Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Here's an interesting poll number from the AP: Obama with a 2-3 point lead. But that's not even the interesting part. Obama holds that lead with a party weight of the following: 40/27/21 (Dem/Rep/Ind). That's just nuts. Obama should be winning by a bigger margin than that at that party weight. Something's funky here........

No, because that's the weight of America. You do realize that there are millions of registered Democrats in America that vote Republican every year? Polls have been weighted like this for years; I find it odd when conservatives can find convenient bias in procedures that have been prevalent for years.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

No, because that's the weight of America. You do realize that there are millions of registered Democrats in America that vote Republican every year? Polls have been weighted like this for years; I find it odd when conservatives can find convenient bias in procedures that have been prevalent for years.

Yep. Especially in the South, lots of folks are registered Democrats who wouldn't vote Democratic if their lives depended on it.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Here's an interesting poll number from the AP: Obama with a 2-3 point lead. But that's not even the interesting part. Obama holds that lead with a party weight of the following: 40/27/21 (Dem/Rep/Ind). That's just nuts. Obama should be winning by a bigger margin than that at that party weight. Something's funky here........

http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/nws/electio...ine_101308.pdf

The something funky is that it's a web based poll. I know Drudge didn't mention that, but it says so in the link you provided us.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

The something funky is that it's a web based poll. I know Drudge didn't mention that, but it says so in the link you provided us.

The question obviously begs to be asked: is it funky right or funky wrong? Likely won't know that until election day.

[Tigercat]

Oh God, its that AP/Yahoo poll? I didn't get to look at it since its a PDF. No one cares about that sucker, that poll is a joke. (Just like any internet poll is.)

[yacovfb]

FiveThirtyEight.com: Electoral Projections Done Right: Bad Spin Watch: Drudge Touts Weeks-Old, Web-Based Poll

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by yacovfb

FiveThirtyEight.com: Electoral Projections Done Right: Bad Spin Watch: Drudge Touts Weeks-Old, Web-Based Poll

Now that good be a good 'funky' explanation.

[JPhillips]

Balloon Juice nails it:

You might be excused if you said placing Obama’s face on a $10 food stamp with a bucket of fried chicken, watermelon, ribs, and Kool-Aid was an isolated act.

When a major right-wing network calls Michelle Obama, “Obama’s Baby Mama,” you could dismiss it as as an overzealous producer who just thought it was funny and didn’t mean it to say that black women are just baby machines for black men. You could, I suppose.

You might even get a pass if you thought a Web site that depicted Obama and the word “Waterboard Him” was just created by an obscure group that didn’t represent all Republicans – although you would be wrong.

If a picture of Obama was Photoshopped to make him look a little bit like Osama Bin Laden, you could pass it off as the work of a few idiots on the right. It could be, right?

Supporters who carry racist Obama Monkey Dolls to your rallys are people who don’t represent your campaign. You could argue that.

Of course, this is just a moron on the fringe, right?

What about when a high-level Republican fundraiser sends out an email that includes a joke with the punchline, if an airplane carrying Obama and his wife were blown up “it certainly wouldn’t be a great loss, and it probably wouldn’t be an accident either.”? Sure, you could pass it off as the act of a random dumbass.

If, in response to your question, “Who is Barack Obama?” someone yelled “Terrorist!” you could say that was just one idiot in the crowd and was not indicative of the general sentiment. It’s plausible.

In fact, you could cite dozens of examples of these racist, divisive, dillusiuonal attacks on Barack Obama and conclude that they are just elements of the fringe and don’t represent mainstream Republicans.

Sooner or later though, you will have to acknowledge that this “fringe” is very widespread. You’ll have to come to grips, eventually, with the fact that this “fringe” has become the very definition of the your party.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Anyone else hear this comment from Sen. Obama yesterday?

