Alright boyz, here we go!!! OOTP2006 First Impressions Thread!

[SackAttack]

It looks as though I'm scheduled to play 25% of my road games in the month of April. We've played 10 straight already, and it looks like there's 12-13 more games left on the road trip before we get our first home game.

Has anybody else run into anything like that, either at home or on the road?

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

I love this guy.

Is that Joe Mauer's line?

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

It looks as though I'm scheduled to play 25% of my road games in the month of April. We've played 10 straight already, and it looks like there's 12-13 more games left on the road trip before we get our first home game.

Has anybody else run into anything like that, either at home or on the road?

The New Orleans Saints last season in football.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Is that Joe Mauer's line?

Nah, I'm not using real rosters.

That's my left fielder.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Axxon

The New Orleans Saints last season in football.

Meh, the football equivalent of what's happening to me is playing four straight on the road to open the season before you come home.

We're gonna be 1/4 of the way through our road record before we ever have the home opener.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by FBPro

But in all reasonable thought to say that Clay can add expansion to BM so Markus should be able to as well is like saying a Yugo and a Ferrari are on the same footing as far as cars go. They are somewhat the same 4 wheels, doors, seats, etc........BUT there are also unfathomable differences in the two which make comparison laughable. I'm not saying it isn't possible I'm just saying you can't compare adding it to one as being the same as adding it to the other.

Have you played the last two or three versions of Baseball Mogul? I might have agreed with the statement five years ago, but BM is a much better sim than it once was. I think saying OOTP is a Ferrari and BM is a Yugo is overrating one and underrating the other. I'd say OOTP is a fully loaded Honda Accord and BM is a base model Honda Civic. The Accord has a lot of what you want, but the Civic is a sturdy workhorse.

[QUOTE-cuervo] I'll echo what I've said before (possibly at the FOBL forum and not here) - I think it is entirely possible that Markus didn't reuse actual lines of code for this. But, I also think it's possible that having knowledge of how the game was programmed before, he quite likely built the new code with the same logic as he had used before. Basically, coding the same functions twice. While some of the syntax might be a little different, the functionality is basically the same. So while bugs in the code might not be there, flaws in the logic could very well remain.[/quote]
I do consider that a likely possibility. I ask myself that if you know something doesn't work as intended because your customers have told you so and you are building the code, why wouldn't you try something different? I think you would -- and if you do try something different, I would expect that the likelihood is you would get a different result, not necessarily the exact same result you received with a different course of action.

It was, however, rude of me to make the suggestion that the code isn't completely rewritten. The logic cuervo lays out is perfectly reasonable.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

kc, I know we've discussed this before but I have found team movement/expansion in v5 to be fun to do. Sure it's manual but I like that it is not automated. As you know, I play in the 50s where there are 5 teams moving - that's easy. Then I hit the early 60s and you have the AL expanding 10 teams and then on eor two years later, the NL does the same thing. However in one career, I delayed the AL expansion until 1962 so I could do both at the same time. Takes about 5 minutes to do, including putting in the updated logos and stadiums.

With a game that has so many options, it doesn't make any sense to not give the gamer the option on historical movement/expansion. I would agree that an option could be given to automate this part but I would not ever play that way.

Perfectly reasonable point. My question is why can't you do both? I think BM had that, didn't it -- the option to turn historical expansion on or off?

I suppose if you've do it a few times, expansion in OOTP5 becomes rote. I could never do it without having TigerFan's instruction sheet for how to do it, and it never took me only 5 minutes. But trust me -- expansion in OOTP 2k6 with minor leagues on won't take five minutes, and the margin for error will be more significant.

[lynchjm24]

Does anyone else have the waiver wire disappear in the time between the amature draft pool being announced and the amature draft. For the month of May the waiver wire was gone, now that the draft is over, it's back.

