Trayvon Martin case to go to grand jury, Fla. state attorney announces

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

What's the stupid law?

that you can get off murdering someone if you feel they may have theoretically threatened you.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Idiotic to have announced the verdict at this time of night however. I feel for the law enforcement that may have a long night ahead

[Lathum]

Verdict reached

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Idiotic to have announced the verdict at this time of night however. I feel for the law enforcement that may have a long night ahead

what about the jurors? if they dont announce they have to stay in. Cops choose the job, jurors get stuck with it.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

that you can get off murdering someone if you feel they may have theoretically threatened you.

There are only two people who had any idea what happened that night. One is gone and there isn't even close to enough evidence to say beyond a reasonable doubt what happened that night. It sucks but it is what it is -- a bad combination of two people at the wrong time and place, that ended badly.

[Lathum]

Glad the jury ha the guts to make he correct decision.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by cartman

I guess everybody wanted to get out. Not Guilty.

Originally Posted by rowech

There are only two people who had any idea what happened that night. One is gone and there isn't even close to enough evidence to say beyond a reasonable doubt what happened that night. It sucks but it is what it is -- a bad combination of two people at the wrong time and place, that ended badly.

Yep. Agree. It was the right decision, imo.

[cartman]

I was referring to the short period of time between when the announcement of the jury reaching the verdict and the verdict being read.

[SackAttack]

So, speaking very generally - which case has more long-term political fallout: Bush v. Gore in 2000, or Florida v. Zimmerman?

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by cartman

I was referring to the short period of time between when the announcement of the jury reaching the verdict and the verdict being read.

Oh, I was confused. Thanks for the clarification. I agree, I missed the verdict being read because it's usually at least a hour or so before these things are read.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

So, speaking very generally - which case has more long-term political fallout: Bush v. Gore in 2000, or Florida v. Zimmerman?

gotta say bush gore. SCOTUS justices matter more than anything that can fall out from this. even if the riots are OJ bad.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

So, speaking very generally - which case has more long-term political fallout: Bush v. Gore in 2000, or Florida v. Zimmerman?

This case really wasn't that big of a deal. Media did latch on and it was interesting, but these things happen a lot. Bush v Gore had historical implications and Supreme Court justices going against their own principles on both sides.

[Young Drachma]

Not surprising.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

So, speaking very generally - which case has more long-term political fallout: Bush v. Gore in 2000, or Florida v. Zimmerman?

BvG, not even close best I can figure.

Reax to FvZ will largely fall along existing lines anyway, might get a minor localized bump in turnout or something but that's minimal compared to something like BvG.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

that you can get off murdering someone if you feel they may have theoretically threatened you.

Very few people were ever found guitlty of 2nd degree murder in a self defense case. The thing that stuck with me most about the trial was the cop who said he told Zimmerman he had a video and Zimmerman's reaction was "thank God".

Of every piece of evidence, that is either one hell of an actor or a guy who truly felt the video would prove him innocent. I dont think this was a problem with a law, this was a problem with proof. They had none. No law would change that fact.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Very few people were ever found guitlty of 2nd degree murder in a self defense case. The thing that stuck with me most about the trial was the cop who said he told Zimmerman he had a video and Zimmerman's reaction was "thank God".

Of every piece of evidence, that is either one hell of an actor or a guy who truly felt the video would prove him innocent. I dont think this was a problem with a law, this was a problem with proof. They had none. No law would change that fact.

This.

The case should have never even gone this far. The Martin family attorney played a masterful PR game to get the media focus.

I'd think given the evidence that he would have been found innocent in more states than just Florida.

The specific stand your ground law is apparently poorly written to the point it can be abused, but I don't think this is an example of that.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

The specific stand your ground law is apparently poorly written to the point it can be abused, but I don't think this is an example of that.

They didn't use the 'Stand Your Ground' law as their defense.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by cartman

They didn't use the 'Stand Your Ground' law as their defense.

Interesting. I assumed that would have been part of the self defense case. Or even just jury instructions.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sidebar but ... was talking to a friend about the difficulty in avoiding coverage of the trial/reax (they were trying) when I stumble onto espn.com & find the 6th headline as "Athletes react to verdict" or something of that nature.

When Vilma comes off as the relatively sane voice of reason, well ...

edit to add: And what a sad state of affairs when cobbling together tweets is considered newsgathering

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by rowech

There are only two people who had any idea what happened that night. One is gone and there isn't even close to enough evidence to say beyond a reasonable doubt what happened that night. It sucks but it is what it is -- a bad combination of two people at the wrong time and place, that ended badly.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

edit to add: And what a sad state of affairs when cobbling together tweets is considered newsgathering

It seems like this has been CNN's model for a couple years now, and recently I'm noticing it more and more on ESPN, its pretty disheartening.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Radii

It seems like this has been CNN's model for a couple years now, and recently I'm noticing it more and more on ESPN, its pretty disheartening.

Yeah, but look at all the money they save! They are cutting costs! More profitable! It's the wave of the future! WOOOHOOO!

