The OFFICIAL 2008-09 NHL Thread

[Travis]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

In fairness, I did say "maybe" on Andre. But I also wouldn't expect him to be one of the first ten WR's that someone named either (in spite of leading the league in both yards and catches this season).

I'll stick with the Calvin comparison. Both are in their second seasons and garner headlines pretty much solely for their play on the field/ice rather than off the field. Both are playing for teams that have underachieved for quite some time in a market that still has a pretty passionate fan base even in tough times. Both had pretty impressive rookie seasons and can take over games at times and appear to be stepping into the elite levels at their respective positions during their second seasons.

Either way, to somebody brand new to the sport, they probably wouldn't hear much about either guy until seeing highlights of their games or checking the box scores, but after watching them play, it'd be that aspect of their personality they'd be left wanting more of, and if not, then football or hockey is likely not the sport for them to spend much time on.

Publicity wise, it's incumbent on the NHL to find a way to market those types of players, not somebody like Avery who has never scored more than 15 goals in a season or even reached 40 points. They've pushed Crosby at every corner, had Ovechkin become a sensation pretty much on his own, but they really need to find a way to make more faces recognizable, faces that represent the sport and not their own notoriety.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Travis

but they really need to find a way to make more faces recognizable, faces that represent the sport and not their own notoriety.

See, now we can agree on that by & large. But it's tougher to do when you're dealing with so many players who speak limited amounts of English and nearly a quarter of your teams are located outside the top 30 media markets.

edit to add: As for marketing Avery, the league doesn't have to, he's more than capable of handling that himself. Just stay the hell out of his way is all they have to do.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

edit to add: As for marketing Avery, the league doesn't have to, he's more than capable of handling that himself. Just stay the hell out of his way is all they have to do.

Yes, he can market himself, but we're discussing marketing the league, two totally different things as I tried to point out with the quote from Spector's blog. If he wants to market himself he can go the way of Pacman Jones and spend some time on TNA Wrestling if they're still looking for that kind of flavor.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Wait a minute. What happened to your whole "best players in the world" argument from earlier? What would ham & eggers even have to do with the situation ... unless you're facing becoming a semi-pro league.

The fact that there are ham & eggers at all is the point. Guys willing to eat Kraft Dinner 7 days a week to play a sport versus pushing paper behind a desk from 9-5, where they could make more money, tells me that guys making X millions of dollars aren't all of a sudden going to give it all up to flip burgers because they were forced to take ANOTHER pay cut. That's right...it's already happened...low and behold, we still have our NHL and still have the best players in the world.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

My point is, and has been throughout the thread, that it seems incredibly shortsighted for the league to suspend Avery for his comments when he's done more to generate media interest (and consequently an opportunity for interest among the general public) in a few days than 10 *Patrick Marleau's have done or will do in a lifetime.

How does a guy spewing crude comments (as characterized by just about everybody on the planet except for you) create good PR for a league that is fighting to retain/increase the size of their audience? They are trying attract more than just the "rubberneckers checking out the carnage" because the attention span of those folks is, well it's gone already, nevermind. Instead they are trying to attract kids and kids don't need to hear that garbage and nor should parents have to explain what the comment means.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

A league full of Avery's likely wouldn't work on a national scale & I'm not suggesting they would. The Malkin's/Crosby's/Ovechkin's provide the skill with flash to be the primary focal points. But those guys are considerably more marketable with a few Avery's in the mix for flavor. Heroes need villains to play off, how many people in recent memory have been better suited for the role than Avery?

If Avery adds to the marketability of the "stars" of the league then tell me if ticket sales have slumped or not when the Rangers have visited Pittsburgh or Washington so far this season. Without even looking, I'm going to say that, no, attendance hasn't changed one bit.

Avery plays for a last place team with, by your admission, who is one of the worst drawing road teams but yet you still insist that he adds value. I'm still not seeing it.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Look (and hopefully learn) from the example that NASCAR provides. A primarily regional sport that grew beyond anyone's wildest imagination in large part due to the personalities that emerged. And it seems no coincidence that they've hit a plateau as they (in part) legislated most of those personalities out of the business. Avery at least provides the potential for a watershed moment along the lines of the Allison/Yarborough infield fight at Daytona in '79. That was not the most dramatic moment in the sport nor the most exciting by a long shot ... but it was one of the most interesting & became one of the defining moments. There hasn't been a defining moment in hockey for the majority of the available North American audience since Al Michaels talked about miracles and even that has virtually no connection to the NHL.

