Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[CrescentMoonie]

Terrible. Just one of the worst Rumble matches in a while. Nothing truly interesting. Lots of buildup but no surprises. Cena vs Orton should induce a mass walkout at WM just like Hunter vs Reigns did. Smackdown is going to suck for the next 2 months until WM is over and Vince forgets about it again.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Taker got fat.

Indeed. Plus he looked like he was getting dizzy just from being in the ring.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just spent about 20-30 minutes getting caught up by my kid.

I'm not sure I've heard him use the phrase "shit show" with more venom, nor the phrase "minus five stars ... for booking" with more angst.

Sounds like a major let down all around.

[Mota]

Worst. Rumble. Ever.

Vince obviously watches a whole different show than we do.

You could just hear the energy get sucked out of the room once Undertaker was eliminated. Anybody else winning at that point was a complete disapointment. Randy Orton as the winner? It was a million times better than the horrible, horrible Roman Reigns, but his time came and went about 10 years ago. He should be a midcarder, not main eventing Wrestlemania.

Once again, it showed Vince's obsession with big guys, as they got all the spotlight in this match, and made all the eliminations. Sure, a few little guys lasted long, but did they actually eliminate anybody? Did they do anything, other than take the big guys' finishing holds over and over again? No. I guess someone needs to take these finishers, because Braun Stroman sure couldn't sell anything. He essentially is paid to just stand there as little guys fly all around him to make him look good. And that's what they did tonight. Everybody practically killing themselves and risking injury to make some talentless big guys look good. That is the WWE.

Anyways, back to me not watching WWE, I'll be back for Wrestlemania, and that's pretty much it. NJPW and ROH don't let me down like this. It's too bad, because usually the Royal Rumble matches are pretty good.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

So Cena vs. Orton at Wrestlemania? Or do we get something at the Elimination Chamber.

Wyatt winning EC. Orton vs Wyatt @ WM.
UT vs Roman
Goldberg vs Lesnar

That leaves Cena facing???

[dubb93]

That Cena/Styles match is what should have closed Mania. I think Cena has ran his course personally, but it is hard to argue against either guy when the match is that well executed. Cena can still bring it, I just think he acts like too much of a goof anymore on TV. It doesn't come off as well as it did 5-10 years ago.

As for the Rumble match itself, if you don't have an obvious winner maybe you should put over someone new and interesting. I hate the call to go with Orton. Have all the big guns eliminate each other and then let one of the younger guys shine. I feel like besides the storyline with Brock Lesnar at Summerslam (although he WAS an afterthought in that match), Orton has been an afterthought for a very long time. This just continues WWE's theme of someone either old or unliked stealing someone else's opportunity.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Wyatt winning EC. Orton vs Wyatt @ WM.
UT vs Roman
Goldberg vs Lesnar

That leaves Cena facing???

Wyatt wins EC was my bet as well, to set up Orton vs Wyatt.
Then again, after tonight, not sure I can believe Vince does that.

I think we end up with a misbegotten trio match with Taker/Goldberg/Lesnar or worse yet, a 4-way that adds Reigns. Which has Bootista potential off the charts.

Cena can be recycled back through AJ again, or maybe we get Joe in there somehow.

Also, gotta bring back Balor -- health permitting -- somehow too.

[CrescentMoonie]

I've still got that sick feeling that the rumors of sticking AJ with Shane for WM is going to happen.

They're going to need to reboot like they did with Bryan or they're going to have a WM crowd that goes beyond any level of angry we've seen yet. They'll be lucky if all they get is the bored Orton/Sheamus crowd that entertained itself.

Somebody needs to find a way to force Vince out now.

[CrescentMoonie]

As others have pointed out, how does Reigns at #30 make sense if he wins the earlier match?

[RainMaker]

Kind of a boring Rumble. Some older part-timers who won't be around after Wrestlemania were the stars of the show. No real surprises either.

Still don't understand their obsession with Reigns.

[RainMaker]

Also did Rollins seriously not even appear at the Rumble?

