The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It only infringes on your happiness if you are forced to do them. No one is forcing you to have gay sex. No one is forcing you to think about them either. You are the one who is infringing on your pursuit of happniess by allowing it to have a negative impact on you.

Well said. An important point.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

So DT is just saying that we should all obey the law? Why didn't he just say so?

No, it's about doing what's objectively right. For instance, some states have laws that outlaw oral sex (and the bible thumpers would like to extend these). Objectively that's wrong, wrong, wrong and I'm sure and right-thinking person (or at least someone without scripture-derived self-hating issues) can see this.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It only infringes on your happiness if you are forced to do them. No one is forcing you to have gay sex. No one is forcing you to think about them either. You are the one who is infringing on your pursuit of happniess by allowing it to have a negative impact on you.

By that standard then, DT should not be bothered by religious fundamentalists. After all, I doubt DT is forced to attend their religious services or take an oath professing belief in a fundamentalist religion. No one is forcing DT to think about fundamentalists. He's the one infringing on his pursuit of happiness by allowing them to have a negative impact on him.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

By that standard then, DT should not be bothered by religious fundamentalists. After all, I doubt DT is forced to attend their religious services or take an oath professing belief in a fundamentalist religion. No one is forcing DT to think about fundamentalists. He's the one infringing on his pursuit of happiness by allowing them to have a negative impact on him.

You are correct if we are strictly talking about someone's rights being violated. I don't think DT's rights have been violated because someone else chooses to be a Christian.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You are correct if we are strictly talking about someone's rights being violated. I don't think DT's rights have been violated because someone else chooses to be a Christian.

absolutely not violated. but the problem is that a significant percentage of them don't stop at just professing those beliefs to each other and trying to expand their services. they try to have their moral beliefs written into law and deny the rights of others.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

No, it's about doing what's objectively right. For instance, some states have laws that outlaw oral sex (and the bible thumpers would like to extend these). Objectively that's wrong, wrong, wrong and I'm sure and right-thinking person (or at least someone without scripture-derived self-hating issues) can see this.

LOL. You lost me at "objectively right". That's what this entire argument is about... the fact that you have roughly equal opinions on many issues in which there is no agreement on what is "objectively right".

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

LOL. You lost me at "objectively right". That's what this entire argument is about... the fact that you have roughly equal opinions on many issues in which there is no agreement on what is "objectively right".

so you're not a fan of blowjobs hmm?

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

absolutely not violated. but the problem is that a significant percentage of them don't stop at just professing those beliefs to each other and trying to expand their services. they try to have their moral beliefs written into law and deny the rights of others.

So for the fundies it's just a matter of "belief", but for the people you support it's a matter of "rights".

I'm starting to see why you have such a problem with democracy.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

absolutely not violated. but the problem is that they don't stop at just professing those beliefs to each other and trying to expand their services. they try to have their moral beliefs written into law and deny the rights of others.

The constitution allows that at the state level (in fact, its a right), unless we're talking about a individual constitutional right - and the identification of those is constantly up for debate.

I guess all I'm trying to say that people think differently, many prefer a different kind of government that the constitution, at the outset, certainly allowed. I can certainly understand the resentment then, when people (practically "foreigners", from the perspective of some in the south), decide that government is actually supposed to be this way, and if you don't change to be like us you're wrong.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

they try to have their moral beliefs written into law and deny the rights of others.

Don't people have a right to do that, at least to some degree?

That's a REALLY important right to some people.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

So for the fundies it's just a matter of "belief", but for the people you support it's a matter of "rights".

I'm starting to see why you have such a problem with democracy.

"Gays are evil and should be denied equal treatment" = belief

"Gay couples living together function financially in the same way as straight couples living together" = fact

ergo it is within their rights to be treated as such

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

so you're not a fan of blowjobs hmm?

I'm a fan of not getting bogged down in strawman arguments, but I'll tell you what... if they start rounding up people getting/giving oral sex in private, I'll gladly participate (on the receiving end, that is) in a "blow-in" on the steps of the Jefferson Memorial.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

"Gays are evil" = belief

"Gay couples living together function financially in the same way as straight couples living together" = fact

ergo it is within their rights to be treated as such

All of that is just a belief (not a religious belief, but a belief).

