2016-2017 College Basketball Thread

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Not even in the same stratosphere.
Not close.

College Basketball is an absolute cesspool. Blatant, open, bid wars.

And college basketball coaches won't report one another because they're afraid their program will get looked at too. What keeps college football infinitely cleaner (not perfect, but nowhere near what many seem to believe) is college football coaches will police one another and report other programs.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

7-7 football isn't far behind

I'm not even entirely sure what that is ... you mean like summer passing leagues?

[MrBug708]

Yup. Those tournaments are essentially AAU roght down. To the apparal sponsorships

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Yup. Those tournaments are essentially AAU roght down. To the apparal sponsorships

Aside from some (HS) school organized/oriented ones, I literally never hear a word about those around here otherwise.

I know AAU hoopsters, I've known summer/travel baseball players (which are sorta kinda like this), I've known similar for soccer, swimming, gymnastics, even equestrian.

It's never even discussed in my sphere for football. "Elite camps" and especially "elite position camps" absolutely yes, but 7-on-7, nope.

edit to add: my point being that maybe it's a regional thing, not saying it ain't a thing.

[MrBug708]

Must not be a south thing as players are spending a lot of weekends at these passing tournaments

[CU Tiger]

I dont want to start a back and forth war...but frankly anyone who says the two are close in terms of dirtyness simply doesnt know what they are talking about.

College ball players are being paid HUGE money...7 and even 8 figures for their signature with select schools.

Maybe this makes for a good comparison.
Cam Newton's dad allegedly received $300k for his son's signature with Auburn. A generational player, a heisman winner and a guy who led his team to a national championship trophy was worth $300k to the dirtiest program in the game at that time.

Contrast that with a young PG from SC who was moved to a prep school. And sold to a Big 12 program. The kid threatened to not enroll at said school and said he dreamed of playing for Clemson. His AAU coach flew a chartered private jet to town, and told Coach Brownell his "client" wanted to come to Clemson. The going price was $200k up front plus half of any coach contract incentives for winning. Plus he'd have to pay back all the prep school and private housing costs amassed over the last 12 months. He laid the $200k check on his desk so he could see it. The kid played in the Big 12. Wasnt even a starter I dont believe.

Yes some college football guys are getting benefits. College basketball guys are getting bid on in the millions. Millions.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Must not be a south thing as players are spending a lot of weekends at these passing tournaments

I wonder if, maybe, our HS staffs are doing a better job of keeping it under control? I see schools around here organizing their own tournaments several times each summer (will bring in anywhere from 4-24 teams), even drawing some of the supersized schools from down in the metro.

You figure 3-4 weeks of those, and a week of team summer camp, a couple of position/speciality camps, week of family vacation ... that's pretty much the whole summer (we're only out, give or take, for around 8 weeks)

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Aside from some (HS) school organized/oriented ones, I literally never hear a word about those around here otherwise.

I know AAU hoopsters, I've known summer/travel baseball players (which are sorta kinda like this), I've known similar for soccer, swimming, gymnastics, even equestrian.

It's never even discussed in my sphere for football. "Elite camps" and especially "elite position camps" absolutely yes, but 7-on-7, nope.

edit to add: my point being that maybe it's a regional thing, not saying it ain't a thing.

GA high school certainly has their 7-on-7 scene.
Its usually the bigger schools. I know for example Pace Academy, Greyson, Eagle's Landing, Buford, Colquitt County all have teams Ive seen in SC.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I wonder if, maybe, our HS staffs are doing a better job of keeping it under control? I see schools around here organizing their own tournaments several times each summer (will bring in anywhere from 4-24 teams), even drawing some of the supersized schools from down in the metro.

You figure 3-4 weeks of those, and a week of team summer camp, a couple of position/speciality camps, week of family vacation ... that's pretty much the whole summer (we're only out, give or take, for around 8 weeks)

High schools are not part of the equation. These are weekend tournaments and are in spring and summer most of the time and are part of programs that are only 7 on 7 programs.