[SackAttack]

That and when you can pluck it off twitter there's none of this 'off the record' or 'my words were twisted' nonsense.

Screenshots.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

That and when you can pluck it off twitter there's none of this 'off the record' or 'my words were twisted' nonsense.

Screenshots.

My account was hacked - every jack ass ever caught sending a stupid tweet

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by TroyF

My account was hacked - every jack ass ever caught sending a stupid tweet

Why hasn't anyone who has been banned figured this out yet? Mrs.Kippy was hacked! OMG! What do we do now!

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sidebar but ... was talking to a friend about the difficulty in avoiding coverage of the trial/reax (they were trying) when I stumble onto espn.com & find the 6th headline as "Athletes react to verdict" or something of that nature.

When Vilma comes off as the relatively sane voice of reason, well ...

edit to add: And what a sad state of affairs when cobbling together tweets is considered newsgathering

Just read the tweets. Good lord. This is going to be like the McDonalds coffeee situation. Anyone who actually bothered to look at the evidence is goimg to realize the rught decision was made. Anyone who devides guilt or innocense through the media will think that the jury was full of idiots.

[Noop]

Smh. Go looking for justice and find just us.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Noop

Smh. Go looking for justice and find just us.

It should have never gone to trial.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

It should have never gone to trial.

Your opinion.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Noop

Your opinion.

Also the chief of police opinion before they fired him because he would not arrest and charge Zimmerman.


If we want to bring up race in this at all, it should be that many African Americans do not get the fair trial Zimmerman received. The focus should be making sure everyone gets a fair trial and that reasonable doubt is used correctly no matter what color you are or what state you are in.

The debate should not be that you put a hispanic guy behind bars despite the facts not adding up.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by rowech

There are only two people who had any idea what happened that night. One is dead and there isn't even close to enough evidence to say beyond a reasonable doubt what happened that night. It sucks but it is what it is -- a bad combination of two people at the wrong time and place, that ended badly.

Minor but important clarification.

So at what point does the Martin family file the wrongful death lawsuit a la the Goldman family?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Minor but important clarification.

So at what point does the Martin family file the wrongful death lawsuit a la the Goldman family?

They have already settled the civil suit.

[cartman]

There was a pretty strong case to argue for manslaughter, but it was a stretch to push 2nd Degree Murder.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by cartman

They have already settled the civil suit.

IIRC that lawsuit was against the Homeowners Association and Zimmerman was not a part of that one.

[cartman]

It was against the HOA since they were using Zimmerman on the community watch. They said at the time of the HOA settlement they also planned to pursue a separate suit against Zimmerman, but it doesn't look like there has been any action on that front.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

IIRC that lawsuit was against the Homeowners Association and Zimmerman was not a part of that one.

I could be 3000 percent wrong on this, but I thought I read something that if someone admitted to the killing and got off by self defense, they could not be held civily liable in Florida.

What I have heard the family and naacp pushing for is that Zimmerman be charged with violating Martin's civil rights. I doubt very seriously those charges are ever given. Just my opinion, nothing surprises me anymore.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I could be 3000 percent wrong on this, but I thought I read something that if someone admitted to the killing and got off by self defense, they could not be held civily liable in Florida.

What I have heard the family and naacp pushing for is that Zimmerman be charged with violating Martin's civil rights. I doubt very seriously those charges are ever given. Just my opinion, nothing surprises me anymore.

That immunity I believe was tied to the 'stand your ground' defense, which he decided not to use.

[Jukeman]

I wonder if GZ ID himself as a night watchmen? Apparently TM doesn't have a right to defend himself but instead should had ran home but yet the same isn't said about GZ? He apparently had a right to kill someone after loosing a fight.

Anyways, I am not surprise with the way this case have gone. It was based on agenda from the get go.

[miami_fan]

Parents Of Trayvon Martin Settle Lawsuit With Sanford Housing Community « CBS Miami

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

I wonder if GZ ID himself as a night watchmen? Apparently TM doesn't have a right to defend himself but instead should had ran home but yet the same isn't said about GZ? He apparently had a right to kill someone after loosing a fight.

Anyways, I am not surprise with the way this case have gone. It was based on agenda from the get go.

If you believe, and I stress this part is if, that Zimmerman lost Martin and was then blindsided by Martin and thrown to the ground, nothing in what you just said stands up. Martin has every right to defend himself if attacked, but there is no evidence I have seen to indicate that happened.

Nobody and I mean nobody can say exactly what they would have done if they were in Martin's shoes. That said, when he jumped Zimmerman, got on top and started wailing on him, it is not defensive anymore and he has no right to self defense at all.

Evn though it seems like I am on Zimmerman's side in this, Im not. He went looking for trouble and found it in Martin. But in our country you need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I do not know how lse to say it, the prosecution never had that here.

[Jukeman]

Originally Posted by TroyF

If you believe, and I stress this part is if, that Zimmerman lost Martin and was then blindsided by Martin and thrown to the ground, nothing in what you just said stands up. Martin has every right to defend himself if attacked, but there is no evidence I have seen to indicate that happened.