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

All of that is just a belief (not a religious belief, but a belief).

disagree.

i'm not about to spend my workday going and finding studies and numbers to support it, but from a common sense standpoint, the financial arrangement between two gay men living together under the same roof is independent of where they choose to stick their dicks at night. they share household expenses in the same way as any other couple.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

"Gays are evil" = belief

"Gay couples living together function financially in the same way as straight couples living together" = fact

ergo it is within their rights to be treated as such

I hate to tell you this, DT, but I know plenty of people that you'd consider to be fundamentalist who don't view gay people as evil. In fact, most Christians I know view all of us to be sinners. Now you may be thinking of the Fred Phelps of the world, but if you're honestly worried about the "God Hates Fags" brigade gaining political power I'd tell you to quit being paranoid. I don't even think they've been able to take over Topeka, much less Kansas, much less the United States.

Perhaps the first step towards real tolerance would be viewing your ideological opponents as real people, not cartoon caricatures.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

"Gays are evil and should be denied equal treatment" = belief

"Gay couples living together function financially in the same way as straight couples living together" = fact

ergo it is within their rights to be treated as such

Both of those are still beliefs and their rights have nothing to do with what people believe morally.

All that matters is that as long as they are a United States citizen, they are given equal rights that every other United States citizen receives. Regardless of whether people think they are evil or wonderful.

[molson]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Perhaps the first step towards real tolerance would be viewing your ideological opponents as real people, not cartoon caricatures.

That's really good advice for the closed-minded people on both sides of this.

I can't believe that "tolerant liberals" don't see what they sound like when they start ranting against things they don't agree with.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

I hate to tell you this, DT, but I know plenty of people that you'd consider to be fundamentalist who don't view gay people as evil. In fact, most Christians I know view all of us to be sinners. Now you may be thinking of the Fred Phelps of the world, but if you're honestly worried about the "God Hates Fags" brigade gaining political power I'd tell you to quit being paranoid. I don't even think they've been able to take over Topeka, much less Kansas, much less the United States.

Perhaps the first step towards real tolerance would be viewing your ideological opponents as real people, not cartoon caricatures.

i went with the cartoon caricature because i'm engaged in an internet argument/discussion, and that is the generally accepted thing to do in such discussions in order that one does not spend excess time in addressing all the nuances of a particular position. A degree of intellectual laziness, I concede that, but I'm also trying to do a little work while I'm here today.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

I hate to tell you this, DT, but I know plenty of people that you'd consider to be fundamentalist who don't view gay people as evil. In fact, most Christians I know view all of us to be sinners. Now you may be thinking of the Fred Phelps of the world, but if you're honestly worried about the "God Hates Fags" brigade gaining political power I'd tell you to quit being paranoid. I don't even think they've been able to take over Topeka, much less Kansas, much less the United States.

Perhaps the first step towards real tolerance would be viewing your ideological opponents as real people, not cartoon caricatures.

I think you underestimate the anti-gay rhetoric. To just put it on the lap of Fred Phelps is not correct.

Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Ted Haggard carried the torch against homosexuality throughout their lives. They were not small ministers either, they had/have had power over millions of people. They are not secluded to a small town. These people not only had access to the homes of millions, but also were frequently meeting with the President to discuss issues.

Fred Phelps is certainly the extreme and so overboard that it's more humorous than evil. But anti-gay sentiment is very mainstream and those names are just a few examples of it.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by molson

That's really good advice for the closed-minded people on both sides of this.

I can't believe that "tolerant liberals" don't see what they sound like when they start ranting against things they don't agree with.

Just as I'm sure others can't believe that "intolerant conservatives" don't see what they sound like when they start ranting against things they don't agree with.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

All that matters is that as long as they are a United States citizen, they are given equal rights that every other United States citizen receives.

Except the right to elect the government you want, if that government conflicts with someone else's idea of what the constitution means.

