Big 10 Expansion Thread -Big Ten ready for a playoff .. finally?

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Logan

Bloodbath.

Big East deal could be worth as little as $60 million per year - CBSSports.com

That's not surprising. The new Big East is pretty much the same, or little less than, the old Mountain West when it comes to football. I'd guess a very high percentage of the value is now basketball, though losing Louisville, Pittsburgh, Syracuse and Notre Dame, among others, greatly reduces that value, too.

There is no longer such an animal as a mid-major. Just five majors and Notre Dame. I think Boise State and San Diego State would be better off remaining in the Mountain West.

This story, in retrospect, is rather hilarious (or tragic, if you happen to support UConn, Cincinnati or South Florida):

Big East expected to have plenty of suitors for next TV deal - NCAA Football - Sporting News

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Wisconsin AD confirms that Rutgers, Maryland were added out of concern that Penn State would leave if they didn't add schools in their area.

Barry Alvarez says Big Ten expanded in part to keep Penn State Nittany Lions - ESPN

[Abe Sargent]

Wow - after PSU was considered by some to be some to be a nasty thing to be avoided, and some considered kicking them out, now the yare in teh driver's seat for expansion?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Wow - after PSU was considered by some to be some to be a nasty thing to be avoided, and some considered kicking them out, now the yare in teh driver's seat for expansion?

I think it's an acknowledgment of demographics and the 4 superconferences. Unless they went for something huge like Stanford or Texas it makes no sense to go further west (the Dakotas, Utah, Colorado aren't offering much, and you're not going to get traction in the Pacific states even by adding 1-2 teams), they weren't going to be able to expand to the south (especially once Missouri was off the board ), so it makes sense for future viewers and students to essentially lock up the Northeast. Otherwise there was a risk that the ACC could take over the entire eastern seaboard, become the 4th superconference (making the Big 12 the one that gets picked at by the Pac-10 and SEC), and box the Big Ten into their slowly dying midwestern base.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Wisconsin AD confirms that Rutgers, Maryland were added out of concern that Penn State would leave if they didn't add schools in their area.

Barry Alvarez says Big Ten expanded in part to keep Penn State Nittany Lions - ESPN

Here's the actual quote:

"Jim felt that someday, if we didn't have anyone else in that corridor, someday it wouldn't make sense maybe for Penn State to be in our league," Alvarez told the board, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. "That they would go into a league somewhere on the East Coast. By doing that, it keeps us in the Northeast corridor."

I don't exactly take that as "confirmation". You know, grant of rights, massive scandal and all...plus the two "somedays" and a "maybe".

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Logan

Here's the actual quote:

I don't exactly take that as "confirmation". You know, grant of rights, massive scandal and all...plus the two "somedays" and a "maybe".

The somedays and maybes were related to their foresight as far as what Penn State might do. There's no somedays and maybes related to the decision. The move was clearly made to remove the somedays and maybes from the equation.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

The somedays and maybes were related to their foresight as far as what Penn State might do. There's no somedays and maybes related to the decision. The move was clearly made to remove the somedays and maybes from the equation.

Haha ok whatever you say. I notice you didn't address that pesky GOR issue. I'm sure they grabbed those schools now so they wouldn't need to worry about PSU's potential move in...2031?

[Swaggs]

Not to mention that they are essentially shareholders in the BTN.

[bronconick]

If PSU really, really had wanted to leave, I think selling back their shares in BTN would actually cover most of the GOR.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Logan

Haha ok whatever you say. I notice you didn't address that pesky GOR issue. I'm sure they grabbed those schools now so they wouldn't need to worry about PSU's potential move in...2031?

So you're calling the B10 AD's a bunch of idiots who don't have a firm grasp on the situation given that you feel you have a better grasp of the situation then they do? I'm not sure I disagree with that. They've not made the best of decisions of late.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Looks like another big move about to take place in the Big East. The basketball-only schools are looking to form their own conference.

Big East Catholic schools breaking away? | A Jersey Guy LLC

[Toddzilla]

...and completely disappear into irrelevancy

[Young Drachma]

Did the Big East core of Catholic basketball schools finally wake up? - college basketball - ESPN

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

...and completely disappear into irrelevancy

I don't know about that. Football can be a big revenue driver OR it can be a boat anchor. I think there's something to be said for some of these schools to move to a basketball first school. Much less revenue required and far fewer scholarships, but you're still going to get some good exposure on the major sports networks. I think this is a better move than jumping into football and struggling to draw flies at your game with no real network coverage or major TV contracts.