[Arles]

This is a confusing one for me. I think some of the coaches themselves will be in some trouble for the federal violations (wire fraud, money laundering, etc), but I don't really see the NCAA impact for the schools. Atleast for the assistant coaches, it appears they are charged with accepting bribes from Shoe companies and/or agents to help convince kids declaring for the draft to join that agency/sponser. That seems different than saying they are illegally recruiting the kids (which normally hits the university hard). Unless they can prove that the university benefited from those bribes, I don't see where the NCAA violation occurred. That said, I fully expect the NCAA to hand the death penalty to Arizona, Auburn and USC for this

I'm amazed that the NCAA doesn't investigate these AAU associations. It's not hard to see that most AAU prospects sponsored by Nike go to Nike schools and so forth.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I dont want to start a back and forth war...but frankly anyone who says the two are close in terms of dirtyness simply doesnt know what they are talking about.

College ball players are being paid HUGE money...7 and even 8 figures for their signature with select schools.

Maybe this makes for a good comparison.
Cam Newton's dad allegedly received $300k for his son's signature with Auburn. A generational player, a heisman winner and a guy who led his team to a national championship trophy was worth $300k to the dirtiest program in the game at that time.

Contrast that with a young PG from SC who was moved to a prep school. And sold to a Big 12 program. The kid threatened to not enroll at said school and said he dreamed of playing for Clemson. His AAU coach flew a chartered private jet to town, and told Coach Brownell his "client" wanted to come to Clemson. The going price was $200k up front plus half of any coach contract incentives for winning. Plus he'd have to pay back all the prep school and private housing costs amassed over the last 12 months. He laid the $200k check on his desk so he could see it. The kid played in the Big 12. Wasnt even a starter I dont believe.

Yes some college football guys are getting benefits. College basketball guys are getting bid on in the millions. Millions.

Over a decade ago, think inflation, Reggie Bush recieved a house. The money is there, but while not as great as in basketball, the players receiving money is much greater than in college basketball. But football players don't sell shoes like basketball players do. But calling Cam a heisman winner when the payments were starting is foolish and you know. He was just a hot prospect and a transfer kid at that. A four star kid who signed at UW a cpuple years was rumored to have been given a house in the area. Stories are endless about cash grabs. Howland supposed had to pay 250k for the rights to sign a 5*. Your notion that kids are getting millions on basketball is silly and I am willing to bet you think Clemson is clean as far as recruiting goes, which is probably quite naive

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Over a decade ago, think inflation, Reggie Bush recieved a house. The money is there, but while not as great as in basketball, the players receiving money is much greater than in college basketball. But football players don't sell shoes like basketball players do. But calling Cam a heisman winner when the payments were starting is foolish and you know. He was just a hot prospect and a transfer kid at that. A four star kid who signed at UW a cpuple years was rumored to have been given a house in the area. Stories are endless about cash grabs. Howland supposed had to pay 250k for the rights to sign a 5*. Your notion that kids are getting millions on basketball is silly and I am willing to bet you think Clemson is clean as far as recruiting goes, which is probably quite naive

Clemson is 100% clean as far as basketball recruiting goes.
Sadly millions isnt silly. This will all be coming out now.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Arles

This is a confusing one for me. I think some of the coaches themselves will be in some trouble for the federal violations (wire fraud, money laundering, etc), but I don't really see the NCAA impact for the schools. Atleast for the assistant coaches, it appears they are charged with accepting bribes from Shoe companies and/or agents to help convince kids declaring for the draft to join that agency/sponser. That seems different than saying they are illegally recruiting the kids (which normally hits the university hard). Unless they can prove that the university benefited from those bribes, I don't see where the NCAA violation occurred. That said, I fully expect the NCAA to hand the death penalty to Arizona, Auburn and USC for this

I'm amazed that the NCAA doesn't investigate these AAU associations. It's not hard to see that most AAU prospects sponsored by Nike go to Nike schools and so forth.

Sure there's NCAA implications - if players were taking money from these agents/apparel brands/etc, wouldn't that make them ineligible? And these assistants would have known they were ineligible.

