It's Gone! 2004-2006 NHL Offseason and Lockout Thread

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by Simms

Interesting announcement today (no link yet...just heard about this on the radio)...

The Original Stars Hockey League (OSHL) will drop the puck on their inaugural season this coming Friday. What I know of it is this:

- It's basically a barnstorming league -- 6 teams, all games will be played at various locations in Ontario: Barrie, Sarnia, Ottawa, Kitchener, Brampton, Toronto (Ricoh Col.), etc.
- Games are 4 on 4, all the time.
- No-touch icing
- No red line
- No minor penalties -- they'll use penalty shots instead
- There is a shootout at the end of every period, I'm assuming with any goals scored being added to the overall score.

Some of the players who have already signed up: Aki Berg, Nathon Perrott, and Chad Kilger got most of the mentiones (this is Toronto radio, after all), but they also listed Jason Spezza and Doug Weight among those committed.

Also, the league makes no bones about the fact that it will close operations the *second* the NHL reopens for business, whether said time is on the eve of their championship game or otherwise.

If nothing else, it sounds interesting.

Any update?

Definitely think the penalty shot thing sounds interesting.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

Any update?

Definitely think the penalty shot thing sounds interesting.

they've already played at least one game - the score was like 16-13 or something.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

John Madden has recanted...as expected. The NHLPA got to him...

http://www.canada.com/sports/hockey/...2-d626a12f08e4

Yeah, these negotiations always scare me. They always go to show how much like sheep each side is. Or how much like a bad horror movie where the one normal person in the town is a zombie the next day after talking to you. Any time a union member or owner steps out of line, they always recant the next day after a likely stern phone call by leadership. This is why the NBA ended in miserable failure for the NBAPA- they couldn't keep their players quiet as well as many other things but when you had Patrick Ewing and his "We make a lot of money but we spend a lot of money, too" out there daily, you just won't win.

SI

[Simms]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

Any update?

Definitely think the penalty shot thing sounds interesting.

As DD said, the final score was 16-13. Based on the article below (from TSN), it sounded like fun.

------------------------------------------------------------

OSHL debut ends 16-13

Canadian Press



9/17/2004

BARRIE, Ont. (CP) - Dan Cloutier allowed 13 goals and got the goaltending win.


That's what can happen in the Original Stars Hockey League. It's zany.


It's certainly not where Cloutier and the other locked-out NHL players wanted to be Friday night but, given their circumstances, they'll play anywhere now. They've gone from the big league to a beer league.


``We're all disappointed with the situation,'' Cloutier said of the collective bargaining impasse. ``I'd much rather be in training camp in Vancouver and playing for my team.


``Hopefully, we'll get this settled earlier than later.''


Till then, he'll don an OSHL sweater.


Cloutier's blue-clad team, dubbed Toronto, beat the red-shirted squad, logically identified as Detroit, 16-13 in the SOHL opener. It's a six-team, 13-aside, four-on-four league set up by Mississauga, Ont., businessman Randy Gumbley to give idle NHL players somewhere to skate. A total of 15 games have been scheduled to date. The next one is Sunday afternoon in Sarnia, Ont.


``It was fun out there,'' said Cloutier. ``We had a good time.


``It was pretty wide open for the goalies but at least it was going both ways. It'd be different if it was one-sided.''


Andrew Raycroft of the Boston Bruins was the Detroit goalie. He faced 57 shots. Cloutier saw 55.


``My team came through in the third,'' Cloutier said with a grin.


The OSHL is a goals-galore lark for the players, who'll share the profits - if there are any.


``We were laughing and joking throughout the game,'' said Jamie Rivers of the Detroit Red Wings.


Some fans noticed the lack of big-name players, and some grumbled about the absence of body checking. But youngsters counted down the last 10 seconds and most of the customers left satisfied.


``It's not up to NHL standards but for what it was it had some excitement,'' said Trevor Piper, who drove in from Angus. ``Obviously you miss the hitting but we never really expected any.''


Announced attendance was 2,176 in an arena that can hold 4,500.


``That's pretty good for only three days of promotion,'' said Gumbley. ``And nobody left early.''


Tickets were $34 to $60, which was pretty pricey given the meaninglessness of the show.