Right off the bat I'll admit that my only exposure to NASCAR is Talledega Nights and I only saw that movie because Will Ferrell makes me laugh out loud. I don't know who Allison or Yarborough are nor could I name more than a handful of drivers and only because they appeared in Ferrell's movie. That's coming from a guy who's been living here for 10 years, likely the most "redneck" part of the country and I still haven't taken any sort of interest. I have friends who follow it, but they are few and far between. That isn't an attack on the sport by any means, I just don't have an interest in it.

Regardless of my ignorance about the past, present, and future of NASCAR, how is it that Avery is more likely than anybody else to give the US the dramatic defining moment that you apparently need the NHL to have? McSorley clubbing Brashear over the heard or the Bertuzzi BS weren't enough? I mean, if senseless violence is what you call drama and a defining moment, then open your eyes...there's been lots of it already. Instead, I think you'll find that the US rejects those moments and the league would love for neither of them to have ever happened because it only detracts from the game and it's success in some of the virgining US markets that Betteman so desperately wants.

Inticing kids and teenagers to watch the game is the only way to grow it in the States and it has worked, without exploiting the antics of guys like Avery, as evidenced by the increase in US-born NHL players, the US' success at the World Juniors in recent years, and the rise in popularity of NCAA hockey. Like it or not, the NHL IS invading the US and is there to stay.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

Regardless of my ignorance about the past, present, and future of NASCAR, how is it that Avery is more likely than anybody else to give the US the dramatic defining moment that you apparently need the NHL to have?

Because he is, likable or not, interesting. He has some recognizable form of personality, unlike the vast majority of players who come & go through the NHL and have for most of the 30+ years I've followed the league.

Let me pick on my own team for an example here, There's really no appreciable difference between the interest generated by Eric Perrin vs Kevin Doell vs Jason Krog vs Serge Aubin (trying to pick out our 3rd line centers, since Avery's contributions were dissed earlier). They're generic hockey players. The occasional Avery on the other hand, at least the guy is interesting, you pay attention to what he does.

Those young fans you mentioned? I see plenty of them at minor league games, hell they're often close to half the crowd. And what gets them buzzing? Flashy scorers and the fighters, often the latter more popular than the former, just as it's been for as long as I can remember. And if it's a player who shows some personality with some showboating as part of his fighting style, they'll blow the roof off for the guy. You think teenagers wouldn't have gotten at least a chuckle out of Avery's comment? If you believe that they're being attracted just by guys who can skate & have sound fundamentals then you're out of your tree.

[Travis]

If you honestly believe that promoting a third rate player who's best material is going after a player's girlfriend through the media (and as others have said, if he wasn't reprimanded after this, what would his next target have been if he carried on down that road), who would have then turtled like nobodies business when confronted on the ice is a better idea than marketing a young potentially elite talent like Patrick Kane, then I really have to question why you watch the sport to begin with.

You can talk about how English is a second language for some of their stars, but there are more than enough Canadian and American players around to market through ads and interviews and the sport has had a lot of personality in it and players (Roenick and Hull being two of the more recent ones) who were star calibre as well as "entertaining", but in a manner positive to the game. This isn't wrestling and they don't need trumped up bad guys for the fans to root against. The XFL didn't make that marketing plan work and it'll be a black day indeed if the NHL goes down that road.

Using your own example, that's where contraction may be the answer. Eliminate how many "meh" players each team have and you'll see more consistent exciting action on the ice. Ales Hemsky gives a pretty mundane interview, but he's one of those guys who'll make you hold your breath when the puck is on his stick. That's the sort of thing the league needs more of, not wondering when Avery will start doing jumping jacks in front of the crease.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Because he is, likable or not, interesting. He has some recognizable form of personality, unlike the vast majority of players who come & go through the NHL and have for most of the 30+ years I've followed the league.

Sorry, I guess we just aren't ever going to agree that Avery is interesting. In all honesty, after being subjected to Avery-mania during the Oilers/Stars game the other night I haven't watched a single highlight since...something I usually do at least a couple of times a day.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Let me pick on my own team for an example here, There's really no appreciable difference between the interest generated by Eric Perrin vs Kevin Doell vs Jason Krog vs Serge Aubin (trying to pick out our 3rd line centers, since Avery's contributions were dissed earlier). They're generic hockey players. The occasional Avery on the other hand, at least the guy is interesting, you pay attention to what he does.

