Werewolf XLVI - Sun And Shadow (Game Thread) - Game Over! Cultists win!

[Swaggs]

Alan, can you explain your color coding?

I feel like I should be a little more validated than the other members of my color group.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Maybe its a case of you not being around to discuss the points during the day and then the pile on for in my eyes no reason of me yesterday afternoon that makes a small thing turn into something bigger. Either way, I clearly stated all of the reasons why i felt your ideas were bad, every single one of them, and I gave you the decency to have time to respond to them all (I even stated so in my post) in an effort to draw discussion. You didn't come back to respond though until almost time to leave, dropped one post criticizing me for misrepresenting all of your ideas, not really being open to discussion and then you left. Which in effect did just what you accused me of.

Then several others jump on me without good reasons, made up stories about what I was saying, told half-truths and tried to pick me apart without even touching the things that I was arguing about. That seemed really fishy, very fishy in fact.

For whatever its worth, for my night action, I didn't do anything towards you. I'm open once again today for discussion just like I was yesterday, but the one thing I won't tolerate is people jumping on for no reason. Yes I get critical of others in these games, but I never insult, I never curse and I always keep it civil and you know that. I got critical yesterday of people jumping out of the woodwork yesterday to support me (for what I can tell is no good reason), and I got critical of a few of the people who jumped out to bash me (for what I can tell no good reason). So if you're around today we can debate your ideas more if you would like. I still think though that:

A) Giving the shadow a list of who has mundane abilities to target is bad which is why I cautioned against it when you asked people who had them
B) Purposely voting good guys to cleanse when it brings the shadow closer to the goal without trying to get a hit on a shadow player is also counter-productive. We wouldn't do it in other games, we shouldn't here.

Those were the points that I made yesterday and I still haven't seen anyone give me any reason to feel otherwise. And I still don't have any clue if you are a cultist corrupted by the shadow or not.

Alan, my schedule is pretty clear on days when I work both jobs. I leave in the morning, I don't get home until past midnight. The reason you don't see me posting most of the day is, of course, because I am at work. And the reason you don't see me arguing your points between 3 a.m. and 10 a.m. my time is because, of course, I am sleeping. I generally only have one chance in the morning of days like that to read through what was posted, respond if needed, and then make a decision on votes and even night actions (since I am home after the night phase is run). I'm sorry if that schedule doesn't leave room for a lengthy discussion of my plan, but, realy, my posts are quite long enough as it is. I am not one who spares the detail. So I can't think you're going to get much more from me than what you read in my posts about plans and such. I don't really leabe much to mystery there.

As to point A, my impression is that the mundane abilities are more like accentuators. They can help, but none are big abilities. They are relatively noncritical. I didn't think nor ever advocated that specific abilities be revealed. I was just wondering if we all had them. I was trying to see if it was something we needed to take into account, much as we have been trying to do with items and magical roles. Mundane abilities stay with the person even after being cleansed. I have the impression these are light strength abilities. If I am wrong, then yes, we shouldn't talk about them. But the nature of the game suggests they are noncritical, just aids to add to the game, IMO.

I also thought everyone would have one. It turns out that's not the case, so I am less willing now to advocate revealing that we have them.

For point B, my main issue with your response yesterday was your misleading assumption I was talking about some 4-5 guys being cleansed, which is silly. I would have hoped you would have seen there was no way I would support that. Clearly, my hopes were unanswered. The fact you jumped to that conclusion and blew it up so big seems out of character and suggests you had an ulterior motive to paint me as wolfish. I'm not saying you did, but you went to great lengths to establish that, and that's not what I said at all. It is quite simply completely misreading what I posted.

The only question is whether you did it on accident or on purpose. Then when I pointed out to you that you had misrepresented what I said, instead of reviewing my plan post and seeing your error, you put your head down like a bull and stuck to your guns, damn the evidence contrary to what you suggested. It is that bullheadedness and your description of my response as "backpedaling" that really ticked me off. As I said late last night, I don't have a problem if you don't like the plan. I do have a problem if you willfully appear to choose to misrepresent what I said. If you did that as some sort of game emchanic, fine. But if you did that because you chose to be stubborn and not review what I had posted, then shame on you.