[FBPro]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Have you played the last two or three versions of Baseball Mogul? I might have agreed with the statement five years ago, but BM is a much better sim than it once was. I think saying OOTP is a Ferrari and BM is a Yugo is overrating one and underrating the other. I'd say OOTP is a fully loaded Honda Accord and BM is a base model Honda Civic. The Accord has a lot of what you want, but the Civic is a sturdy workhorse

Well, though I haven't played the newest version I have played last years and if only taking into account the sheer number of options available in the games I still feel that my example is probably more true to form. Functionality wise you maybe correct but due to the amount of possible configurations and the need to keep things adjusted correctly there are just too many more possiblities in OOTP to compare them in number to BM.

[CraigSca]

Threads like these are why Jim's games are the way they are. People complain about lack of flexibility and then when a developer tries for the promised land they mock it into submission.

Not saying I agree or disagree with it - just telling it like it is.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Meh, the football equivalent of what's happening to me is playing four straight on the road to open the season before you come home.

We're gonna be 1/4 of the way through our road record before we ever have the home opener.

True, the Saints had it far worse. They never had a home opener or even a home game.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

then when a developer tries for the promised land but instead manages to play pitchers in LF on a regular basis, has scouting reports that don't make sense compared to the performance of the player and other silly errors that an average ten year old baseball fan would notice they mock it into submission

Fixed that for you.

[CraigSca]

Well yeah...but besides that. I don't know why he does what he does - he just doesn't know when to say when.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Threads like these are why Jim's games are the way they are. People complain about lack of flexibility and then when a developer tries for the promised land they mock it into submission.

Not saying I agree or disagree with it - just telling it like it is.

Whoa. I think you need to take a step back.

Amazingly, with all the problems this game has (and it has a crapload of them), we've taken it fairly easy on the game. We aren't unhappy Markus has tried to shoot for the moon.

Jim's games get the same degree of heat as this, sometimes a lot more for his "design decisions" What's the point of flexibility and a wide sweeping universe if it doesn't work? I mean, waivers is almost beyond repair. He hasn't got em to work with any game yet and it's not even close at this point.

So are we angry that he gave us the flexibility to have waivers or angry that they are there and aren't even close to working? I'll take the "disagree" option if you don't mind.

[BreizhManu]

Found another bug, when you create a crappy league (I created France) and you try to limit the number of foreigners, the game assumes that American are not foreigners.

And since I limited the talent pool to crappy local players, after a season, the league is full of Americans (teams went on from 0 to 40 or so) which might be reallistic but was not the point.

Else I'm having a blast, but Markus has not exploited that much the CM/FM engine :

- On the scouting point of view, I'd like to see a real scouting report, not just numbers.

- More interaction with the players, not just during contract negociation, e.g the player not showing to a training, requesting playing time, a trade etc...

- Coach reports that say something else than he is doing bad/good

- Media interaction ?

In fact all the points that make FM the best SMG.
So far Markus clearly just made another version of OOTP, but the game is just a rookie with lots of potential, and I don't think it will improve with patches, we will have to wait for next version for all that.

[MrBug708]

Did you try creating it with 100% to see what happens?

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by BreizhManu

Found another bug, when you create a crappy league (I created France) and you try to limit the number of foreigners, the game assumes that American are not foreigners.

And since I limited the talent pool to crappy local players, after a season, the league is full of Americans (teams went on from 0 to 40 or so) which might be reallistic but was not the point.

Else I'm having a blast, but Markus has not exploited that much the CM/FM engine :

- On the scouting point of view, I'd like to see a real scouting report, not just numbers.

- More interaction with the players, not just during contract negociation, e.g the player not showing to a training, requesting playing time, a trade etc...

- Coach reports that say something else than he is doing bad/good

- Media interaction ?

In fact all the points that make FM the best SMG.
So far Markus clearly just made another version of OOTP, but the game is just a rookie with lots of potential, and I don't think it will improve with patches, we will have to wait for next version for all that.

