Big 10 Expansion Thread -Big Ten ready for a playoff .. finally?

[Ksyrup]

@DanWetzel: Source: Bringing in Notre Dame will allow ACC to ask for additional compensation in ESPN deal

[Young Drachma]

So who is going to be Team 16?

[Ksyrup]

When does ND's deal with NBC end? I wonder if they are only partial member now because of that. Maybe they become full member after deal ends?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

When does ND's deal with NBC end? I wonder if they are only partial member now because of that. Maybe they become full member after deal ends?

When their deal with NBC ends and they aren't happy with the result, don't they still weigh which conference they want to be in: Big Ten, for instance?

SI

[Ksyrup]

Joe Schad ‏@schadjoe
The Big East contends ND must pay $5 million and give 27 months notice

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

When their deal with NBC ends and they aren't happy with the result, don't they still weigh which conference they want to be in: Big Ten, for instance?

SI

Depends if they are subject to the increased ACC buyout now. Or, if they're still member of Big East. *snicker*

[Easy Mac]

I don't see why a lesser conference like the ACC wouldn't just let ND keep their NBC deal, even if it was a full member. It's only for home games, and they'd more than make up for it by having ND in conference for all the other games that ESPN would pay them for.

[Ksyrup]

I'm not saying they would demand that they give it up, but maybe that's part of the deal that isn't nailed down now but could be when the deal is up.

[SirFozzie]

Some more details:

Updated: Notre Dame to schedule ACC football opponents as partial member | CollegeFootballTalk

A) ACC exit fee raised to $50 million (finally killing the FSU etcetera rumors)

B) Notre Dame will play each ACC team in football no less then once every three years. Will play five games a year versus ACC teams.

In short, it's pretty much a giant leap towards full ACC membership, probably within 3-5 years.

[sterlingice]

So, what better? Big XII or ACC?

SI

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

So, what better? Big XII or ACC?

SI

For Notre Dame? ACC everyday and twice on Sunday.

[bronconick]

I bet anything they re-up with NBC by 2015 and won't be joining the ACC football until at least the next playoff system gets debated in the mid 2020's. Nothing in the new system makes ND's independence an iffy proposition. This gets them better bowl deals, gets their other sports into a better conference, and eases their late season scheduling as an Indy.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

For Notre Dame? ACC everyday and twice on Sunday.

I was thinking overall conference strength. If we figure there are 3 solid conferences (SEC, Pac 12, and Big 10) and only 4 super conferences survive, which is picked apart by the remaining 3 conferences?

SI

[Toddzilla]

FWIW a very respectable guy in-the-know at VT says that since the ND announcement, there has been a great deal of discussions between the SEC and VT/NCSU as well as the BigXII and FSU/Clemson. Not sure how this fits into the $50M exit fee restructuring, but there you have it.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

FWIW a very respectable guy in-the-know at VT says that since the ND announcement, there has been a great deal of discussions between the SEC and VT/NCSU as well as the BigXII and FSU/Clemson. Not sure how this fits into the $50M exit fee restructuring, but there you have it.

It will all depend on when the new exit fee takes effect. I doubt it is instantaneously.

[Ksyrup]

Has this been voted on and agreed to yet, or is this just the announcement of an agreement in principle (both with ND and about the $50M buyout)? If it's not binding, I guess that could ramp up exit discussions. Although at this point we're beyond August 15th, so you're talking about having to pay, I'm sure, and even steeper price to be able to start in a new conference by next fall. August 15th was the cut-off for exit announcements that would be effective by next JUly or August 1 (not sure the specific date).

[Ksyrup]

Would be kinda funny if within a week the ACC went from power move to secure ND to having 2 or 4 teams leave before the new exit fee was binding, and then of course have ND pull out once they see everyone bailing.

Funny only if my team is one of the teams leaving, of course.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

FWIW a very respectable guy in-the-know at VT says that since the ND announcement, there has been a great deal of discussions between the SEC and VT/NCSU as well as the BigXII and FSU/Clemson. Not sure how this fits into the $50M exit fee restructuring, but there you have it.

I've seen the same type of stuff from WVU folks.

