Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's weird to me that the brought in Gallows, Anderson, Styles, and Balor and have yet to do much Bullet Club related. I know they don't own the rights to it but I'm sure they could just call it The Club like they did early on or Balor Club which is on Finn's shirts.

It's the WWE trying to buy up assets so no one can compete. There is no other way to look at it. They saw weakness when NJPW had 1 year contracts for all it's wrestlers and made them pay by taking AJ, Gallows, Anderson and Naka.

If the UFC is worth 4 billion, what value is WWE? Buying wrestlers is just taking other companies assets. ROH will be next with Adam Cole being the first. They took TNA's best thing in the Hardy's. Now they have set out on taking out women's by getting Stardom wrestlers.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Also, how is the company not embarrassed by last weekend? The developmental brand made complete fools out of the main roster show. Two guys I've never heard of fighting for a belt I know nothing about had the best match of the year for the company. That tag ladder match was better than any tag match WWE has put on in years (and Authors of Pain are pretty green in the ring). Roode and Itami was miles ahead of Jinder and Orton.

And how did this company fuck up Bayley already? The easiest character in the world to get over.

It's fresh matches in NXT because we don't see them ever day. NXT can have a shit show not involving their top talent because no one watches or cares about their ratings. Same reason people can like a 205 match @ PPVs but who honestly watches that show?

They taped 3 weeks of shows April 19th. Roode and Asuka didn't wrestle on those shows. Those guys look fresh at the PPV but it's because NXT doesn't have to answer to advertisers and ratings.

It's easy to screw up Bayley because she can't talk. She would have benefited by being moved to SD to develop like Bliss did on the SDLive aftershow. But how many NXT people have been able to get their gimmick over on the main roster recently?

[murrayyyyy]

House of Horrors was gold compared to the This is your life Bayley segment. Just when you think the WWE can't get any worse, their insult to Bayley is she use to watch RAW/Smackdown back growing up. So the WWE writers are suggesting that no one should watch those shows?!?!

[Mota]

Well, the WWE are the worst at booking. Only their deep pockets and the fact they have no competition keep them in business.

Bayley in NXT. Super popular. Appeals to a totally new market. They build a company around her. She is everybody's favorite big sister.

Bayley in WWE. She is a geek. Nobody wanted to be friends with her. She was a wrestling fan, and would bring her dad on every date. She is everybody's loser sister.

That essentially is the same way they treated Daniel Bryan with being a vegan. Anything that they don't fully understand, they must ridicule and make fun of.

One thing that they do understand is big jacked up dudes, with pimples all over their backs. That's why they shove Reigns, Stroman and now Mahal down our throats every week. But they care about the wrestlers' health, all those enlarged hearts are precious to them.

[RainMaker]

So is WWE coming out with a UK show? I want to see more Pete Dunne.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

It's easy to screw up Bayley because she can't talk. She would have benefited by being moved to SD to develop like Bliss did on the SDLive aftershow. But how many NXT people have been able to get their gimmick over on the main roster recently?

Bayley just has to do her thing and come up short for a year or two. She's the lovable underdog who is so close but continuously gets screwed or just misses the getting to the top. I think she's incredibly easy to book.

[PilotMan]

I absolutely love me some Alexa Bliss, but damn, that was as close to a squash match as I've seen either of them involved in. You thought that Bayley was knocked down a peg before, now? Damn.

I like the booking, but they've taken away any momentum that Bayley every had. I wonder if they're trying to build her up for some kind of Daniel Bryant type run later on?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I absolutely love me some Alexa Bliss, but damn, that was as close to a squash match as I've seen either of them involved in. You thought that Bayley was knocked down a peg before, now? Damn.

Will's comment here was "who did Bayley piss off in the office"?

On a surprisingly positive note, the pre-show match was actually decent -- and told a story, however weak that story might be -- which is several times better than what I would have expected from it on paper.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The strategy of the double escape tag title match ... well, dumb, repeatedly.

