2013-14 MLB Off Season Thread

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

So your objection is solely to whom he had help him with the ballot then? Color me unsurprised.

Stop reading things into it that I didn't say. I'm doing fine on my own here, you've got plenty to work with.

There are cases where an ass't coach (or 3rd string walk-on equipment manager) prepares the ballot for a voting football HC. That's administrative afaic. There is some sub-set of those cases where the HC may not supervise the contents of that ballot, that's a fuck up & they shouldn't have a vote going forward afaic.

That's not remotely what this p.o.s. writer did, and you most certainly know that.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I think a majority of sports fans know who La Batard is. He is all over the radio and makes a few ESPN appearances each year.

If I'm not mistaken he has both a daily show on EPSN or ESPN2 and on ESPN radio. He also is a guest on PTI which has a pretty big reach.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Stop reading things into it that I didn't say. I'm doing fine on my own here, you've got plenty to work with.

There are cases where an ass't coach (or 3rd string walk-on equipment manager) prepares the ballot for a voting football HC. That's administrative afaic. There is some sub-set of those cases where the HC may not supervise the contents of that ballot, that's a fuck up & they shouldn't have a vote going forward afaic.

That's not remotely what this p.o.s. writer did, and you most certainly know that.

I think DT's point was that Deadspin being the magazine is part of the issue for you where if it were Pinochet Weekly you might not care.

[Thomkal]

I'd love to see everyone's votes be made public. These are baseball writers after all who give their opinion on a daily basis in a public forum. They should be held accountable for their votes by the public in return.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by panerd

He also is a guest on PTI which has a pretty big reach.

Less than a million viewers per day.

More adults watch Team Umizoomi on Nickelodeon, just for some perspective.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That's not remotely what this p.o.s. writer did, and you most certainly know that.

He had someone else prepare the ballot based upon voting, approved it, and sent it in...

Sounds remarkably similar.

[oykib]

It's been pointed out that it didn't take the BBWAA a day to punsih Le Batard. Meanwhile, they never had anything to say in response to, the now, late Bill Conlin after he resigned from his paper in disgrace due to child molestation charges.

[Danny]

Arod is a turd. That is all

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Danny

Arod is a turd. That is all

What'd he do now? Fwiw, I'm on his side (or, rather the side of due process) here - although part of that is that I don't think the Yankees should get a free pass out of his contract when they clearly knew/suspected he was on PED's even as they were signing him to his newest deal. I've also seen his lawyer say that the Yankees hid the extent of his hip condition from him, risking further injury, and then pressured the doctor to botch his surgery so A-Rod couldn't play again and they could collect insurance on his contract. I thought it was one of the best things in the world when A-Rod was getting tied to all these PED's, but the way MLB had handled it I'm actually on his side at this point (even though I still think he did do the PED's.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

He had someone else prepare the ballot based upon voting, approved it, and sent it in... Sounds remarkably similar.

If you don't see the difference {shrug} I don't think I can help you.

[cuervo72]

Nevermind, I see D1 coaches were brought up.

[DaddyTorgo]

follow up

The one thing it apparently does have an issue with—Le Batard's punishment is, as far as we know, unprecedented—is a voter being perceived as tampering with its sacred process. As BBWAA secretary/treasurer Jack O'Connell put it in an email to me, explaining exactly why the BBWAA board of directors had stripped Le Batard of his vote:

The rules of the Hall of Fame clearly state that the only voters are 10-year members of the BBWAA. Mr. LeBatard transferred his ballot to an entity that has not earned that status.

In that same email, O'Connell named the members of the BBWAA board, among them the group's vice president, Jesus Ortiz of the Houston Chronicle. Funny thing, that: Earlier today, a member of the Houston baseball press dropped us a line. Among other things, he told us this:

As for the voter who seeks local input, that's BBWAA vice-president Jose de Jesus Ortiz of the Houston Chronicle. He gathers about 6-8 people over a lunch or dinner, they talk about the players, then he votes by how the majority tells him to vote re: each player. I was part of the panel one year.

