The Trump Presidency – 2016

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by panerd

Really? We have now reached the point where the American flag/National Anthem are referred to as symbols of white privileged? The hyperbole on both sides continues to amp up with each passing day.

I'm with you. When the flag/anthem are symbols of white privilege "in today's world", its a reach for me.

I do believe there is a difference between pre-Trump (e.g Kaepernick) and post-Trump. I think the NFL players & owners reaction re: post-Trump will go away after they feel they have made the "we are united statement" (and when fans continue to boo).

The pre-Trump stuff will continue but in bits-and-pieces.

[molson]

Originally Posted by panerd

Really? We have now reached the point where the American flag/National Anthem are referred to as symbols of white privileged? The hyperbole on both sides continues to amp up with each passing day.

It's funny because I've read about a million times on facebook this week about how the protest has nothing to do with the flag, the anthem, or the country as a whole. I'm sure for some of the individuals protesting it doesn't, but that idea is clearly out there. But if you disagree with that aspect of the protests, then you have a racist agenda.

I think unless you're trying to start your own country, we need your help to make this one better. Just being in broad perpetual opposition to everything doesn't do that. The bad guys now the public servants, the people who are actually a part of the systems. The good guys are the privileged white people on facebook and this board who like to imply how superior and enlightened they are and how it's the other white people that are the real problem. It's like their privilege doesn't count and they don't have to do anything to cede it or make the country better as long as they say the right things on social media.

[Suicane75]

I have no issue either way with the "protests", I think it's silly from both sides. I do have issues with a bunch of millionaires whose grandest gesture is kneeling or locking arms. Put your money where your mouth is or at the very least speak out and try and start a debate about particular issue, instead of making a broad, general, non statement about nothing particular, in particular.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I have no issue either way with the "protests", I think it's silly from both sides. I do have issues with a bunch of millionaires whose grandest gesture is kneeling or locking arms. Put your money where your mouth is or at the very least speak out and try and start a debate about particular issue, instead of making a broad, general, non statement about nothing particular, in particular.

I agree but would take that a little further beyond just the millionaires but also to where the real heart of white privilege is - suburbia and the upper middle class. It's fascinating how many of my friends from the northeast with $500k houses have proclaimed themselves the true authority on the evils of white privilege, police officers, government, etc. I have an acquaintance like this from the Boise North end (rich, liberal area), always kind of smugly talking down to me about what he's figured out about society and state and local government. The attack on the "1%" kind of freed the rest of the privileged from personal moral responsibility.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I have no issue either way with the "protests", I think it's silly from both sides. I do have issues with a bunch of millionaires whose grandest gesture is kneeling or locking arms. Put your money where your mouth is or at the very least speak out and try and start a debate about particular issue, instead of making a broad, general, non statement about nothing particular, in particular.

I would argue that they are getting attention for the issue in a way which giving interviews off the field would never do.

I'd also say they're fairly brave to do so as it is obvious that there could be backlash from such actions in a sport where there are a large proportion of fans who might not appreciate their gestures and thus they could find themselves unemployed potentially.

[CrescentMoonie]

I'll also point out that the number of players that knelt/sat in week 2 was 14. Then the racist idiot POTUS mouthed off to distract his braindead base from the latest batch of failures on his part and the number jumped to over 200.

[molson]

Which is why the issue "getting attention" now is Trump and the nature of protests, whether people should protest, and how others should react to those protests. And just my personal stance, not saying what everyone else should do, I'm much more a fan of anti-Trump protests than the original protest directed against the country more broadly. And obviously, the majority of players are on the same page.

[tarcone]

Im not sure these "protests" are getting the attention they are looking for.

There is a lot of misconception on what the protesters stand for, what they are protesting.

A lot of people see them disrespecting the military. The men and women that have died for their right to protest.

This is not an effective way to protest. and now you see it ending.

Go out and be leaders in your community. Use these millions of dollars you get for playing a game and help the disadvantaged in the areas where the economic situation is dire. Go and help prop up those areas. So the criminals are not the leaders.

Instead of kneeling, do something.

What is it they want? White people to feel "uncomfortable" is one thing i've heard. That sounds racist to me.

The problem is with the culture. And these young men and their millions could go a long way of changing that culture, instead of trying to make the white man feel bad and give them something.

[Easy Mac]

They actually do donate the money. And they speak out against police violence. But when they do, they're told their opinion isn't wanted and to stick to sports by the same people who get mad when they're currently protesting. Maybe its not the problem of the people protesting, but the people who don't want them protesting not wanting to listen.

You can't have the President calling a specific subset of Americans sons of bitches and expect them not to get upset about that. If people don't take as much offense to that as people kneeling during the anthem, then maybe nothing will get through.

