick in.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by samifan24

I would call Walker the third man in during the altercation between Ward and Cullen but what do I know? I only saw him skate over in between two players engaged with each other and sucker punch one of them in the face. If that's not a third man in, I don't know what Walker would have to do to deserve one.

Where was the sucker punch? I must be missing something, because the only punch Walker throws with his gloves off is while Ward is staring right at him after chickening out.

Given all I hear from the die-hard NHL fans about fighting around here and how good it is for the NHL, I'm surprised more people aren't attacking Ward for trying to pick a fight with Cullen (who as Rutherford points out has been in like all of 2 fights his entire career) and then trying to back off as soon as Walker bails Cullen out...

[Logan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Where was the sucker punch? I must be missing something, because the only punch Walker throws with his gloves off is while Ward is staring right at him after chickening out.

Are you out of your damn mind?

[Sublime 2]

Ward will play tonight!

Ward said a team doctor saw "something" on an X-ray and advised him to wear a shield.

"I haven't worn one in 16 years," Ward said. "I'm not going to start now."

If the B's come out hitting again, I expect a win.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Logan

Are you out of your damn mind?

Sucker punch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

A sucker punch is a blow which is made without warning or preparation on the part of the recipient and so is usually delivered from close in. It is not possible to block such a punch and so people at risk of such blows must be alert to the proximity of potential opponents.

Ward (who was itching for a fight with Cullen) was tied up with Walker scuffling with him, they back off a bit, Walker throws down his gloves with Ward right there facing him, then Walker hauls off and hits him from the front. The closest that comes to being a sucker punch is because Ward was an idiot and decided to stand there like a dufus after instigating the whole squence, not because he didn't have any warning one was coming or any opportunity to defend himself. It's not like Walker came up behind him, threw his gloves down, spun him around, and decked him.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Where was the sucker punch? I must be missing something, because the only punch Walker throws with his gloves off is while Ward is staring right at him after chickening out.

Given all I hear from the die-hard NHL fans about fighting around here and how good it is for the NHL, I'm surprised more people aren't attacking Ward for trying to pick a fight with Cullen (who as Rutherford points out has been in like all of 2 fights his entire career) and then trying to back off as soon as Walker bails Cullen out...

I only saw the replay a few times and didn't see it happening live, so I havent' seen it in its entire context, but was Aaron Ward really trying to pick a fight with Matt Cullen? Sure, he was roughing him up a bit in front of the net and giving him the business, but that happens dozens of times in a game and rarely is someone trying to pick a fight. Kirk Maltby does it all the time and he's not trying to pick a fight. Ever.

I never saw any indication that Ward and Cullen were anywhere near to having a fight.

Sure, I have no doubt that Walker was standing up for Cullen. I guess there was some speculation (this could be true) that Ward gave Cullen an elbow to the head and Cullen has a history of concusion problems (similar to what Gary Roberts did to Johan Franzen during the finals last year when Franzen just returned from having concussion issues). If that's the face, again, I can see where Walker was standing up for Cullen. You also throw in all the hits and physical play the Bruins threw at the 'Canes all night long.

So, why Walker was justified for protecting Cullen and standing up for his teammates, he still dropped his gloves and sucker punched Ward right in the face. It's clear as day. I believe Walker that he thought he was about to get into an "altercation" or was already in an "altercation", but you can't just punch guy in his face barehanded before the guy drops his gloves.

If Walker had kept is gloves on and gave Ward a few shots in his face, there would likely either be a 2 or 4 minute roughing penalty for Walker and that's that. (Unless Ward dropped the gloves and there was a fight).

I like both Scott Walker and Aaron Ward, so I have no real horse in this race.

[Honolulu_Blue]

"A sucker punch is a blow which is made without warning or preparation on the part of the recipient and so is usually delivered from close in."

This sounds like a pretty accurate description of Walker's punch to Ward. Maybe he should have known Walker would drop his gloves and haul off and hit him.

I've watched a lot of hockey in my life and that doesn't happen too often. Typically, in cases where one guy drops the gloves and the other guy doesn't, the guy who drops the gloves grabs hold of the other guy or holds off throwing a punch until the other guy drops his gloves.