[murrayyyyy]

So much for that womens revolution. Bliss dominates and Sasha is shucking and jiving opposite alicia fox. The sad part is that im struggling to remember the other women on RAW.

[murrayyyyy]

So Cena is tweeting that he can't wait until 7-4 (filming movie right now). So are we to assume that Cena goes over the Jinder on the 4th of July in his return to Smackdown?

Bittersweet day today as I begin another night in Atlanta. Such a funny movie but #SDLive @WWE is so close! 7/4 can't get here fast enough!

— John Cena (@JohnCena) May 30, 2017

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The strategy of the double escape tag title match ... well, dumb, repeatedly.

Cage matches are kind of silly when they have a door you can walk out too. Why would anyone climb the cage over just walking out the door?

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

So Cena is tweeting that he can't wait until 7-4 (filming movie right now). So are we to assume that Cena goes over the Jinder on the 4th of July in his return to Smackdown?

Bittersweet day today as I begin another night in Atlanta. Such a funny movie but #SDLive @WWE is so close! 7/4 can't get here fast enough!

— John Cena (@JohnCena) May 30, 2017

Bringing Cena back on July 4th seems like a really dumb idea from a TV ratings perspective. I guess if he is gonna win the title that night from the "evil foreigner" it makes sense, but otherwise it's probably more beneficial to hold it back a week and not get hurt by the holiday.

[JonInMiddleGA]

NJPW Dominion card is pretty crazy stacked.

[Suicane75]

Been waiting for this one since the Dome. Gonna be interesting to see how this show plays out in regards to the Long Beach cards. I just NJPW would make a friggin Roku app already. It's 2017, I shouldn't have to sit in front of my computer just to watch a live wrestling show from Tokyo broadcast over the internet at 3am!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Been waiting for this one since the Dome. Gonna be interesting to see how this show plays out in regards to the Long Beach cards. I just NJPW would make a friggin Roku app already. It's 2017, I shouldn't have to sit in front of my computer just to watch a live wrestling show from Tokyo broadcast over the internet at 3am!

We've got a c.f. in terms of watching it. This show pushed the kid over the edge into subscribing ... only to realize minutes later that he can't watch live in the morning 'cause he has to be on the road to Charlotte bright & early tomorrow :/

[RainMaker]

Jon might be best at answering this but at what point would WWE be in trouble of either losing or having their TV deal cut dramatically with USA?

They did 2.5 million on Monday night which is OK I guess but I also remember TNA was doing 1 million consistently and no one wanted them.

I'm not saying they are in trouble but at what number would USA look at things and say "running re-runs of Modern Family is cheaper". If I remember correct, I mean WCW was doing great at one point and then a few years later couldn't get themselves a TV deal.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Jon might be best at answering this but at what point would WWE be in trouble of either losing or having their TV deal cut dramatically with USA?

They did 2.5 million on Monday night which is OK I guess but I also remember TNA was doing 1 million consistently and no one wanted them.

I'm not saying they are in trouble but at what number would USA look at things and say "running re-runs of Modern Family is cheaper". If I remember correct, I mean WCW was doing great at one point and then a few years later couldn't get themselves a TV deal.

Here's the thing you have to remember though, USA is the one who wanted 3 hours, not WWE. That, and for all the talk of ratings decline, which is horrific it's true, it's still among the top rated shows of the night every Monday. USA has also done a good job of increasing ad rates for the show.

All of that was culled from Meltzer who has really done a good job assessing the situation the past few weeks.

[RainMaker]

Yeah they seem safe but WCW seemed safe too at one time. All it takes is a new person to take over USA and decide to change direction.

I'm just wondering at what point would they have to worry. I always thought it was weird TNA couldn't get a home with a million viewers each week.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Bad sign that it seems to have been worse than the Memorial Day episode (when ratings are always down).

Worth noting, probably, just for historical relevance that Memorial Day ep was the 2nd lowest rated Monday episode in the history of WWE or WCW, only one Nitro ever did worse. Not sure if this latest one will fall below that or not.