``We made some money,'' said accountant Christie Henderson.


Jamal Mayers of the St. Louis Blues, skating for Toronto, scored the first goal and a league spokesman said his sweater, stick and the puck would go into the Hockey Hall of Fame. Like, where? Hope they don't make room for it by taking out any of Rocket Richard's stuff.


Other Toronto goal scorers were Brian Willsie of the Washington Capitals with four, Dan Boyle of the Tampa Bay Lightning with three, Brian Gionta of the New Jersey Devils, Rory Fitzpatrick of the Buffalo Sabres and Bill Lindsay of the Atlanta Thrashers with two each, and Jason Ward of the Montreal Canadiens and Mark Mowers of the Detroit Red Wings.


For Detroit, Rivers scored three goals, Andy Sutton of the Thrashers, Mike Comrie and Mike Johnson of the Phoenix Coyotes had two each, and Jason Chimera of the Coyotes, Matt Bradley of the Pittsburgh Penguins, Aaron Downey of the Dallas Stars and Eric Boulton of the Sabres one each.


Spectator Remy Tahbazian of Barrie, who brought the whole family, had hoped for more big-name players to show up.


``There could be more name-brand people involved,'' he suggested. ``And if they want this taken seriously the players should be taking it more seriously.


``Apart from that, it's pretty good hockey. It's fast and all the goals keep it interesting.''


Scott DeCruz, clad in a red national team sweater, motored in from Dundalk with his son Mitchell to take in the game.


``It's a good venue to see the guys up close,'' said DeCruz. ``My son wanted to check out the four-on-four with no centre red line and no-touch icing.''


Other innovations were line changes made only on the fly, penalties resulting in penalty shots rather than a man sitting in a penalty box, and exhibition shootouts after each of the 17-minute, stop-time periods.


``I thought it was pretty exciting, and it took only a little over two hours to play,'' said Paul Laus, who coached the Toronto team.


``We should all be happy,'' said Grant Ledyard, who coached the Detroit side. ``The effort was there.


``You saw players who don't usually play in four-on-four situations and got an indication of just how good the level of play is in the NHL.''


Rivers pointed out that the players and all of the fans appreciated what, thankfully, was missing.


``The fans got to see some speed, and no hooking and holding,'' he said.

[klayman]

Wow. 13 goals allowed. Cloutier is already in his playoff form.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by klayman

Wow. 13 goals allowed. Cloutier is already in his playoff form.

That's a keeper!

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by klayman

Wow. 13 goals allowed. Cloutier is already in his playoff form.

I wish I'd said that first

[Karim]

Here's a site which shows you the salary history of NHL players. Just type in the player you're interested in.
http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/search...ies-search.cgi

[Karim]

The NHL is winning the PR battle hands down. Here's a nifty powerpoint presentation from the NHL...
http://www.nhlcbanews.com/cba_pres.ppt

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Karim

The NHL is winning the PR battle hands down. Here's a nifty powerpoint presentation from the NHL...
http://www.nhlcbanews.com/cba_pres.ppt

After reading that, I have to know, where the heck can you hide money? In other sports, for tax purposes, I know it's common to create a separate entity for concession and advertising revenue and I've heard that owners don't have to report that. But looking at the list here, I want to know where NHL owners hide their money:



- NET GATE RECEIPTS (REGULAR SEASON AND PLAYOFFS)
- PRE-SEASON GAMES (GATE RECEIPTS AND APPEARANCE FEES)
- SPECIAL GAME REVENUES (INTERNATIONAL GAMES, ETC.)
- LEAGUE-GENERATED BROADCASTING REVENUES
- LOCAL BROADCASTING AND CABLE REVENUES
- LOCAL RADIO REVENUES
- LOCAL PAY-PER-VIEW AND SATELLITE REVENUES
- INTERNET REVENUES
- PUBLICATION/PROGRAM REVENUES
- ARENA NOVELTY REVENUES
- NON-ARENA NOVELTY REVENUES
- CONCESSION REVENUES
- LUXURY BOX (SUITE) REVENUES (TICKETS AND LICENSE FEES)
- CLUB/PREMIUM SEAT REVENUES (TICKETS AND LICENSE FEES)
- DASHERBOARD REVENUES
- SIGNAGE REVENUES (SCOREBOARD AND CONCOURSE)
- PARKING REVENUES
- OTHER HOCKEY REVENUES (SPONSORSHIP AND PROMOTION REVENUES, ETC.)