Had also heard that FSU had still been talking with the SEC up until a few days ago, but the SEC finally made it clear that they were not taking another Florida team.

If the $50M thing is instant, something could happen soon. The news seems to have made it clear that the ND vote was unanimous, but the folks on the WVU boards are saying that 4 ACC schools did not agree to the increased buyout and they actually needed to use Syracuse and Pitt to get over the 2/3rds necessary. Seems like it would be hard to bind those teams.

[Ksyrup]

@ACCSports: ACC confirms that votes on exit fee and ND entry were unanimous.

Doesn't say when it goes into effect, but the votes already happened.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

i don't really care one way or the other. you can't get an honest opinion on college sports from anyone that isn't influenced by some form of homerism but...

i coulda swore i'd read (maybe here) that the reason ND chose the ACC over the big ten was demographics. all the growth is on the coasts.

long term trends and whatnot

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

So who is going to be Team 16?

If you forced me to guess on the eventual answer, I'd say Georgetown. They'd come in as a 16th member in everything but football, leaving football with 14 official members & pushing back a need to add anyone else until sometime in the 2020's whenever the next BCS contract is negotiated.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

@ACCSports: ACC confirms that votes on exit fee and ND entry were unanimous.

Doesn't say when it goes into effect, but the votes already happened.

Yeah, that is kind of strange to say that they've agreed to it, but nothing else. You'd think that if was considered already in place, they'd make a bigger deal out of it.

[Ksyrup]

I don't know how these things work - does each school take it back and have it voted on by their board of regents or equivalent, or do the school reps have the power to bind the schools with that vote?

I can't imagine Swofford would risk blowing up the conference if he didn't have this already sewn up, so I can't imagine any of the rumors are true. More likely wishful thinking/media looking to make a quick ad buck on the last gasp ACC defection rumors for awhile.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cartman

You'd think that if was considered already in place, they'd make a bigger deal out of it.

Not if, just for example, there was no longer (never?) any serious consideration of any current member leaving in the first place.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not if, just for example, there was no longer (never?) any serious consideration of any current member leaving in the first place.

There had to have been something, otherwise why go all the way up to $50 million or 3 years operating budget? That is definitely sending a message to quash any inkling of someone leaving.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If you forced me to guess on the eventual answer, I'd say Georgetown. They'd come in as a 16th member in everything but football, leaving football with 14 official members & pushing back a need to add anyone else until sometime in the 2020's whenever the next BCS contract is negotiated.

I would think Georgetown or Villanova, but would give the edge to 'Nova. I would think the ACC already has ownership of whatever market Georgetown might bring (between Maryland/VPI/UVA), but dipping a toe in Philadelphia would give them market and recruiting exposure in a new area that is consistent with, but notably absent from, their footprint.

[bronconick]

The $50 million takes effect immediately. The Big XII is going to be looking at Louisville and Cincy. The money difference simply isn't big enough.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

georgetown would be good. great academically. strengthens the hoops conference

the irony of all this is the debate on the horizon about academic institutions sponsoring a sport that may or may not cause debilitating brain injury

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

FWIW a very respectable guy in-the-know at VT says that since the ND announcement, there has been a great deal of discussions between the SEC and VT/NCSU as well as the BigXII and FSU/Clemson. Not sure how this fits into the $50M exit fee restructuring, but there you have it.

Am I reading your post correctly? There have been a great deal of discussions since the ND announcement? So, since this morning?

That seems strange.

Maybe discussions leading up to the ND announcement, which triggered the exit fee increase?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

@ACCSports: ACC confirms that votes on exit fee and ND entry were unanimous.

Doesn't say when it goes into effect, but the votes already happened.

Not sure who in the ACC "confirmed" this, but...

Warchant.com ‏@Warchant
Florida State BOT Chair Allan Bense says #FSU voted against the exit fee bump to $50 million. So did Maryland

[Ksyrup]

"President Barron voted against it. I personally think that $50 million is punitive. I'm not sure that holds up," said Bense, who was named the chairman of the Board of Trustees for a two-year term in June. Bense also said that Maryland voted against the increased buyout. "I'm not implying that there's going to be any changes, but $50 million is a lot of money."