Plus, its strains credulity to think that most/all of the head coaches of said programs weren't aware of shenanigans, even if that acknowledgement was "don't ask, don't tell".

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Over a decade ago, think inflation, Reggie Bush recieved a house. The money is there, but while not as great as in basketball, the players receiving money is much greater than in college basketball. But football players don't sell shoes like basketball players do. But calling Cam a heisman winner when the payments were starting is foolish and you know. He was just a hot prospect and a transfer kid at that. A four star kid who signed at UW a cpuple years was rumored to have been given a house in the area. Stories are endless about cash grabs. Howland supposed had to pay 250k for the rights to sign a 5*. Your notion that kids are getting millions on basketball is silly and I am willing to bet you think Clemson is clean as far as recruiting goes, which is probably quite naive

BTW regarding Cam...he was a known commodity. Florida paid him and then he bolted. Then Auburn paid him again.

Even still the Reggie Bush example makes my point for me. Another Heisman winner, btw, and the payment scheme was so egregious USC found themselves on probation for it. It happens daily in CBB and no one even raises an eye brow.

[Arles]

yeah, the more that I read, the worse it sounds for Arizona. Here's something posted today that would certainly hurt the school if it is correct:

An FBI investigation revealed Richardson took $20,000 in bribes, "some of which Richardson appears to have kept for himself and some of which he appears to have provided to at least one prospective high school basketball player,” a court document said.

That player has been suggested to be 2018 five-star point guard Jahvon Quinerly, since the court document says “player-5” verbally committed to “university-4” (Arizona) “on or about” Aug. 9.

Quinerly committed to Arizona on Aug. 8.

It’s likely not the only player Richardson has paid, as the document says co-defendant Christian Dawkins, a former sports agent, referred to a current player at “university-4” (Arizona) “who had already received payments.”

The court document says Richardson also used the bribe money "to use his influence over the student-athletes he coached to pressure them" to hire Dawkins as their manager and Munish Sood, another co-defendant, as their financial adviser, according to the document.

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basket...iting-quinerly

[Kodos]

U of L confirms its basketball program is included in federal br - WDRB 41 Louisville News

[Arles]

Here's an article with specifics from the indictment:

Between February and September, co-defendants Christian Dawkins and Munish Sood paid Richardson $20,000 in bribes, "some of which Richardson appears to have kept for himself and some of which he appears to have provided to at least one prospective high school basketball player" in order to recruit the player to come to UA, the complaint says.

In exchange for the money, Richardson agreed "to use his influence over the student-athletes he coached to pressure them" to hire Dawkins as manager and Sood as financial adviser, according to the complaint.

Dawkins, a sports agent who was fired by ASM Sports earlier this year, received money to start a new company from Sood, founder and CEO of the Princeton Advisory Group, an investment services company, according to the complaint.

An FBI wiretap recorded a June conversation between Dawkins and Richardson, in which the two discuss a high school basketball player that Richardson was going to pay to come play for the UA, the complaint says.

On June 20, Richardson met with Sood and an undercover FBI agent in New York and accepted a $5,000 cash bribe.

A few weeks later, Dawkins told an undercover agent that Richardson needed another $15,000 to secure the player, who Dawkins identified as a "top point guard in the country," according to the complaint.

On July 20, in a meeting at Sood's New Jersey office, Richardson collected the $15,000 and told Sood and an undercover agent that the player in question had committed, but his mother was asking for money because "she didn't know what I was already doing for her son," the complaint says.

In a meeting in August, Richardson told Dawkins and Sood which current UA basketball players he intended to influence to sign with Dawkins new management company, the complaint says.

Richardson is facing charges of conspiracy to commit bribery, solicitation of bribes by an agent of a federally funded organization, conspiracy to commit honest services fraud, wire fraud conspiracy and travel act conspiracy.

Arizona Wildcats assistant Book Richardson took bribes, paid UA recruits, indictment says | Bruce Pascoe's blog | tucson.com

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

A four star kid who signed at UW a cpuple years was rumored to have been given a house in the area.

OK, I'll bite - who is the player in this rumor?

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

OK, I'll bite - who is the player in this rumor?