You, yourself, have already said that NOBODY, in Dallas or otherwise, cares to pay to see what Avery does game in and game out.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Those young fans you mentioned? I see plenty of them at minor league games, hell they're often close to half the crowd. And what gets them buzzing? Flashy scorers and the fighters, often the latter more popular than the former, just as it's been for as long as I can remember. And if it's a player who shows some personality with some showboating as part of his fighting style, they'll blow the roof off for the guy. You think teenagers wouldn't have gotten at least a chuckle out of Avery's comment? If you believe that they're being attracted just by guys who can skate & have sound fundamentals then you're out of your tree.

Scorers and fighters...exactly, Avery is neither.

You're right, teenagers probably thought it hilarious and probably promptly starting joking with each other about it...so what, they find boogers interesting...what's your point?

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Because he is, likable or not, interesting. He has some recognizable form of personality, unlike the vast majority of players who come & go through the NHL and have for most of the 30+ years I've followed the league.

Dr Sak back me up on this-

Max Talbot is, after Crosby and Malkin, arguably the 3rd most popular Penguin. He is a "plugger", former 8th round pick. I'd gather though, outside of Pittsburgh, nobody who considers themself a casual fan knows who he is. Yet in Pittsburgh, he does more local commercials and spots than Crosby and Malkin. (So was Colby Armstrong before being shipped to Atlanta last year.)

He's not an asshole, and he's not generating headlines league wide, but I'll guarantee you, he's retained people to the sport, by, I guess, being interesting and promoting the team. No me me me shit. But his name has never been on ESPN (well, other than the goal to force triple OT in game 5 of the SCF).

TO, Pacman Jones and Rae Carruth were interesting too, since they made big news. I don't know if that means what they did helped the NFL.

NASCAR, I'd gather, has a smaller % following in Canada than the NHL does in the US. So, therefore I guess it's the equivlent of the WNBA.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Dola

Calling the people only into the fights "hockey fans" would be like calling the people only into the crashes "racing fans"

[RomaGoth]

I have been a hockey fan since I was a little kid. The problem with hockey, and indeed the NHL, is that it is not a TV friendly sport. Having grown up with it (Red Wings fan since before Yzerman was a rookie), I enjoy watching hockey on TV and can follow the flow and know where the puck is. People who are new to the sport, however, are not always so adept. They lose interest because they can't keep track of what is going on. Fox tried a bunch of nonsense with glowing pucks and all back when they carried the games, but it looked and was a third rate job to be sure. The NHL needs national exposure, and the Vs. network it not cutting it. They obviously need to market their game better, and they need players like Crosby, Zetterberg, Kane, and Ovechkin to do national commercials and promotions, not just local stuff. Even people who knew little about hockey knew who Wayne Gretzky was in the 90's. The NHL needs to do that again with the new generation of players, but they need to step it up a notch.

As for Avery, he is not even worth the argument going on here for the last page and a half. We all know is a gutless runt who would run if Phaneuf came after him. The NHL does not need the publicity he brings, it needs the opposite. For someone to say that he is giving the NHL nice media exposure is just uninformed. Look at the NFL. Is it a popular league? Yes, the most popular in the US. Unfortunately, it is gaining a reputation as a league of gun-toting juvenile delinquents. I doubt that is what Roger Goodell and the owners want to see. The NHL will not allow idiots like Avery to run rampant and ruin the sport.

[samifan24]

I thought I read somewhere online that the NHLPA is not happy with Versus and is actively lobbying for the league to return to the ESPN family of networks.

[johnnyshaka]

Can't get away from Avery-mania...watching the Oilers/Kings game and the commentators were talking about Kings' captain, Dustin Brown, who has a lisp, and how Avery, a former teammate, used to make fun of him right to his face.

Yup, he's interesting alright.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Dr Sak back me up on this-

Max Talbot is, after Crosby and Malkin, arguably the 3rd most popular Penguin.... But his name has never been on ESPN (well, other than the goal to force triple OT in game 5 of the SCF).