First off, with all due respect to people such as you who are playing inetnational leagues those kind of issues ie.Americans being in a Spanish league should be lower priority for now since that is the least worries these guys got now.

I hope i am proven wrong but I agree with this statement "I don't think it will improve with patches, we will have to wait for next version for all that" Well, it will improve just not to a very enjoyable level I think with the type of MAJOR design issues/bugs this one has.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Threads like these are why Jim's games are the way they are. People complain about lack of flexibility and then when a developer tries for the promised land they mock it into submission.

Not saying I agree or disagree with it - just telling it like it is.

I'm pretty much with Troy on this one. I don't think this game is getting mocked into submission. If you compare this thread with the Maximum Football thread, I think you'd come away with the conclusion that OOTP is the greatest computer game since Pong. I also don't think the criticism of the game has been that heavy. I'd term the reaction favorable, but I think the reaction is delayed because the game is so large there is a lot to take in.

But I beg to differ on the comparison to Jim. I think Jim has always been very upfront about what his games will be. TCY proved that. Even before the game was released he said some people won't like it because it's not a recreation of college football -- it was a college football game that he wanted to play.

I think OOTP stakes a claim to customization, but the end product doesn't always deliver on that claim no matter how good the game might be. That's why I've taken some pains at times to say what I think OOTP is and what it isn't -- because I don't think Markus does a good job of that. I think 2k6 will be a very good game -- but I don't know if it will be the all things to all people that it's sometimes hyped to be. It is what it is, just like Jim's games are.

[BreizhManu]

Originally Posted by Galaril

First off, with all due respect to people such as you who are playing inetnational leagues those kind of issues ie.Americans being in a Spanish league should be lower priority for now since that is the least worries these guys got now.

Even for me it is a minor issue, like most people I play either the MLB or a fictional league were this is not a factor, but still since that bug exists, it though it would be good to report it.

[BreizhManu]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Did you try creating it with 100% to see what happens?

Ok my bad, I got the bug wrong, I've just tried with 100%, the problem comes from the fact that there are 3 limits :

- number of foreigners
- number of foreign pitchers
- number of foreign batters

And the thing is that the game does not care of the number of foreigners limit, if you say 5 and 5 pitchers and 5 batters (for me it implies that you can have a maximum of 5 five foreigners of any kind), the game understands he can have as much as 5 pitchers AND 5 batters. Most teams now have 7-8 foreigners.

Plus it is the number of foreigners per team, not organization.

Anyway like I said, that's not a big deal.

[astrosfan64]

It is a great game warts and all. It will only get better.

[SackAttack]

I'm gonna go ahead and guess Goodloe never sees anything worth hitting against the lefties.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

I'm gonna go ahead and guess Goodloe never sees anything worth hitting against the lefties.

Plus that's a rather limited stat sample..

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Plus that's a rather limited stat sample..

I know it is. I'm mostly giggling over the fact that he's got a huge OBP vs lefties and crap BA, with more moderate numbers both ways against righties.

[CraigSca]

Good Lord - you're stretching here, aren't you?

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Good Lord - you're stretching here, aren't you?

Can I post ANYTHING that amuses me without it being taken as a criticism of the game? I have issues with OOTP, but this ain't one of them.

That stat split just made me laugh and I had to share it with you guys.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by BreizhManu

So far Markus clearly just made another version of OOTP, but the game is just a rookie with lots of potential, and I don't think it will improve with patches, we will have to wait for next version for all that.

Well, yes he just made another version of OOTP. FM got to the level it's at over the course of 13/14 years and so perhaps over time we can explore some of the finer aspects of FM and put them in OOTP.

I'm sure via the patches we'll improve the game!

[Bee]

I hope he fixes the AI evaluation of veterans with large contracts. I think that's one of the major causes of trade and waiver wire issues.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Bee

I hope he fixes the AI evaluation of veterans with large contracts. I think that's one of the major causes of trade and waiver wire issues.

Agreed.