"(McCain) is trying to argue that he's fighting for the average plumber? How many plumbers you know that are making $250,000?" (crowd laughs)

Why in the world would he make his point in this manner? Is there a problem with a plumber having higher aspirations? Are only the 'average' plumbers worth fighting for? Should 'Joe' be attacked for having those aspirations, even if they are not fully achieved at this point?

I just don't get this at all.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Balloon Juice nails it:

Anyone making that kind of statement isn't looking on both sides of the fence. There's numerous kooks in both parties. As I stated before, there's no prerequisite that you have to be smart or logical to vote (unfortunately).

[Noop]

Obama reminds me of the Rock (WWE) all this talk of pie.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Anyone else hear this comment from Sen. Obama yesterday?

"(McCain) is trying to argue that he's fighting for the average plumber? How many plumbers you know that are making $250,000?" (crowd laughs)

Why in the world would he make his point in this manner? Is there a problem with a plumber having higher aspirations? Are only the 'average' plumbers worth fighting for? Should 'Joe' be attacked for having those aspirations, even if they are not fully achieved at this point?

I just don't get this at all.

Let's ask you the same question:

"How many plumbers [do] you know that are making $250,000 [per year]?"

To be fair Ill ask myself the same question:

"How many plumbers do you know [period]?" - none, so I guess my answer is none. what's yours?

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Balloon Juice nails it:

"Sooner or later though, you will have to acknowledge that this “fringe” is very widespread. You’ll have to come to grips, eventually, with the fact that this “fringe” has become the very definition of the your party."

I can certainly see how a Democrat would want to spin it that way but give me a fucking break.

That's a HUGE statement and while not nearly as bad as the prior cited stuff about Obama, it goes down that road. Racism is the definition of the Republican party, got it. Does that apply to anyone who doesn't like Obama, or just anyone who votes Republican?

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Anyone making that kind of statement isn't looking on both sides of the fence. There's numerous kooks in both parties. As I stated before, there's no prerequisite that you have to be smart or logical to vote (unfortunately).

I dunno, I havnt heard much "terrorist" yelled at Mccain. I know some argue 'he could die soon' which is silly but not much 'terror talk' at McCain. I havnt heard "Kill him" either at McCain although it wouldnt surprise me if you couldnt find some video somewhere of some idiot saying that. Also find me a spot where McCain was called an 'Arab' with subtle racist overtones. Although Im not sure Arab alone is bad nomenclature but I wouldnt know either way for that specific word.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Anyone else hear this comment from Sen. Obama yesterday?

"(McCain) is trying to argue that he's fighting for the average plumber? How many plumbers you know that are making $250,000?" (crowd laughs)

Why in the world would he make his point in this manner? Is there a problem with a plumber having higher aspirations? Are only the 'average' plumbers worth fighting for? Should 'Joe' be attacked for having those aspirations, even if they are not fully achieved at this point?

I just don't get this at all.

The point that Obama was trying to make (although maybe he should have made it without a joke I concur) is that someone making $250,000 a year is not an "average American." Choosing someone as your shining example of an average American who makes what...5x the average salary of someone in this country (if not a bit more) is hardly fighting for the "average American."

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

The point that Obama was trying to make (although maybe he should have made it without a joke I concur) is that someone making $250,000 a year is not an "average American." Choosing someone as your shining example of an average American who makes what...5x the average salary of someone in this country (if not a bit more) is hardly fighting for the "average American."

Did McCain call that guy an "average plumber" or an "average American"? If he did, that's pretty dumb. If he didn't, than Obama's being just a tad misleading (or as liberals call that, "lying").

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Let's ask you the same question:

"How many plumbers [do] you know that are making $250,000 [per year]?"

To be fair Ill ask myself the same question:

"How many plumbers do you know [period]?" - none, so I guess my answer is none. what's yours?

