07-30-2006, 01:48 PM | #651 | |
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Which is where you're wrong, and why there's no way for us to reconcile the difference in how we see this. The sad truth is that the only way Israel will ever be able to live in peace is when they eliminate the ability of those dedicated to attacking them to do so. Period. Golda Meir phrased it quite well in 1969 when she said "We have always said that in our war with the Arabs we had a secret weapon – no alternative".
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07-30-2006, 01:54 PM | #652 | |
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http://proudlylebanese.com/blog/index.php http://urshalim.blogspot.com/ http://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/ http://www.peacemiddleeast.blogspot.com/ ...will probably give you a wide range of views, but you could find your own I'm sure. |
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07-30-2006, 01:57 PM | #653 | |
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07-30-2006, 01:59 PM | #654 |
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im not looking for those, ive read those and their rhetoric. Im looking for individual judgements of each act, like the Lebanese PM did (which no one even batted an eye about) instead of the circle of blame. Crossing the border? killing the soldiers? kidnapping the soldiers? UN not enforcing the resolution? Hez. not disarming? Israel attacking? Israel dropping warning pamphlets? Hez. hiding arms in civilian homes? Israel's collateral damage? etc. etc.
otherwise Ill go back to leaving you alone.
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07-30-2006, 02:52 PM | #655 | |
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Biggles, if the only way to eliminate the attacks & threats is to kill every fucking one of them then by all means I would support doing so. And yes, I do mean every single one if necessary. In reality, at some point before that you eliminate their ability to effectively wage war/terror/pose a threat, rendering absolute annihliation uneccessary.
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07-30-2006, 02:58 PM | #656 | |
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07-30-2006, 03:03 PM | #657 |
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JimG:
are you saying "kill every last one" of the militants? or Lebanese? I would hope youre not suggesting the latter.
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07-30-2006, 03:15 PM | #658 | |
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Militants, terrorists, what have you. That said, there's also a quote worth noting from (I believe) a guy that I'm not otherwise likely often to be in agreement with. The line is attributed to John Wolfe, spoken in Saudi Arabia in 1991. I suspect that the speaker is now one of the veteran-against-the-war-in-Iraq candidates seeking office, although that's really neither here nor there. In any event, here's the quote: "In combat civilians serve only one purpose, that purpose being visual cover for the enemy."
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07-30-2006, 03:31 PM | #659 | |
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Hey they enjoyed peace before Hezbollah escalated the conflict with the raid and expanded rocket attacks. I'm saying they don't have the internal conflict going on as in Iraq, and that they are responsible for the goings on inside their borders. Israel has been asking for Hezbollah to be dealt with for years, The Turkish thing has only boiled up in past months, and only more recently have the Turks officially and publicly asked for the situation to be dealt with. If you can't see the differences between a peaceful Lebanon and an insecure Iraq, then you aren't really being intellectually honest with even yourself. My point is that Lebanon is responsible for the actions of the Hezbollah millitants within its borders. They have a responsibility to reign them in and prevent them from attacking Israel. The fact that it is a difficult task, doesn't let them relinquish that responsibility. They didn't make the effort to act responsibly. I don't have an answer for their problem. The problem is that neither do they. The difference is that they are responsible to work on a solution, yet they have simply chosen to ignore the problem. To contrast this against Iraq. Iraq has quite a few fish to fry, including this PKK group. Now that the PKK has made enough noise, they will start to get attention. Iraq and the United States aren't just going to ignore the problem and defer dealing with it. They are going to have to address it. If they don't, then your argument starts having some merit. As of now...still a bad analogy. |
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07-30-2006, 03:43 PM | #660 | |
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I think the winning hearts and minds thing to end an insurgency isn't completely correct. I think the vast majority of the people in Iraq are against all of the varoius millitant groups. They are for security. They don't like living in the dangerous circumstances that now confront them. The millitant groups in Iraq aren't winning the people's hearts and minds, rather they are spreading fear and insecurity. The people of Iraq don't want the US to pull out because they don't like the Iraqi government or because they hate the removal of Saddam. They want peace, and some believe that with the Americans gone that some of the millitant groups will leave, and the killings will stop. In other words I don't think it is possible for public sentiment to overcome the murdering and fear that is spawned by groups like Hezbollah or the terrorists/millitants in Iraq. |
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07-30-2006, 04:18 PM | #661 | ||
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2) Lebanon has no internal conflicts? I don't think you know much about Lebanon. They just got through with a 2 decade long civil war not too long ago. Their constitution gives extra representation to the Lebanonese Christians at the expense of the Shia, and in return much of Lebanon is run autonomously away from the central government in Beirut by the various Shia groups. This arrangement, while not ideal, keeps civil war from breaking out. About a year ago Lebanon finally kicked out Syria, but there is always the threat that they will come back. And there is the constant struggle with Israel and where the border is. 3) Israel has been dealing with Hezbollah for years, but the Lebanese have had their current government for under a year, during which time support for Hezbollah was waning...until the Israelis starting bombing the Lebanese infrastructure and killing dozens of children at a time trying to hunt down Hezbollah. 4) The Turkey thing is new? Quote:
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07-30-2006, 07:52 PM | #662 | |
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This would work great if there were a finite number of terrorists/militants, like if this were a video game or something. But in reality, for every extremist you kill, you'll incite others to take up the cause. |
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07-30-2006, 08:00 PM | #663 | |
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This is an unprovable proposition, something lots of people say, but what does it really mean? When a terrorist is killed, non-terrorists suddenly become terrorists? That doesn't make any sense. Terrorists are the product of a specific culture, not the result of something George Bush does. People don't suddenly completely change, for example, the way they value the lives of innocent people because Zarqawi got blown up. Everybody, whether Lebanese, Israeli, Portugese, Tibetan, or Irish is better off with terrorists dead as opposed to terrorists appeased. |
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07-30-2006, 08:05 PM | #664 | |
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Do the math Molson, as long as you kill them faster than they breed eventually they run out of sufficient numbers to be of concern.
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07-30-2006, 08:07 PM | #665 | |
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A nuke might pull that off, but I assure you that periodic air strikes won't. Last edited by molson : 07-30-2006 at 08:11 PM. |
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07-30-2006, 08:11 PM | #666 | |
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Culture is effected by experiences. When a whole generation of people have close family/friends that have been killed by the "enemy" - recruiting is much easier. I don't think people are born terrorists. I'm not saying a dead terrorist isn't a good thing. I'm just saying the solution is more way more complicated that just trying to "kill them all". Short of full scale invasion, with many innocents slaughtered, you'll never eliminate every single individual terrorist/militiant. Last edited by molson : 07-30-2006 at 08:11 PM. |
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07-30-2006, 08:13 PM | #667 | |
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Go back up the thread a bit, somewhere in there I mentioned my concern that a cease-fire might be accepted too soon.
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07-30-2006, 11:43 PM | #668 | |
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Jerusalem Post reports that the US is telling Israel to attack Syria:
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Insanity. |
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07-31-2006, 12:34 AM | #669 | |
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Last things first. I didn't say the PKK thing was new. What the hell? I said the development of the PKK attacking across the border from an Iraq in turmoil was new. Turkey has only just started to ask publicly for the situation to be addressed. On Lebanon, again you are just looking for nits to pick. Yes Lebanon was in turmoil for the 18 plus years of Israeli occupation, as well as the initial vacuum left when Israel pulled out. But the last few years have been distinctly different, and nothing like Iraq. There is simply not a comparison between life in Lebanon a month ago, and life in Iraq. I don't think it matters how long the government is in power, it still has responsibilities to enforce law and order. When a government allows an armed force within its borders to attack a neighboring state without recourse, then that government is abdicating its responsibilities. |
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07-31-2006, 01:16 AM | #670 | |
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Glen, here is your original statement on Lebanon:
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07-31-2006, 05:06 AM | #671 | |||||
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As it is, it's willfully misleading to compare the Hiz'b'allah and PKK situations, since the PKK is primarily an indigenous force fighting in Turkey that happens to have some bases across the border in Kurdistan compared to a Hiz'b'allah that is exogenous to Israel. If the Turks gave autonomy to the Kurdish part of Turkey, the PKK would lay down their arms (well, not lay down, but not squeeze the trigger finger.) Hiz'b'allah was still threatening Israel after Israel left the country (because they are a proxy for bigger issues, unlike the Kurds who are fighting a straightforward war for independence/autonomy.) Although there was that whole accusation of certain Turkish generals using the PKK to keep Turkey out of the EU, but who knows how much of that was true. Quote:
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As it applies to Lebanon, I think the UN's long list shows that they clearly aren't going to lead any force with both the capacity and will to use the muscle necessary to enforce any cease-fire. |
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07-31-2006, 08:54 AM | #672 | |
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Patton was a great general, but the days of that type of warfare are long gone. We need a new paradigm to fight the challengers of the 21st century, and as the IDF is finding out, that new paradigm isn't to simply lob more ordnance at the problem. |
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07-31-2006, 08:55 AM | #673 | |
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So? What's your point? |
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07-31-2006, 09:22 AM | #674 | |
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I still say that, depending upon the goal of a specific action, would depend upon how much ordnance is put on target. For example, if the initial goal is to disrupt and discomfit operations in a given area, there is almost certainly a tipping point where enough ordinance will accomplish that goal. Frankly, I'm still amazed by the incredible restraint that Israel shows with regard to areas like southern Lebanon.