[miked]

Originally Posted by miked

Question for the guys who own the game and are playing the hell out of it...

In the UBL (our pseudo-FOFC OOTP league), I run a separate Euro league from which we import certain FA's that meet a specific criteria. Is it possible to import our 2 leagues into the same universe, but only have players flow one way (from EBF to UBL)? Would it just be better to turn foreign FA's up and jack up the amount? We get about 5-10 FA's each season that are eligible...is it possible to reproduce this?

Thanks!

Sorry to bump, but this may have gotten lost...

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by BreizhManu

So far Markus clearly just made another version of OOTP, but the game is just a rookie with lots of potential, and I don't think it will improve with patches, we will have to wait for next version for all that.

What's all this talk about OOTP being a rookie? He's been playing in the pros for 8 years now. Time to DFA?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by miked

Sorry to bump, but this may have gotten lost...

I'm sorry, but I have zero idea if this will work or not.

[BreizhManu]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

What's all this talk about OOTP being a rookie? He's been playing in the pros for 8 years now. Time to DFA?

Considering it has been rewritten from scratch, let's say it is a college senior getting to the pros

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BreizhManu

Considering it has been rewritten from scratch, let's say it is a college senior getting to the pros

So you believe that it's truly "rewritten from scratch" in spite of the repeat of the same problems that have been around for so long?

[MJ4H]

As was pointed out earlier, it is possible to rewrite a program and have the same logical flaws in the way you constructed the program show up in the new version. It doesn't have to be the exact same lines of code to follow similar logic that may be flawed.

[Apathetic Lurker]

anybody know what I do now?

I created a league with the lahman db for 2005, added all the minors and took over the Jays. I hit spring training and the rookie league has no players(the teams only have scouts and managers etc...). game wont let me advance even when i go into game setup and try to fill each minor league with fictional players..

keeps telling me team X has no players

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MattJones4Heisman

As was pointed out earlier, it is possible to rewrite a program and have the same logical flaws in the way you constructed the program show up in the new version. It doesn't have to be the exact same lines of code to follow similar logic that may be flawed.

Then does that really qualify as "rewritten from scratch"?
I mean, if I duplicate large chunks of a media plan from something I did last year, I wouldn't say that the new one is entirely "from scratch".

[Bee]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Then does that really qualify as "rewritten from scratch"?
I mean, if I duplicate large chunks of a media plan from something I did last year, I wouldn't say that the new one is entirely "from scratch".

Rewritten from scratch does not mean original and creative. I think all of us probably take things from one project and apply what we've learned to our next project. Sometimes those things are flawed and you get the same mistakes in multiple projects until you learn better. Hopefully Markus learns better soon.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by Apathetic Lurker

anybody know what I do now?

I created a league with the lahman db for 2005, added all the minors and took over the Jays. I hit spring training and the rookie league has no players(the teams only have scouts and managers etc...). game wont let me advance even when i go into game setup and try to fill each minor league with fictional players..

keeps telling me team X has no players

Known bug, you can't play with lahman and minors by now. Take a look at ootp boards to see some alternatives until the bug is corrected.

[FBPro]

Yes you can, just edit those games(delete them) and reschedule them later in the year.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Then does that really qualify as "rewritten from scratch"?

Yes. It is possible to do something from scratch many times, and make the same errors each time.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Then does that really qualify as "rewritten from scratch"?
I mean, if I duplicate large chunks of a media plan from something I did last year, I wouldn't say that the new one is entirely "from scratch".

Well, by this line of reasoning you can't ever possibly rewrite any sports sims because a huge chunk of the project is based on the rules of the sport. I mean, he includes pitchers and hitters this year and he did the same last year so obviously he duplicated a large portion of his game so he didn't rewrite it from scratch.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Well, by this line of reasoning you can't ever possibly rewrite any sports sims because a huge chunk of the project is based on the rules of the sport. I mean, he includes pitchers and hitters this year and he did the same last year so obviously he duplicated a large portion of his game so he didn't rewrite it from scratch.