McGraw. I'm not sure how legit the rumor is but I've ran into 2 different people in the SJB program who have mentioned it.

[Logan]

Hang on...are you saying that some basketball recruits are literally being given $10+ million to sign with a school? Or are they securing an eventual $10+ million shoe deal down the road by signing with a school?

The latter I'd buy, with some outs.

[JPhillips]

And now we're all going to pretend the head coaches had no idea what was going on, right? They'll all be shocked that gambling was going on in their establishments.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

McGraw. I'm not sure how legit the rumor is but I've ran into 2 different people in the SJB program who have mentioned it.

Hmm. Color me skeptical that shenanigans are happening under Petersen, but there's not a ton you can do about rogue boosters if they want to meddle. I'd be much more likely to believe that kind of thing was happening under Sark, and in fact it's pretty clear that Lupoi was working those kinds of angles.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

GA high school certainly has their 7-on-7 scene.
Its usually the bigger schools. I know for example Pace Academy, Greyson, Eagle's Landing, Buford, Colquitt County all have teams Ive seen in SC.

Some of those same schools have (IIRC) played in the local tournaments I mentioned earlier.

But all participate -- to my knowledge -- as a team (i.e. it's Buford or Grayson, not 2 guys from Buford, 1 from Lowndes, 2 from Archer, etc).

Maybe the school ones are just the scrubs, I dunno. {shrug}

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

High schools are not part of the equation. These are weekend tournaments and are in spring and summer most of the time and are part of programs that are only 7 on 7 programs.

Just to clarify what I meant: the only 7-on-7 around here I've ever heard of it summer & is tied in like I described. Hell, hosting/running those tournaments is apparently a bit of a cash cow for the schools who hold them.

In spring, the only thing I'm aware of football wise is spring practice. Even the various camps are usually summer events (since there are still a lot of multi-sport athletes around)

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Hmm. Color me skeptical that shenanigans are happening under Petersen, but there's not a ton you can do about rogue boosters if they want to meddle. I'd be much more likely to believe that kind of thing was happening under Sark, and in fact it's pretty clear that Lupoi was working those kinds of angles.

There is a lot more to his recruitment though that I do know and while not illegal on UWs end, isn't really a Petersen saintly quality either. I'm skeptical on the house fwiw

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

There is a lot more to his recruitment though that I do know and while not illegal on UWs end, isn't really a Petersen saintly quality either. I'm skeptical on the house fwiw

You mean the academic fraud? I was actually a bit surprised the UW ended up admitting him.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

You mean the academic fraud? I was actually a bit surprised the UW ended up admitting him.

Yup.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And now we're all going to pretend the head coaches had no idea what was going on, right? They'll all be shocked that gambling was going on in their establishments.

I think it's plausible. That's the purpose of all of these lackeys. It's like when a pro athlete utilizes a "nutritionist" and legitimately has no idea what's going into his body.

Which is why it's so important, in both cases, to punish based on responsibility rather than just proof of knowledge. Any rule violation at a university should result in penalties for the head coach of that sport regardless of whether it can be proven that the coach actually knew what was going on, either broadly or in the details.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Which is why it's so important, in both cases, to punish based on responsibility rather than just proof of knowledge. Any rule violation at a university should result in penalties for the head coach of that sport regardless of whether it can be proven that the coach actually knew what was going on, either broadly or in the details.

I dunno if you can legitimately go that far. I mean, if an assistant goes out & kills somebody, how is the head coach liable for his crime? He had to have some reasonable expectation that the crime would take place, perhaps even giving him both means & opportunity.

In your suggestion, it almost presumes that every assistant can be expected to do something against the rules & therefore the head coach is responsible simply by virtue of hiring anyone for the job.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I dunno if you can legitimately go that far. I mean, if an assistant goes out & kills somebody, how is the head coach liable for his crime? He had to have some reasonable expectation that the crime would take place, perhaps even giving him both means & opportunity.

In your suggestion, it almost presumes that every assistant can be expected to do something against the rules & therefore the head coach is responsible simply by virtue of hiring anyone for the job.