[CrescentMoonie]

No, he did not.

[murrayyyyy]

Couple of quick thoughts.

1) I don't want to complain about Orton in the Main Event because this should be the first time the main event doesn't involve a part time since Miz-Cena.

2) Am I the only one who thinks Goldberg F'ed up and lost his grip on the rope. He had that look like I'm gonna get yelled after being eliminated and Taker started looking left and right for someone to make a call on what to do.

3) I hate everyone declaring for the rumble. I'd rather know 0 of the entrants than 23 of them. This way there is more speculation than counting in my head.

4) Hopefully Vince is giving us Joe on Tuesday and not tonight.

5) Bailey screwed up a couple of spots last night and I'm still not impressed with her. Cruiserweights are the new bathroom break.

6) There is no way KO is in the co-main event @Mania so who does he drop the belt to? Goldberg, Undertaker or Brock.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Mota

Anyways, back to me not watching WWE, I'll be back for Wrestlemania, and that's pretty much it. NJPW and ROH don't let me down like this. It's too bad, because usually the Royal Rumble matches are pretty good.

NJPW is just as bad as WWE. Who has been the main event in the past 5 Wrestle Kingdoms? Nakamura, Tanahashi, Okada, Omega.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

NJPW is just as bad as WWE. Who has been the main event in the past 5 Wrestle Kingdoms? Nakamura, Tanahashi, Okada, Omega.

Point to a single instance there of the fans crapping all over the product because they're tired of someone at the top of the card. Also, why 5 years? WWE has had mostly the same guys on top for the last 10-20 years. NJPW has a fresh, new product that elevates new guys regularly. Omega was the first ever foreign winner of the G1 Climax, the first since Brock Lesnar in 2006 to ME a January 4 event, and the match with Okada was the first time they've ever worked a singles match against each other. NJPW is seeing record attendance and viewership. There's no comparison.

[Suicane75]

Not gettin the hate for the Rumble. I thought the Rumble itself was infinitely better than it has been in at least a few years and the undercard was fantastic. They completely set up the WM upper card, had a bunch of fun spots and did a really good job of elevating everyone they wanted to elevate.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

NJPW is just as bad as WWE. Who has been the main event in the past 5 Wrestle Kingdoms? Nakamura, Tanahashi, Okada, Omega.

Yeah, but the point of the last 3 WK main events was Okada trying to overcome Tanahashi. It was a story, nothing like Cena/Orton, where it was just the top guys wrestling over and over cause there was nobody else.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Not gettin the hate for the Rumble. I thought the Rumble itself was infinitely better than it has been in at least a few years and the undercard was fantastic. They completely set up the WM upper card, had a bunch of fun spots and did a really good job of elevating everyone they wanted to elevate.

The problem is who they wanted to elevate.

[Suicane75]

Yeah but...I mean, I dunno what else you would expect. You know Strauman & Reigns are getting pushed. Cena isn't keeping the belt, he's basically a 2 week transition to get the belt on someone else and set up for the future when he beats Flairs record.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

The problem is who they wanted to elevate.

I don't get to +1 this poster a lot so ...

+1

(and at this point it might actually make more sense to push the limited Strauman than Reigns, the hate isn't going to go away no matter how hard Vince pushes)

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Yeah but...I mean, I dunno what else you would expect. You know Strauman & Reigns are getting pushed. Cena isn't keeping the belt, he's basically a 2 week transition to get the belt on someone else and set up for the future when he beats Flairs record.

I want them to not tell fans to bend over and take it while they push the WWE equivalent of Bad Luck Fale as the toughest guy in the company.

I want them to reward Styles for leading Smackdown to better ratings than Raw instead of the same old Super Cena crap.

I want them to actually pay attention to the fanbase.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Yeah, but the point of the last 3 WK main events was Okada trying to overcome Tanahashi. It was a story, nothing like Cena/Orton, where it was just the top guys wrestling over and over cause there was nobody else.