Oh puh-leeze.

My question was actually more about
a)whether anybody believed the claim that the code was written from scratch and
b) whether repeating the same errors time & again qualified as "from scratch", if the "new" part of the equation amounted to re-typing the same error-riddled code.

The answer to both questions appears to be yes, so although I disagree with the answers, my question has indeed been answered.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by Icy

Known bug, you can't play with lahman and minors by now. Take a look at ootp boards to see some alternatives until the bug is corrected.

Thanks, headin' over to the ootp boards now.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Oh puh-leeze.

My question was actually more about
a)whether anybody believed the claim that the code was written from scratch and
b) whether repeating the same errors time & again qualified as "from scratch", if the "new" part of the equation amounted to re-typing the same error-riddled code.

The answer to both questions appears to be yes, so although I disagree with the answers, my question has indeed been answered.

The code can be written from scratch but the logic doesn't have to be. It seems that the errors are an error in logic not an error in code so your whole point makes no sense Jon.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Oh puh-leeze.

My question was actually more about
a)whether anybody believed the claim that the code was written from scratch and
b) whether repeating the same errors time & again qualified as "from scratch", if the "new" part of the equation amounted to re-typing the same error-riddled code.

The answer to both questions appears to be yes, so although I disagree with the answers, my question has indeed been answered.

I have to for once agree with JIMG on basically, what he is saying.

[Buccaneer]

I guess Jon has never experienced object-oriented programming.

[Raven]

I have only read half this thread, but wanted to post what I found. This looks to be more poor AI decision making.

On 5/2, the Reds traded a 25 year old 3B name Joe Gomora to Tampa Bay. He was hitting .313/2/13 through 83 ABs, with an OPS of .817 with Cincy. Since then, In 181 ABs with Tampa Bay he has hit .287/13/29, with an OPS of .933.
His current batting ratings are 12/10/9/14/15, and his potentials are 12/11/9/18/16.

The guys he was traded for are a 22 year old 1B with no batting ratings above 10(current nor potential). Also included was a 36 year old SS whose currents are 9/10/12/11/11, and is a pretty decent fielder.

Both players Cincy received are playing at the R-level ball. The 36 year old SS was immediately sent to AAA when Cincy received him, without even getting a single at bat at the ML level. He had 122 ABs there where he hit .246/6/14. He then played one game in AA, and was sent to R-level as soon as the rookie league season began.

So basically they traded a fairly good/decent player for two players they had no need for. They then sent a 36 year old player to play in R-ball.

[Raven]

OK, I just simmed about two months of play so that I could get to my Rookie level team's Opening day. I played out the first game, pitch-by-pitch, scored 5 runs in the top of the 9th, to win 6-4, and when "leaving the game" it fucking crashed on me.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Raven

I have only read half this thread, but wanted to post what I found. This looks to be more poor AI decision making.

On 5/2, the Reds traded a 25 year old 3B name Joe Gomora to Tampa Bay. He was hitting .313/2/13 through 83 ABs, with an OPS of .817 with Cincy. Since then, In 181 ABs with Tampa Bay he has hit .287/13/29, with an OPS of .933.
His current batting ratings are 12/10/9/14/15, and his potentials are 12/11/9/18/16.

The guys he was traded for are a 22 year old 1B with no batting ratings above 10(current nor potential). Also included was a 36 year old SS whose currents are 9/10/12/11/11, and is a pretty decent fielder.

Both players Cincy received are playing at the R-level ball. The 36 year old SS was immediately sent to AAA when Cincy received him, without even getting a single at bat at the ML level. He had 122 ABs there where he hit .246/6/14. He then played one game in AA, and was sent to R-level as soon as the rookie league season began.

So basically they traded a fairly good/decent player for two players they had no need for. They then sent a 36 year old player to play in R-ball.

What was the contract of the 25 year old 3B?