[molson]

Originally Posted by tarcone

What is it they want? White people to feel "uncomfortable" is one thing i've heard. That sounds racist to me.

I think I kind of get this. There's an idea that there's rich, comfortable white people that largely stay out of politics - the "moderates" that MLK wrote about from his jail cell. They want everything to be quiet and peaceful and while they generally support social justice and equality in their heads, they don't want any upheavals or big changes to get there.

So a guy like Tom Brady, who is, by all accounts, not a deep thinker, kind of a dumb jock, not politically outspoken. But - he's been socially friendly with Donald Trump and donated to his campaign. So people want to hold him accountable for that, to drag him into the fray, and force him to make at least a verbal stand against Trump, and he did. I think some of the protesters want to drag more comfortable white people into the fray and either make them uncomfortable or force them to more actively confront issues in America.

What bothers me is why only certain white people are supposed to be uncomfortable and why others seem to really relish in this. If suburban white liberals are super gung-ho on facebook about supporting the protests, are the protests really working? Why do some white people get to complain about how other white people are the real problem, without a hint of irony? What needs to be done to make THEM uncomfortable, to make them leave their comfort zone and willfully join the fight or cede some white privilege, or to take it from them somehow? Maybe that's the difference between the protesting athletes who are trying to say all the right things v. the more militant BLM types, the latter is trying to drag more comfortable whites into the things in a way that makes them uncomfortable.

There's this random scene from the movie Parenthood (of all things) that always sticks in my head - when Jason Robards is talking about how you never really win at life, you never cross the finish line, you just keep fighting the whole time. I think the USA is the same way. It's not just broadly good or broadly evil, it's something that we just always have to fight for to make better, even though we'll never really win. Which is why I personally don't like the broader anti-flag or anti-USA rhetoric and protests. I think about public defenders I've known - nobody directly checks government abuses more than they do, and at least in my neck of the woods, they tend to be very patriotic. Their patriotism is a different flavor than that of most police or military or prosecutors, but it can be just as fervent. (I know one that has the 6th amendment tattooed on his back). They're hyper-connected to the concepts of America and justice and the constitution because they're working every day to promote those things and make the country better. To me that's so much more noble than just be generically and broadly opposed to vague concepts from the distance.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Im not sure these "protests" are getting the attention they are looking for.

There is a lot of misconception on what the protesters stand for, what they are protesting.

A lot of people see them disrespecting the military. The men and women that have died for their right to protest.

This is not an effective way to protest. and now you see it ending.

Go out and be leaders in your community. Use these millions of dollars you get for playing a game and help the disadvantaged in the areas where the economic situation is dire. Go and help prop up those areas. So the criminals are not the leaders.

Instead of kneeling, do something.

What is it they want? White people to feel "uncomfortable" is one thing i've heard. That sounds racist to me.

The problem is with the culture. And these young men and their millions could go a long way of changing that culture, instead of trying to make the white man feel bad and give them something.

I'm not sure I agree with last 2 paragraphs but on the rest.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Go out and be leaders in your community. Use these millions of dollars you get for playing a game and help the disadvantaged in the areas where the economic situation is dire. Go and help prop up those areas. So the criminals are not the leaders.

I would say this is "yes and" statement rather than an "either or"

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

They actually do donate the money. And they speak out against police violence. But when they do, they're told their opinion isn't wanted and to stick to sports by the same people who get mad when they're currently protesting. Maybe its not the problem of the people protesting, but the people who don't want them protesting not wanting to listen.

You can't have the President calling a specific subset of Americans sons of bitches and expect them not to get upset about that. If people don't take as much offense to that as people kneeling during the anthem, then maybe nothing will get through.

I agree with everything you just said. The problem is that a lot of people see the particular incidents, the guys in St. Louis, Louisiana, Oklahoma, as justifiable. I see them as justifiable, and I'm not racist. So they then ask, is that what they're protesting? The message of this being a systemic issue is not clear, because they aren't coming out and stating a coherent, streamlined viewpoint. To do things like donate and speak out on a local level is one thing, to do it on a national level is not something I've seen them do. Maybe they have and I'm just missing it. But it seems to me that it's a very vague or broad message, and if you really want things to change, it can't be broad or vague. I'd like someone to use the platform they have to open a meaningful discussion. Call a press conference, do a sit down with a major news outlet, form a group with a clear message and outline the issues, etc. To just say, "were protesting the way black people are treated in America", isn't going to get much done, I don't think.