In reality though, we're talking about a show being "down" ... while still finishing 2nd for the night. (and doing almost double the numbers of BCSaul, just for a data point).

I think the 3rd hour probably has to go away, it's dragging down the ratings for at least the past few weeks (not sure how long that's been the case). And that's something that ought to be telling the bookers something, your main events that you spend two hours building up to are shedding viewers in the 18-49.

I'd say they're probably fine with USA - in terms of staying on the air - as long as they stay north of something like a 0.8 or even 0.7 with 18-49s. Below that and you do kinda drift into some danger I'd think.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Ah, just realized something, Monday dip coincides with NBA Finals (which were up year-to-year last I saw). As long as they go back to the 1.1 of the previous week then this is, relatively speaking, probably just a blip in the grand scheme.

I mean, a 0.5 was top five for cable this past Monday.

Also, drilling down (Showbuzzdaily site actually has better demo breakouts than I'm used to seeing published anywhere else), even with the lackluster total rating Raw still had 50% more males than the next closest non-sports program (Love & Hip Hop), and at least double the number of males of anything else including the sports on cable (Finals were on network I guess).

That's the hardest thing to get on TV these days - men - so it's still quite valuable to advertisers.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And that's something that ought to be telling the bookers something, your main events that you spend two hours building up to are shedding viewers in the 18-49.

Have they gone back to the 3rd hour with the "main event". Seemed like they had pushed it to hour 2 this year.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Have they gone back to the 3rd hour with the "main event". Seemed like they had pushed it to hour 2 this year.

Shows you how often I bother with Raw itself probably.

I mean, what the hell comes after the main, the post-show?

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Shows you how often I bother with Raw itself probably.

I mean, what the hell comes after the main, the post-show?

The death segment, then the semi main event.

It definitely seemed like they went to the big segment for the night starting around 10pm, and then closing the show with another upper card match.

But at this point, the show just bleeds together for me.

[RainMaker]

Smackdown did only had 2.07 million viewers on Tuesday night.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Smackdown did only had 2.07 million viewers on Tuesday night.

Smackdown was so much fun right after the brand split. My buddy and I even made a point of it to get together and watch it for about the first 6 weeks. Then the bottom fell out and they completely ruined it.

Orton/Wyatt was a fun angle at the start with Randy clearly becoming a family member just to infiltrate and destroy from the inside. Thought it was gonna be a really fun build and maybe even give Harper a good rub if the story played out nicely. We know how that turned out.

American Alpha/USO's looked set to feud over the tag straps, they even teased it early on. Then Rhyno & Slater came along and while the skits were funny, they made the who tag division a joke and proceeded to do nothing with Alpha or The Usos forever.

Alexa/Becky/Mickey were doing fun stuff and having decent matches every week. Then shoehorned Naomi in for whatever reason, totally fucked up the belt situation leading into Mania and even with Charlotte there, the writing has continued to suck.

AJ/Cena stuff was awesome, but they sacrificed AJ's title run so they could hot potato it to Cena/Wyatt/Orton/Jinder. I have no idea why they felt the need to make Wyatt/Orton a title program. Given a quality storyline they could have had some great matches and didn't the title involved. They got a shit story, had shit matches that were corny than a cob, and totally killed the momentum of both men AND the title.

Corbin has floundered. I like him, I know some don't, but he's yet another example of a guy they sort of push, but not really, and at some point he just becomes a body. It's like calling up a starting pitcher for the sole purpose of eating innings. He feels like he's just there till the next body comes along.

The draft didn't help at all, just same level guys making lateral moves.

Talking Smack was must watch during the first two months as well, but they've managed to neuter that too.

Ugghh.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The discussion about Raw's format (and my apparent blissful ignorance of it) made me curious about something, so I'm gonna do a little exercise. I want to see what the WWE roster looks like in terms of "people I'd intentionally watch" and how they're distributed across the brands. This is kind of an on-going thing in talks about storylines, potential programs, etc. here at my house since my son has to correct me fairly frequently about who is where, etc.

I'm using Wiki for brand assignments & active status, I've found it to be as up to date as anywhere for that info generally speaking.