I guess turning over a vote to an entity consisting of your cronies is fine, and turning one over to an entity consisting of baseball fans isn't. QED.

Whatever, though. For our part, we'd like to acquire another vote next year. We think we have a decent line on one, and it wouldn't hurt to get another. The first, we'd hand over to the public. The second? Who knows. Maybe we'll give it to Dan Le Batard.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Stay classy Deadspin.

A boil on the butt of humanity, pretty much like I've always thought.

[ISiddiqui]

The amusing thing about that statement is that Deadspin tends to be classier than you

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Stay classy Deadspin.

A boil on the butt of humanity, pretty much like I've always thought.

What does this have to do with the class of deadspin? It's pointing out the hypocrisy at the highest levels of the BBWA.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I guess I missed the memo where home runs are the only results that count for hitters.

That's just the most glaring. There's all kinds of other metrics by which Thomas beats Martinez, which all adds up to a wide gulf. RBIs, runs, hits, slugging percentage, OPS / OPS+, career games played, MVP awards. His 1994 OPS of over 1.200 was the 18th best single-season OPS of all time.

It's not close.

[DanGarion]

I like to share this every year. I think these questions hold lots of merit...

Questions on the Keltner list[edit]

Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?
Was he the best player on his team?
Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?
Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?
Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?
Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?
How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?
How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame?
If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?
What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?
Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider

[claphamsa]

I love HOF discussions

especially when people bring up names who have no business even being considered.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

That's just the most glaring. There's all kinds of other metrics by which Thomas beats Martinez, which all adds up to a wide gulf. RBIs, runs, hits, slugging percentage, OPS / OPS+, career games played, MVP awards. His 1994 OPS of over 1.200 was the 18th best single-season OPS of all time.

It's not close.

I guess your definition of "close" differs from mine:

OPS+: Thomas = 156, Martinez = 147
RC/G: Thomas = 8.8, Martinez = 8.3
oWAR: Thomas = 79.8, Martinez = 66.4

No question that Thomas was a better hitter, but it wasn't a huge gulf. And where Martinez closes that gap is his defense wasn't as bad as Thomas, and being a DH more often, he was also not putting as much drain on the fielding numbers for his teams as Martinez, hence the smaller gap of overall WAR figures.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

especially when people bring up names who have no business even being considered.

Which names would those be?

[oykib]

Did everyone hear about the voter (Marty Noble) who only put three names on his ballot because he didn't want to have to sit through too many induction speeches?

[Buccaneer]

Which names? Anyone but Maddux, glavine, Thomas and perhaps biggio and piazza for this year's choices.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I guess your definition of "close" differs from mine:

OPS+: Thomas = 156, Martinez = 147
RC/G: Thomas = 8.8, Martinez = 8.3
oWAR: Thomas = 79.8, Martinez = 66.4

No question that Thomas was a better hitter, but it wasn't a huge gulf. And where Martinez closes that gap is his defense wasn't as bad as Thomas, and being a DH more often, he was also not putting as much drain on the fielding numbers for his teams as Martinez, hence the smaller gap of overall WAR figures.

Frank Thomas - 2 MVP's, 3 other top 4 finishes. Edgar Martinez - 1 3rd place finish. Even acknowledging that people consistently underestimated Martinez's skill set, there was never a time I thought he was a top 5 player in the game. I know he's your binky, and you'll argue he should have been considered in 1995, but Frank Thomas unquestionably was for a few years there. Being one of the best players in the game at your peak level matters a lot to me, probably more so than counting stats.

(Frank Thomas is also one of 4 HoF level guys I unquestionably think did not do steroids, along with Pedro, Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson. Ken Griddey gets close too, but I wouldn't be shocked if he dabbled in the early 2000's when they were at their most prevalent and injuries were ruining his career.)

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Which names would those be?

someone voted for Eric Gagne!

MRs and CLs are like DH, no matter what your numbers, you only play that position because you weren't good enough to play a real one.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

someone voted for Eric Gagne!

MRs and CLs are like DH, no matter what your numbers, you only play that position because you weren't good enough to play a real one.