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

After reading that, I have to know, where the heck can you hide money? In other sports, for tax purposes, I know it's common to create a separate entity for concession and advertising revenue and I've heard that owners don't have to report that. But looking at the list here, I want to know where NHL owners hide their money:

Many teams own (or are owned by) the TV stations that broadcast their games. In those cases, they can "hide" money by booking lower-than-expected revenue, since they're essentially paying themselves.

[Cards4ever]

http://www.nike.com/canada/nikehockey/lockout/

[Karim]

Very poignant ad. Props to Nike...

[Karim]

Here's an article Bettman and the owners should read...
http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandf...ts/9746073.htm

Here's an article Goodenow and the players should read...
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Edmont...24/641589.html

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Karim

Very poignant ad. Props to Nike...

It's a nice ad, but it rings a little hollow. How about Nike announces that if the season is cancelled it will not renew any NHL endorsment deals, thus costing some of the top players and teams millions of dollars? Maybe that would be some real pressure on the sides.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

It's a nice ad, but it rings a little hollow. How about Nike announces that if the season is cancelled it will not renew any NHL endorsment deals, thus costing some of the top players and teams millions of dollars? Maybe that would be some real pressure on the sides.

Hah. Take a real serious stand? Nike is a company that I hate, anyway. It's better that they provide lip service on this issue just like any other issue that comes up in their business.

[Ksyrup]

The NHL is in serious trouble. The lockout's been on for about a week, right? Has anyone noticed or cared? I suppose there will be some attention when the regular season opening date passes, but otherwise, we may be seeing the end of the NHL as we know it. I just read the Forsberg isn't coming back this year, even if they settle. How many other Europeans might do the same?

About the only positive out of this is that my DirecTV bill won't have the annual football/hockey double-whammy price tag. Still, I'd rather pay and see hockey.

[Cards4ever]

I think the NHL will be like other sports that have gone on strike/lockout, the attention that was paid to it prior to the shutdown will slowly come back. I don't worry about it much cause there is plenty of hockey to watch here with HS Elite League going on and College Hockey will start soon.

[Karim]

There's a daily lockout update up here but there's just nothing to talk about anymore. Both sides haven't talked since September 9th. The next drop dead date is January 10-15 after which there is no way for a reduced schedule.

[Fidatelo]

This season is done, there is no way it gets resolved in time.

[Simms]

Don't think this got much widespread publicity, but a few days ago Sidney Crosby was named Player of the Week in the "Q" for the first week of the season.

He had 18 points in six games. (!!!)

[Cards4ever]

Originally Posted by Simms

Don't think this got much widespread publicity, but a few days ago Sidney Crosby was named Player of the Week in the "Q" for the first week of the season.

He had 18 points in six games. (!!!)

With the strike on, this kid will probably have even more media focus on him. He is a amazing player, should be a interesting season for him.

[Simms]

Actually, after re-reading an article I saw, I must admit I was mistaken.

He had 18 points in five games.

[Cards4ever]

How long before his dad starts complaining about the non-calls of penalties on his poor little boy though?!

[Karim]

Crosby will be one of the rookies "shafted" under the new CBA.

It looks like TSN is going to air a CBA proposal of their own in attempts to spur negotiations...
http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=100496

In other news, the WHA has folded.

[Simms]

I missed the show, but for those interested, here's TSN's CBA "proposal", as referenced by Karim above.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp...97&hubName=nhl

At first glance, it seems to make sense, but I haven't really examined it all that closely. Of course, making sense means it has zero chance of ever happening.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Simms

I missed the show, but for those interested, here's TSN's CBA "proposal", as referenced by Karim above.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp...97&hubName=nhl

At first glance, it seems to make sense, but I haven't really examined it all that closely. Of course, making sense means it has zero chance of ever happening.

I don't know - it didn't really seem to be drastic enough to fix anything. I do like the rookie salary limits, which should be in place for ALL sports. I don't like the idea of putting even more emphasis on arbitration...that's a screwy system as it is.