[Easy Mac]

Well, I mean, LeBron got all kinds of crap from "true Americans" when he talked about and protested the Travon Martin shooting. He got crap when he criticized the cops in Cleveland who shot the kid holding a toy gun. People don't want to hear it if you're rich and when they do they criticize the messenger and ignore the message.

[Easy Mac]

I mean, is it really a coincidence that people who take videos burning their jerseys or season tickets only started doing it after Donald Trump said something about it? It wasn't like Kaepernick wasn't a story last year, but they still went to games and bought tickets and bought memorabilia.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by molson

What bothers me is why only certain white people are supposed to be uncomfortable and why others seem to really relish in this. If suburban white liberals are super gung-ho on facebook about supporting the protests, are the protests really working? Why do some white people get to complain about how other white people are the real problem, without a hint of irony? What needs to be done to make THEM uncomfortable, to make them leave their comfort zone and willfully join the fight or cede some white privilege, or to take it from them somehow? Maybe that's the difference between the protesting athletes who are trying to say all the right things v. the more militant BLM types, the latter is trying to drag more comfortable whites into the things in a way that makes them uncomfortable.

If all that white people are doing is complaining (on facebook), then yes, it's doing more harm than good.

What I think is needed from the white community is empathy. Understanding white privilege and the experience of the other seems impossible now. Immediately it is turned in to victim hood and myopic reactions.

We say they (white liberal and millionaire players) should be in the community rather than disrespecting a bystanders patriotism. But that very act of being a change agent requires an empathy no one seems to exhibiting now.

As an aside, I was so proud of the work my wife did on this YMCA campaign and commercial:
The Y: US (:90) - YouTube

[molson]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I mean, is it really a coincidence that people who take videos burning their jerseys or season tickets only started doing it after Donald Trump said something about it?.

It happened before that in response to Kaepernick alone. The scope was probably just more narrow then, it was largely 49ers fans, before it became a league-wide thing.

WATCH: 49ers fan burns Kaepernick jersey while playing national anthem - CBSSports.com

You can find people burning jerseys and other things for all kinds of dumb reasons on the internet. It's just a question of which ones become national viral news through social media for whatever reason. I don't know who gets to decide that, whether it's Russia, or if we do it collectively. I've always wanted to do a social experiment to see if I could make an anonymous video with dumb backyard hi-jinks and see if I can make it a part of the national conversation.

[tarcone]

My question: If a rich white person goes into a ghetto and says he/she is an agent of change. He/she is there to change the culture. To help families stay together. To fight drug addiction. To invest in small business in the community. To rid it of crime. Is he/she going to be taken seriously? Will his/her message fall on deaf ears because he/she is white?

What if a kid that got out of the ghetto and is playing for an NFL/NBA/MLB team comes into that ghetto with the same intentions? Will he be taken more seriously? Will he be looked upon as a savior?

This is what Im talking about when I talk about changing culture. And It isnt just the ghetto. It is poor white rural areas as well. Single families, drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, no hope for a future. This is what neds to change in theses settings.

And the agent of change has to be someone who understands the area and the people. A bunch of white, liberal people can help. But I think there is an anticipation of the other shoe falling. They will leave and the area is back to the way it was.

The culture of these areas is what has to change. 2 parent families, elimination of drugs, creation of business in the community. These things would help rid the injustice and police brutality.

[JPhillips]

Protest is about visibility. It won't and can't solve any problem on its own.

Protest is always inconvenient and disruptive, because that's the only way to get visibility. Remember that over 60% of people thought the early sixties lunch counter sit-ins were counter productive.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by tarcone

A lot of people see them disrespecting the military. The men and women that have died for their right to protest.

The majority of people I see that complain that it's disrespectful to the military have never served.

Originally Posted by tarcone

Go out and be leaders in your community. Use these millions of dollars you get for playing a game and help the disadvantaged in the areas where the economic situation is dire. Go and help prop up those areas. So the criminals are not the leaders.

Can you say for certain these guys aren't doing that?

Originally Posted by tarcone

The problem is with the culture. And these young men and their millions could go a long way of changing that culture, instead of trying to make the white man feel bad and give them something.

This paragraph I don't get at all. I honestly don't know what you're really trying to say here. Unless you're saying black millionaires should go deal with black people problems and leave white people out of it instead of everyone coming together to support one another?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by tarcone

My question: If a rich white person goes into a ghetto and says he/she is an agent of change. He/she is there to change the culture. To help families stay together. To fight drug addiction. To invest in small business in the community. To rid it of crime. Is he/she going to be taken seriously? Will his/her message fall on deaf ears because he/she is white?

What if a kid that got out of the ghetto and is playing for an NFL/NBA/MLB team comes into that ghetto with the same intentions? Will he be taken more seriously? Will he be looked upon as a savior?