Some points on the plan you also didn't seem to focus on. It was only a contingency plan, if we had no idea who Shadow was, meaning we were facing some random vote once more. It was only a plan presented to place value in what would otherwise be another Day One-like random vote. As it appears that enough information is coming out to give us some good candidates, I don't think we need to follow my plan.

As noted above, I only thought maybe one or at most two times would we want to consider using it in the manner I suggested

I never said we should all reveal our roles as part of this plan. I in fact have come out against mass-revealing roles. This is why I thought we could have a volunteer. Only each individual player will truly know if their role is noncritical and whether they have the type of analytical and debate skills that would be useful as a trusted player. It was never my intent to give the Shadow any more information by which to whittle down who has critical roles. One person revealing a noncritical role and then being cleansed isn't so big a hint, IMO, to who has the big roles, especially given what we would gain (a strong member of a growing COT).

This is not a game to compare to other wolf games. Would we follow a plan like this in other games? Of course not, because the person so targeted would be dead. Here, they are still here, contributing and via cleansing, in fact untouchable. Heck, they could even have their role restored by magic.

Long (long, long) story short, I don't advocate this plan now. But I feel you leaped on what you didn't like about it and then threw me under the bus and anyone who dared to agree with me. And I think you erred terribly in that. That sorta thinkign will get people lynched who are perfectly fine cultists. I just think yesterday you were being particularly defensive and bullheaded in a situation that didn't call for it. This is a unique game. We may need to consider unique ideas, and rejecting things out of hand without, IMO, properly considering them isn't going to help us.

This is the last I will post about the plan unless someone wants to actually do it (which, once again, I now do not support).

[hoopsguy]

VOTE NIGHTFALL

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

VOTE NIGHTFALL

i'm going to eat and ponder something in light of what has been brought to light in the past hour.

I'd rather not vote nightfall.

I have 2 options I want to do tonight but, limited input.

1. Give the potion of power to Schmidty

2. We hole up in the ritual room and I use my spiritmaster ability

3. ?

[DaddyTorgo]

alan...I like to be stingy. its in my nature. at least one other person knows my role and has said he is fine with me being trusted.

I don't want to reveal too much about anyone in a game with a conversion mechanism so strong. but I have alluded to my role several times if that helps

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Mustang

I'd rather not vote nightfall.

I have 2 options I want to do tonight but, limited input.

1. Give the potion of power to Schmidty

2. We hole up in the ritual room and I use my spiritmaster ability

3. ?

I still am nervous about you giving a potion that could be potion of darkness to someone with an important role.

[hoopsguy]

In terms of the "Rum plan" - if at some point we are deliberating on putting it into play I'll throw my name out there as someone who could probably have as much benefit cleansed as active.

I would encourage others to NOT volunteer. If we come across a day where we are stuck without any meaningful leads, then go ahead and consider me non-critical. Just know that you will have a 0% chance of getting a Shadow, based on my allegiance at the time I'm typing this post.

I'm putting this out there as a potential conversion defense - if the Shadow wants to convert me at some later point in the game they will have to factor this into their decision tree.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

alan...I like to be stingy. its in my nature. at least one other person knows my role and has said he is fine with me being trusted.

I don't want to reveal too much about anyone in a game with a conversion mechanism so strong. but I have alluded to my role several times if that helps

I haven't seen anyone vouch for you as far as I remember, and am basing any trust of you on your action today.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Mustang

2. We hole up in the ritual room and I use my spiritmaster ability

I'll put out there that I'm not so sure I want to do this. I think I'd rather have any shadows/sympathizers have to guess where I might be.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I still am nervous about you giving a potion that could be potion of darkness to someone with an important role.

