2008-2009 College Basketball Thread......

[Radii]

Originally Posted by cartman

The Big 12 is gonna be lucky to have any teams make it to the Sweet 16 this year.

Oklahoma seems fairly likely

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Radii

Oklahoma seems fairly likely

They have a Pomeroy rating of 18, and a Pythagorean SOS of 70, so they are by no means a lock.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by cartman

They have a Pomeroy rating of 18, and a Pythagorean SOS of 70, so they are by no means a lock.

Yeah, OU could stand to be a better defensive team. I also think they play down to their level of competition a lot (which also means they are more likely to get upset and you be right). But, they provide match-up problems inside and it seems that at least one of Johnson, Warren, and Crocker are hitting from the outside and having good overall games offensively. Patillo has provided fresh legs and energy so far since shedding the redshirt and has been a defensive force (7 blocks the past two games off the bench). Depth isn't nearly as much of an issue as before, going pretty much four deep off the pine.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by sooner333

Yeah, OU could stand to be a better defensive team. I also think they play down to their level of competition a lot (which also means they are more likely to get upset and you be right). But, they provide match-up problems inside and it seems that at least one of Johnson, Warren, and Crocker are hitting from the outside and having good overall games offensively. Patillo has provided fresh legs and energy so far since shedding the redshirt and has been a defensive force (7 blocks the past two games off the bench). Depth isn't nearly as much of an issue as before, going pretty much four deep off the pine.

But if Blake Griffin gets in early foul trouble...

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

WOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOO!

It's unfortunate that Mizzou came out with nerves in the first half, but the defense was good throughout and that's what saved MU in the end.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by cartman

But if Blake Griffin gets in early foul trouble...

Yeah, it's happened before. It's not as good, but I do think people believe this team is Blake Griffin and the four dwarfs. That isn't really true. Sure, he's the best player on the team and there's nobody going to question that, lest they be an idiot. But, Willie Warren can step up on offense too. Other guys have been able to as well. Also, I think he's made an effort to stay in games by not fouling (which has led to some of the defensive problems...but probably a good trade-off to keep him in).

Also, another thing that benefits the conference as a whole is the new emphasis on calling games closer in the Big 12, or so it seems. I watched the 2000 Oklahoma-Oklahoma State game the other day and remembered just how much the refs used to let them play. It really hurt all of the teams, I believe, in the tournament when other conference officials would call fouls.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Sounds like there was an altercation at the end of the MU/KU game. Sheron Collins loitered on the court a bit too long and was unable to get through the crowd of students to get to the locker room. Sheron somehow managed to mistake MU Asst. Coach TJ Cleeland for a student (don't know how that happens when he's in a suit) and shoved him out of the way as they were heading for the locker room. KU AD Lew Perkins shot off a comment to nearby MU AD Mike Alden that students would never be allowed to rush the court at KU. Alden basically told him to go screw himself.

I'm guessing these two will not be meeting for dinner when the Tigers head to Lawrence on March 1st for the rematch.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by sooner333

Also, another thing that benefits the conference as a whole is the new emphasis on calling games closer in the Big 12, or so it seems. I watched the 2000 Oklahoma-Oklahoma State game the other day and remembered just how much the refs used to let them play. It really hurt all of the teams, I believe, in the tournament when other conference officials would call fouls.

Boy, you wouldn't have known that watching the MU/KU game last night. People were getting hammered with no call on both sides of the ball. FWIW, that generally benefits MU just because they like to pressure and try to steal the ball. The pressure defense goes down the tubes when the refs call it tight.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Boy, you wouldn't have known that watching the MU/KU game last night. People were getting hammered with no call on both sides of the ball. FWIW, that generally benefits MU just because they like to pressure and try to steal the ball. The pressure defense goes down the tubes when the refs call it tight.

Mizzou still had a lot of free throw attempts. Off the ball it's still somewhat the same, but it seems they are doing a lot more shooting foul stuff and continuations (or saying they were shooting and they get two shots). I know the game I watched was particularly rough and tumble, but just having been watching Big 12 basketball since 98-99, it seems like it's gotten significantly cleaned up.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by sooner333

Also, another thing that benefits the conference as a whole is the new emphasis on calling games closer in the Big 12, or so it seems. I watched the 2000 Oklahoma-Oklahoma State game the other day and remembered just how much the refs used to let them play. It really hurt all of the teams, I believe, in the tournament when other conference officials would call fouls.