I don't think murder is an NCAA rules violation, but if it is, I don't think it should be. That gets into the discussion here in the Sandusky thread about the NCAA's role in policing criminal conduct.

But if an assistant does something truly on his own to violate an NCAA rule - like paying a recruit to come to the school, I'm fine with that being on the head coach even if direct knowledge or intent to direct the assistant to commit the violation can't be proven. It seems to be pretty easy to setup a program that insulates the head coach from that kind of thing. Assistants are expendable, and scummy ones have enhanced value. If head coaches aren't accountable for their hires, then it only makes sense to hire the scummy candidates, those that you know have connections with agents, apparel companies, financial advisers, boosters, etc - anyone to give you an edge. If a head coach was responsible for his hires, those things might be red flags rather than selling points when hiring staff.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't think murder is an NCAA rules violation, but if it is, I don't think it should be. That gets into the discussion here in the Sandusky thread about the NCAA's role in policing criminal conduct.

But if an assistant does something truly on his own to violate an NCAA rule - like paying a recruit to come to the school, I'm fine with that being on the head coach even if direct knowledge or intent to direct the assistant to commit the violation can't be proven. It seems to be pretty easy to setup a program that insulates the head coach from that kind of thing. Assistants are expendable, and scummy ones have enhanced value. If head coaches aren't accountable for their hires, then it only makes sense to hire the scummy candidates, those that you know have connections with agents, apparel companies, financial advisers, boosters, etc - anyone to give you an edge. If a head coach was responsible for his hires, those things might be red flags rather than selling points when hiring staff.

NCAA already set a standard with Pitino's 5 game suspension.

[Logan]

If one of my directs fucks up something major, it's very likely that I'll be out on my ass as well.

Not sure why we hold the $5MM coaches to a different standard.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

But if an assistant does something truly on his own to violate an NCAA rule - like paying a recruit to come to the school, I'm fine with that being on the head coach even if direct knowledge or intent to direct the assistant to commit the violation can't be proven.

{Shrug} Just seems like a highly unreasonable standard to me.

Anybody can simply flake out, it happens, in every walk of life.

Not sure how you hold that against someone who had no reasonable expectation of it occurring.

[molson]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

NCAA already set a standard with Pitino's 5 game suspension.

That seemed light to me, especially when you consider the prior history of his programs. Which goes way back to the 70s when Pitino was actually one of the scummy assistants of the type that he's always relied on in his head coaching career. (paying players, etc.) I don't think it's just crazy bad luck that people he hires pay recruits with money or sex and are otherwise mentioned in these charging documents.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Logan

If one of my directs fucks up something major, it's very likely that I'll be out on my ass as well.

That's true in most businesses outside big-time college sports. If an employee is fucking up something work-related over a long period of time, it'd actually be considered a BAD thing for the supervisor if he had no clue it was going on. Because he's the supervisor, his job is to supervise and ensure his underlying aren't running round fucking things up.

Of course, college basketball is different because scummy underlings are good for the program and for the head coach as long as the head coach can avoid creating evidence of personal knowledge of the rules violations, and can hire the right people that will get the job done independently, without implicating the head coach.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by molson

That seemed light to me, especially when you consider the prior history of his programs. Which goes way back to the 70s when Pitino was actually one of the scummy assistants of the type that he's always relied on in his head coaching career. (paying players, etc.) I don't think it's just crazy bad luck that people he hires pay recruits with money or sex and are otherwise mentioned in these charging documents.

Of course it was and of course he is. But we know what the severity will be for the elite schools, just like when players were getting paid at Duke or institutional academic fraud was being committed at UNC.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

{Shrug} Just seems like a highly unreasonable standard to me.

Anybody can simply flake out, it happens, in every walk of life.

Not sure how you hold that against someone who had no reasonable expectation of it occurring.

What about when there are terrible employees at restaurants? Isn't it on the manager to make sure he has good employees or find better ones? He's not there every second of every day but they generally either are too stupid to know and should be fired, or don't care enough to do anything, and should also be fired

[CU Tiger]

Rumors out that a 10AM press conference tomorrow to announce Pitino stepping down

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Rumors out that a 10AM press conference tomorrow to announce Pitino stepping down

He doesn't have much of a choice after his over the top outrage over the escorts. It looks like he's completely lost fan support as well.