[Logan]

More ammunition for Rutgers suit against the conference.

[molson]

Bigger and "more relevant" athletic programs don't have to always be the ultimate goal of universities. There was a time around the Sandusky stuff where it seemed like everyone - especially public universities - were going to settle down a little bit with the sports worship but that didn't happen. So maybe the Catholic schools want to do their own thing and play basketball against each other. Good for them. The identity of Georgetown and Villanova and the rest doesn't necessarily have to be desperately clinging to the coattails of whatever bigger athletic programs than they associate with. Maybe they can just be good academic institutions with a basketball tradition, that's not the end of the world.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by molson

Bigger and "more relevant" athletic programs don't have to always be the ultimate goal of universities. There was a time around the Sandusky stuff where it seemed like everyone - especially public universities - were going to settle down a little bit with the sports worship but that didn't happen. So maybe the Catholic schools want to do their own thing and play basketball against each other. Good for them. The identity of Georgetown and Villanova and the rest doesn't necessarily have to be desperately clinging to the coattails of whatever bigger athletic programs than they associate with. Maybe they can just be good academic institutions with a basketball tradition, that's not the end of the world.

I went to a non-competitive Division III school. There really isn't anything wrong with a university whose main function isn't to host a minor-league football team.

Sure, it would have been cool to get together with 70,000 of my closest friends on Saturday afternoons. Or to cheer a Sweet Sixteen run from on campus.

But there is a LOT of bullshit that you don't have to deal with when big time sports are not driving the entire show.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by molson

The identity of Georgetown and Villanova and the rest doesn't necessarily have to be desperately clinging to the coattails of whatever bigger athletic programs than they associate with.

As it is now, those schools ARE the big names in that conference IMO. The rest of the schools may have football, but people recognize Georgetown and Villanova as a bigger deal than any of the other schools in that conference (I'm tossing Louisville out of that discussion assuming they're all but gone). Villanova and Georgetown both have great basketball histories that put them on the national map.

[Young Drachma]

Atlantic 10 open to adding Big East basketball schools, creating 21-team conference -- source - ESPN

Apparently Temple has full voting rights, even though they're not a full member yet and so, it prevents the Bloc of 7 from being able to nuke the league. Makes me think someone "gave" them "full voting rights" mysteriously in time to prevent what they must've known might happen down the road.

[Matthean]

21 teams, might as well make two conferences.

[Izulde]

Let's be accurate here, shall we? Georgetown and Villanova both have football - it's just FCS as opposed to FBS.

[Logan]

And Villanova desperately wanted to move up to FBS, and would have if they were allowed into the Big East (prior to the WVU, Cuse, Pitt etc defections).

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I don't know about that. Football can be a big revenue driver OR it can be a boat anchor. I think there's something to be said for some of these schools to move to a basketball first school. Much less revenue required and far fewer scholarships, but you're still going to get some good exposure on the major sports networks. I think this is a better move than jumping into football and struggling to draw flies at your game with no real network coverage or major TV contracts.

True, but if you look at the 2014 Big East allignment, the biggest name value basketball schools still include 4 of the football schools in the top 6 or 7.

I do understand the point of them not wanting to be tied to some of the schools who have been added and will be added going forward. The big question is are they willing to give up TV money because they aren't going to get as much money without Cincy, UConn and Memphis as they would with.

[Logan]

Maryland to Big Ten: ‘It’s money versus tradition’ - The Washington Post

[Young Drachma]

Big East basketball schools likely bolting to their own league.

As Big East Catholic schools prepare to break away, key issues emerge - College Basketball - Pete Thamel - SI.com

Rumors are they want get Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis, Creighton and maybe Butler to come along for the party. More distant thoughts are poaching say Gonzaga and St. Mary's and making it a national CYO league, but...that seems far less likely though it'd fetch nice dollars.

[General Mike]

So I heard Ivan maisel and some other ESPN shill bemoaning the fall of the Big East basketball and tried to place it on the heads of the football teams because they made them add Miami, Va Tech, west Virginia, etc in the 90s and then they all ended up leaving, but they forget that if those teams hadn't been added Pitt, Cuse and BC would have bailed to form a football conference in 1990.