This is what Im talking about when I talk about changing culture. And It isnt just the ghetto. It is poor white rural areas as well. Single families, drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, no hope for a future. This is what neds to change in theses settings.

And the agent of change has to be someone who understands the area and the people. A bunch of white, liberal people can help. But I think there is an anticipation of the other shoe falling. They will leave and the area is back to the way it was.

The culture of these areas is what has to change. 2 parent families, elimination of drugs, creation of business in the community. These things would help rid the injustice and police brutality.

And this tells me you miss the entire point.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Atocep

And this tells me you miss the entire point.

Then tell me the point

[CrescentMoonie]

I don't know who Meghan Linsey is, but I'm now a fan.

Also, at what point to we admit that "disrespect" is the alt-right word for uppity?

I’m a white country singer. I still took a knee after I sang the national anthem at an NFL game. - The Washington Post

"In the past few days, I have received death threats and had cancer wished upon me by the same people who claim to be great patriots. I’ve had people say that they should have executed me on the field. People are threatening my life because the idea that someone who looks like me would act against racism upsets them so much."

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Atocep

The majority of people I see that complain that it's disrespectful to the military have never served.




Can you say for certain these guys aren't doing that?




This paragraph I don't get at all. I honestly don't know what you're really trying to say here. Unless you're saying black millionaires should go deal with black people problems and leave white people out of it instead of everyone coming together to support one another?

What Im saying is that the culture of the poor has to change.

Check into Ruby Payne. She wrote some great books. They talk about the culture pf poverty. The poor do not know how to operate in a middle or upper class setting. The poor make fun of people who go to school and get degrees. And I could go on.

But this is a culture. When these young men get shot, I think they know it is the nature of the business. Stockley was a heroine dealer. Did he think he was going to retire as a heroine dealer? Is there a 401k for that profession? No.

The inner city, and the poor rural areas live a certain way. That is their culture.

And who gets worked up when a white cop shoots a black thug? People clamoring for change? Some, sure. But not all. It seems to me it is just another way to get themselves noticed.

Change the culture. That is what Im saying. And the fact that you think changing the justice system is going to cut down on crime makes me think you have no clue what is going on.

[JPhillips]

The Senate budget resolution agrees to add 1.5 trillion to the debt over the next ten years.

Everything's a con.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by tarcone

What Im saying is that the culture of the poor has to change.

Check into Ruby Payne. She wrote some great books. They are talk about the culture pf poverty. The poor do not know how to operate in a middle or upper class setting. The poor make fun of people who go to school and get degrees. And I could go on.

But this is a culture. When these young men get shot, I think they know it is the nature of the business. Stockley was a heroine dealer. Did he think he was going to retire as a heroine dealer? Is there a 401k for that profession? No.

The inner city, and the poor rural areas live a certain way. That is their culture.

And who gets worked up when a white cop shoots a black thug? People clamoring for change? Some, sure. But not all. It seems to me it is just another way to get themselves noticed.

Change the culture. That is what Im saying. And the fact that you think changing the justice system is going to cut down on crime makes me think you have no clue what is going on.

Whether inner-city or rural small town, nobody is going to be successful coming into an area with a message of, "I'm here to change your culture."

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Then tell me the point

I'm a white person that's lived and been around both extremes you mentioned and I've never seen sincere help turned away. I'm sure it happens, but I've never personally witnessed it. Even when it does happen if you're actually there to help people rather than make yourself feel better by trying to help them you move on to the next family or next community and you try to help them. Does it make any sense at all to think "you're black (or white) and didn't accept my help so no black people will"?

Throwing your hands up and not trying because a white person won't be taken seriously when trying to help black communities is part of the problem. There's no attempt to even understand one another and solve common problems. White community problems aren't just problems for white people and black community problems aren't just problems for black people. Seeing it in those terms is one of the biggest problems we have in regards to race in this country. These problems have an impact on everyone.

It's not about changing your culture or theirs. It's about having a better understanding of one another seeing things from their perspective. If you (collectively, not you) tune out the message because you don't agree with it then maybe that's because it hits too close to home and you should pay more attention to it.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Whether inner-city or rural small town, nobody is going to be successful coming into an area with a message of, "I'm here to change your culture."

And that is the problem. Changing culture is a slow, long process.

But wouldn't a person from the area have a better chance?

I remember when Magic Johnson opened movie theaters in poor areas. That was a thing right? He was trying to bring jobs to the area. Admirable. But I think that was a band aid.

Creating opportunities for the young that don't involve drugs is hard to do.

When they see the drug dealer driving the sweet car and flashing wads of cash. And compare that to going to school for a future opportunity, maybe. What is a young man, with no male role model going to do?