It would take 2 nights to find that out minimum and 3 to use. I believe the researcher would need to steal it, then identify then dose it.

You might as well worry about anyone giving or using a potion then. At least I'm being upfront about it.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

In terms of the "Rum plan" - if at some point we are deliberating on putting it into play I'll throw my name out there as someone who could probably have as much benefit cleansed as active.

I would encourage others to NOT volunteer. If we come across a day where we are stuck without any meaningful leads, then go ahead and consider me non-critical. Just know that you will have a 0% chance of getting a Shadow, based on my allegiance at the time I'm typing this post.

I'm putting this out there as a potential conversion defense - if the Shadow wants to convert me at some later point in the game they will have to factor this into their decision tree.

Wouldn't we rather get a known Sun member than a cultist?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Long Post

Chief, I honestly feel that I was fair in my criticism of the plans and still feel strongly about the points I made. I don't see any need to go into them further now either, but did want to respond in that if you look back, I was open for discussion about the plan, and only ended up jumping to vote for you after I suddenly ended up in the vote lead based on people saying I was misconstruing your plan, which is something I did not do at all. I then voted for you based on self preservation more than anything at the time.

Like I showed last night, I much more suspected the people who jumped on me with what I felt not due cause than I did you, and went after them. I guessed wrongly however in that Tyrith was the one who piled on me that was bad it appears and I feel Barkeep is good, and Path appears to be good based on what Ntndeacon says.

When two people jump on me, vote for me with reasons that I don't feel were true (considering I hadn't voted for you and hadn't done much more than show my concerns about your plan and willingness to wait to talk to you more about it), of course it caused me to become defensive.

I don't believe at any time this morning before DaddyTorgo's reveal did I come out championing you as the person to lynch today, and the only thing close to that which I have done is state how important it is for DaddyTorgo to indeed vouch for you if he feels 100% that you are good (which he has done). I don't feel at all that I was stubborn about anything other than not being willing to go along with a plan that I felt was faulty.

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Ntndeacon, who did you use your magical role on night 1? Last night I assume was Path?

The first night I used it on you, but was told you slept through the night. it wouldn't let me pick up anything else.

[Swaggs]

I am out until about 8:00 PM.

See you all later.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Mustang

It would take 2 nights to find that out minimum and 3 to use. I believe the researcher would need to steal it, then identify then dose it.

You might as well worry about anyone giving or using a potion then. At least I'm being upfront about it.

Then my suggestion would be to give it to one of the people who are less important. Worst case, they get corrupted, best case they help us find a shadow player. I still am concerned about it being a potion of darkness

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Wouldn't we rather get a known Sun member than a cultist?

I agree, there have been two different people state they know who one of the sun members are. You and I think BrianD. Would much rather sacrifice one of them than a cultist.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Then my suggestion would be to give it to one of the people who are less important. Worst case, they get corrupted, best case they help us find a shadow player. I still am concerned about it being a potion of darkness

Give it to the alchemist and let them check it out. Then we can give it to Schmidty if we so desire.

[DaddyTorgo]

alan...I think swaggs feels okay but he isn't even the one I was talking about.

I have no fear of a full reveal if we feel that would be in all our best interest I will. but I am fairly certain our last shadow lies in your "red" group - CR. just playing the numbers. and I don't know if anyone can vouch for ntn to narrow that down more...

i don't know that my reveal would clear anyone new, just might make things more clear

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by path12

I'll put out there that I'm not so sure I want to do this. I think I'd rather have any shadows/sympathizers have to guess where I might be.

? Can you hide?

I'm not 100% sure that the Shadow has to say, Look in Alchemy for Mustang to convert and if I'm not there, it doesn't go through.

Thought they would just have to say convert Mustang then it goes off the percent chance.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by path12

Give it to the alchemist and let them check it out. Then we can give it to Schmidty if we so desire.

Is handing it over an option.

Dose is but, that I believe is feeding them the potion and not handing it to them.