Raw: Wyatt, Ambrose, The Revival (when healthy), Balor, Miz, Joe, Rollins
maybe Cesaro. And I'd watch Cass/Enzo talk

Raw Cruisers: Gallagher (most watchable guy on their roster to me atm), Aries,Kendrick, maybe Neville, maybe Tozawa,

Raw Women: none off-hand

Smackdown: AJ, Cena (against a decent worker), Owens, Orton (against somebody decent), Shinsuke, Breeze for the comedy. Zayn against someone that can go. Maybe Dillinger just to see if he's gonna make it.

Smackdown Women: Becky, Charlotte

NXT: Roode, Itami, Gargano, Strong, Tomasso
NXT Women: Asuka (quite possibly the best I've ever seen in a U.S. ring), maybe Cross

Unassigned: Pete Dunne, Mark Andrews, Tyler Bate, maybe Trent Seven.

I may have missed someone here but this seems pretty complete.

So what did I learn here?
Counting some "half credit" here & there
Raw has 11 people I wanna see over three hours
S'down has about 8-9 over two hours
NXT has 6 over one hour

Putting all that on paper kind of makes my own viewing habits make sense. I watch more NXT than anything else, with more stuff like the CW & UK specials next, and then Raw/Smackdown are kind of there but generally watch recaps/highlights and some PPVs.

The ratios of what interests me on a per-hour basis is about the same for the two main brands at this point. And, as I suspected from the beginning, the brand split manages to effectively weaken both brands enough that I'll pass over them both rather than creating two shows that I want to engage with regularly.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That little exercise also explains why I know more about who is doing what to whom in NJPW -- or at least care more -- than I do about the WWE.

It's got it's own issues (the random six-man matches start to get kind of blurry pretty quickly, the almost on-the-fly Heyman ECW feel to some of the undercard matchups) but on the whole it's simply a more interesting & entertaining product to me at this point.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That little exercise also explains why I know more about who is doing what to whom in NJPW -- or at least care more -- than I do about the WWE.

It's got it's own issues (the random six-man matches start to get kind of blurry pretty quickly, the almost on-the-fly Heyman ECW feel to some of the undercard matchups) but on the whole it's simply a more interesting & entertaining product to me at this point.

It's even worse being on the west coast feeds. I can hop on reddit and see all the results to see if the show is even worth watching. When I see that Smackdown has about 25 total mins of wrestling on a 2 hour show I feel the need/desire to watch it. I still record the shows but can't tell you the last time I pulled one of those recordings up to watch.

The best thing that the WWE does (IMO) is what prevents me from tuning in every week. Their promos before every match on a PPV tell you what you missed. For all the good these promo pieces do, it give you a great cliff notes version of what happened over 12+ hours of programming between PPVs and gives you an even better reason not to watch weekly. Almost a SportsCenter version of Sunday NFL action. Just the important shit and to me that is worth $9.99 a month.

[General Mike]

Watching New Japan tonight on AXS for basically the first time ever. Really enjoyed it.

[Toddzilla]

Those New Japan Cup matches were....well....stiff?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Watching New Japan tonight on AXS for basically the first time ever. Really enjoyed it.

Where is AXS in terms of story? Just starting NJ Cup maybe?

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Where is AXS in terms of story? Just starting NJ Cup maybe?

Last night they showed the semi-finals and the final.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Last night they showed the semi-finals and the final.

{nods}

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just caught up with NJPW Dominion.

Damn. Yeah, I think Omega/Okada topped the previous one.

Whether it's THE best match I've seen in my life (as Meltzer has suggested) is something I'd have to really think about.

But what a friggin' performance.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Just caught up with NJPW Dominion.

Damn. Yeah, I think Omega/Okada topped the previous one.

Whether it's THE best match I've seen in my life (as Meltzer has suggested) is something I'd have to really think about.

But what a friggin' performance.

I thought it was better, but it did have the advantage of having the story of the first match to help build it. 3rd match is gonna be huge.