[Abe Sargent]

The fall of the Big East began when they voted to not add Penn State when it applied

[Young Drachma]

Meh. Penn State would've left eventually, given the turn of events as they've been. I agree it was a stupid move, though.

[Young Drachma]

And this move now by the basketball schools is long overdue and smart. I imagine the leftover schools will get the keep the "Big East" brand name and stuff, solely because of contracts. You can't dissolve the league outright because the new conferences would have to petition for pretty much everything and for the football schools, that'd be even more of a disaster. At least with the edifice of a conference, even if the name changes and contract intact, they can do what they need to do to move on.

Meanwhile, the catholic schools and their partners they poach will be able to get their own deal and do an east coast WCC.

[Logan]

When you say the leftover schools, do you mean the football schools? If so, the CYOs will be leaving all those lucrative NCAA tourney credits behind. I legitimately can't figure out how this works out where the basketball schools aren't leaving a pile of money on the table. I think it ends in a very long legal battle.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Logan

When you say the leftover schools, do you mean the football schools? If so, the CYOs will be leaving all those lucrative NCAA tourney credits behind. I legitimately can't figure out how this works out where the basketball schools aren't leaving a pile of money on the table. I think it ends in a very long legal battle.

The CYOs could dissolve the league if they want to, but that'd screw the football schools. So I think the deal when it's all said and done is, the CYOs will get their share of the exit fees from the teams that fucked the league in the first place, to ensure they can start their new league, they might SHARE MSG for their respective tournaments or alternate for a bit (let's not forget, the Newark arena is there too and so, someone will probably go play there in the off-years...since that arena isn't always used for NCAA games)

They leave behind those credits, but they probably will follow it up with their TV deal. If they can forge a national league, they'd make some of that money back.

Barclays is already to the A10, so that's out of play.

It's all going to be a big mess, but..the CYOs will get an autobid no matter what happens, because they've all playing together for 5 years and they're a core group of 7. So depending on how bitchy the Big East is to them, will determine whether they vote to sink the bitch or to leave it intact.

[Young Drachma]

Notre Dame was supposed to stay in the Big East for a 27-month period, which could mean as long as the 2015 season. But the Irish have been negotiating an early exit.

Brey also said the discussion among the Catholic schools was to make it a national Catholic conference with Xavier, Saint Louis, Dayton, Creighton, Gonzaga and possibly Saint Mary's, as well.

Seven schools agree to leave Big East, debating process, source says - ESPN

I think making it a national league is more smarter from a media rights perspective than trying to just confine it to an eastern league. Essentially a mid-major super league with Butler and maybe VCU to boot and it'd be a solid footprint nationally recognizable league, especially if ESPN (as likely) comes in and gives them a broadcast deal.

[Young Drachma]

1. While the Big East's seven non-FBS basketball schools are deciding what course of action to take next, there is one school that would love to be a part of any new conference or conglomerate: Gonzaga. Sources say the Zags would love to part with the West Coast Conference and be a member of a national, branded basketball conference. The theory is that if Boise State and San Diego State can be in the Big East for football, then why couldn’t Gonzaga in a basketball version? Of course, the easy response is that football is played once a week and there is usually a maximum of four or five league road games. Still, the Zags are looking out for themselves and would like to be positioned with fellow national Catholic-based schools instead of regional ones in the WCC. Gonzaga might not have a choice, but is starting to be a bit more proactive if an opportunity arises.

3-point shot: Gonzaga eying Big East? - College Basketball Nation Blog - ESPN

This confirms the Zags would be down for a CYO national league.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

The CYOs could dissolve the league if they want to, but that'd screw the football schools. So I think the deal when it's all said and done is, the CYOs will get their share of the exit fees from the teams that fucked the league in the first place, to ensure they can start their new league

So help me out here...how do they get out of the league without dissolving the league? If they leave the league, they're subject to the same exit fee that Rutgers and Louisville are.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Logan

So help me out here...how do they get out of the league without dissolving the league? If they leave the league, they're subject to the same exit fee that Rutgers and Louisville are.

The situation right now in the Big East, the Catholics hold the keys until May, when those new football schools (SDSU, Boise State, Houston, SMU and Memphis) all get full voting rights. Temple would get rights to dissolve that they don't have now, despite having "full" voting rights.