This is really, really bad and they're already on probation. Louisville may end up getting the worst NCAA sanctions we've seen in quite some time.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

What about when there are terrible employees at restaurants? Isn't it on the manager to make sure he has good employees or find better ones? He's not there every second of every day but they generally either are too stupid to know and should be fired, or don't care enough to do anything, and should also be fired

Which is a fine analogy if the question is whether a coach performs his/her duties adequately.

I don't expect -- absent some reason to suspect or suggest it -- the restaurant manager to know whether the employee is dealing crack on the side when they walk over to the c-store next door to get a Red Bull while on their break.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I don't expect -- absent some reason to suspect or suggest it -- the restaurant manager to know whether the employee is dealing crack on the side when they walk over to the c-store next door to get a Red Bull while on their break.

But these NCAA violations are on-the-job issues, not crimes being committed in employees' personal lives. If Pitino gets the benefit of a 5-star recruit (the big salary, the wins, everyone calling him a genius), he deserves at least some of the consequences for how the staff members he chose to hire (who he is responsible for supervising), got that player to Louisville. It's pretty obvious why Pitino hires these types of assistants who are capable of playing the game and getting these guys without creating evidence of provable direct involvement on Pitino's part. Again, is it just bad luck that these top coaches can't find ethical assistants who follow the rules? Pitino could hire almost anyone, it's no accident that he ends up with who he ends up with. If head coaches were more responsible for the rules violations of their subordinates the hiring process would be a lot different and much different criteria would be valued.

Edit: Pitino had his equipment manager take that woman he knocked up at the restaurant to get an abortion. And then the equipment manager married the woman 8 months later and the three of them were all a happy part of the Louisville basketball community (for a while). These are not the ordinary duties of an equipment manager. But these are the kinds of people Pitino surrounds himself with. People who will bury bodies for him if he needs that. These are not random "flake outs" when recruits are bought with sex and money. This is part of the program. A feature, not a bug. Keeping the coach's hands clean is part of that. And I'm specifically talking about Pitino here but it appears that this kind of thing is pretty widespread in big-time college basketball. That's the culture. Coaches who hire based on ethics and character are at a huge disadvantage.

And it looks like Pitino is sticking with what has worked for him in the past. Except he's adding the wrinkle that Louisville is a victim.

Jason Riley on Twitter: "Statement from Rick Pitino through attorney Steve Pence. https://t.co/HcVzmnJwUc"

[dacman]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Louisville may end up getting the worst NCAA sanctions we've seen in quite some time.

Pat Forde is already calling for the death penalty.

[tarcone]

What a mess

[Logan]

Jon I thought you were well above this attempt at trolling.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by molson

I think it's plausible. That's the purpose of all of these lackeys. It's like when a pro athlete utilizes a "nutritionist" and legitimately has no idea what's going into his body.

Which is why it's so important, in both cases, to punish based on responsibility rather than just proof of knowledge. Any rule violation at a university should result in penalties for the head coach of that sport regardless of whether it can be proven that the coach actually knew what was going on, either broadly or in the details.

We basically agree, with the slight difference that I think the hiring is done with at least some knowledge of what the assistant coach will do. Either way, head coaches absolutely need to take a hit when these things happen.

[Atocep]

Coaches know who the sleazy recruiters are.

This falls under the same umbrella as football coaches whining that they should be allowed to sign 35 guys because 10-15 of the players they recruited are academic risks and they're hoping they miraculously get their test score to qualify. The answer to that is recruit less academic risks. The answer here is stop hiring guys that you know are going to end up in the NCAA's crosshairs. No sympathy for coaches that find themselves in hot water because of an assistant they hired.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

But these NCAA violations are on-the-job issues, not crimes being committed in employees' personal lives.

You DO realize that I'm using an analogy, right? The purpose of which is to show that you can't always perfectly anticipate what someone else will do.