Again, is changing the justice system going to change how this works?

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I'm a white person that's lived and been around both extremes you mentioned and I've never seen sincere help turned away. I'm sure it happens, but I've never personally witnessed it. Even when it does happen if you're actually there to help people rather than make yourself feel better by trying to help them you move on to the next family or next community and you try to help them. Does it make any sense at all to think "you're black (or white) and didn't accept my help so no black people will"?

Throwing your hands up and not trying because a white person won't be taken seriously when trying to help black communities is part of the problem. There's no attempt to even understand one another and solve common problems. White community problems aren't just problems for white people and black community problems aren't just problems for black people. Seeing it in those terms is one of the biggest problems we have in regards to race in this country. These problems have an impact on everyone.

It's not about changing your culture or theirs. It's about having a better understanding of one another seeing things from their perspective. If you (collectively, not you) tune out the message because you don't agree with it then maybe that's because it hits too close to home and you should pay more attention to it.

Im not advocating throwing up your arms. I get that. What my point was, is a person who is from that area and is successful is going to have more sway and a better chance of affecting change.

You are wrong about the culture. Im talking about the culture of the poor. They live a certain way. they learn to game the system. They rarely have a 2 parent household. They dont know how to operate in a middle class or upper class situation. That is the culture Im talking about.

When there has been generations of single parent households and crime and government handouts, that is the culture you learn to live and become part of. But it is a culture that isnt one that will lead to a "successful" life.

This is the change that has to happen.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by tarcone

My question: If a rich white person goes into a ghetto and says he/she is an agent of change. He/she is there to change the culture. To help families stay together. To fight drug addiction. To invest in small business in the community. To rid it of crime. Is he/she going to be taken seriously? Will his/her message fall on deaf ears because he/she is white?

Yes, those are the huge systemic problems. However, you seem to be referencing an individual- what can an individual do, correct?

As someone who has worked exclusively in/with communities of need for my entire professional career I can say the most effective thing individuals can do is help close the opportunity gap.

This means, at the very least, serving those in the communities who want to be served (mostly children). Providing safe places were they can play, learn, create and lead. For example, many poor communities use libraries as after school day care. Providing homework help, medical screenings, health education, SAT and college application and aid prep, reading to kids, and on and on, goes further in closing that opportunity gap than most people think.

The point is, providing some basic things that most middle class and up groups take for granted can have near immediate positive results practically and culturally.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I have no issue either way with the "protests", I think it's silly from both sides. I do have issues with a bunch of millionaires whose grandest gesture is kneeling or locking arms. Put your money where your mouth is or at the very least speak out and try and start a debate about particular issue, instead of making a broad, general, non statement about nothing particular, in particular.

Kaepernick did pledge and has donated $1 million to small charities.

Kaepernick's charity work putting NFL owners in disgraceful light - NY Daily News

A lot of players donate money too.

Also what's with the "bunch of millionaires" crap as an insult. Many of the players grew up incredibly poor and have now made a good living for themselves. Isn't that the American Dream? It's not really directed at you but at the right in general. A side of politics that never stops talking about how great capitalism is and the American Dream. Now in this scenario the millionaire is the bad guy. Almost like this type of millionaire has something different about them that makes it more appealing to trash.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Yes, those are the huge systemic problems. However, you seem to be referencing an individual- what can an individual do, correct?

As someone who has worked exclusively in/with communities of need for my entire professional career I can say the most effective thing individuals can do is help close the opportunity gap.

This means, at the very least, serving those in the communities who want to be served (mostly children). Providing safe places were they can play, learn, create and lead. For example, many poor communities use libraries as after school day care. Providing homework help, medical screenings, health education, SAT and college application and aid prep, reading to kids, and on and on, goes further in closing that opportunity gap than most people think.

The point is, providing some basic things that most middle class and up groups take for granted can have near immediate positive results practically and culturally.

Im happy you are doing that. Well done.

And maybe that is the answer. Maybe that does help change the culture.

But how do you help? And is that enough?

Change is tough. And your idea is a good one.

I guess i was going a more macro route with the rich investing in the community.

You are going a micro way that sounds great.

But what happens when you leave? Like at night. And the kid has a crappy home and a crappy mom and no dad and no food and no water or electricity or whatever. And Joe drug dealer shows up and offers the kid food and money and a room at the building he owns that has all those things. And he is a male role model that is always around, not just for a couple hours a week?

I really like what you are doing and suggesting. I do.