[molson]

Originally Posted by cartman

Just as I'm sure others can't believe that "intolerant conservatives" don't see what they sound like when they start ranting against things they don't agree with.

Yup, they both sound the same to me.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cartman

Just as I'm sure others can't believe that "intolerant conservatives" don't see what they sound like when they start ranting against things they don't agree with.

{scratches head}

I'm pretty sure I'm included in that group somewhere but I'm also pretty sure I have a reasonable idea of how it's perceived by the general groups within the audience as well.

The difference is that I make no false pretense about some imaginary tolerance (see sig file below)

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

LOL. You lost me at "objectively right". That's what this entire argument is about... the fact that you have roughly equal opinions on many issues in which there is no agreement on what is "objectively right".

Ah, but a viewpoint that is "objectively right" doesn't need people to agree with it, because it's objectively right.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think you underestimate the anti-gay rhetoric. To just put it on the lap of Fred Phelps is not correct.

Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Ted Haggard carried the torch against homosexuality throughout their lives. They were not small ministers either, they had/have had power over millions of people. They are not secluded to a small town. These people not only had access to the homes of millions, but also were frequently meeting with the President to discuss issues.

Fred Phelps is certainly the extreme and so overboard that it's more humorous than evil. But anti-gay sentiment is very mainstream and those names are just a few examples of it.

And despite these frequent meetings, it's still against the law to commit a violent crime against a homosexual, while it's perfectly okay for two consenting adults to put their genitals in consenting adult partner of their choice. Are you complaining about the results that these preachers have had, or their access? Because once again it sounds like the complaint is over the freedom of speech and religion rather than any results they've been able to obtain.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

And despite these frequent meetings, it's still against the law to commit a violent crime against a homosexual, while it's perfectly okay for two consenting adults to put their genitals in consenting adult partner of their choice. Are you complaining about the results that these preachers have had, or their access? Because once again it sounds like the complaint is over the freedom of speech and religion rather than any results they've been able to obtain.

but they're not given the rest of rights that adult heterosexual partners have, as far as financial rights, medical rights, etc

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

it's still against the law to commit a violent crime against a homosexual

Er, I'm pretty sure it's against the law to commit a violent crime against anyone. Even against the law to commit a crime.

Unless you're getting all meta on me (I won't blame you - it's a Friday).

Edit, sort of like how getting sick can kill you.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

while it's perfectly okay for two consenting adults to put their genitals in consenting adult partner of their choice.

Only recently though. Lawrence v. Texas was decided in 2003, IIRC.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Only recently though. Lawrence v. Texas was decided in 2003, IIRC.

Yep, right smack dab in the middle of 8 years of our "conservative authoritarianism"... which kinda makes my point.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Yep, right smack dab in the middle of 8 years of our "conservative authoritarianism"... which kinda makes my point.

I didn't realize federal judges were elected officials.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by molson

But the constitution doesn't contain a right to say, gay marriage.

But it certainly does appear to give states a right to determine that issue on their own.

So when "rights" people feel they have conflict - who's being intolerant?

This is a pretty silly argument. Yes, states have the right to determine their marriage laws, but they don't have a right to determine them in a way that violates the 14th Amendment. See: Loving v. Virginia.

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

This is a pretty silly argument. Yes, states have the right to determine their marriage laws, but they don't have a right to determine them in a way that violates the 14th Amendment. See: Loving v. Virginia.

I know the caselaw, I've just saying I understand the resentment of people when the constitution is interpreted to impose one's moral beliefs on the rest of the country.

I mean, there's no limit to that. The constitution is meaningless. It will be interpreted however people want to leave, or not to live.

The Bush administration thought the constitution gave it the power to do all sorts of crazy stuff (or really, they didn't care what the constitution actually said, they just wanted to do what they wanted and then tried to justify it with the constitution). That's kind of the mirror image of overly expansive federal rights that are made up as we go. We decide gay sex is OK, so we decide the constitution says that too, and thus everyone is bound by our opinion.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Yep, right smack dab in the middle of 8 years of our "conservative authoritarianism"... which kinda makes my point.