In a case where one guy drops his gloves, the other guy doesn't and then the first guy hauls off and hits the guy with his gloves one = sucker punch.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I don't think the concept of "third man in" applies unless the other two guys get a fighting major. It has to be third man in to an actual fight for the automatic penalty to kick in.

I remember one game where Steve Yzerman got thrown out for being the "third man in" in a "fight" between Johan Garpenlov and Pat Verbeek.

I didn't think it was the right call there either, since I don't think Johan Garpenlov ever dropped his gloves there either. I think he was just very confused at what was happening until Yzerman skated over and tried to pull Verbeek off him.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

"A sucker punch is a blow which is made without warning or preparation on the part of the recipient and so is usually delivered from close in."

This sounds like a pretty accurate description of Walker's punch to Ward. Maybe he should have known Walker would drop his gloves and haul off and hit him.

I've watched a lot of hockey in my laugh and that doesn't happen too often. Typically, in cases where one guy drops the gloves and the other guy doesn't, the guy who drops the gloves grabs hold of the other guy or holds off throwing a punch until the other guy drops his gloves.

In a case where one guy drops his gloves, the other guy doesn't and then the first guy hauls off and hits the guy with his gloves one = sucker punch.

I'm glad this was already posted before I needed to respond.

LOL at quoting wikipedia for definition of a sucker punch.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

In a case where one guy drops his gloves, the other guy doesn't and then the first guy hauls off and hits the guy with his gloves one = sucker punch.

Okay, so by that definition you're correct. Just surprised at that definition.

Nah, wait, never mind, I see the issue here. In hockey terms, when Ward doesn't drop his gloves, he shouldn't be hit, so even staring right at Walker he doesn't expect him to throw the punch, and that's what makes it a sucker. Okay, I get it.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Logan

LOL at quoting wikipedia for definition of a sucker punch.

Well, if hockey wants to apply some arcane rules to its fighting, expect some of us to ask occasionally for an explanation of them.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Well, if hockey wants to apply some arcane rules to its fighting, expect some of us to ask occasionally for an explanation of them.

It's not a "fight" when one guy looks like this:

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Well, if hockey wants to apply some arcane rules to its fighting, expect some of us to ask occasionally for an explanation of them.

I don't think it's that arcane really. I mean, Ward didn't even have his hands up. While I am not street fight expert, if two guys are just standing there having an argument or staring one another down and then all of sudden guy just hauls off and punches the other guy in the face, I think I'd call that a sucker punch.

Isn't that kind of what happened here?

Typically, when there is a "fight" where one player drops his gloves and the other doesn't (or hasn't) it's during a scrum and gloves-on punhces have been thrown, they are wrestling around and one guy decides it's time to escalate the matter. If that's what had happened between Ward and Cullen, there wouldn't even be a suspension.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Logan

It's not a "fight" when one guy looks like this:

Absolutely. That's a great shot that tells the entire story. Ward still even has his stick in his hand.

There is no way this is anything but a "sucker punch" under any definition, modern, arcane, hockey-wise or otherwise.

Look with your eyes, not your heart/gut, g-mack!

[Fidatelo]

I'm 50/50 on this sucker punch thing. Sure, Ward still has his stick and gloves on, but my question is why? I didn't see it live, but watching the replay a couple times it looked to me like he had about 3-4 seconds to recognize what was going on. He watches Walker drop his gloves, stands there with his dumb look on his face as he rears back, and then just takes a fist in the face.

So I agree that the pic above tells the story, I just don't know if the story is that Walker is a sucker-punching jerk or if Ward is total buffoon.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I don't think it's that arcane really. I mean, Ward didn't even have his hands up. While I am not street fight expert, if two guys are just standing there having an argument or staring one another down and then all of sudden guy just hauls off and punches the other guy in the face, I think I'd call that a sucker punch.

Isn't that kind of what happened here?

Typically, when there is a "fight" where one player drops his gloves and the other doesn't (or hasn't) it's during a scrum and gloves-on punhces have been thrown, they are wrestling around and one guy decides it's time to escalate the matter. If that's what had happened between Ward and Cullen, there wouldn't even be a suspension.