They tried with Reigns. Fan base shit on it and bought merch from part timers. They tried with the Miz 5 years ago, people shit on it.

The fans cry they want something new but shit on every attempt made to give us someone new. The loudest pops were for the oldest people last night. For the most part, the WWE fan base is the problem. They want new guys to have a chance but refuse to watch RAW. The vets are on Smackdown and it has the better ratings.

IMO 3 years of NJPW is equal to 8 months of WWE just based on content. It doesn't make it wrong but it makes it a hell of a lot easier to stretch out a storyline.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

They tried with Reigns. Fan base shit on it and bought merch from part timers. They tried with the Miz 5 years ago, people shit on it.

At the time they "tried it", neither was ready to be top card material.

I might buy an argument that Miz could be ready now but 5 years ago?
Nope.

[CrescentMoonie]

The vets are on Smackdown? Styles and Ambrose were the top of the card as the brand split happened with Cena being phased out. They went with the least established women for that division. They moved Wyatt there to give him more of a spotlight. They went almost exclusively young and new teams for the tag division. They're pushing Corbin to the top now.

That worked and then they crapped all over it last night by resetting to Orton and Cena.

[RainMaker]

I guess one problem I have is I'm just not that into the old guys anymore. Goldberg was cool back in the day. It's nice to see him do a match now, maybe a segment on Raw. But to have him destroy the current roster seems kind of self-defeating. Same for Undertaker who just looks ridiculously old these days.

The strongest guys in the company are all like 50 years old.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

The vets are on Smackdown? Styles and Ambrose were the top of the card as the brand split happened with Cena being phased out. They went with the least established women for that division. They moved Wyatt there to give him more of a spotlight. They went almost exclusively young and new teams for the tag division. They're pushing Corbin to the top now.

That worked and then they crapped all over it last night by resetting to Orton and Cena.

After the draft, that was the complaint. Look at Smackdown's first 4 versus RAW's 8.

Ambrose, AJ, Cena, Orton vs Rollins, Charlotte, Balor, Reigns, Brock, New Day, Zayn, Banks. Five of the next 10 picks were Ziggler, Del Rio, Kane and the Usos(forgot Miz). Almost exclusively 8 year WWE vets in half the picks.

So out of the 4-8 split we got a 36 year old with two 39 year olds on Smackdown versus a 39 year old part timer in brock and the next oldest is Kofi as part of a 3 in one pick? RAW for the most part went young with their stars and got caught when Balor got injured quickly.

[CrescentMoonie]

Smackdown's first ratings win over Raw was headlined by Styles vs Ziggler vs Corbin. The other matches were Bliss over Lynch and American Alpha winning the tag titles in a 4 way match.

Smackdown started slow because, 7 months ago, they went with vets to ease in the new guys. The transition is complete at the top of the card with some of the vets reinventing themselves in new roles that make sense for them at this time. Miz has especially taken a big step forward now that he's got an edge to him.

They killed all of that progress last night with Orton and Cena.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

They killed all of that progress last night with Orton and Cena.

Nah, Cena is good for business. Every time he's in the ring he puts on a show. I almost wish they would "Brock" him with the belt to let others develop. I know you don't like Styles-Cena as some how it's played out in your mind but it's probably the best combo. Unlike Reigns-Owens (or even Okada-Omega) they kept it in the ring the whole time and didn't need a prop like tables or chairs or even a shark cage (wtf, you should have had this during Shark Week WWE).

As for Orton, if the end is Orton-Wyatt @ Mania you have a 8-9 month story line finishing up at Mania but people complain that the WWE doesn't have any story lines. We bitch because there isn't enough story lines and then people bitch because it's not the one they want in the end.

[molson]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

The fans cry they want something new but shit on every attempt made to give us someone new

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

We bitch because there isn't enough story lines and then people bitch because it's not the one they want in the end.

That's the story of this thread for 11 years now, and the story of most internet commentary on the WWE for even longer.