[Mustang]

Also, SnDvls isn't proven so, I'm not just handing over it to an unproven person even if I could.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

alan...I think swaggs feels okay but he isn't even the one I was talking about.

I have no fear of a full reveal if we feel that would be in all our best interest I will. but I am fairly certain our last shadow lies in your "red" group - CR. just playing the numbers. and I don't know if anyone can vouch for ntn to narrow that down more...

i don't know that my reveal would clear anyone new, just might make things more clear

Can you rephrase this statement for me? Reading the bold part makes me feel that you are now accusing CR whom I thought you just vouched for...

[Alan T]

oh, I think you mean my red group minus CR.. ok gotcha

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Chief, I honestly feel that I was fair in my criticism of the plans and still feel strongly about the points I made. I don't see any need to go into them further now either, but did want to respond in that if you look back, I was open for discussion about the plan, and only ended up jumping to vote for you after I suddenly ended up in the vote lead based on people saying I was misconstruing your plan, which is something I did not do at all. I then voted for you based on self preservation more than anything at the time.

Like I showed last night, I much more suspected the people who jumped on me with what I felt not due cause than I did you, and went after them. I guessed wrongly however in that Tyrith was the one who piled on me that was bad it appears and I feel Barkeep is good, and Path appears to be good based on what Ntndeacon says.

When two people jump on me, vote for me with reasons that I don't feel were true (considering I hadn't voted for you and hadn't done much more than show my concerns about your plan and willingness to wait to talk to you more about it), of course it caused me to become defensive.

I don't believe at any time this morning before DaddyTorgo's reveal did I come out championing you as the person to lynch today, and the only thing close to that which I have done is state how important it is for DaddyTorgo to indeed vouch for you if he feels 100% that you are good (which he has done). I don't feel at all that I was stubborn about anything other than not being willing to go along with a plan that I felt was faulty.

Fair enough. I can understand self-preservation. I never thought you were in serious danger (you never had more than two votes if I recall right, and I had two votes right away), but I understand what happens to oneself is going to impact more than what is happening to others.

I still think you tend to lock into an idea and when someone debates you on it, you haven't been so willing to reconsider things. Perhaps that is a wrong impression, but it is a very strong one I have of you. To each their own.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

oh, I think you mean my red group minus CR.. ok gotcha

lol, that threw me, too.

[Alan T]

Well speaking of the red group, I went back and read some of the stuff ntn has said through yesterday and today.. I think I know what role he is claiming to have, and if he is a shadow player, he's being very consistant with his story. i don't see many holes in it. He was one of the ones I felt off about yesterday for magically thinking I was good, or at least vouching for my story that I put in no night 1 order.

I can't say he's not shadow, but I feel better about him than other people in the red group right now...

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Then my suggestion would be to give it to one of the people who are less important. Worst case, they get corrupted, best case they help us find a shadow player. I still am concerned about it being a potion of darkness

And if it is the potion of power it is wasted.

Nice

What sense does that make?

[Chief Rum]

V OTE TYRITH

VOTE PUNISHMENT

Is there a need to go into reasons why? Way to go, DT.

I will be leaving now, but I will return later today before the deadline (about 2-3 hours from now). I don't work both jobs today like I did Monday-Tuesday.

[Mr. Wednesday]

The reason for my drive-by vote is slightly complicated. I got up later than I wanted to this morning, but I still wanted to check in on things before going to school. I saw no reason to hold back on the vote given the information presented.

In addition to sleeping in the chamber of rest last night, I attempted to search the Alchemy Closet, but I didn't find anything.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, I think our chances of closing this out tonight are pretty good. We've been extremely lucky in not only picking off two Shadow in two days, but apparently blocking a conversion attempt last night as well.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Also, SnDvls isn't proven so, I'm not just handing over it to an unproven person even if I could.

that's good because I can't do jack with it....give it to the role that can.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Mustang

And if it is the potion of power it is wasted.

Nice

What sense does that make?