I guess that's my beef. I know two people that own similar businesses, though not a plumber. One is a glass installation business and the other is an electrical installation business. Both are very similar to plumbing in that they make up a portion of the home building industry and the pay grade at the lower level is very similar. With that said, both of the people I know are in the position that Joe is in and they will both see tax increases under the Obama tax plan. It's a real situation and trivializing it as Obama did is not the right move to make.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I dunno, I havnt heard much "terrorist" yelled at Mccain. I know some argue 'he could die soon' which is silly but not much 'terror talk' at McCain. I havnt heard "Kill him" either at McCain although it wouldnt surprise me if you couldnt find some video somewhere of some idiot saying that. Also find me a spot where McCain was called an 'Arab' with subtle racist overtones. Although Im not sure Arab alone is bad nomenclature but I wouldnt know either way for that specific word.

Well noboby had monkey dolls of McCain either, but that wouldn't make any sense, so I don't know what your point is.

Of course Obama will be subject to more racism than McCain. That's news? McCain's a white guy. I don't know what this fact says about anyone in the Republican party, who's voting McCain, or who's not voting Obama. It just says there's racists in America. Check.

I think the broader point is that there's fringe crazies on both sides.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

Did McCain call that guy an "average plumber" or an "average American"? If he did, that's pretty dumb. If he didn't, than Obama's being just a tad misleading (or as liberals call that, "lying").

without looking at the transcript i do believe he did of the top of my head

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by molson

Did McCain call that guy an "average plumber" or an "average American"? If he did, that's pretty dumb. If he didn't, than Obama's being just a tad misleading (or as liberals call that, "lying").

The quote was exactly as I typed it.

[Flasch186]

so the answer is "no" you dont know any plumbers making over 250K. We actually not only agree but have the same experience then. I know people who own, what they consider to be small business that make over 250K but according to the government if you remove those on Schedule C and such that achievement is not only few and far between but something to be very very proud of. That being said, Obama said that Small business would be exempt so if you want to argue the definition of a small business than you may find some ground to stand on OR if you want to argue that you simply ddont trust the words that are coming out of his mouth, than you can argue that too. But if were taking X from one than you should take X from the other or else you might as well stop paying attention and mail in your vote already.

[miked]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I guess that's my beef. I know two people that own similar businesses, though not a plumber. One is a glass installation business and the other is an electrical installation business. Both are very similar to plumbing in that they make up a portion of the home building industry and the pay grade at the lower level is very similar. With that said, both of the people I know are in the position that Joe is in and they will both see tax increases under the Obama tax plan. It's a real situation and trivializing it as Obama did is not the right move to make.

What position is that, being unlicensed, owing back taxes, or lying about how much they are going to make (or confusing how much it will cost to buy a business with how much taxes change with NET income)?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I guess that's my beef. I know two people that own similar businesses, though not a plumber. One is a glass installation business and the other is an electrical installation business. Both are very similar to plumbing in that they make up a portion of the home building industry and the pay grade at the lower level is very similar. With that said, both of the people I know are in the position that Joe is in and they will both see tax increases under the Obama tax plan. It's a real situation and trivializing it as Obama did is not the right move to make.

no doubt that trivializing isn't the right move to make. however I contend that if they're both in a situation where they'd see a large tax increase because they make that much then i'm not shedding any tears for them versus say me and my earnings for example.

keep in mind the point that someone made earlier in the thread (at least i think it was here) - that it's not like they will necessarily see a massive jump in their taxes - they are only taxed on the portion of their income that is over the 250k. So if they're making 251k then they'll pay the higher tax bracket on that $1k, not the whole 251k.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by molson

Well noboby had monkey dolls of McCain either, but that wouldn't make any sense, so I don't know what your point is.

Of course Obama will be subject to more racism than McCain. That's news? McCain's a white guy. I don't know what this fact says about anyone in the Republican party, who's voting McCain, or who's not voting Obama. It just says there's racists in America. Check.

I think the broader point is that there's fringe crazies on both sides.

but when McCain had the opportunity to correct his fans he did (although the campaign managers, whom are the worst I can remember, shouldve never allowed him to be in that position to begin with) but on the global stage when presented with the opportunity to take a stand against that 'fringe' he didnt. also Sarah has done nothing if not encourage some 'fringe' behaviour at her rallies. I would hope Obama would take McCain's tact and not Sarah's. that being said the violent rhetoric is certainly higher on one side than the other, if you find a way of excusing that so be it....I dont, for either side.