That's funny. A lot of PAC-10 fans feel the exact opposite.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

That's funny. A lot of PAC-10 fans feel the exact opposite.

I guess it's just the nature of the fact that the refs aren't standardized (and in fact, independent contracts) across the country. Any time things aren't going the way you're used to it's tough. I always thought ACC and Pac 10 refs were tighter and we'd get fouls called we weren't used to. I guess you guys out west thought that they were getting beat up. Maybe it's good and more refs are calling tighter these days leading to more standardization come tournament time.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I've always had the impression that some of these referees have some pretty big egos. I saw these comments from last night's MU/KU game from a college recruiting scout that attends a lot of games that did little to change that feeling........

*I’ve seen a few basketball games, kids. I’ve seen parents come out of the stands, I’ve seen pepper spray used in AAU gyms, and I’ve seen grown adults throw trash cans at each other over the outcome of a game. But I’ve never, EVER seen a referee with the rabbit-ears that Big XII Referee Rick Hartzell displayed tonight. I was fortunate to have exceptional seats (thank you, RM!!!), and upon an MU fan simply saying “he’s over the back again, Rick!” after one of the many times Cole Aldrich was exactly that, he literally turned to the crowd near the court, made as much eye contact as he could, and shook his head no, all while saying “no he wasn’t”.

Later, he asked that another courtside fan be removed. Now, I don’t know if any profanity was used, and I’m certainly not condoning boorish behavior. But I can tell you that NO ONE near us said anything even remotely offensive, and this man took it upon himself, during one timeout, to utter sarcastically to fellow ref Tom O’Neill, at a decibel level high enough for everyone nearby to hear, “well, I guess we better make ONE call right”. I don’t think he heard me, but I did utter back, “that would be a good start”….though he did briefly look my way, then shortly after ask that someone near us be removed. And to reiterate, I heard NO profanity; in fact, I heard nothing that could be reasonably construed as offensive.

[Dr. Sak]

I would never never never want to be a basketball official.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I would never never never want to be a basketball official.

It's that much more difficult of a job if you have rabbit ears. I was an official for 10 years. If you're listening to the crowd, you're going to have some problems.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I've always had the impression that some of these referees have some pretty big egos. I saw these comments from last night's MU/KU game from a college recruiting scout that attends a lot of games that did little to change that feeling........

Most of the referees I've seen behave like that have probably been insecure about their positions.

There was a guy calling women's basketball games at the JC back home in CA, he was inserting himself into the play from the half-court line, making foul calls on players around the hoop. And he displayed exactly that sort of behavior when the fans started calling him out.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

It's that much more difficult of a job if you have rabbit ears. I was an official for 10 years. If you're listening to the crowd, you're going to have some problems.

Yep and with the way people are today, I don't trust fans coming out of the stands. Hell I had an old man throw his cane at me from outside the fence at a JV Football game.

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by sooner333

I guess it's just the nature of the fact that the refs aren't standardized (and in fact, independent contracts) across the country. Any time things aren't going the way you're used to it's tough. I always thought ACC and Pac 10 refs were tighter and we'd get fouls called we weren't used to. I guess you guys out west thought that they were getting beat up. Maybe it's good and more refs are calling tighter these days leading to more standardization come tournament time.

[bitter Wolfpack fan]ACC refs only call it tight when the jersey color isn't blue.[/bitter Wolfpack fan]

Seriously, it probably is something endemic to all leagues that come NCAA time, nobody's going to believe the stuff that gets called/not called on them because they were getting away/not getting away with it for three months during conference play. I know one of the things ACC fans like to harp on is the fact that Duke and Carolina struggle a bit during the tournament because they suddenly aren't getting the calls anymore.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

the fact that Duke and Carolina struggle a bit during the tournament

*looks at all the final fours and championship banners from the last 27ish years or so*

I'd hate to see what it would have looked like if they didn't struggle so much in the tournament

[RedKingGold]

I was at the Nova-Marquette game tonight, and I was really impressed with Marquette's speed.

Still, Villanova is going to be a tough out in the tournament this year. If they play out the rest of their schedule well, they're all set up for a #3 seed (or better).

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by Radii

*looks at all the final fours and championship banners from the last 27ish years or so*

I'd hate to see what it would have looked like if they didn't struggle so much in the tournament

I didn't say that they didn't win, just that they struggled.