Well I stated yesterday my opinion was the potion of power if someone had one should go to Kwhit. It would then give us our ritualist back, and more importantly someone who we know 100% is clear who can protect us.

I do concede that its debatable that it might be better to give it to someone who can "track down evil" but I'm thinking from a risk/reward standpoint. The only thing I wonder is what a potion of darkness would do to someone who is cleansed thus still making me afraid to use it without validation of what it is.

I just think we have the upper hand right now, we don't need to hit a home run, we need to make sure we don't give up runs. I would rather play cautious and careful then be risky and suddenly end up with 2-3 shadow players and no one cleared again.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I just think we have the upper hand right now, we don't need to hit a home run, we need to make sure we don't give up runs. I would rather play cautious and careful then be risky and suddenly end up with 2-3 shadow players and no one cleared again.

Understandable, which is why I suggested also holing up in the ritual room and using my ability which should offer some level of protection for at least 2 nights which will afford people with other abilities to do their work. After 2 nights, I'm spent and you guys can cleanse me all you want.

Should be pretty darn easy to verify if everyone is in the same room and I use the spirit ability. If I don't or can't, not like the real spirit guy can't step up.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Well I stated yesterday my opinion was the potion of power if someone had one should go to Kwhit. It would then give us our ritualist back, and more importantly someone who we know 100% is clear who can protect us.

I do concede that its debatable that it might be better to give it to someone who can "track down evil" but I'm thinking from a risk/reward standpoint. The only thing I wonder is what a potion of darkness would do to someone who is cleansed thus still making me afraid to use it without validation of what it is.

I just think we have the upper hand right now, we don't need to hit a home run, we need to make sure we don't give up runs. I would rather play cautious and careful then be risky and suddenly end up with 2-3 shadow players and no one cleared again.

this is the best idea I've heard of yet. Mustang give the potion as a dose to either ITC or Kwhit. I honestly don't want anyone to know as then it doesn't give the shadow a 100% shot at one of them again only 50/50 then we'll know if it's cursed or not. We'll even know by the shadow count we get to start the day.

[Alan T]

7) Kwhit - Cleansed
14) ImTheCrew - Cleansed

4) Joe - claims Researcher (possibly validated based on finding an item?)
8) Lathum - Claims Warlock (proven by sleeping Hoops night 1 and Tyrith last night)
10) Schmidty - Claims Augur (proven with the info on Kwhit)
17) Alan T - Claims Theurgist (proven by action on Barkeep)

6) Barkeep49 - Blocked by Alan last night, couldn't have attempted conversion on swaggs
9) Chief Rum - DaddyTorgo vouches for him.
12) hoopsguy - Vouched as having role by Swaggs. Slept night 1 so couldn't convert Kwhit
16) Path12 - Vouched for by ntndeacon as having some role?

2) BrianD - First to out Kwhit
13) DaddyTorgo - Outed Tyrith

1) Mustang - Claims Spiritmaster (unproven)
3) ntndeacon - Given hints to role (unproven)
5) Swaggs - claims to have Sun Amulet = Wizard? (unproven)
18) SnDvls - Claims Alchemist (unproven)


11) Mr. Wednesday -
15) Tyrith - EVIL!

So breaking down the risk group by group.
Joe, Schmidty and Lathum have proven their ability without doubt I feel. I proved mine, but Barkeep says he can't vouch for it due to what he used last night.

Barkeep I feel pretty good about is not shadow. DaddyTorgo says the same about Chief Rum, Ntndeacon says the same about Path. Hoopsguy has had people do various interaction wit him, but nothing really standing out that helps "clear him" in Swaggs or anyone else's mind yet.

Both BrianD and DaddyTorgo appear to have the village's best interest in mind with their actions, but neither have been vouched for by anyone thus far and arguably could have given up a teammate to gain trust.