Is that what these protests are about? Or are they about changing the justice system and making sure the police are neutered?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Well, I mean, LeBron got all kinds of crap from "true Americans" when he talked about and protested the Travon Martin shooting. He got crap when he criticized the cops in Cleveland who shot the kid holding a toy gun. People don't want to hear it if you're rich and when they do they criticize the messenger and ignore the message.

People apparently want to hear it when it comes from a rich billionaire though. Just not a millionaire with darker pigment.

Lebron is also spending $41 million to pay for over a thousand kids college tuition. He put his money where his mouth is.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by tarcone

My question: If a rich white person goes into a ghetto and says he/she is an agent of change. He/she is there to change the culture. To help families stay together. To fight drug addiction. To invest in small business in the community. To rid it of crime. Is he/she going to be taken seriously? Will his/her message fall on deaf ears because he/she is white?

What if a kid that got out of the ghetto and is playing for an NFL/NBA/MLB team comes into that ghetto with the same intentions? Will he be taken more seriously? Will he be looked upon as a savior?

This is what Im talking about when I talk about changing culture. And It isnt just the ghetto. It is poor white rural areas as well. Single families, drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, no hope for a future. This is what neds to change in theses settings.

And the agent of change has to be someone who understands the area and the people. A bunch of white, liberal people can help. But I think there is an anticipation of the other shoe falling. They will leave and the area is back to the way it was.

The culture of these areas is what has to change. 2 parent families, elimination of drugs, creation of business in the community. These things would help rid the injustice and police brutality.

Have we as a nation acknowledged that there is injustice and police brutality in the country as yet? Because, if we are actually acknowledging it as a thing, then I would call Kaepernick's protest a small step towards success.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Have we as a nation acknowledged that there is injustice and police brutality in the country as yet? Because, if we are actually acknowledging it as a thing, then I would call Kaepernick's protest a small step towards success.

Im assuming this is the cornerstone of the protests. Is there injustice? I dont think so. I do know that if you can afford a good lawyer you get off or a lighter sentence. Is that injustice? Nah. Anyone who can afford a lawyer is afforded this.
is there systematic police brutality? I dont think so. Are there isolated incidents? Sure. No profession is clean. there are bad apples everywhere.

But my understanding is that this is why there are protests at this point.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Im happy you are doing that. Well done.

And maybe that is the answer. Maybe that does help change the culture.

But how do you help? And is that enough?

Change is tough. And your idea is a good one.

I guess i was going a more macro route with the rich investing in the community.

You are going a micro way that sounds great.

But what happens when you leave? Like at night. And the kid has a crappy home and a crappy mom and no dad and no food and no water or electricity or whatever. And Joe drug dealer shows up and offers the kid food and money and a room at the building he owns that has all those things. And he is a male role model that is always around, not just for a couple hours a week?

I really like what you are doing and suggesting. I do.

Is that what these protests are about? Or are they about changing the justice system and making sure the police are neutered?

Thanks.

Again this comes down to empathy. My guess this worst case example you gave is less than 1% in the Bay Area. A good friend of mine runs the program for the most troubled youth in the state, the kids that live in the environment you described. The irony is, these families are known by every agency and we have spent millions on them. Literally, there is one family that the estimate was over 2 million- massive addiction, mental health and kids.

The vast majority of people in these communities are not lost causes. At the very least it's the 80/20 rule here. I think you are typical in that most people without experience in the communities would say most are lost causes (without macro solutions).

Providing the youth with the opportunity to thrive will change both the poor and not poor communities for the better. I think a lot of the protests were by people who lacked opportunity ( and the education and skills to advocate).

I worked at a school in sf 15 years ago where most of the kids had not only never been to the ocean (less than 2 miles away), most have never been more than a mile from the neighborhood. When we did take them to the ocean, zoo, park, museum they flourished- like "typical" kids. Since then, private and local funding has created a great neighborhood center, filled with volunteers and run (awesomely) by the local grandmas.

Here's a blurb from their mission statement, I think they are doing everything on your wish list:

We offer comprehensive programs and services that include afterschool enrichment, academic support, arts and recreation, technology education, leadership development, job skills and career development, and community service learning opportunities. In addition, we offer wellness services that support the physical and behavioral health needs of youth by providing mental health and trauma counseling, substance abuse prevention and treatment, gang prevention and intervention, case management services for transitional aged youth and diversion youth, life skills and family support workshops, information and referral services. During the evenings, we offer educational, recreational and enrichment classes to parents, adults, and families in the community.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Im happy you are doing that. Well done.

And maybe that is the answer. Maybe that does help change the culture.

But how do you help? And is that enough?

Change is tough. And your idea is a good one.

I guess i was going a more macro route with the rich investing in the community.

You are going a micro way that sounds great.