[Karim]

If the lockout isn't bad enough, more allegations, suits, claims etc. are coming out regarding Hellemond's tenure as head of officiating. Not only was he asking officials for money, it seems referees and linesemen were fired for trivial things that happen every game. "You got in the way of the puck - you're fired." "You were indecisive on that call - you're fired." Half of the referees Hellemond released have been reinstated by the league.

As much as I love hockey...

[chrisj]

Hmm... for talk of Sidney Crosby, I really think this kid iis going to be the biggest bust ever now.

Last week the Halifax Mooseheads defeated Rimouski 4-2. That wasn't the real story however. The real story was that Freddy Cabana, a 6th round pick of the Philadelphia Flyers, kneed Crosby and Crosby had to leave the game. Cabana was kicked out of the game.

A shift later, when Halifax capitan (and New Jersey Devils 2nd round pick) Petr Vrana came to the ice, Rimouski sent their goon Alexandre Vachon to the face off circle with him, and as soon as the puck dropped, Vachon immediately started raining punches down on him without paying any attention to the puck, trying to injure Vrana on purpose.

Crosby and Rimouski started complaining right away about the hit, about how teams (such as Halifax) were gooning it up against him. What is this kid going to do when he gets to the NHL? People are going to laugh at him when his daddy is interviewed and says, "stop hitting my kid" (and I'm not kidding, his dad basically did an interview in a paper out here saying that).

Of course, the funniest part of it all was the quote by Rimouski's coach: "It was clear that Cabana was out to hurt Crosby. Their coach (MacKenzie) sent him out to intentionally injure him and that is unacceptable"

I guess Vachon was just out there to tell Vrana he loved him.

[Cards4ever]

That will not play at all when he is in the pros, kind of sad to see.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Cards4ever

That will not play at all when he is in the pros, kind of sad to see.

True, but remember, he is still a kid, he's got a lot of growing up to do. Both psyhically and mentally. Retribution for cheap shots to stars is as old as the game itself, why would you expect it to stop now?

[chrisj]

BTW, for anyone who cares, the guy who hit Crosby, Cabana, got 8 games. Vachon, who was sent out there for payback, got 4.

And the coach who sent him out for payback? None.

The Q is so bush league.

[3ric]

I just read in a local paper that a Canadian TV network is going to show games from the Swedish Elite League this winter... is anyone going to watch that ???

[Cards4ever]

Originally Posted by SoxWin

True, but remember, he is still a kid, he's got a lot of growing up to do. Both psyhically and mentally. Retribution for cheap shots to stars is as old as the game itself, why would you expect it to stop now?

I agree with that, but, if Daddy decides to be a ass like that when he's a pro, he won't be very popular on his own team.

[Maple Leafs]

I don't know, guys. If I had a kid who had the talent and the skills to enter an industry and immediately make a multi-million dollar salary once he turns 18, and some other kid without any talent or skill was trying to make a name for himself by taking my kid out before it could happen, I'd be pretty pissed off too.

[Cards4ever]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I don't know, guys. If I had a kid who had the talent and the skills to enter an industry and immediately make a multi-million dollar salary once he turns 18, and some other kid without any talent or skill was trying to make a name for himself by taking my kid out before it could happen, I'd be pretty pissed off too.

That might be so, but by his Dad making those comments, he is not helping anything.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Cards4ever

I agree with that, but, if Daddy decides to be a ass like that when he's a pro, he won't be very popular on his own team.

Agreed. See Lindros, Eric.

[sterlingice]

Not exactly new news but it's one of those "catch up" articles
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=99378&hubName=

Three key contracts helped kill the CBA

On paper, the recently expired collective bargaining agreement should have done a better job keeping NHL salaries under control for players in their 20s, but three contracts signed in 1997-98 blew that out the window.

Joe Sakic, Paul Kariya and Eric Lindros signed deals that season that sent salaries into a spiral that in no small part led to the current NHL lockout.

All three deals did irreparable damage to a CBA that should have worked better. And don't blame the players, it's not their fault.