I was hoping for Samoa Joe at #30 too, but, it's not like people stop complaining when they build a show around AJ Styles and let him put on great main event matches for months. Also I recognize that the odds the WWE is going to match my booking preference exactly is like 0%, so, I just either watch or don't watch depending on how connected I am to the product at the time. I don't expect or need them to book the show the same way I would.

The script is always the same - WWE sucks, even when they're on varying and contradicting sides of the spectrum, everything in Japan or the indies is great, even when the booking is very WWE-like. I think the company is very in tune with this and has managed to trick people into thinking the 205, Cruiserweight stuff, NXT, and even Smackdown Live since the re-branding are something separate from the WWE, so, they're given more of a benefit of a doubt and are viewed with a little less of an automatic critical eye.

[CrescentMoonie]

Orton-Wyatt has never made sense and they've never bothered trying to make it make sense. If you're going to tell a story, at least attempt to do a good job of it. It's an extended version of the crappy Xavier Woods story line with Wyatt.

Cena-Styles was literally just kicking out of big spots for most of the match. I hate the devaluing of finishers and that match was terrible on that front. Cena doesn't really move the needle anymore. He just did the HHH thing of inserting himself back into the mix as things were on an upswing without him. Cena should be making other people instead of still cutting their legs out from under them 10 years after his schtick got old.

[Maple Leafs]

I realize we're all supposed to shifting towards "Cena is actually good" territory these days, but is anyone else getting tired of every one of his matches just being ten minutes of setup, then ten+ more minutes of one guy hitting a finisher, the other guy kicking out, we all makes shocked faces, and then they trade spots and do it all over again?

I realize that's pretty much WWE style at this point, but Cena seems to take it to an extreme. The Styles match was still fun because at least they were pulling out some new stuff instead of just the same old AA reversals, but I'm kind of surprised to see people talking about it like it was some sort of psychological classic.

[CrescentMoonie]

Like I said, it wasn't a great match it was a kickout fest.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Like I said, it wasn't a great match it was a kickout fest.

Then what do you call the final 10 mins of Okada-Omega? Omega kicked out of the Rainmaker multiple times. How many people kick out of the Rainmaker in the first place? How many times was the Omega's one winged angel teased just like Cena's AA in that match.

Those two matches were the same thing in-ring wise minus AJ-Cena keeping it in the ring the entire time. They were both great and I'm not trying to diminish the O-O match but to say that Cena-AJ wasn't great because of kickouts is denying what made the Omega-Okada match great.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Then what do you call the final 10 mins of Okada-Omega? Omega kicked out of the Rainmaker multiple times. How many people kick out of the Rainmaker in the first place? How many times was the Omega's one winged angel teased just like Cena's AA in that match.

Those two matches were the same thing in-ring wise minus AJ-Cena keeping it in the ring the entire time. They were both great and I'm not trying to diminish the O-O match but to say that Cena-AJ wasn't great because of kickouts is denying what made the Omega-Okada match great.

Strong style matches don't have finishers the way the US style does.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I realize we're all supposed to shifting towards "Cena is actually good" territory these days, but is anyone else getting tired of every one of his matches just being ten minutes of setup, then ten+ more minutes of one guy hitting a finisher, the other guy kicking out, we all makes shocked faces, and then they trade spots and do it all over again?

Just so I'm clear here ... your complaint is that there are too many near falls?

[molson]

The big guys got off-camera help to get to the ring down the long ramp last night.

Victor on Twitter: "Mobbin https://t.co/6anvnRmcza"

[molson]

This apparently is the plan for Mania right now, according to Meltzer and other sources, subject to change, obviously. (Spoilers for next month's PPV)