You need 2/3 votes to dissolve the Big East and so the 7 Catholics have it so long as they remain a bloc.

Dissolving the Big East screws everyone, because those revenue units get lost, the remaining Big East school can start a new conference obviously, but wouldn't be assured an auto-bid (The NCAA would surely waive them into one) since they don't have 7 schools that have all been playing for 5 years together. It would also nullify any contracts the Big East. It'd be the ultimate dick move and college sports while especially dickish these days, is still a clubby sort of deal and these people aren't going to burn the bridge down entirely I don't think.

So I'm guessing as a fly on the wall, that the CYOs would vote to leave the Big East and through litigation, get some sort of situation where in exchange for the Big East getting to keep the name, the tournament credits and perhaps some sort of shared arrangement (or just giving up MSG) at MSG, that they'd get to have startup cash to leave the league without exit fees since they have the nuclear option at their disposal.

If the CYOs are really just trying to start a national league, surely they have a sense of what they could get in a national deal, they get the buzz of having a new league, can poach at least half a dozen teams that want to play with them AND get to rebrand themselves entirely.

So TL;DR, they ARE subject to the same exit fees...but I imagine both sides will find a way to solve that. The schools who want to leave early will naturally use this as a way to limit their exit fees, but..that's frankly the least of the league's problems right now, when you consider that the Catholics could announce they're simply shutting the whole operation down.

[Chubby]

can you have a conference of 3 members?

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Chubby

can you have a conference of 3 members?

No. The minimum you can get a waiver for is like 6 for like up to two years to keep your bid. The WAC is testing those limits. I mean, you could have a league. Just not a league with an auto-bid. Great West, that non-autobid scheduling arrangement league that had a bunch of transitional D1 teams (and Chicago State) for a while before being picked has like 3 teams left or some such.

[Young Drachma]

The CYOs leave, the Big East would have Temple, Boise State, San Diego State, Houston, Tulane (2014), ECU (2014), Navy (2015), UCF, USF, Memphis, Cincinnati and UConn, provided Louisville and Rutgers get to leave early.

In basketball, it'd be Temple, Tulane, UCF, USF, Memphis, Cincy, UConn, Houston, again provided Louisville/Notre Dame and Rutgers get to leave early.

[Young Drachma]

Worth noting the Big East name isn't exactly worth shit anymore. It's been mocked and derided to the point to where both would be better off without it. But need to keep the edifice of it up if they want to benefit from the deals that league has in place, even if the name changes once the split occurs.

[Logan]

Rutgers and Louisville aren't going to end up paying a dime to get out.

[Young Drachma]

Big East hoops schools can't dissolve league, sources told @espn. Can leave as group w/out paying exit fees, but must wait 27 months

— Brett McMurphy (@McMurphyESPN) December 14, 2012

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

3-point shot: Gonzaga eying Big East? - College Basketball Nation Blog - ESPN

This confirms the Zags would be down for a CYO national league.

WTF they gonna do with their other sports in that scenario? It makes no sense to ship soccer, baseball, volleyball, etc all over the country, and no other conference is going to let them park those sports there.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by General Mike

WTF they gonna do with their other sports in that scenario? It makes no sense to ship soccer, baseball, volleyball, etc all over the country, and no other conference is going to let them park those sports there.

All-sports conference. The way I figure it, if NJIT and a bunch of other schools could afford to play in the Great West as an all-sports league for the past few years as they did, surely these basketball schools can afford to have their Olympic sports doing the same, too. Even if it's a little batty on paper. I guess they figure their teams (Big East) were poised to fly all over in the new BE anyway, so why not going places they want to go? And for the WCC schools, the idea is probably all about exposure.

Will be interesting if they can pull it off.

[Abe Sargent]

Can you imagine the Catholic League, which I'm tentatively called the UCC - Universal Catholic Conference, in the MSG tournament with teams like Gonzaga against Georgetown and such? Man that would be must watch TV of the highest caliber.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Can you imagine the Catholic League, which I'm tentatively called the UCC - Universal Catholic Conference, in the MSG tournament with teams like Gonzaga against Georgetown and such? Man that would be must watch TV of the highest caliber.