According to Bense, if Florida State desired to make a move at any point in the years to come, the payout would make it "very difficult."

"I haven't talked with a lawyer about it, but that's almost punitive, you know?"

ACC Commissioner John Swofford said that the increased exit fee goes into effect for all 15 member schools immediately including Notre Dame.

[bronconick]

Well, now you know why the ACC will never have a grant of rights.

[timmynausea]

That's hilarious that FSU is already coming out against it publicly. Really, though, even $50 million isn't insurmountable if both sides want to make it happen. If the current Big 12 schools each pitched in a million per year for 5 years, that'd cover FSU's exit fee for them. For a lot of those schools - Baylor, Texas Tech, TCU, WVU, etc. - they could easily get left out if the Big 12 isn't the 4th super conference, so that investment could look pretty reasonable.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

"President Barron voted against it. I personally think that $50 million is punitive. I'm not sure that holds up," said Bense, who was named the chairman of the Board of Trustees for a two-year term in June. Bense also said that Maryland voted against the increased buyout. "I'm not implying that there's going to be any changes, but $50 million is a lot of money."

According to Bense, if Florida State desired to make a move at any point in the years to come, the payout would make it "very difficult."

"I haven't talked with a lawyer about it, but that's almost punitive, you know?"

ACC Commissioner John Swofford said that the increased exit fee goes into effect for all 15 member schools immediately including Notre Dame.

I'd agree with the FSU BOT chairman. $50M is pretty ridiculous. Especially when their next door neighbors, the SEC, have a $0 exit fee. At some point, you have to realize if you have people wanting to leave, maybe there's a reason they want to leave.

[bronconick]

I think they're saying this now to cover their bases if they wanted to leave 5-10 years down the road to give them a few avenues to negotiate the # down some. Otherwise, there's no reason to really mention that you voted against it. I believe Missouri and Nebraska at least paid less then what was originally required.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Some more details:

Updated: Notre Dame to schedule ACC football opponents as partial member | CollegeFootballTalk

A) ACC exit fee raised to $50 million (finally killing the FSU etcetera rumors)

B) Notre Dame will play each ACC team in football no less then once every three years. Will play five games a year versus ACC teams.

In short, it's pretty much a giant leap towards full ACC membership, probably within 3-5 years.

Exit fees really don't mean shit if a school wants to move bad enough and the conference they're moving to wants them bad enough.

Supposedly the football powers in the ACC aren't happy with this. FSU, VPI, Clemson mainly. I've heard that the Big 12 is happy as this might be what finally gets FSU to make a move.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by bronconick

Otherwise, there's no reason to really mention that you voted against it.

Unless you were looking to leave very soon, which is exactly what's been rumored with those two members.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I've seen the same type of stuff from WVU folks.

Had also heard that FSU had still been talking with the SEC up until a few days ago, but the SEC finally made it clear that they were not taking another Florida team.

If the $50M thing is instant, something could happen soon. The news seems to have made it clear that the ND vote was unanimous, but the folks on the WVU boards are saying that 4 ACC schools did not agree to the increased buyout and they actually needed to use Syracuse and Pitt to get over the 2/3rds necessary. Seems like it would be hard to bind those teams.

SU doesn't have voting rights yet but was consulted so this simply isn't true

[Marmel]

The ACC football 'powers' aren't going anywhere. They just like to bitch to make it seem like they have all this power and influence. I'm not sure what they claim they are so unhappy with. You got FSU, VPI, Clemson, and Miami (well not right now) and they are a step down from the top programs in other conferences. They should be very happy to have an arrangement with ND and picking up another nice game on their schedule every year or two. They are not going to make significantly more money anywhere else. The buy out fee is huge now. They are in a north to south Atlantic Coast conference that fits right in their geography. What exactly do they want the Swofford to do, bring in Texas and Oklahoma? Bring in Michigan? Bama maybe? Who they fuck do the ACC football powers think they are going to get to join the ACC?