Not really. The dissenters in the 6-3 decision (Scalia, Rhenquist & Thomas, dissenting opinion authored by Scalia) voted to uphold mainly on the basis of stare decisis (i.e. confirming Bowers), noting that the law itself was, in Thomas' words "uncommonly silly". When even Scalia & Thomas can't bring themselves to say that sodomy should be outlawed, I think it's safe to say that sodomy is "objectively right".

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

I still see conservatives try to claim the Matthew Shepard murder for instance wasn't based on gay bashing but was a simply robbery or a drug deal gone bad. I still see gay panic being used as a defense and it even working at times. So yes, it's against the law to commit a violent crime against a homosexual, but much like a woman better make sure she wasn't wearing a short skirt when she was raped, said gay person better hope that the perp doesn't get a sympathetic jury.

And liberals love to cry "hate crime" just as often the other way. Or "racism" at the drop of a hat.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Not really. The dissenters in the 6-3 decision (Scalia, Rhenquist & Thomas, dissenting opinion authored by Scalia) voted to uphold mainly on the basis of stare decisis (i.e. confirming Bowers), noting that the law itself was, in Thomas' words "uncommonly silly". When even Scalia & Thomas can't bring themselves to say that sodomy should be outlawed, I think it's safe to say that sodomy is "objectively right".

I like cranky, sarcastic Flere.

[molson]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Not really. The dissenters in the 6-3 decision (Scalia, Rhenquist & Thomas, dissenting opinion authored by Scalia) voted to uphold mainly on the basis of stare decisis (i.e. confirming Bowers), noting that the law itself was, in Thomas' words "uncommonly silly". When even Scalia & Thomas can't bring themselves to say that sodomy should be outlawed, I think it's safe to say that sodomy is "objectively right".

The Supreme Court deciding things based on what they personally feel is "objectively right" is great if you happen to agree with them, but pretty damn scary if you don't. (Remember Bush v. Gore?)

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Even under the wacky assumption that's true, crying hate crime or racism doesn't mean a rapist or a murderer goes free by appealing to the bigotry of the jury. But hey, if you wanna' throw some false equivalence on to the fire to feel better and bipartisan, go ahead.

It's good for getting police officers convicted to appease the masses, it's good for obstructing debate on an issue or heading off an investigation, it's good for getting folks fired, it's good for getting politicians kicked out of office or blocking their election. But feel free to maintain your righteous moral highground...

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by molson

The Supreme Court deciding things based on what they personally feel is "objectively right" is great if you happen to agree with them, but pretty damn scary if you don't. (Remember Bush v. Gore?)

That's not what I was suggesting, though.

No one in Lawrence based their decision on whether or not sodomy was "objectively right". The case revolved around whether or not states have the right to criminalize it.

My point was that when even the dissenters make special mention that they're not against sodomy, per se, instead basing their dissent on those damn liberal judges using stare decisis only when it pleases them, I think we can safely assume that sodomy, even when mistakenly criminalized by stupid states, is "objectively right".

Now if you want to argue that, then go ahead, but bear in mind you'll be arguing that, amongst other things, blowjobs are not "objectively right" and you'll (rightly) be a pariah.

Don't be a pariah.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by molson

(Remember Bush v. Gore?)

You're trying to trip me up, but it won't work.

Objectively, it was the correct decision as much as, subjectively, I disliked the decision. Al Gore lost the election long before the Florida voting system screwed things up.

The only issue I have with Bush vs. Gore was that SCOTUS didn't issue a finding to also light Katherine Harris on fire.

[molson]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

That's not what I was suggesting, though.

No one in Lawrence based their decision on whether or not sodomy was "objectively right". The case revolved around whether or not states have the right to criminalize it.

That's what they have to say in the opinions, but no, the real driving force behind this decision was our society's more progressive ideas about sexual preference (and sex in general), otherwise, they could have decided this issue decades earlier or more.

But by the time of the case, 36 states had repealed their sodomy laws, and the other states rarely or never enforced the ones they had on the books. Seems like enough support for a constitutional amendment.

[molson]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Objectively, it was the correct decision as much as, subjectively, I disliked the decision. Al Gore lost the election long before the Florida voting system screwed things up.