But what happens when you leave? Like at night. And the kid has a crappy home and a crappy mom and no dad and no food and no water or electricity or whatever. And Joe drug dealer shows up and offers the kid food and money and a room at the building he owns that has all those things. And he is a male role model that is always around, not just for a couple hours a week?

I really like what you are doing and suggesting. I do.

Is that what these protests are about? Or are they about changing the justice system and making sure the police are neutered?

Honestly, you're looking at it all the way down to the individual level when talking about help while at the same time talking about changing culture. If that's how you're approaching a change in culture you'll count more losses than wins. Some people think the few wins make up for all the loses while some just don't have the stomach for it.

Originally Posted by tarcone

Change the culture. That is what Im saying. And the fact that you think changing the justice system is going to cut down on crime makes me think you have no clue what is going on.

I don't think I've ever mentioned changing the justice system.

And I do find it funny that someone that appears very naive on race, bigotry, and understanding poor culture is lecturing me.

I grew up with my grandmother who worked a minimum wage, part time job to support us. My grandfather died when I was an infant and she was left with almost nothing and very little education. I never knew my father and my mother had little interest in raising me until she had no choice after my grandmother was in an accident when I was 15 and she had to take me in. I ended up enlisting in the military when I was 19 because it was either that or be homeless. I've lived in incredibly poor white neighborhoods and incredibly poor black neighborhoods. I've lived the things you're describing above.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Atocep

The majority of people I see that complain that it's disrespectful to the military have never served.




Can you say for certain these guys aren't doing that?




This paragraph I don't get at all. I honestly don't know what you're really trying to say here. Unless you're saying black millionaires should go deal with black people problems and leave white people out of it instead of everyone coming together to support one another?

Yes Air Force vet here too and I have noticed that not only are those who have never served the most offended by flag burnings, these kneel-downs etc. but they also are the most pro war. Funny how all that goes. Regardless, if someone wants to say they don't like something fine but don't say they are doing it because it disrespects all vets.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The Senate budget resolution agrees to add 1.5 trillion to the debt over the next ten years.

Everything's a con.

I think there's just a dissonance between debt as an individual thing and debt as a collective/country. I assume that it just seems un-fathomable that our creditors would actually call us on it if the debt got too high. Or, that if they tried in the future, our current fiscal plan for the country is so brilliant that it'll be fixed before its an issue.

Meanwhile earlier this year a collection agency tried to con me out of around $1k because they said I owed for a $150 ambulance ride about a decade ago. Thankfully I had the same bank account and told them I could provide documentation it was paid if they didn't leave me alone, and they haven't bugged me since.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I'm a white person that's lived and been around both extremes you mentioned and I've never seen sincere help turned away. I'm sure it happens, but I've never personally witnessed it. Even when it does happen if you're actually there to help people rather than make yourself feel better by trying to help them you move on to the next family or next community and you try to help them. Does it make any sense at all to think "you're black (or white) and didn't accept my help so no black people will"?

Throwing your hands up and not trying because a white person won't be taken seriously when trying to help black communities is part of the problem. There's no attempt to even understand one another and solve common problems. White community problems aren't just problems for white people and black community problems aren't just problems for black people. Seeing it in those terms is one of the biggest problems we have in regards to race in this country. These problems have an impact on everyone.

It's not about changing your culture or theirs. It's about having a better understanding of one another seeing things from their perspective. If you (collectively, not you) tune out the message because you don't agree with it then maybe that's because it hits too close to home and you should pay more attention to it.

Great post man and +1000.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Honestly, you're looking at it all the way down to the individual level when talking about help while at the same time talking about changing culture. If that's how you're approaching a change in culture you'll count more losses than wins. Some people think the few wins make up for all the loses while some just don't have the stomach for it.



I don't think I've ever mentioned changing the justice system.

And I do find it funny that someone that appears very naive on race, bigotry, and understanding poor culture is lecturing me.

I grew up with my grandmother who worked a minimum wage, part time job to support us. My grandfather died when I was an infant and she was left with almost nothing and very little education. I never knew my father and my mother had little interest in raising me until she had no choice after my grandmother was in an accident when I was 15 and she had to take me in. I ended up enlisting in the military when I was 19 because it was either that or be homeless. I've lived in incredibly poor white neighborhoods and incredibly poor black neighborhoods. I've lived the things you're describing above.

Im not trying to lecture. I apologize if I was.

But your right, I am pretty naive when it comes to the poor. I was upper middle class growing up. Raised in Iowa. The majority of black people I saw were athletes at the University of Iowa. At least until I graduated HS.

I do have interaction now with many homeless and poor people. And I can only go on my interaction with them.