Even so, Duke seems particularly susceptible to this sort of thing as they've not really been an NCAA tournament threat much of this decade but are a dominant ACC team at times.

[cartman]

Texas dismantled Oklahoma State 99-74 to stop their three game slide. Considering that the three losses were by a total of 11 points, with one of the losses in OT and the other two decided on shots with less than 10 seconds left, the rumors of Texas' demise were greatly exaggerated.

This looked like the Longhorn team that beat Villanova, UCLA and Wisconsin earlier this season.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by cartman

Texas dismantled Oklahoma State 99-74 to stop their three game slide. Considering that the three losses were by a total of 11 points, with one of the losses in OT and the other two decided on shots with less than 10 seconds left, the rumors of Texas' demise were greatly exaggerated.

This looked like the Longhorn team that beat Villanova, UCLA and Wisconsin earlier this season.

Good. UCLA needs Texas to play better to reflect better on themselves.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

I was at the Nova-Marquette game tonight, and I was really impressed with Marquette's speed.

Still, Villanova is going to be a tough out in the tournament this year. If they play out the rest of their schedule well, they're all set up for a #3 seed (or better).

'Nova has really stepped it up in the last month or so.

Depending on how they all finish, it is quite possible that five Big East teams land top 3 seeds in the tourney.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

Even so, Duke seems particularly susceptible to this sort of thing as they've not really been an NCAA tournament threat much of this decade but are a dominant ACC team at times.

Duke have pretty much looked shakey as hell each NCAA tournament game I can recall watching them in over the past half-decade or so.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

[bitter Wolfpack fan]ACC refs only call it tight when the jersey color isn't blue.[/bitter Wolfpack fan]

Seriously, it probably is something endemic to all leagues that come NCAA time, nobody's going to believe the stuff that gets called/not called on them because they were getting away/not getting away with it for three months during conference play. I know one of the things ACC fans like to harp on is the fact that Duke and Carolina struggle a bit during the tournament because they suddenly aren't getting the calls anymore.

just find "the infamous ACC index card" The number of fouls called on any team goes up 11% in the last 15 years when they play Duke and UNC, and the their opponent fouls go down, 15%... That said, I am still confused how Clemson is ranked #9 destroys #3 Duke 9abyone who saw the game knows it was bad) then loses on a last second to FSU (unranked) and the polls vault FSU to #25 slide Duke back to 6 and drops Clemson to #12 and #11....admitedly Im new to this caring about college basketball thing but doesnt seem quite right

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

just find "the infamous ACC index card" The number of fouls called on any team goes up 11% in the last 15 years when they play Duke and UNC, and the their opponent fouls go down, 15%...

To be fair, for the most part of 15 years both schools have been top-flight teams. What are the statistics for schools when playing top-10 or top-25 teams in general? I'd expect an increase in fouls for and a decrease in fouls against in general.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by cartman

the rumors of Texas' demise were greatly exaggerated.

I think it's also a sign that the Big 12 North is a lot better than anyone thought. Teams like Baylor are not living up to expectations for whatever reason (*cough* Scott Drew). Texas Tech is terrible. Oklahoma State isn't far behind the Red Raiders. Texas A&M has talent but something is wrong there.

Nebraska is doing it on heart and solid play despite nobody is above 6-6 in the starting lineup. Kansas State is putting it together. Missouri is a top 15 team it's looking like. KU is solid. Iowa State and Colorado are the only bad teams up North but CU is actually putting together a string of close losses (which is good for them...I like the Princeton system for the Buffs).

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by cartman

This looked like the Longhorn team that beat Villanova

Cool.

UCLA

Cool!

and Wisconsin.

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaha.

Would this be the same Wisconsin that lost six straight, capping the streak with a loss to NORTHWESTERN, until they beat Illinois (in Madison)?

I know I'm supposed to support them, adopted state and all, but they're 5-6 in the Big Ten and 9-3 outside it, with only UConn (L), Marquette (L) and Texas (L) and possibly Virginia Tech (W) worth a damn in that non-conference schedule. Yeah. The three teams worth a damn they played, they lost to by an average of 9 points. I wouldn't hold them up as a quality win for Texas, even though Texas is a fine team themselves.