Uh, the only reason Max Talbot scored that goal was because he was sitting next to Gary Roberts right before he went out on the ice. So, in reality, it was Gary Roberts who scored that goal. Don't you watch "Coach's Corner"?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

Can't get away from Avery-mania...watching the Oilers/Kings game and the commentators were talking about Kings' captain, Dustin Brown, who has a lisp, and how Avery, a former teammate, used to make fun of him right to his face.

Yup, he's interesting alright.

Not surprisingly, there's been quite a bit written about him in Detroit since he came up with the Wings. Avery lived with Chris Chelios and his family during the lockout. Chelios kicked him out after three weeks because he turned the Chelios household "upside down."

The guy's just a prick. Plain and simple.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Uh, the only reason Max Talbot scored that goal was because he was sitting next to Gary Roberts right before he went out on the ice. So, in reality, it was Gary Roberts who scored that goal. Don't you watch "Coach's Corner"?

Actually, I was wrong earlier when I called him a plugger. He is a superstar. That is why he scored.

YouTube - Funny Pittsburgh Penguins Car Commercial, airing on FSN HD

YouTube - Funny Pittsburgh Penguin Car Commercial Part II

[Maple Leafs]

Fun random reminder of great moments in hockey history: Go to hockey-reference.com and type "chev" into the search engine.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Because he is, likable or not, interesting. He has some recognizable form of personality, unlike the vast majority of players who come & go through the NHL and have for most of the 30+ years I've followed the league.

Sure, he's recognizable thanks to his relentless self-promotion. That's the difference. He's not promoting the game or the league or his team. It's all about him.

I'm tired of hearing about how the NHL doesn't have interesting personalities. They have plenty. But it's tough to promote those guys when you have a third-liner stealing the attention with his ridiculous behaviour.

Here's an analogy: the NHL is like a school play, trying to show off the various talents of the kids. Maybe it's not the greatest production in the world, but it's not bad. And Sean Avery is the little brat who runs out to the front of the stage and starts doing a "look-at-me" dance to get the attention.

At first it might be cute. Then it's gets annoying. And eventually the school principal needs to yank the kid off the stage by his arm and tell him to shut up and settle down.

[NoSkillz]

A game between two cellar-dwellers got much more interesting from a Buffalo perspective, as the Sabres have called up 5'6" Nathan Gerbe to play in his first NHL game.

Gerbe starred for three years at Boston College and looks to be an offensive dynamo with a chip on his shoulder due to his lack of size. Looking forward to seeing him in action - hopefully Lindy puts him with Vanek or on one of the top two lines to show what he's capable of.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I'm tired of hearing about how the NHL doesn't have interesting personalities.

Obviously we disagree on that point, not that there aren't any but what I would call an insufficient number.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by NoSkillz

A game between two cellar-dwellers got much more interesting from a Buffalo perspective, as the Sabres have called up 5'6" Nathan Gerbe to play in his first NHL game.

Gerbe starred for three years at Boston College and looks to be an offensive dynamo with a chip on his shoulder due to his lack of size. Looking forward to seeing him in action - hopefully Lindy puts him with Vanek or on one of the top two lines to show what he's capable of.

Whoa...They have???????? Who's out?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Whoa...They have???????? Who's out?

ESPN - Buffalo Sabres call up Nathan Gerbe from AHL
To make room for Gerbe, the Sabres returned Mark Mancari to Portland. The rookie right wing had a goal and assist in seven games with Buffalo.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

ESPN - Buffalo Sabres call up Nathan Gerbe from AHL
To make room for Gerbe, the Sabres returned Mark Mancari to Portland. The rookie right wing had a goal and assist in seven games with Buffalo.

It's so interesting to watch him. A 5'6'' guy on the ice.

[Galaxy]

What a strange game. Hecht and LeCalivier just got into a fight (and not exactly sure why).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVh6qsfSOcA

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

It's so interesting to watch him. A 5'6'' guy on the ice.

If they wear dark jerseys it may be tough to differentiate him from the puck

edit to add: At 5'6" he becomes the league's shortest player, one inch smaller than Brian Gionta & Brett Sterling.

[NoSkillz]

I like him out there...quite a little sparkplug. Finishes his first game at +2 and the Sabres win.

Now if we could just unload Afinogenov...anyone willing to give us the proverbial bag of pucks for him?

[RomaGoth]

Datsyuk in the Shootout for the Wings' win. Even though I hate the Blackhawks, I love seeing the old rivalries and original six teams come to life again. Well, except for the Leafs.......