When I watch the video, I get the feeling Ward was getting worked up, then all of a sudden changes his mind. He starts the thing with Cullen, accepts the attack from Walker, then when he realises what he's gotten himself into he tries to back down, but by then it's too late.

Sure, take an isolated picture or a clip from the video and it looks really bad for Walker, but watch the entire sequence, or even the whole game (or series), and you'll see Boston slowly escalating their "chippiness" and seeing what they can get away with against Carolina, and all of a sudden someone from Carolina has had enough and Ward acts all shocked and tries to back down. That's a lot of Rutherford talks about in his interview, and a lot of what I see when I watch it.

None of that isn't to say that Walker didn't deserve the penalty or the fine. I'm just not finding that much sympathy for Ward.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

So I agree that the pic above tells the story, I just don't know if the story is that Walker is a sucker-punching jerk or if Ward is total buffoon.

I think the story is about half of each...

[Logan]

You must have some fucked up clocks in Canada. Watch it again. He dropped his glove between 18 and 19 seconds, and delivered the punch at 20 seconds. The next time, dropped at 24 seconds and the punch was delivered between 25 and 26 seconds - both of a SLOW MOTION video.

[Logan]

And allow me to get in the head of Walker for a second. Of course this is just my opinion, and doesn't mean that it's exactly what he was thinking...

If I think I'm in an "altercation" so much so that I'm delivering a straight right, when the guy drops I'm going to be delivering blows on the wall down and while he's turtling. My impression is it took that split second for Walker to realize he fucked up.

[gstelmack]

The 8 second mark of that video is pretty good too, where Ward takes a shot at Cullen's head to start the whole thing.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Logan

And allow me to get in the head of Walker for a second. Of course this is just my opinion, and doesn't mean that it's exactly what he was thinking...

If I think I'm in an "altercation" so much so that I'm delivering a straight right, when the guy drops I'm going to be delivering blows on the wall down and while he's turtling. My impression is it took that split second for Walker to realize he fucked up.

I'll grant you this part. I think he's in shock Ward didn't drop his gloves, too.

[Fidatelo]

From that video, Ward engages Walker, pushes away, which is where in every other fight I've witnessed both guys drop gloves and start throwing (or at least turtling or dancing), but in this case Ward just lets his hands fall to his sides.

Yes, maybe I was off on 3-4 seconds, but I've just never seen a guy go through all the normal pre-fight rituals and then just stand there like a dope as a fist flies at him. Even if he had decided after the shove that he didn't want to fight, why the hell didn't he try to dodge, duck, dip, dive, or dodge?

The whole thing just looks weird to me, it makes no sense.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

The 8 second mark of that video is pretty good too, where Ward takes a shot at Cullen's head to start the whole thing.

Inconsequential, as I don't think anyone is claiming Ward was standing around picking daises. But things like that happen during damn near every playoff game without being followed by anything close to what we see next.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Logan

Inconsequential, as I don't think anyone is claiming Ward was standing around picking daises. But things like that happen during damn near every playoff game without being followed by anything close to what we see next.

I agree with all of this.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

From that video, Ward engages Walker, pushes away, which is where in every other fight I've witnessed both guys drop gloves and start throwing (or at least turtling or dancing), but in this case Ward just lets his hands fall to his sides.

Yes, maybe I was off on 3-4 seconds, but I've just never seen a guy go through all the normal pre-fight rituals and then just stand there like a dope as a fist flies at him. Even if he had decided after the shove that he didn't want to fight, why the hell didn't he try to dodge, duck, dip, dive, or dodge?

The whole thing just looks weird to me, it makes no sense.

I've seen it happen many times before. Typically, what the guy in Ward's position is looking for/expecting is a glove to the face, most likely just a facewash of dirty, stinky leather or, at worst, a gloved punch to the chest/face, which will lead to the guy getting hit to throw his head back like he was punched (for real) and hopefully draw a penalty.

[Tekneek]

I like that Colin Campbell overturned it. I wish they would do away with the instigator penalty completely. It will put a stop to some of this nonsense.