The hope 10 years ago, from the owners' side, was that the CBA would effectively control the rise of salaries because teams controlled players until they were 31, when unrestricted free agency finally kicked in.

The owners hoped to limit some, if not most, Group 2 restricted free agents to no more than a 10 per cent raise on their salary from the season before - as written out in the CBA - especially those without salary arbitration rights.

Yeah right.

Sakic, 28 at the time, was the first shocker. The Colorado Avalanche felt obliged to match a three-year, $21-million US offer sheet made by the New York Rangers in August '97. It was one of the rare times during the CBA's 10-year run from January 1995 to September 2004 where a restricted free agent received an offer sheet.

The Avs preferred to match the offer rather than receive draft picks as compensation.

"The Group 2 system, with the team having the right to match, works extremely effectively," says Sakic's agent Don Baizley. "That right to match just chills the market place, as it does in most business settings. But Joe's situation was exceptional, the Rangers were looking for someone to replace Mark Messier (who went to Vancouver).

"So they came along and made an offer sheet to him, which rarely happened. And Colorado went ahead and matched it."

It more than doubled his salary from the $3.1 million he earned in 1996-97 (the deal was actually broken down as a $15-million signing bonus and $2 million a season in base salary - giving him an average of $7 million a year).

Suddenly, the benchmark for a top player under the age of 31 went from $3 million to $7 million.

And then there was Kariya, 23 at the time. He was coming off his third NHL season, a 99-point campaign when he earned $2.075 million. He was looking for a big raise, but as a Group 2 restricted free agent with not enough NHL experience to qualify for salary arbitration, he had very little recourse.

Under the terms of the collective bargaining agreement, all the Ducks had to do is offer him no more than a 10 per cent raise.

Kariya rejected his qualifying offer and did the only thing he could do: he skipped training camp and missed Anaheim's first 32 games. He wanted Sakic money.

Disney, its Ducks team struggling without its top star, caved in and gave Kariya a two-year, $14-million deal in December 1997, a monstrous raise which changed the Group 2 market forever. What made it worse is that the two-year deal was broken down as $5.5 million the first year and $8.5 million the second season, meaning the Ducks could never qualify him for less than $8.5 million.

In April '98, Ducks teammate and linemate Teemu Selanne received a two-year extension for 2000-01 and 2001-02 which also hit the jackpot. After earning $3.4 million in 1997-98, $4.75 million in 1998-99 and $5.45 million in 1999-2000, the new extension raised him to $8 million for 2000-01 and $9.5 million for 2001-02.

Those deals would not have happened without the Sakic signing in '97.

"The Sakic offer from the Rangers, which Colorado matched, was the first one that saw salaries go up (for Groups 2s)," said one NHL general manager who requested anonymity. "And then shortly after that, Kariya and Selanne, as Group 2s, with no other rights, not even arbitration rights (in Kariya's case), they signed enormous contracts.

"They were good players, but they hadn't won anything and their new deals took them right up to where Sakic was. So those signings affected the entire Group 2 market and became comparable in salary arbitration. And they really hurt, because Kariya was making $7 million and a guy with numbers almost as good is only making $2 million but he now thinks he's worth $5 million."

And then there was Lindros, 24 at the time, who signed a two-year contract extension with the Philadelphia Flyers in January 1998 worth $16 million. The agreement raised his 1997-98 salary of $3.74 million to $7.5 million for that season, and gave Lindros $8.5 million for 1998-99.

And it went on and on for the game's biggest Group 2 stars, Jaromir Jagr and Peter Forsberg later eclipsing the $10-million barrier.

Baizley, based in Winnipeg, represents Sakic, Kariya, Selanne and Forsberg among others. One of the game's top agents who tries to keep a low profile, he admits Kariya's deal had a huge impact on the market for Group 2 players.

"I don't think we can deny it was a pivotal signing," he said. "But it was a signing that took place in a market-place where revenues for all teams were going up. There was a very optimistic view in terms of economic outlook. So this was paid by a company, Disney, that obviously had some projections that they were satisfied they could handle with this salary."

What made the Sakic, Lindros and Kariya deals even more difficult to swallow for the NHL in retrospect is that all three deals came about only after the league agreed with the NHLPA in June 1997 to the four-year extension of the CBA for 2000-2004.