If they are the powers of the ACC they better start acting like it on the field, because that hasn't been happening lately. And if they want out, see ya, have fun becoming even more mediocre in the SEC or Big 10/12 (the more southern midwest conference).

[Chubby]

I get a kick out of the "$50 million is punitive" garbage. Of $20 million, the old buyout, was fine but multiplying by 2.5 times? OH NOES!!!

The ACC was and is run by basketball, they are just smarter than the Big East on football matters

[gstelmack]

Isn't the whole point of the exit fee to be punitive so it's a detterent? If it's not punitive, it's not a deterrent, right?

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Isn't the whole point of the exit fee to be punitive so it's a detterent? If it's not punitive, it's not a deterrent, right?

stop making sense

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Marmel

The ACC football 'powers' aren't going anywhere. They just like to bitch to make it seem like they have all this power and influence. I'm not sure what they claim they are so unhappy with. You got FSU, VPI, Clemson, and Miami (well not right now) and they are a step down from the top programs in other conferences. They should be very happy to have an arrangement with ND and picking up another nice game on their schedule every year or two. They are not going to make significantly more money anywhere else. The buy out fee is huge now. They are in a north to south Atlantic Coast conference that fits right in their geography. What exactly do they want the Swofford to do, bring in Texas and Oklahoma? Bring in Michigan? Bama maybe? Who they fuck do the ACC football powers think they are going to get to join the ACC?

If they are the powers of the ACC they better start acting like it on the field, because that hasn't been happening lately. And if they want out, see ya, have fun becoming even more mediocre in the SEC or Big 10/12 (the more southern midwest conference).

FWIW, I do agree. I don't think FSU or anyone makes a move. This probably leads to the Big 12 schools trying to get Texas to budge on expansion and make one last play at FSU, but it's unlikely. The only thing that could maybe change that is if the SEC got serious about going to 16.

Notre Dame will mean more money for ACC schools, but anyone that's followed the Big East knows what the ACC is getting into here and hearing talk about Notre Dame eventually joining in all sports is the exact same stuff Big East fans were wishing for from the start. It's not going happen. This was about finding a home for the non-football sports and getting a bigger paycheck for it than the Big East was going to provide going forward. This gives Notre Dame's other sports a home, gives football bowl affiliation, and allows them to keep their deal with NBC. There's absolutely no reason for them consider bringing football into a conference when conferences are willing to make deals like this with them.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Isn't the whole point of the exit fee to be punitive so it's a detterent? If it's not punitive, it's not a deterrent, right?

No, it's a liquidated damages clause which allows for a agreed-upon amount to approximate the amount of money lost by breaching a contract (or in this case by-laws). They are not meant to be a penalty, but to approximate actual damages in situations where such a determination would be costly.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Atocep

FWIW, I do agree. I don't think FSU or anyone makes a move. This probably leads to the Big 12 schools trying to get Texas to budge on expansion and make one last play at FSU, but it's unlikely. The only thing that could maybe change that is if the SEC got serious about going to 16.

Notre Dame will mean more money for ACC schools, but anyone that's followed the Big East knows what the ACC is getting into here and hearing talk about Notre Dame eventually joining in all sports is the exact same stuff Big East fans were wishing for from the start. It's not going happen. This was about finding a home for the non-football sports and getting a bigger paycheck for it than the Big East was going to provide going forward. This gives Notre Dame's other sports a home, gives football bowl affiliation, and allows them to keep their deal with NBC. There's absolutely no reason for them consider bringing football into a conference when conferences are willing to make deals like this with them.

There is a HUGE difference between the ND-ACC deal and ND-Big East deal. As ND's power continues to erode, they will be forced to join a conference at some point. It's just not today, but they are certainly far closer than they ever have been.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I was thinking overall conference strength. If we figure there are 3 solid conferences (SEC, Pac 12, and Big 10) and only 4 super conferences survive, which is picked apart by the remaining 3 conferences?

SI

Probably the Big 12. Texas and OU are bigger prizes to be had than anything the ACC has to offer since the basketball schools there aren't relevant in football.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by sooner333

No, it's a liquidated damages clause which allows for a agreed-upon amount to approximate the amount of money lost by breaching a contract (or in this case by-laws). They are not meant to be a penalty, but to approximate actual damages in situations where such a determination would be costly.