[Sublime 2]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If they wear dark jerseys it may be tough to differentiate him from the puck

edit to add: At 5'6" he becomes the league's shortest player, one inch smaller than Brian Gionta & Brett Sterling.

BC likes those short little pansies!

[Honolulu_Blue]

As if the piss poor record wasn't enough evidence to convince everyone that the new Tampa Bay ownership doesn't have a clue what they are doing.

Here is a list of their significant transactions since the start of June. Guys in bold have already come and gone with the team.

June 3 Fired John Tortorella
June 24 Named Barry Melrose head coach
June 30 Gary Roberts Signed as free agent
June 30 Ryan Malone Signed as free agent
June 30 Vaclav Prospal Signed as free agent
July 1 Radim Vrbata Signed as free agent
July 4 Matt Carle Traded from San Jose for Dan Boyle, Brad Lukowich
July 8 Mark Recchi Signed to one-year deal
July 11 Chris Gratton Signed to one-year deal
July 11 Resignation of GM Jay Feaster
August 29 Andrej Meszaros Traded from Ottawa for Filip Kuba
Oct 2 Michel Ouellet Sent to minors
Oct 6 Lukas Krajicek Traded from Vancouver for Michel Ouellet
Oct 21 Matt Pettinger Claimed off waivers
Oct 23 Marek Malik Signed as Free Agent
Nov 7 Matt Carle Traded to Philadelphia for Steve Eminger, Steve Downie
Nov 14 Fired Barry Melrose
Dec 8 Radim Vrbata Placed on waivers
Dec 8 Chris Gratton Placed on waivers

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.ph...evolving_door/

[Dr. Sak]

Thanks Tampa for Carle and for taking the headache Downie away.

[Galaxy]

Speaking of ownership, I guess Tom Golisano is in early talks to sell the Buffalo Sabres.

[johnnyshaka]

Sounds like Vrbata is going to head home (he's Czech) for the rest of the year...saving the Lighting his cap hit this year. Guess he's still under contract with the Lightning for the next two years, if he comes back to the NHL.

[Galaxy]

God I hate the love fest by the refs and VS with Cindy Crosby.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

God I hate the love fest by the refs and VS with Cindy Crosby.

Welcome to Hollywood!

[Fidatelo]

To all the fans of teams not from Pittsburgh, do yourselves a favor and take some advice from me: do not spend the next 10-15 years hating Sidney Crosby. I understand; he is kind of whiny; he gets favorable treatment; too much press; and he may likely end your team's chances at a Cup a few times. I hated a guy like that once, his name was Wayne Gretzky, and he made a point of saving his best performances for games against my beloved Jets.

It took the Jets leaving and Wayne to hit his twilight years for me to appreciate him for what he was, and to realise how much I missed out on because of my anger towards him.

I never saw all the beautiful plays; I just saw a scrawny little guy killing my team. Looking back, I really wish I'd have appreciated him for the spectacular talent he was, and relished those games against the Jets to see something so rare right in front of me.

Don't be like me with Wayne. Don't miss out on Sid.

[samifan24]

I don't really hate Crosby and I really, really like Ovechkin. I think both players and many of their fellow stars are great for the game.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by samifan24

I don't really hate Crosby and I really, really like Ovechkin. I think both players and many of their fellow stars are great for the game.

Meh, they're all in the lesser conference, so I don't pay much attention.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

To all the fans of teams not from Pittsburgh, do yourselves a favor and take some advice from me: do not spend the next 10-15 years hating Sidney Crosby. I understand; he is kind of whiny; he gets favorable treatment; too much press; and he may likely end your team's chances at a Cup a few times. I hated a guy like that once, his name was Wayne Gretzky, and he made a point of saving his best performances for games against my beloved Jets.

It took the Jets leaving and Wayne to hit his twilight years for me to appreciate him for what he was, and to realise how much I missed out on because of my anger towards him.

I never saw all the beautiful plays; I just saw a scrawny little guy killing my team. Looking back, I really wish I'd have appreciated him for the spectacular talent he was, and relished those games against the Jets to see something so rare right in front of me.

Don't be like me with Wayne. Don't miss out on Sid.

I still miss Wayne...and always will.

[Dr. Sak]

I appreciate Sid but can't stand him at the same time. Cant really root for a guy on a rival's team. I was the same way with Jagr.