[JonInMiddleGA]

2 decent (or more) matches, 2 schmozz finishes.

Let's hope that ain't a trend for the night

[Neon_Chaos]

Jinderrific!

[General Mike]

terrible show in every aspect

[JonInMiddleGA]

a reasonably well booked MITB doesn't save a relatively bad show

As twitterverse put it (Bryan & Vinny maybe?) ... not sure you could add all the stars here and get to 6.5

[JonInMiddleGA]

And so now I figure
tagged for guesses that do kinda reference tonight's results

Spoiler

Cena over Jindar
Corbin cashes on Cena
AJ vs Shinsuke vs #1 contender
Corbin vs Shinsuke for title

[murrayyyyy]

So is the RAW midcard writer able to do anything for the main event scene?

Titus brand, Enzo/Cass and maybe Axle+Bo+Miz now while the main event scene is "I want this guy" and then forget about it the next week because "I want this guy now".

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

So is the RAW midcard writer able to do anything for the main event scene?

Titus brand, Enzo/Cass and maybe Axle+Bo+Miz now while the main event scene is "I want this guy" and then forget about it the next week because "I want this guy now".

I kinda feel bad for Miz honestly. "Here, let us strap some dead weight to you, see if you can get it over too". Not sure anything is going to make Titus interesting for me.

I have not yet seen the Enzo/Cass segment in question so I'll withhold judgment.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Roster for G1 is announced.

The rather obvious omission is the name Cody Rhodes (telegraph a title change much?)

The big name here, along with those you expect, is the return of Ibushi.

[Suicane75]

Ibushi/Omega at some point is going to be fantastic. It's the slowest of burns.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The rather obvious omission is the name Cody Rhodes (telegraph a title change much?)

In ROH or in NJPW? Thought he's rumored to be taking the belt off Daniel soon. Wouldn't make sense for him to win a belt and go overseas and lose a bunch. That's the WWE formula once you win a belt.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

In ROH or in NJPW? Thought he's rumored to be taking the belt off Daniel soon. Wouldn't make sense for him to win a belt and go overseas and lose a bunch. That's the WWE formula once you win a belt.

In NJPW. That seems glaringly obvious to be coming up in Long Beach. Otherwise why is Okada in G1?

*Though doing my homework says that it's actually normal for them to be there apparently, just rarely to make the final. (Only 5 times)

[RainMaker]

Still trying to learn about NJPW. Aren't they crowning a new US Champion for the company? Any rumors on who that might be?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Still trying to learn about NJPW. Aren't they crowning a new US Champion for the company? Any rumors on who that might be?

Single elimination tournament at G1 in bracket form.

Elgin v Omega
Lethal v Hangman
Juice v Sabre
Ishii v Naito

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Still trying to learn about NJPW. Aren't they crowning a new US Champion for the company? Any rumors on who that might be?

There's honestly a case to be made for almost anyone in the bracket. You could book something useful with a lot of the options.

More questions than answers to this one I'm afraid.

Juice? He's in line for a push & would be an English speaking U.S. title holder.

Lethal? Elgin? U.S. belt could be defended more frequently in the States with guys who are mostly here with ROH.

Sabre? An interesting & respectable choice, not sure where he's going to spend most of his time over the next 3-6 months though.

Ishii? A former ROH TV Champ, I think he's deserving of a belt but I'm not sure if he's got quite the sparkle you might want for an inaugural titleholder

Omega? Several ways to go here. Does he get saddled with the secondary title, denying him the one he really wants? Does he get to the final & walk away, saying it's not the belt he wants? Does he get "little brothered" by a new (hypothetical) champ Rhodes?

Naito? Sexy choice probably, due to the storyline they did with him holding (and hating on) the IC belt. Does he treat this one with respect? Does he do the same shtick with the US belt?

Page? Probably the only guy that I can't make much of a case for honestly. You could do something with him having it during a (hypothetical) Bullet Club breakup ("you're the 'elite' ... but we've got more gold") but past that, I dunno how else it'd make sense