[BishopMVP]

Maybe not quite the right thread, but interesting story up here about a girl who just broke the girls state scoring record held by Rebecca Lobo. She's headed to U Memphis in the fall. What notable about this? She's a devout Muslim who plays wearing the hijab and full coverings Covered in glory - The Boston Globe

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I know it's a sidebar to the main focus for the men's game here & everything but watching this really makes me think that there's something to the feature I saw CNN run over the weekend about how the physiology of young women was so different from that of young men and the role that plays in increased injuries, specifically knee injuries. Something to the effect that lateral movement was more natural for growing boys while growing girls tended to be more vertically oriented & that explosive lateral movement wasn't something they were designed for. I'm sure that rankles some folks but I didn't make it up, the core of of the story was a female researcher who wasn't saying anything needed to be done differently or suggesting any restrictions but just dealing with the reality of the physical differences.

I thought it had something to do with girls naturally walking/jumping off their heels while boys did it on their toes and that strengthens the calf/knee muscles accordingly. Not sure why anyone would get mad - it's pretty undeniable that ACL injuries are much more common among girls who play basketball than guys.


Also, I don't know who saw the end of Florida-UK, but damn. Jodie Meeks 3 to win it was ridiculous.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

just find "the infamous ACC index card" The number of fouls called on any team goes up 11% in the last 15 years when they play Duke and UNC, and the their opponent fouls go down, 15%...

You mean that teams commit more fouls when they play against teams filled with more athletic, more talented players? Shocking!

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

Duke and Carolina struggle a bit during the tournament because they suddenly aren't getting the calls anymore.

Umm Duke and Carolina do very well in the tournament.

In part because they get very generous calls.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Would this be the same Wisconsin that lost six straight, capping the streak with a loss to NORTHWESTERN, until they beat Illinois (in Madison)?

I know I'm supposed to support them, adopted state and all, but they're 5-6 in the Big Ten and 9-3 outside it, with only UConn (L), Marquette (L) and Texas (L) and possibly Virginia Tech (W) worth a damn in that non-conference schedule. Yeah. The three teams worth a damn they played, they lost to by an average of 9 points. I wouldn't hold them up as a quality win for Texas, even though Texas is a fine team themselves.

I had Wisconsin listed, because they were something ridiculous like 92-8 at home under Bo Ryan up to that point. They've subsequently lost several more home games since then, but at the time it was considered incredibly tough for a visiting team to leave Madison with a W.

[Butter]

Xavier/Dayton tonight on ESPN Classic. A classic small-school rivalry... if you get bored waiting for Duke/UNC, or don't feel like watching the US-Mexico soccer game on ESPN2, flip by. It is usually a very intense game, and especially closely fought when it is in Dayton.

[DataKing]

Regarding all of the discussion earlier about referees, so long as the refs' calls are consistent over the course of a game, I'm happy. Good teams adjust to the type of game the referees are calling. More banging and tough interior play of the refs are calling it loose, and more dribble-drive offense when they're calling it tight. But what angers me to no end is when the calls change in the middle of a game. You can't expect kids to shift their play style in the middle of a game, when what was being permitted in the first half is suddenly being called in the second.

And props to Mizzou for a job well done Monday night. They recovered from an absolutely horrid first half and their pressure defense finally started to pay off late (and just in the nick of time, too). We'll see you again in 3 weeks, and ye best pay heed.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by DataKing

Regarding all of the discussion earlier about referees, so long as the refs' calls are consistent over the course of a game, I'm happy. Good teams adjust to the type of game the referees are calling. More banging and tough interior play of the refs are calling it loose, and more dribble-drive offense when they're calling it tight. But what angers me to no end is when the calls change in the middle of a game. You can't expect kids to shift their play style in the middle of a game, when what was being permitted in the first half is suddenly being called in the second.

I know that Mizzou players are taught to pressure heavily early in the game to 'test' how tight the referees will call the game. They'll initiate a lot of body contact and will reach in and slap the arm to see if the ref will call it.

[DataKing]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I know that Mizzou players are taught to pressure heavily early in the game to 'test' how tight the referees will call the game. They'll initiate a lot of body contact and will reach in and slap the arm to see if the ref will call it.

I was a fan of Mike Anderson and his "forty minutes of hell" defense when he was at UAB. I was actually rather upset when I learned that Mizzou had hired him. I don't want to hate him...but...well...he's the Mizzou coach now, so I guess I must.