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07-31-2006, 09:30 AM | #675 | |
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I don't completely agree with your statement that the US/coalition goals in Afghanistan were limited to destroying al-Qaeda, it was clear that the ouster of the Taliban government was also a key aim. Even if what you say is true, and US goals were limited to the destruction al-Qaeda, it still seems rather short-sighted not to maintain enough resources in the country to help a nascent (and presumably pro-US) central government consolidate its hold outside of Kabul. I also agree with you that democracy is not really necessary, nor an expected goal. But, from a US perspective, a stable and reliable government should be. Not sure what really can be done at this point (as you point out, by necessity, the warlords were allowed to maintain their power and autonomy), but so long as true power in Afghanistan is not in the hands of the central government but is in the hands of those that have historically pledged their loyalty to the highest bidder, there is always the risk that Afghanistan will revert to governance that is hostile to the US and could perhaps be amenable to hosting terror groups again in the near future... |
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07-31-2006, 09:48 AM | #676 | |
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Lebanon is responsible to stop Hezbollah from attacking Israel. Iraq and the United States are responsible for stopping the PKK. Got that. That is my position, and if I follow most of what political leaders around the world are saying, that is their position as well. Israel isn't getting flak from very many about the fact that they attacked Lebanon. Most criticism comes from the intensity of their response, no one is saying that Hezbollah or Lebanon should be granted some sort of immunity. (Well maybe you and probably Rex) What distinguishes the two is that Iraqi/US forces have hit PKK targets. The government of Iraq, and the United States, has lifted a finger to intervene. That is not the case in Lebanon. If the US and Iraqi government don't do anything further to interdict the PKK, especially now that the Turks have asked, then Turkey would have every right to come across the border and protect its interests. The premise is simple. Governements have certain responsibilities that can't be abdicated. |
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07-31-2006, 09:55 AM | #677 | |
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This I agree with, at least the part where you disagree with Bishop about the goals entering Afghanistan. The single biggest problem I had with the timing of the invasion of Iraq was that we didn't finish the job in Afghanistan first. We should have gone in, and taken care of business there first. I would still have been all for addressing the Iraq situation, including removal of Saddam. That is unless Afghanistan proved to be as tough a nut to crack as post war Iraq has. |
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07-31-2006, 06:04 PM | #678 | ||
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Overall, since 2003, I think we have been taking steps to help consolidate the power and centralize the government, but if you push too hard you face another part of the country in insurgency. As far as Afghanistan resorting back to a hostile gov't amenable to training camps, that's why we kept the NATO force there. Any individual warlord or part of the country may want to declare war on Kabul, but we can play them off each other and keep the NATO force there as easily the most powerful. And no one group other than the Taliban has shown a willingness to take on the Americans and the other ethnic groups. Of course with drug money and a safe haven in Pakistan/possibly Baluchistan, we're never going to eliminate the Taliban, but as my FARC reference alluded to, as long as they are restricted to spoiling attacks in their part of the country and don't control any territory, I'm not worried and think that might be the best possible scenario. Unless you're actually eager to commit more lives and money to possible incremental progression in Afghanistan, instead of just as a foil for those spent in Iraq. Quote:
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07-31-2006, 06:36 PM | #679 |
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Did I miss something between #2 and #3? Anyone know the reason for the turnaround? |
07-31-2006, 07:06 PM | #680 |
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What do people think would happen if whoever speaks for Hezbollah came out and said this:
"We are returning the hostages. Whatever border the international community wishes to draw between Israel and Lebanon, we will respect. We are laying down our arms, and no longer take any interest in the state of Israel, as long as they agree to leave us alone; from here on out we are concerned ONLY with making Lebanon a better place to live." Ok, I know it's a pipe dream. But that's the only way this is going to end. |
07-31-2006, 07:16 PM | #681 | |
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07-31-2006, 07:50 PM | #682 | |
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The 48 hour break was due to the killing of the women and kids.