Spoiler

-Goldberg wins the title at Fast Lane and defends against Lesnar at Mania
-Wyatt wins other title at Elimination Chamber and defends against Orton at mania
-Undertaker v. Reigns, but, I wonder if they make that a 3-way or something, I'm not sure 'Taker can get through a whole big mach anymore
-Styles v. Shane McMahon. No idea what the storyline would be for that but it's been in the cards for a long time. I don't think I believe it but the rumor is very strong.
-Owens v. Jericho
-HHH v. Rollins
-The plan was for Cena to face Undertaker for a while, but that was scrapped a month or two ago, now it's not clear what Cena would do at Mania assuming all of the above - speculation is still Samoa Joe, with Joe costing Cena the title sometime between now and then. But, Braun Strowman also should be doing something high profile at Mania, the way he's been booked.
-Shaq v. Big Show

[CrescentMoonie]

That sounds like an easy pass for me. Styles getting stuck with that after carrying Smackdown is just atrocious. Most of the rest of it is played out beyond belief. The first bout on that list is the only one with any real intrigue for me.

[jbergey22]

It is funny how people can get butt hurt by a completely scripted product.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

It is funny how people can get butt hurt by a completely scripted product.

This doesn't happen with movies, TV shows, books?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

This doesn't happen with movies, TV shows, books?

Not to the level of some wrestling fans. Very vocal about a scripted product. I fall victim as well but I dont get upset(lose sleep) about any of the outcomes. Just second guess some of the decisions.

Ive never understood the Cena hate. The kids love him, draws money, and a huge company guy. Why wouldnt they want him consistently at the top of the card? AJ Styles came out of the match looking great and is still carrying the same momentum going forward. While being in a match with Shane may seem like a poor choice we dont even know what the story will be. Plus AJ will go over on Shane and will probably be a very good match.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Not to the level of some wrestling fans. Very vocal about a scripted product. I fall victim as well but I dont get upset(lose sleep) about any of the outcomes. Just second guess some of the decisions.

I think you might not just see it with the other mediums then. Trust me, there are plenty of "fans" of shows who practically hate-watch them. I've personally been there with Lost and Walking Dead. You appluad the good moments, and become incredibly frustrated with the bad ones because you always feel that you can see the squandered potential.

I think a lot of us just generally expected scripted entertainment to make some degree of sense or for the shocks to really be shocking.

Orton winning the Royal Rumble was more like... "Oh... ok, i guess." It just doesn't seem to further any narrative and there was probably 8 other guys were there would have been some real logic to them winning and something obvious to gain from it from a story-telling perspective.

And i do think WWE keeps leaning so heavily on the old guard that it's cutting the newer generation off at the knees. If you constantly defer to the legends, you're never going to develop any new ones.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Just so I'm clear here ... your complaint is that there are too many near falls?

Are they really near falls if you know we have to get through ten of them before there's any chance of a real finish?

[Toddzilla]

Wow, that crowd in Laredo was DEAD.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Wow, that crowd in Laredo was DEAD.

They mimicked the product.

[molson]

Rollins re-injured his knee getting beat up by Samoa Joe. He's going to be evaluated this week but he left the arena on crutches and seems pessimistic on his twitter.

So maybe that's your annual "throw out the planned Mania card" injury.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by molson

Rollins re-injured his knee getting beat up by Samoa Joe. He's going to be evaluated this week but he left the arena on crutches and seems pessimistic on his twitter.

So maybe that's your annual "throw out the planned Mania card" injury.

The skeptic in me says it was injured before Joe put on the Coquina Clutch but you do hear Seth yell ouch when it happens. The only reason I'm skeptical is he hasn't been on the live tour for the past month and he wasn't in the rumble.

[CrescentMoonie]

Have Bryan bring him to Smackdown and have the Miz be his next feud when he's healthy.

[dubb93]

Joe posting to twitter in character makes me think it is either a work or was a pre-existing injury and this is the write-off.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

The skeptic in me says it was injured before Joe put on the Coquina Clutch but you do hear Seth yell ouch when it happens. The only reason I'm skeptical is he hasn't been on the live tour for the past month and he wasn't in the rumble.

He put on a pretty big match with Zayn on Raw the week before the Rumble so the injury couldn't have been that bad. I guess on the video you can hear Joe ask Seth "if he's okay" and Seth responds "i hope so".

Hopefully it's just a sprain.