I think that's an unusually enlightened view. Bill Clinton called it "one of the worst decisions the Supreme Court ever made". I don't think he was talking about the legal analysis.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by cartman

I didn't realize federal judges were elected officials.

I didn't realize truly authoritarian regimes paid much attention to judicial decisions they disagree with.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Not really. The dissenters in the 6-3 decision (Scalia, Rhenquist & Thomas, dissenting opinion authored by Scalia) voted to uphold mainly on the basis of stare decisis (i.e. confirming Bowers), noting that the law itself was, in Thomas' words "uncommonly silly". When even Scalia & Thomas can't bring themselves to say that sodomy should be outlawed, I think it's safe to say that sodomy is "objectively right".

They also noted the Court sidestepped the "central legal conclusion" of Bowers and did not find there to be a "fundamental right" to buttsex. So your subjective reading of the dissenting opinion does not lead to the conclusion that sodomy is objectively right.

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm curious about why the court should have any say in whether there's a fundamental legal right to any type of sex between two consenting adults? I mean what's not...are they going to tell people they can't have furrysex? where would that leave all the furries? who are they all hurting as consenting adults?

[CamEdwards]

dola-

BTW, I don't really care about oral sex, or buttsex, or your best friend Jimmy wanting to toss your salad. In fact, the more specific you get, the more it speaks to my original point that there's no easy way to divvy up this country along red state/blue state lines. Molson pointed out that by the time Lawrence v. Texas came around, some 36 states had taken anti-sodomy laws off the books. I don't think, however, that the people in all 36 of those states would vote in favor of legalizing gay marriage. So where would DT put those states? Are they in the union because they don't legally ban sodomy, or are they out of the union because they haven't legalized gay marriage?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

I didn't realize truly authoritarian regimes paid much attention to judicial decisions they disagree with.

It was right around that time that 'judicial activism' became a very popular term, and the topic of impeaching judges was brought up in direct reference to this case.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i'm curious about why the court should have any say in whether there's a fundamental legal right to any type of sex between two consenting adults? I mean what's not...are they going to tell people they can't have furrysex? where would that leave all the furries? who are they all hurting as consenting adults?

If not the courts, who will protect those poor horny furries when PETA convinces Vermont to ban sex while wearing animal fur? Who else would be able to determine such a law unconstitutional?

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by cartman

It was right around that time that 'judicial activism' became a very popular term, and the topic of impeaching judges was brought up in direct reference to this case.

Oh yes, I forgot the caveat that when it comes to conservative authoritarianism, you don't actually need evidence of despotic action. An op/ed in Newsmax or World Net Daily, or the opinions of a non-governmental citizens group will suffice, even if no debate about impeaching a justice is ever held.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

dola-

BTW, I don't really care about oral sex, or buttsex, or your best friend Jimmy wanting to toss your salad. In fact, the more specific you get, the more it speaks to my original point that there's no easy way to divvy up this country along red state/blue state lines. Molson pointed out that by the time Lawrence v. Texas came around, some 36 states had taken anti-sodomy laws off the books. I don't think, however, that the people in all 36 of those states would vote in favor of legalizing gay marriage. So where would DT put those states? Are they in the union because they don't legally ban sodomy, or are they out of the union because they haven't legalized gay marriage?

if they don't have either "gay marriage" or "marriage=civil union" & "civil unions" then they're out of my hypothetical union because they're discriminating.

it's not about the "sacred" institution of marriage, or legalizing what goes on in the bedroom. it's about the myriad additional benefits that go along with it, financial benefits in the eyes of the IRS, custody benefits of children or step-kids, healthcare decisions, etc.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Oh yes, I forgot the caveat that when it comes to conservative authoritarianism, you don't actually need evidence of despotic action. An op/ed in Newsmax or World Net Daily, or the opinions of a non-governmental citizens group will suffice, even if no debate about impeaching a justice is ever held.

So, while Tom DeLay was in Congress, he never called for the impeachments of any judges that made decisions he didn't agree with? You must not have remembered the rant he went off on after the whole decision around Terry Schiavo.