Nobody and I mean nobody can say exactly what they would have done if they were in Martin's shoes. That said, when he jumped Zimmerman, got on top and started wailing on him, it is not defensive anymore and he has no right to self defense at all.

Evn though it seems like I am on Zimmerman's side in this, Im not. He went looking for trouble and found it in Martin. But in our country you need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I do not know how lse to say it, the prosecution never had that here.

Im sure if the results was the same and TM was a female GZ would have been in jail. TM would probably be a hero in that situation..

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

I wonder if GZ ID himself as a night watchmen? Apparently TM doesn't have a right to defend himself but instead should had ran home but yet the same isn't said about GZ? He apparently had a right to kill someone after loosing a fight.

Anyways, I am not surprise with the way this case have gone. It was based on agenda from the get go.

Originally Posted by Jukeman

Im sure if the results was the same and TM was a female GZ would have been in jail. TM would probably be a hero in that situation..

Would Zimmerman have followed a girl? Would a majority of girls have been able to jump Zimmerman, throw him to th ground, and then slam his head into the ground?

We can play this game all night. What if TM were a raptor?

We have the facts we have. Zimmerman cannot be changed into a white guy or an indian. TM cannot be a girl, a 12 year old or a dwarf. They are what they are, the facts are the facts, and reasonable doubt is reasonable doubt.

I would lie to think ifthe roles were reversed, I woud have the same opinion. I cannot prove to you I would do this nor will I try. To me this is not about race, it s about facts. No amount of what ifs will change that. The only thing ta would is a compelling change in the facts as they have been presented.

[miami_fan]

It seems to me that there are two distinctive parts of the night in question and I think when you decide to place the main focus is determines where you fall in the entire scenario, not just the case. I think the trial was about the second part. The part where Martin confronted/jumped on/punched Zimmerman. At that point, I guess Zimmerman fears for his life and has the right to self defense. If this is where you place your focus, I think you fall on one side.

The part that I feel has been severely discounted is the first part. Everything that happened prior to the confrontation. I think everyone agrees that if that part does not happen, then we don't get to the second part. Now my personal belief is that Zimmerman's actions in the first part were spurned in part by Martin's race. Do I think that makes him a racist? No. Do I think that it was the only reason he did what he did that night? No. However, I do think that Zimmerman was out to "get" Martin. By "get" I mean he was going to get this kid who he thought had criminal intentions. Again, I did not follow the trail minute by minute day by day so if the actions of both parties (specifically Zimmerman) leading up to the confrontation were addressed, forgive me. Having been in a similar incident in August 2011, this case was hit a bit too close to home to go all in on.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

It seems to me that there are two distinctive parts of the night in question and I think when you decide to place the main focus is determines where you fall in the entire scenario, not just the case. I think the trial was about the second part. The part where Martin confronted/jumped on/punched Zimmerman. At that point, I guess Zimmerman fears for his life and has the right to self defense. If this is where you place your focus, I think you fall on one side.

The part that I feel has been severely discounted is the first part. Everything that happened prior to the confrontation. I think everyone agrees that if that part does not happen, then we don't get to the second part. Now my personal belief is that Zimmerman's actions in the first part were spurned in part by Martin's race. Do I think that makes him a racist? No. Do I think that it was the only reason he did what he did that night? No. However, I do think that Zimmerman was out to "get" Martin. By "get" I mean he was going to get this kid who he thought had criminal intentions. Again, I did not follow the trail minute by minute day by day so if the actions of both parties (specifically Zimmerman) leading up to the confrontation were addressed, forgive me. Having been in a similar incident in August 2011, this case was hit a bit too close to home to go all in on.

In the criminal case, only the second part counts. Im not saying anyone is forced to agree with it, but that is seriously all that matters. I do not discount what Zimmerman did to put himself in the situation. It simply has no relevance in a criminal trial unless the prosecution could prove Zimmerman wanted to kill Martin all along.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by TroyF

In the criminal case, only the second part counts. Im not saying anyone is forced to agree with it, but that is seriously all that matters. I do not discount what Zimmerman did to put himself in the situation. It simply has no relevance in a criminal trial unless the prosecution could prove Zimmerman wanted to kill Martin all along.

No doubt, just as the first part is probably more important in the court of public opinion.

Edit: Actually I should say in the court of a certain segment of the public opinion.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Noop

Smh. Go looking for justice and find just us.

Do you think GZ was proved guilty beyond reasonable doubt?

[Lathum]

It has been hard to read Facebook this morning. People calling for NAACP petitions against GZ, etc. so many people looking just at the race issue. I would love to remind them that Martin referred to GZ as a cracker in his final phone conversation, so he has his own racial bias, but it just isn't worth it.

[Lathum]

Roddy White. Lol.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Roddy White. Lol.

Yeah...I can't believe he posted that.

[rowech]

I think the biggest thing this shows is the need for "instigator" clauses in some of our laws.