I feel ok with Ntn and Swaggs in this group right now. All four have claimed roles, but no one can vouch for these roles. Mustang and Sndvls seem a little more iffy right now in this group to me, but it will be hard to validate anyone here without more information.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm not going to argue for Brian and I, cuz we're not in danger or anything, but man we'd be wolves with some huge balls if we gave up converts on the first 2 days. it'd be ridiculously gutsy.

i trust brian. i believe he trusts me as well.

and yes, i meant "the red group minus chief rum"

[DaddyTorgo]

does anyone have any thoughts as to who i should look at tonight to verify their role? someone who will be using their ability, preferably in the dark green group? mustang? ntn? swaggus? sndvls?

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

this is the best idea I've heard of yet. Mustang give the potion as a dose to either ITC or Kwhit. I honestly don't want anyone to know as then it doesn't give the shadow a 100% shot at one of them again only 50/50 then we'll know if it's cursed or not. We'll even know by the shadow count we get to start the day.

For a guy that doesn't want the Shadow numbers to swell, this seems like a bad idea.

So, I give ITC or KWhit the potion, It IS the potion of darkness, then the Shadows get a conversion that night and you have 3 total. Then I'm in the same boat because I have to attempt to convince someone that KWhit or ITC is now a Shadow when you don't trust me in the first place????

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Mustang

For a guy that doesn't want the Shadow numbers to swell, this seems like a bad idea.

So, I give ITC or KWhit the potion, It IS the potion of darkness, then the Shadows get a conversion that night and you have 3 total. Then I'm in the same boat because I have to attempt to convince someone that KWhit or ITC is now a Shadow when you don't trust me in the first place????

If you feel that way, then maybe the safe play is to just hold it for a bit longer. Im not sure how the researcher role works, but if he searches for a potion of darkness would he find it in your posession if it really was one? The rules seem to indicate He has some way of doing so.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

does anyone have any thoughts as to who i should look at tonight to verify their role? someone who will be using their ability, preferably in the dark green group? mustang? ntn? swaggus? sndvls?

you can look at me, but I won't be using my ability tonight as I already have made my 2nd potion and I don't plan on drinking this one yet.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Mustang

For a guy that doesn't want the Shadow numbers to swell, this seems like a bad idea.

So, I give ITC or KWhit the potion, It IS the potion of darkness, then the Shadows get a conversion that night and you have 3 total. Then I'm in the same boat because I have to attempt to convince someone that KWhit or ITC is now a Shadow when you don't trust me in the first place????

I would think doing this would bring trust wouldn't you? You seem hell bent on not earning other's trust, but to do your own agenda which could be more harmful to the cult than our other ideas.

[ntndeacon]

I will be using my role tonight. as I have each night.

[Joe]

I would not be able to tell if it was a potion of darkness unless I had it. I could search for a potion, but not know if it was dark. I could try to steal it and then identify it, but I think usage would come before steals in the night.

[Lathum]

I am out until after the deadline. I plan on hexing Mr. Wednesday tonight unless something changes

[path12]

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

I will be using my role tonight. as I have each night.

As will I.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

I would think doing this would bring trust wouldn't you? You seem hell bent on not earning other's trust, but to do your own agenda which could be more harmful to the cult than our other ideas.

Hell bent on not earning others trust when I've given my role and also the potion that I've found???

If I had my own agenda, I wouldn't have said squat about the potion.

[Mustang]

I'll be in the ritual room.

I'll be using my role.

Anyone wants to go to the ritual room so be it..

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Alan T

If you feel that way, then maybe the safe play is to just hold it for a bit longer. Im not sure how the researcher role works, but if he searches for a potion of darkness would he find it in your posession if it really was one? The rules seem to indicate He has some way of doing so.

I'm not sure. Technically, I believe a potion would be seen as named until used.

Guess Peregrine would need to make the call on this one. At this point, I will be holding onto it and just using my role in the ritual room.

[Tyrith]

/me stops caring

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Tyrith

/me stops caring

Look at the bright side... you'll be joining us on the winning side.