I don't know, once you get past Georgetown, there's really not a ton there. Villanova obviously has a great history but has fallen short of expectations for a number of years (can really say the same for Georgetown). Marquette has been very solid but doesn't have much in the way of name recognition or a style of play that is particularly appealing. There's potential in STJ but then you have a bunch of others who don't move the needle. Even if the schools that come with Gonzaga are up to that caliber, you're never going to approach the BET Tourney atmosphere in MSG when you had Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, etc.

I guess I just have reservations that a league can use religion to build itself up. If I'm the CYO BE schools, I much prefer uniting with the A-10 schools and at least developing new regional rivalries.

[Swaggs]

A basketball split makes a lot of sense for likeness of schools and increasing the power within the conference, but I just don't think the money is going to be there without the "football" schools to make this worthwhile.

The Atlantic 10's media deal was $40-million over 8-years (or $5-million per year split between 14 teams. So, that's between $300K-$400K per year.

Even though the Big East has lost a lot of its basketball muscle in these latest few expansions (Louisville, Syracuse, Pitt, WVU, Notre Dame), wouldn't you still rather be aligned with Cincy, UConn, Memphis, Houston, and Temple over the A10 schools?

Like I said, I understand the split from the cultural perspective, but if I'm Villanova or Georgetown or Marquette and want to stay nationally relevant, I'd be more interested in keeping up with the Temples, Marylands, and Wisconsins of the world rather than St. Joe's or George Washington.

[Marmel]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

A basketball split makes a lot of sense for likeness of schools and increasing the power within the conference, but I just don't think the money is going to be there without the "football" schools to make this worthwhile.

The Atlantic 10's media deal was $40-million over 8-years (or $5-million per year split between 14 teams. So, that's between $300K-$400K per year.

Even though the Big East has lost a lot of its basketball muscle in these latest few expansions (Louisville, Syracuse, Pitt, WVU, Notre Dame), wouldn't you still rather be aligned with Cincy, UConn, Memphis, Houston, and Temple over the A10 schools?

Like I said, I understand the split from the cultural perspective, but if I'm Villanova or Georgetown or Marquette and want to stay nationally relevant, I'd be more interested in keeping up with the Temples, Marylands, and Wisconsins of the world rather than St. Joe's or George Washington.

From what I understand the TV money is only a small percentage, maybe 10%, of the basketball only's atheltic operating budget. The rest comes from ticket sales, concessions, jerseys, etc. I think it makes perfect sense to split off, even if you take a 50% cut in TV money. It sounds like a lot but it is only 5% of their budget, which, if you are getting better games, should be made up in ticket sales. At worst, at least they control their own destiny.

Pipe dream: Go to 18 teams, 2 divisions. Use the English soccer promotion system. Divide up TV money appropriately between divisions. 1 or 2 teams promote up/relegate down each season. Home/Away against each team in your division, and 2 out of division games if you want an 18 game schedule.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Logan

And Villanova desperately wanted to move up to FBS, and would have if they were allowed into the Big East (prior to the WVU, Cuse, Pitt etc defections).

This is not true at all. Villanova considered the move, but the cost of expanding Villanova Stadium as well as tepid fan support quickly killed the idea.

[Young Drachma]

A national league of the Big East 7, Dayton, Xavier, Butler, St. Louis and Creighton is a bracketbuster special if ESPN signs on to give them exposure.

If the league goes gangbusters and ropes in Gonzaga, St. Mary's to give them 14, then you get the west coast involved and it's a coast to coast league which would suck for Olympic sports, but...otherwise would give them more buzz than any other mid-major, basketball-only league.

It's precisely why they'd never all give up their juice to go join the A-10, would be more valuable to skim programs with whom they want to be aligned.

I know people think college sports are still this bastion of purity, but in a world where pro teams (and college teams) routinely fly cross-country for games, I don't see any reason for college teams not to do the same in their conferences, especially if it's a league of likeminded institutions, gives them some recruiting juice to tell kids their conference schedule is national compared to some regional mid-major league, etc. etc.

The advantages makes sense and these guys need buzz if they're going to max out their tv deal possibilities which is what fuels most of this.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Logan

I guess I just have reservations that a league can use religion to build itself up. If I'm the CYO BE schools, I much prefer uniting with the A-10 schools and at least developing new regional rivalries.

I do agrees with this. It would be nice to renew the Big 5 rivalry, it's diminished significantly over the past two decades.