It's still a position, and while I agree standards should be higher, I have no problem with the best players ever at a position getting in. (That's Eck or Lee Smith or Trevor Hoffman though... not Eric Gagne). Should all second basemen be disregarded because they didn't have good enough arms to play shortstop?

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

It's still a position, and while I agree standards should be higher, I have no problem with the best players ever at a position getting in. (That's Eck or Lee Smith or Trevor Hoffman though... not Eric Gagne). Should all second basemen be disregarded because they didn't have good enough arms to play shortstop?

nope, its a possition, DH is not. defense is a legit part of the game.

just like a MR CL will never pitch enough innings to really affect a ton!

[cartman]

Bad news for the Rangers. Derek Holland suffered a freak accident at his house, and had to undergo knee surgery. Looks like he'll be out until July.

Derek Holland undergoes knee surgery, may miss first half of season - CBSSports.com

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

someone voted for Eric Gagne!

MRs and CLs are like DH, no matter what your numbers, you only play that position because you weren't good enough to play a real one.

Really?

I used to think like you, but then I realized these guys are just as important to the game as anyone else. If the are the elite of the elite at their job they deserve to be in it as much as anyone else.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

nope, its a possition, DH is not. defense is a legit part of the game.

just like a MR CL will never pitch enough innings to really affect a ton!

Well, it is actually a position in the AL.

Yes, defense is a legit part of the game, and Thomas was bad at it. He'd have been even more valuable playing strictly DH instead of 1B because he wouldn't have been costing them runs in the field. And he played more of his games at DH than 1B.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Frank Thomas - 2 MVP's, 3 other top 4 finishes. Edgar Martinez - 1 3rd place finish. Even acknowledging that people consistently underestimated Martinez's skill set, there was never a time I thought he was a top 5 player in the game. I know he's your binky, and you'll argue he should have been considered in 1995, but Frank Thomas unquestionably was for a few years there. Being one of the best players in the game at your peak level matters a lot to me, probably more so than counting stats.

(Frank Thomas is also one of 4 HoF level guys I unquestionably think did not do steroids, along with Pedro, Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson. Ken Griddey gets close too, but I wouldn't be shocked if he dabbled in the early 2000's when they were at their most prevalent and injuries were ruining his career.)

Thomas had a higher peak value, though not by as much as people might think.

I get the peak value argument, and I agree that staying around the game a long time to pile up counting stats isn't as compelling to me as being extremely good for a shorter period of time.

But Edgar certainly wasn't someone that is in the conversation because he stayed in the game forever piling up numbers; he's not a good player that played forever like a Don Sutton. His rate numbers are quite good.

I know that Edgar isn't a slam dunk, and I know for a lot of fans him being primarily a DH is a big hurdle to overcome. I'm just saying that our more advanced metrics that give us a better understanding of the value players actually provided show that the gap between Thomas and Edgar isn't that big.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Really?

I used to think like you, but then I realized these guys are just as important to the game as anyone else. If the are the elite of the elite at their job they deserve to be in it as much as anyone else.

important sure... well paid sure.... hot groupies sure... HOF no thanks

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Frank Thomas - 2 MVP's, 3 other top 4 finishes. Edgar Martinez - 1 3rd place finish. Even acknowledging that people consistently underestimated Martinez's skill set, there was never a time I thought he was a top 5 player in the game. I know he's your binky, and you'll argue he should have been considered in 1995, but Frank Thomas unquestionably was for a few years there. Being one of the best players in the game at your peak level matters a lot to me, probably more so than counting stats.

(Frank Thomas is also one of 4 HoF level guys I unquestionably think did not do steroids, along with Pedro, Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson. Ken Griddey gets close too, but I wouldn't be shocked if he dabbled in the early 2000's when they were at their most prevalent and injuries were ruining his career.)

From 92-99 he was one of the 5 best hitters in baseball. Check out his OBP. His career OBP of .418 is extraordinary. Im not prepared to argue on how much weight should be applied to defense but not having him in is leaving out one of the best hitters of his generation. Very much like Joey Votto in todays game.