[DaddyTorgo]

idk why "joe the plumber" nee Keating is worried anyways - it's not like he's paid his taxes before so it's not like he'd actually end up paying them under obama either.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

without looking at the transcript i do believe he did of the top of my head

I just looked at it here:

CPD: 2008 Debate Transcript

And McCain never called him either. He was clearly making a point about small businesses, not "average Americans". So Obama's full of shit (They're both full of shit, of course)

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

molson,

While I certainly agree with the main thrust of your point, I do feel like things have gotten more toxic than I'm used to seeing, at least in a "mainstream" way.

Sure, because Obama's black. That can't be compared to Bush/Kerry, Bush/Gore or any other presidential election we've ever had. This is heavy stuff. It's not surprising that we even see touches of it in the mainstream.

What I object to is the utilization of this racism to make a political argument, like that article did, saying that racism has become of the definition of the Republican party. There's also a lot this idea out there (not in this thread), that if you're under 50 and don't like Obama you're a racist. That article touches on that idea, arguing you have two choices: Obama, or voting for a racist party

[Flasch186]

he hasnt complained of racism but violent rhetoric....big difference. Where the violence manifests itself isnt his problem but allowing violent discord to exist is.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

he hasnt complained of racism but violent rhetoric....big difference. Where the violence manifests itself isnt his problem but allowing violent discord to exist is.

Sure, that's another huge difference, a huge problem, and a sad commentary.

Still doesn't make the entire Republican party racist, and still makes it disgusting that people utilize this violence and racism to make a pitch for their candidate.

[Flasch186]

'fringe' yes, vocal? yes and should be excised quickly from the ranks....not defended. When given the opportunity, I wish McCain wouldve said as much during the debate. He chose a different tact than the class he showed in Minny.

and you keep saying racism while the left havnt.....At least I havnt. Racism is the individuals weakness, the violence becomes ours.

[DaddyTorgo]

molson - you got a typo in there (i hope) -- you meant to say "still makes it disgusting that people utilize this violence and racism to make a pitch for their candidate."

you got an extra "doesn't" in there

[Flasch186]

i think so.

[larrymcg421]

McCain called him "Joe the plumber" numerous times. If you don't think he was using the guy's profession in a way to appeal to the average American, then I'm really not sure what to say.

[Flasch186]

...and on the whole "Joe the Plumber" aspect, marketing wise.....

another debacle for this management team to go from one example anecdotally to turning it into a caricature is simply inexcusable. Either theyre inept or McCain wont let people advise him on these things. I dont know which but it couldve been a good thing had he not turned it into a joke. Seriously, these campaign directors should never get a job in politics again.

[larrymcg421]

Yeah, if you're gonna mention an individual 20 times in your debate and make an example out of him, it might have been a good idea to do some vetting first.

[Flasch186]

not just that. That's after the fact.

while it was happening it went from anecdotal to cartoonish and that shouldve never been allowed to happen.

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

McCain called him "Joe the plumber" numerous times. If you don't think he was using the guy's profession in a way to appeal to the average American, then I'm really not sure what to say.

They were talking about small businesses. I can see a plumber being used as a "average" kind of small business, but they were clearly talking about small businesses.

Obama's point doesn't make any sense anyway:

""(McCain) is trying to argue that he's fighting for the average plumber? How many plumbers you know that are making $250,000?" (crowd laughs)"

So McCain isn't really fighting for the average plumber because he used, as a small business example in a debate, a guy who was buying a plumbing business that has profits exceeding what a regular plumber makes as an individual?

Obama thinks you're all morons. He's really playing to a lowest common denominator - "rich bad, poor good" kind of thing. I guess that's what you have to do to win these things.