The damage had already been done. And now the NHL wants a salary cap to fix it.

[Maple Leafs]

Ironic that only five years later, two of those three players have turned into big-time busts.

[Cards4ever]

Kariya is a big time bust?

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Cards4ever

Kariya is a big time bust?

Over the last two years, yes. Certainly compared to his salary.

Remember, the guy went from the top line on Canada's 2002 Olympic team to not even being seriously considered for the 2004 World Cup.

[sachmo71]

I'm flipping through channels, and on FOX Sports, I see the word Stars. I stop, and it's the Dallas Stars Ultimate Collection, which is a show that hilights big games in Dallas Stars history. The first half hour was the first regular season game in Dallas.

Dallas vs. Detroit.
Moog vs. Chevalde
6-4, Dallas. First goal scored by Neil Broten, of course.

It just made me realize how much I miss hockey, and how strange it is to not have it. I'm yelling "GO!" at the tv, hoping Russ Courtnall will carry it up ice, and leaping when they score.

I miss freaking hockey, and I want it BACK!!! Now, you spoiled fuckers!!!

[Desnudo]

In the down time Sergei Federov is dating Tara Reid. Not really anything, but not nothing either.

[DeToxRox]

i'd say for his career kariya has been overrated. ever since those concussions started, he's never been the same player. that said, when he was healthy he was one of the most entertaining players in the NHL.

But hes had more subpar (for what he showed early on) years then phenominal ones.

[MizzouRah]

Here in St. Louie, FOX shows a "greatest" Blues game every Wednesday night. Oh how I miss the NHL as well.

I believe the Monday night miracle is next week.


Todd

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Here in St. Louie, FOX shows a "greatest" Blues game every Wednesday night. Oh how I miss the NHL as well.

I believe the Monday night miracle is next week.


Todd

Was that the game where Bobby Orr scored to win the cup for Boston?

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Was that the game where Bobby Orr scored to win the cup for Boston?

“The Monday Night Miracle,” as it will come to be known, is arguably the greatest game in franchise history. On May 12, 1986, the Blues stage a dramatic come-from-behind victory in Game 6 of the Campbell Conference Finals by scoring four unanswered goals to defeat Calgary, 6-5, in overtime. The win evens the series at three games apiece, forcing Game 7. Doug Wickenheiser notches the game winner 7:30 into the extra frame in front of a raucous home crowd, with Dan Kelly behind the microphone.

Todd

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

i'd say for his career kariya has been overrated. ever since those concussions started, he's never been the same player. that said, when he was healthy he was one of the most entertaining players in the NHL.

But hes had more subpar (for what he showed early on) years then phenominal ones.

Funny you should mention that. When sachmo mentioned the game replay he caught, I immediately thought of how the local stations here have been showing replays of great games involving the Kings and Ducks.

One of the games replayed was Game 6 of the 2003 Cup finals. The one where Stevens clocked Kariya and he actually had to be helped off the ice. Then a few minutes later he came back on the ice and scored a beautiful wrister past Brodeur from the wall near the blueline. Yeah, we lost the series, but that was again incredibly perfect, and I think that was the most I wanted him back with the club since he left us.

I have also gotten to watch the Frenzy on Figueroa (the Kings three-goal comeback and OT victory over the Wings in 2002), the last game of the playoff series with the Leafs and first game with the Canadiens in the 2003 playoffs and Cup finals, and several Ducks games from the 2003 playoff stretch (including that six period win over the Stars, the Game 1 overtime win over the Wings and the Jiggy shutout against the Wild where he made that amazing, acrobatic save).

I miss hockey, too, but at least they will be talking again. The players have a new proposal and the two sides are meeting next Thursday. I don't know if an agreement can save the season, though.

CR

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Over the last two years, yes. Certainly compared to his salary.

Remember, the guy went from the top line on Canada's 2002 Olympic team to not even being seriously considered for the 2004 World Cup.

I would argue that his decline is due in large part to his inability to stay healthy. If he were healthy, you can bet he would've been on the 2004 Cup squad.

[samifan24]

dola


I miss my Whalers. Where are Frantisek Kucera and Alexander Godynyuk when you need them?