[Wolfpack]

Yeay! We beat Wake, but for the love of Mike, enough with blowing 20-point leads already! From what I gather (since the game wasn't televised), Wake jumped on State a bit early, but then State used junk defenses to lock Wake and particularly Jeff Teague down, building a 20-point lead with 13 minutes to go. State then started collapsing just like they did against Virginia Tech and Wake managed to cut it to 78-76 with under a minute to go before State managed to ice it at the line.

[BishopMVP]

Am I the only one not getting UNC-Duke in HD? UNC-Duke is on Channel 49 (ESPN) but 849 (ESPNHD) is showing a Kansas State-Texas Tech blowout with ESPNU banners on the sides.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Am I the only one not getting UNC-Duke in HD? UNC-Duke is on Channel 49 (ESPN) but 849 (ESPNHD) is showing a Kansas State-Texas Tech blowout with ESPNU banners on the sides.

Make sure you don't have it on a local channel... that doesn't sound right though. I have no idea if Raycom's ACC contract rights extend up to MA now that Boston College is in the ACC, down here ESPN is blacked out and we are getting the local Raycom broadcast on CBS (no Vitale, hooray!)

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Radii

Make sure you don't have it on a local channel... that doesn't sound right though. I have no idea if Raycom's ACC contract rights extend up to MA now that Boston College is in the ACC, down here ESPN is blacked out and we are getting the local Raycom broadcast on CBS (no Vitale, hooray!)

I am watching it in Cambridge near BC's campus. Comcast claims that due to contracts somehow Texas Tech-KSU has "precedence". I would care more, but UNC was on an 11-0 run while I was on the phone and it's up to a 14-pt game, so I don't care.

[Noop]

Lawson is amazing, I am surprised Duke hasn't learned to get a decent post game by now.

[Radii]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.


Lawson is indeed amazing. Watching him burn Paulus over and over was easily the highlight of the evening.

[Tigercat]

LSU is the most underrated basketball team in the country, and I don't think it is even close. Is the SEC pretty poor this year? Sure. But to lead any major conference by two full games at this time of the year and not be ranked in the top 25 is a bit off.

It seems like all the college basketball "Experts" give too much credit to winning/losing on the road out of conference (when teams aren't fully "gelled" and there isn't conference pride on the line) and too little credit to winning on the road in conference. Unless that conference is the Big East or ACC of course.

Ah well, with LSU's experience level and Trent Johnson coaching his ass off, I expect LSU to make some noise in the tournament this year, under the radar or not.

[sterlingice]

I think some people are starting to take notice. I can't remember who it was, but some national basketball guy was talking on Kansas City sports talk about LSU this past week as a real dark horse and someone to watch come tourney time.

SI

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

New Bubble Watch is up. Glad to see Mizzou in as a lock.

College Basketball Bubble Watch - NCAA Men's Basketball - ESPN

[RainMaker]

Big Illinois-Northwestern game. NU had a shot at potentially getting back in the tourney talk with a win. The blew around a 10 point lead with 2 minutes left. Was up big throughout most of the game. Team literally turned into a high school team the last 2 minutes. Couldn't get the ball past half court, two travels, bad passes, and a jump ball.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Big Illinois-Northwestern game. NU had a shot at potentially getting back in the tourney talk with a win. The blew around a 10 point lead with 2 minutes left. Was up big throughout most of the game. Team literally turned into a high school team the last 2 minutes. Couldn't get the ball past half court, two travels, bad passes, and a jump ball.

I don't think they literally turned into a high school team unless there was some sort of time travel involved

SI

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Looks like Cole Aldrich's phone number got posted on a KSU message board.

College Basketball: Cole Aldrich Does Not Appreciate Your Prank Calls (With Update)

I remember when the Antlers held up Ryan Robertson's phone number on a sign during a KU/MU game several years ago. He had to get his phone number changed.

[cartman]

Texas finally won a close game again. They had a chance to put away Colorado with a couple of minutes left, but they allowed the Buffs to come back and take the game into OT, after Damion James missed two free throws with less than 2 seconds left. But the Longhorns dominated in OT and came away with the road win, 85-76.

[Arles]

Arizona has won 7 in a row (including wins over UCLA and Washington) to go from "dead" to bubble team. Still a bit of a stretch, but who knows...