Exactly. Liquidated damages clauses that are a punitive in nature are often struck. I think that was the entire purpose of the comment and specifically the use of the term punitive.

[timmynausea]

ND actually did agree to play 3 BE teams per year in football, including all 8 of the teams on a rotating home and home basis, back in 2005. They never lived up to the agreement, however, and it didn't seem like the BE commissioner did anything to enforce it.

Notre Dame, Big East agree to series of football games
By Mathew Keller
FOR THE TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Saturday, May 28, 2005

Notre Dame and the Big East have agreed to a series of games starting in 2009.

The Irish, a member of the Big East in all sports except football, will play three Big East teams each football season on a home-and-home basis. All eight conference teams will face the Irish.

The news, hinted at for months, came after Big East meetings in Ponte Vedra, Fla., where Notre Dame athletic director Kevin White first confirmed the games.

"We told (Big East Commissioner) Mike Tranghese not to expect us to become members if we did this," said Notre Dame associate athletic director John Heisler. "But the Big East has been a very beneficial relationship for us, and Mike T. encouraged us to do what we could, specifically if we would consider the prospect of making more of a commitment."

Pitt had already signed Notre Dame to an eight-game deal from 2006-2015, in addition to this year's season opener at Heinz Field.

The Panthers' games will count towards Notre Dame's three games each year.

Notre Dame did not ask for a two-for-one deal, Heisler said. Notre Dame will play one of the three Big East teams on a yearly basis -- expected to be Rutgers or Connecticut -- at the Meadowlands in New Jersey, reportedly for recruiting and alumni purposes.

"We have every reason to want the Big East to work," Heisler said. "It was the most attractive and might have been the only option for us to remain independent in football. So if we can do anything to help, why not do it?"

Pitt athletic director Jeff Long said the Panthers were also negotiating with and expected to sign contracts to play several Big Ten schools. Because of Notre Dame and other schools, Long said, the window of opportunity is closing quickly for a series with Penn State.

Pitt did have four of its five non-conference games for 2006 scheduled. Long previously said the Panthers will play Bowling Green, Toledo and Michigan State, all at home.

Heisler and West Virginia Deputy Director of Athletics Mike Parsons said that their respective schools have yet to sign any Big East-Notre Dame contracts, but that talks were in the works.

WVU is expected to play Notre Dame within the first two years of the deal, in 2009 or 2010.

The Big East-Notre Dame deal comes on the heels of the conference's lawsuit settlement with the ACC following the move of Miami, Virginia Tech and Boston College.

The ACC paid the Big East $5 million to cover legal costs and agreed to play nine interconference games between 2008 and '12. Pitt will play in three of those; WVU two.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Chubby

I get a kick out of the "$50 million is punitive" garbage. Of $20 million, the old buyout, was fine but multiplying by 2.5 times? OH NOES!!!

The ACC was and is run by basketball, they are just smarter than the Big East on football matters

Yeah, I didn't realize they still play football in the ACC.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by bronconick

If the rumor that Dodds put a kibash on any expansion while courting Notre Dame is true, he just shot the Big XII in the foot.

I think it was the agreement with Texas for a game a year that killed the Big 12's chances. ND wants the exposure to demographically-exploding Texas, but once they had that as a side deal, there wasn't enough incentive to join up and play teams like Kansas and West Virginia. But getting games near East Coast alumni, while also increasing exposure and potential recruiting benefits further south into expanding markets like Florida/Georgia, along with a side deal for the Texas market? Win-win.

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

i coulda swore i'd read (maybe here) that the reason ND chose the ACC over the big ten was demographics. all the growth is on the coasts.

long term trends and whatnot

Yup, demographics and alumni base.

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

Probably the Big 12. Texas and OU are bigger prizes to be had than anything the ACC has to offer since the basketball schools there aren't relevant in football.

The only way Pac-expansion up to a 16-team superconference makes sense is with Texas and Oklahoma (+2). Then the ACC and SEC take their pick of the remaining schools imo.