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07-31-2006, 09:10 PM | #683 | |
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Interesting that Syria has heightened its readiness. History in the making, our kids will read about this war in HS world history. |
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08-01-2006, 12:32 AM | #684 | |
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08-01-2006, 05:48 PM | #685 |
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Looks as if there was a new military operation in Baalbek.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14128276/ Those guys look rough, wouldn't want to mess with them. Funny, I never thought of the IDF having airmobile capability. I'm sure they didn't play Wagner. |
08-01-2006, 06:42 PM | #686 | |
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Only because no one remembered what went on before. Do you even remember what happened in 67 or 73 or that Israel occupied Lebanon until recently? Edward, try a little perspective instead of hyperbole. |
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08-01-2006, 09:10 PM | #687 | |
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08-01-2006, 09:17 PM | #688 | |
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08-01-2006, 09:32 PM | #689 | |
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Allowing the continued action against Hezbollah is a way to stop the war. No action led to Hezbollah firing rockets into Israel and killing and kidnapping Israeli soldiers. |
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08-01-2006, 09:45 PM | #690 |
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Very true Dutch, this unprecedented Middle Eastern violence came out of nowhere.
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08-01-2006, 10:56 PM | #691 | |
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What's your point? |
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08-02-2006, 12:01 AM | #692 | |
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I'd also like to agree with you that continuing the fighting is one way of ending the war. War is, after all, Peace. |
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08-02-2006, 02:57 AM | #693 | |
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The war's toll so far:
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08-02-2006, 11:32 AM | #694 | |
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Peace is peace. Terrorism is a crappy substitute for true peace. And sadly, sometimes war is a means to and end. The Hezbollah terror wing and the Hamas terror wing (and the old PLO terror group) are designed to not allow for peace. Ever. And when will they disband, exactly? When every Jew is dead. That doesn't sound like a very easy peace for Israel. Last edited by Dutch : 08-02-2006 at 11:33 AM. |
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08-02-2006, 11:46 AM | #695 | ||
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The sad thing is, you probably believe that. Hezbollah has apparently said that if Israeli soldiers came into Lebanon, they'd kidnap them. Quote:
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08-02-2006, 12:00 PM | #696 | |
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Way too early to make this claim. If 82 and 96 didn't make it into American history books then this conflict won't since, as it stands right now, the current conflict is basically more of the same. Hell, 48, 67, and 73 barely get a mention now and they were much more significant conflicts. American textbook publishers don't even bother addressing many significant American campaigns against insurgencies as it is. How many of us studied the Philippine-American War in high school? So, I doubt they would bother with some other country's low-intensity conflicts... Last edited by Klinglerware : 08-02-2006 at 09:01 PM. |
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08-02-2006, 12:06 PM | #697 | |
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This is news to me. I thought Hezbollah launched a 'daring' cross-border raid to capture the Isreali soldiers? |
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08-02-2006, 12:31 PM | #698 | |
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According to Forbes and other sources, that's not correct. |
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08-02-2006, 02:04 PM | #699 | |
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08-02-2006, 04:48 PM | #700 | |
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If the "west" doesn't retaliate against "terror", you're saying that will bring peace? |
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