[Dr. Sak]

I realize this is nitpicking a bit here but are we sure his profit is $250,000 or that is what is business brings in each year? Because there is a difference.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by molson

Obama thinks you're all morons. He's really playing to a lowest common denominator - "rich bad, poor good" kind of thing. I guess that's what you have to do to win these things.

end of discussion here molson.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

end of discussion here molson.

I thought it was JPhillips said that an article saying racism was the definition of the republican party, "nailed it".

I point out an Obama deception and you freak out.

[DaddyTorgo]

okay i missed letterman last night, but wow...was this really the (unedited) content:

However, Thursday's interview was not all fun and games, as Letterman pressed McCain on Republican VP Sarah Palin's preparedness to lead the country through "the next 9/11 attack.."
"Absolutely," she is, McCain said. "She has inspired Americans. That's the thing we need."
McCain said her experience as a mayor, governor and PTA member have prepared her to be president.

Are you kidding me? Really...seriously...are you fucking kidding me? PTA member? Mayor? Prepared for being President? You've gone off the deep end McCain - your judgement is no longer just suspect...it's shot to hell.

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Are you kidding me? Really...seriously...are you fucking kidding me? PTA member? Mayor? Prepared for being President? You've gone off the deep end McCain - your judgement is no longer just suspect...it's shot to hell.

Let's not forget that President Roslin was just the Secretary of Education (or something) before the Cylons attacked.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I realize this is nitpicking a bit here but are we sure his profit is $250,000 or that is what is business brings in each year? Because there is a difference.

We're not sure at all, because this business of his is as fictional as his plumbing license.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by molson

Well noboby had monkey dolls of McCain either, but that wouldn't make any sense, so I don't know what your point is.

So having a monkey doll of Obama makes sense?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

So having a monkey doll of Obama makes sense?

monkeys come from Africa. black people come from africa. obama is black. therefore obama is a monkey...you mean you don't see the logic in that?

*note sarcasm*

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

no doubt that trivializing isn't the right move to make. however I contend that if they're both in a situation where they'd see a large tax increase because they make that much then i'm not shedding any tears for them versus say me and my earnings for example.

keep in mind the point that someone made earlier in the thread (at least i think it was here) - that it's not like they will necessarily see a massive jump in their taxes - they are only taxed on the portion of their income that is over the 250k. So if they're making 251k then they'll pay the higher tax bracket on that $1k, not the whole 251k.

Yeah, but then they won't even try to make that extra 1k. Don't you see? Smart, ambitious people who desire to form a small business will look at the fact that they would get an extra 3% tax on income over $250K, and say "Well damn! I would have liked to make $500,000 a year, but if I have to pay an extra 3%, I'll not even try."

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

molson - you got a typo in there (i hope) -- you meant to say "still makes it disgusting that people utilize this violence and racism to make a pitch for their candidate."

you got an extra "doesn't" in there

Yes, edited, thank you.

[Flasch186]

Yeah, but then they won't even try to make that extra 1k. Don't you see? Smart, ambitious people who desire to form a small business will look at the fact that they would get an extra 3% tax on income over $250K, and say "Well damn! I would have liked to make $500,000 a year, but if I have to pay an extra 3%, I'll not even try."

O RLY?

[molson]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Yeah, but then they won't even try to make that extra 1k. Don't you see? Smart, ambitious people who desire to form a small business will look at the fact that they would get an extra 3% tax on income over $250K, and say "Well damn! I would have liked to make $500,000 a year, but if I have to pay an extra 3%, I'll not even try."

True, and it's very silly to make the argument that the kind of tax difference we're talking about makes any real difference to individuals or individual small businesses.

But it's not the only reason for lower taxes - on the whole, we're talking billions of dollars, and where those dollars are best off.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

So having a monkey doll of Obama makes sense?

In a racist sense yes, it makes sense, because African-Americans have been historically compared to monkeys. That's why the whole thing is offensive in the first place.

If someone had a McCain monkey doll - it wouldn't make any sense.