[Logan]

I appreciate Crosby because it brings out the venom in Sak. You should see some of the PMs he sent me during last year's playoffs. Classic stuff that could possibility earn him a restraining order.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I appreciate Sid but can't stand him at the same time. Cant really root for a guy on a rival's team. I was the same way with Jagr.

Jagr was never on the same level of a Gretzky, Orr, or Crosby. Hating Jagr was, and still is, a perfectly legitimate emotion that I suspect few people would ever regret.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Jagr was never on the same level of a Gretzky, Orr, or Crosby. Hating Jagr was, and still is, a perfectly legitimate emotion that I suspect few people would ever regret.

I was referring more to Jagr playing for both the Rangers and Pens.

But seriously I understand what you mean. He has amazing vision and is so strong with the puck. I almost blame the NHL for the overadvertisement of Crosby.

Ovechkin on the other hand is my favorite non-Flyer. I love watching the guy.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I never saw all the beautiful plays; I just saw a scrawny little guy killing my team. Looking back, I really wish I'd have appreciated him for the spectacular talent he was, and relished those games against the Jets to see something so rare right in front of me.

Wait, so you had psychological problems seeing things that Wayne Gretzky did?

Are you Kerry Fraser?

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

I still miss Wayne...and always will.

Lemieux was a better player, and would have taken over all of Gretzky's records if not for injuries and cancer that limited his playing time. I never liked Gretzky because of his constant whining and lack of two-way play. He was a great offensive player to be sure, but in my mind Lemieux was better in every area of the game except for possibly passing....

[ISiddiqui]

That's like saying that Gale Sayers would have had better records than Walter Payton or Emmitt Smith if it wasn't for his bad knees. Longevity does count in greatness.

[bbor]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Wait, so you had psychological problems seeing things that Wayne Gretzky did?

Are you Kerry Fraser?

Classic!!

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Lemieux was a better player, and would have taken over all of Gretzky's records if not for injuries and cancer that limited his playing time. I never liked Gretzky because of his constant whining and lack of two-way play. He was a great offensive player to be sure, but in my mind Lemieux was better in every area of the game except for possibly passing....

I don't believe Lemieux was a better two way player. Lemieux was indeed more talented overall, and the injuries/cancer certainly held him back. That said, he also never had the work ethic or heart that Gretzky had. Perhaps he wouldn't have had the back issues if he had worked out a little more?

Anyways, bottom line is that if I desperately needed a guy to go out for one shift and score a goal, I'd throw Lemieux over the boards, but in almost any other situation I'd choose Gretzky.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Lemieux was a better player, and would have taken over all of Gretzky's records if not for injuries and cancer that limited his playing time. I never liked Gretzky because of his constant whining and lack of two-way play. He was a great offensive player to be sure, but in my mind Lemieux was better in every area of the game except for possibly passing....

Yeah, Lemieux never whined or complained...riiiiight.

Who has the most career shorthanded goals?? One hint...it isn't Mario.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Wait, so you had psychological problems seeing things that Wayne Gretzky did?

Are you Kerry Fraser?

Haha, no I'm not.


Or am I....

[Travis]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Lemieux was a better player, and would have taken over all of Gretzky's records if not for injuries and cancer that limited his playing time. I never liked Gretzky because of his constant whining and lack of two-way play. He was a great offensive player to be sure, but in my mind Lemieux was better in every area of the game except for possibly passing....

It's a conversation that will never go away because of Mario's health and backers on both sides can point to stats to try and back up their side of things, but in the end, both were phenomenal players.

I'm a Gretzky backer in that discussion and wish Mario had been healthier so that the verdict could have been answered on the ice. As it is I wish I had been old enough to really appreciate what I was getting to see rather than growing up believing that this was the "norm" for the sport.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

Yeah, Lemieux never whined or complained...riiiiight.

Who has the most career shorthanded goals?? One hint...it isn't Mario.

I never said that Lemieux didn't whine. All great players whine, that is one of the reasons they are great (or a sense of entitlement....). Gretzky also scored more points in his career than Lemieux, what is your point with shorthanded goals exactly? I was saying that I always liked Lemieux more than Gretzky as a player. Lemieux matured into a great team player later on in his career, and I never saw that from Gretzky. One thing that is certain, Gretzky played on much better teams than Lemieux did. Besides the two cups he won while Jagr was in Pittsburgh (92-93), the Pens were not a great team most years.