[korme]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

(Frank Thomas is also one of 4 HoF level guys I unquestionably think did not do steroids, along with Pedro, Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson. Ken Griddey gets close too, but I wouldn't be shocked if he dabbled in the early 2000's when they were at their most prevalent and injuries were ruining his career.)

Ken Griffey Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

I'll take offense to that. As a Reds fan, I can assure you Ken never dabbled. Early 2000's? He came to the Reds in 2000, and played 145 games. For the rest of his career he never hit 145 games again. At 30 years old. So sad.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by korme

Ken Griffey Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

I'll take offense to that. As a Reds fan, I can assure you Ken never dabbled. Early 2000's? He came to the Reds in 2000, and played 145 games. For the rest of his career he never hit 145 games again. At 30 years old. So sad.

This is the main reason I wish they would just vote Clemens and Bonds in so we dont have to speculate on who did and who didnt anymore. I would never suspect Griffey either but I am sure some voters do.

[cartman]

The arbitrator rules that A-Rod's suspension is now 162 games plus any possible playoff games. So basically, it is the same suspension that he was given last year. He just got to play while on appeal.

Alex Rodriguez's suspension reduced to 162 games - ESPN New York

[Logan]

Sorry, but anyone who assures/guarantees/swears that a player never took PEDs is nuts.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Logan

Sorry, but anyone who assures/guarantees/swears that a player never took PEDs is nuts.

+1

Most of us are homers to varying extents and while I would be crushed if I found out David Wright took PEDs I can't say I would be surprised.

[Butter]

I won't ever rule it out for any player of that era, even my favorites... but if Junior was taking them, he was shitty at it.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by cartman

The arbitrator rules that A-Rod's suspension is now 162 games plus any possible playoff games. So basically, it is the same suspension that he was given last year. He just got to play while on appeal.

Alex Rodriguez's suspension reduced to 162 games - ESPN New York

And get paid right? Probably like 10 million dollars?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I won't ever rule it out for any player of that era, even my favorites... but if Junior was taking them, he was shitty at it.

There's a lot of players who were shitty at it. And you can also have your body betray you in other ways even if you're taking PEDs.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Logan

There's a lot of players who were shitty at it. And you can also have your body betray you in other ways even if you're taking PEDs.

Either way, my point wasn't to imply Griffey took PED's - I think there's a continuum of the likelihood someone did take PED's, with Bonds/Clemens/etc at one end, and Ken Griffey slightly behind Frank Thomas as the two hitters at the other end I would be most surprised about.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Logan

There's a lot of players who were shitty at it. And you can also have your body betray you in other ways even if you're taking PEDs.

Yeah I mean Bonds still had to spend countless hours every day in the gym. I have had friends that have used steriods to bulk up and one of them (single guy with a lot of time) looked really cut and had great results and the other guy just got big biceps but also got fat.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

[IMG]Either way, my point wasn't to imply Griffey took PED's - I think there's a continuum of the likelihood someone did take PED's, with Bonds/Clemens/etc at one end, and Ken Griffey slightly behind Frank Thomas as the two hitters at the other end I would be most surprised about.

Sure, it's definitely fair to say it would be surprising if some players used. But that's very different from being 100% sure someone didn't.

If you made me bet my life on either "every MLB player took some form of steroids/greenies at one point in their career" vs a particular player having 100% never done anything that falls into that category, I'd probably play it safe with the former.

[Logan]

White Sox Hotel Rooming List Reveals Some Great Fake Names

[sterlingice]

Fun stuff

SI

[MrBug708]

7@30 > 10@25

Greater being a better deal in this instance

[PilotMan]

Yay Dodgers.

[cartman]

So I wonder who is going to pick up the tab at the next high school class reunion, Kershaw or Matthew Stafford?

[rowech]

Originally Posted by cartman

So I wonder who is going to pick up the tab at the next high school class reunion, Kershaw or Matthew Stafford?

Stafford will try to but Kershaw will intercept it.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by rowech

Stafford will try to but Kershaw will intercept it.

+1 excellent.