Is it better for you if I use, say, somebody cheating on their wife? It isn't criminal (in most states). But it sure holds some weight when blame is allocated (via distribution of assets). Should the head coach gets some portion of the blame, pay some of the price, if the assistant cheats on his wife?

That's basically what you're saying here: that he's guilty -- and responsible -- for what someone else did on their own time / own volition.

If you can tie them to the crime / offense / violation in some way beyond any hiring responsibility, fine by me if you hang 'em with the same rope from the same height tree.

But I've known killers who I never dreamt would do such a thing.
I've occasionally been shocked to discover the so-and-so had an affair.
How is this any different, if you have no knowledge? If they suddenly show up driving a Lambo and wearing a different Rolex every day, you probably ought to be making some inquiries. But I just don't see how you hang the head coach for what an assistant might very well be working very diligently to try to keep hidden.

Maybe something else got lost in this thread somewhere? I'm talking about coaches in general (which is how I took the o.p. on that sidebar to be meant), this isn't a defense of Pitino or anybody else in particular. I'm talking about what is reasonable as a general standard, before any mitigating circumstances are considered.

[Logan]

If you remove the whole accountability aspect, what you are saying is that a coach could quite literally tell an assistant "Go meet Booster Jones in the parking lot of the Walmart, where he will hand you a bag of money to hand deliver to Recruit Smith so that he signs with us". And short of any recordings of that conversation, or an admission of guilt from either party, he would never be able to face any kind of punishment.

[albionmoonlight]

Couple thoughts:

You have to hand it to Pitino. In a world as dirty as college sports recruiting, to end up going down in history as "the skeezy one" is pretty impressive.

If Louisville does get the death penalty, doesn't that end up putting the whole town of Louisville into economic turmoil? I've never been, but I assume that Louisville is like most college towns in that the sports ends up driving the entertainment economy. I know that if UNC basketball ended up going away for 2 years, most of downtown Chapel Hill would go away with it. The bars and restaurants wouldn't make enough to stay open.

I have no opinion on whether they should or should not get the death penalty. Just noting that the decision will have repercussions far beyond the team or even the school.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You DO realize that I'm using an analogy, right? The purpose of which is to show that you can't always perfectly anticipate what someone else will do.

Is it better for you if I use, say, somebody cheating on their wife? It isn't criminal (in most states). But it sure holds some weight when blame is allocated (via distribution of assets). Should the head coach gets some portion of the blame, pay some of the price, if the assistant cheats on his wife?

That's basically what you're saying here: that he's guilty -- and responsible -- for what someone else did on their own time / own volition.

If you can tie them to the crime / offense / violation in some way beyond any hiring responsibility, fine by me if you hang 'em with the same rope from the same height tree.

But I've known killers who I never dreamt would do such a thing.
I've occasionally been shocked to discover the so-and-so had an affair.
How is this any different, if you have no knowledge? If they suddenly show up driving a Lambo and wearing a different Rolex every day, you probably ought to be making some inquiries. But I just don't see how you hang the head coach for what an assistant might very well be working very diligently to try to keep hidden.

Maybe something else got lost in this thread somewhere? I'm talking about coaches in general (which is how I took the o.p. on that sidebar to be meant), this isn't a defense of Pitino or anybody else in particular. I'm talking about what is reasonable as a general standard, before any mitigating circumstances are considered.

No, I think what he's saying is your analogies are wrong. The restaurant worker dealing crack isn't analogous to an assistant coach paying players because it isn't job-related. Neither is adultery.

The better analogy would be the restaurant worker taking kickbacks from a supplier to purchase tainted meat to serve at the restaurant. In that case, you don't think it's fair to hold the manager responsible for the acts of one his/her delegates that is directly related to job responsibilities? The manager's primary job is to oversee operations and delegate tasks to assistants. If one of them does something wrong/illegal related to the tasks they are handling for the business, the manager's job is rightly in jeopardy.

Look at the Equifax situation. Heads rolled. My guess is those top execs did not have personal knowledge about how or why the breach occurred, but they were held accountable for it.