Also, the Ruby Payne books Ive mentioned above. Which is very interesting stuff.

I apologize if you thought I was lecturing you.

And congrats on getting out. And Im sure the military went a long way in teaching you how to live in different economic surroundings.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

I think I kind of get this. There's an idea that there's rich, comfortable white people that largely stay out of politics - the "moderates" that MLK wrote about from his jail cell. They want everything to be quiet and peaceful and while they generally support social justice and equality in their heads, they don't want any upheavals or big changes to get there.

This is right on, 100%.

What bothers me is why only certain white people are supposed to be uncomfortable and why others seem to really relish in this. If suburban white liberals are super gung-ho on facebook about supporting the protests, are the protests really working? Why do some white people get to complain about how other white people are the real problem, without a hint of irony? What needs to be done to make THEM uncomfortable, to make them leave their comfort zone and willfully join the fight or cede some white privilege, or to take it from them somehow? Maybe that's the difference between the protesting athletes who are trying to say all the right things v. the more militant BLM types, the latter is trying to drag more comfortable whites into the things in a way that makes them uncomfortable.

This is also right on, 100%. There are those folks who believe that simply expressing solidarity is enough. Which, while nice, doesn't particularly do much.

That being said, as some have pointed out, a lot of football players actually DO give back to the community. Kaepernick, for one, has done quite a number of things. I think that some players believe that it isn't enough for just them to give some money back, but the entire society has to realize that these neighborhoods need a lot of help (and if it's just from athletes then the kids in those hoods think that being an athlete is the only real way out).

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

The majority of people I see that complain that it's disrespectful to the military have never served.

So you are saying non-military don't have a right to say it?

... or are you saying they are incorrect and majority of people that have served in the military are okay with the protests or they don't see it as disrespecting the flag?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Kaepernick did pledge and has donated $1 million to small charities.

Kaepernick's charity work putting NFL owners in disgraceful light - NY Daily News

I'm interested in knowing if he did this before or after the backlash to his kneeling/sitting? I think he started his protest in Aug 2016?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Yes Air Force vet here too and I have noticed that not only are those who have never served the most offended by flag burnings, these kneel-downs etc. but they also are the most pro war. Funny how all that goes. Regardless, if someone wants to say they don't like something fine but don't say they are doing it because it disrespects all vets.

You know, I tried looking for a poll on military/vets opinion on the controversy. Don't see one yet. If you have a poll, please link it.

I guess you are saying the majority of military/vets don't think kneeling in protest disrespects the flag?

I'm thinking more that military/vets will say they fought for this right to protest but it does disrespect the flag.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

So you are saying non-military don't have a right to say it?

... or are you saying they are incorrect and majority of people that have served in the military are okay with the protests or they don't see it as disrespecting the flag?

I think it's interesting that the people most vocal in saying it disrespects our military have not served. Yet those tend to be the same group that call liberals snowflakes for getting offended by things that don't directly relate to themselves.

They have every right to be offended and say what they want. I do, however, think the message is lost in this instance when you believe kneeling is disrespectful but have no problem with people doing things that actually against the United States flag code.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Im assuming this is the cornerstone of the protests. Is there injustice? I dont think so. I do know that if you can afford a good lawyer you get off or a lighter sentence. Is that injustice? Nah. Anyone who can afford a lawyer is afforded this.
is there systematic police brutality? I dont think so. Are there isolated incidents? Sure. No profession is clean. there are bad apples everywhere.

But my understanding is that this is why there are protests at this point.

How would you define injustice and police brutality? What evidence would you need to see to convince you that there is injustice and systematic police brutality?

I don't want you to think I am playing some sort of got ya game with the questions. I am not. I ask because I truly believe that these sort of conversations go off the track early because different sides are operating under different definitions of these terms. I also think we are also at a point where if the evidence does not come from our favorite think tank side, we are not going to give it any credence.

[miami_fan]

Here is ONE vet's take

Here's how Nate Boyer got Colin Kaepernick to go from sitting to kneeling - CBSSports.com

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I think it's interesting that the people most vocal in saying it disrespects our military have not served.

May be true on this FOFC board. Not sure I believe this out in the real world. Waiting to see a poll on military/vets opinion on this.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Atocep

They have every right to be offended and say what they want. I do, however, think the message is lost in this instance when you believe kneeling is disrespectful but have no problem with people doing things that actually against the United States flag code.

I have learned a lot about flag code throughout this. I'm not the type to care much for symbolism anyway, so it doesn't really bother me, but how many of the people who are so upset at the disrespect these folks are showing the flag are ok with the following disrespectful rules regarding the flag that are broken on a daily basis:

The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery.

The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever.

No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.