It's Gone! 2004-2006 NHL Offseason and Lockout Thread

[Tekneek]

When all this talk started, I was firmly on the side of the players, but I've been driven to the owners side of things because the players have not put forward any convincing arguments or attempts to reach a resolution. Time is running out.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

No, we just seemed to get off on the wrong foot.

I'll remember not to disagree in the future.....

Originally Posted by tekneek

It may be difficult to believe. It is also difficult to believe that Trevor Linden, despite being a great and seemingly loyal player, is not coloring things a different way than an impartial participant would (I'm sure that Bill Daly blurs the truth as well, but the question about a salary cap seems rather black & white). The problem stands...the NHLPA has made one proposal (was it 15 months ago? I read a reference to it being that long ago), while the NHL has made 6. The NHLPA refuses to budge from their first offer and has not, according to published reports, responded to any of the 6 proposals from the league.

I want to blame both parties, but it *seems* clear that one side has already given up the idea of negotiating. You don't negotiate by making one offer and sitting on it.

Again though. The NHLPA has made it clear they won't discuss a cap, so why continue to offer them one? All of those 6 proposals are a cap of one form or another anyway, they're just not called a cap specifically.

The first one admittedly was a hard cap. The other 5.

1. A performance-based salary system, in which a player's individual compensation would be based, in part, on negotiated objective criteria and, in part, on individual and team performance.

While not a salary cap, it's certainly not market based. I suppose you'd get rid of the Claude Lapointe type contracts, but why is it the players job to police GM stupidity?

2. A payroll range system in which teams could spend within a negotiated range of payrolls.

A salary ceiling and cap. How is this not a salary cap when there is a defined upper range?

3. A system premised on the centralized negotiation of player contracts, where the league would negotiate individual player contracts, either with players and their agents or with the union directly.

The league negotiating all contracts? Again, why should others have to police GM stupidity. I guess it's a fancy way to spell collusion.

4. A player partnership payroll plan (P-4), which would involve individual player compensation being individually negotiated on the basis of "units" allocated for regular-season payrolls, supplemented by lucrative bonuses for team playoff performance.

"units" so if each team is given x amount of units to be divvied up at the end of they year, again, it seems to me as though there is an upper limit being set (the # of units x the value of a unit)

5. A salary slotting system, which would contemplate each team being assigned a series of "salary slots" at various levels, each of which would be allocated among each team's players pursuant to individual player-team negotiation.

Again, a plan with a salary ceiling. Each team gets 5 slots at w, 5 slots at x, 5 slots at y, and 5 slots at z. Does this not in effect put a cap on spending?

Yes, if those are what were offered the players, Daly can truthfully answer no to the question of whether all proposals involved a hard cap. I still think he's lying though. Call them units, slots, negotiated payroll ranges or whatever. They all involve an upper limit on spending per team do they not?



I guess my question to you Tekneek is this. If you offer someone something you know they won't accept, are you really negotiating in good faith or playing the PR game with the fans?

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

When all this talk started, I was firmly on the side of the players, but I've been driven to the owners side of things because the players have not put forward any convincing arguments or attempts to reach a resolution. Time is running out.

Why do they need to fix the owners problems though? I honestly don't see anything wrong with the current CBA. What's so bad about it? The players gave the owners a rookie salary cap years back. How long did it take Boston to fuck that up for everyone?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by SoxWin

Why do they need to fix the owners problems though? I honestly don't see anything wrong with the current CBA. What's so bad about it? The players gave the owners a rookie salary cap years back. How long did it take Boston to fuck that up for everyone?

I am all for every team deciding not to make bigger offers. I'd rather the 'market' correct itself, but apparently that would be illegal. The union wants all the benefits of a 'free market' without the downsides. If both sides would agree to shelve the idea of a CBA completely and let the 'market' decide everything, I would go right along with them, even if it meant the folding of my favorite team (Edmonton).

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by SoxWin

I guess my question to you Tekneek is this. If you offer someone something you know they won't accept, are you really negotiating in good faith or playing the PR game with the fans?

If I only made one offer, I wouldn't call it an attempt at good faith negotiations. If I made 6 to their one, I would say I was working harder at it than they were.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

If I only made one offer, I wouldn't call it an attempt at good faith negotiations. If I made 6 to their one, I would say I was working harder at it than they were.

I suppose that's my point. I don't see how any of those offers are in good faith knowing how the PA feels about a cap.

Am I the only one who sees them all as involving a cap?

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I am all for every team deciding not to make bigger offers. I'd rather the 'market' correct itself, but apparently that would be illegal. The union wants all the benefits of a 'free market' without the downsides. If both sides would agree to shelve the idea of a CBA completely and let the 'market' decide everything, I would go right along with them, even if it meant the folding of my favorite team (Edmonton).

Hasn't the market started to correct itself though? Bertuzzi got what? 7mil a season. My guess is a few years ago, that would have been 10 easy. Salaries are clearly on the downswing, much as they have been in baseball for the last 2 to 3 years.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by SoxWin

I suppose that's my point. I don't see how any of those offers are in good faith knowing how the PA feels about a cap.

Am I the only one who sees them all as involving a cap?

Surely the NHLPA could come up with at least a couple more ideas, right? Now that they have 6 proposals representing the league's position, they could come up with ONE more proposal? They've sat on their very first one.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by SoxWin

Hasn't the market started to correct itself though? Bertuzzi got what? 7mil a season. My guess is a few years ago, that would have been 10 easy. Salaries are clearly on the downswing, much as they have been in baseball for the last 2 to 3 years.

By the very concept of collective bargaining, you are purposely intending to avoid the free market.

I'd rather the league determine which franchises can go on as things stand and which cannot. Then go to the NHLPA and tell them that they will continue with the same CBA, but x number of teams will fold meaning that x number of players will have to find real jobs. Then let the players either show up or go on strike.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Surely the NHLPA could come up with at least a couple more ideas, right? Now that they have 6 proposals representing the league's position, they could come up with ONE more proposal? They've sat on their very first one.

Because the owners aren't bargaining in good faith by giving them 6 different options for a salary cap. We might as well agree to disagree here. The owners fucked this up, they need to fix it.

[Karim]

Originally Posted by SoxWin

I honestly don't see anything wrong with the current CBA. What's so bad about it? The players gave the owners a rookie salary cap years back. How long did it take Boston to fuck that up for everyone?

Things wrong with the CBA from a small-market perspective:

- Rookie Bonuses: Boston didn't screw up; the NHL screwed up in not recognizing bonuses wouldn't count under a rookie cap. Having to potentially pay up to $4 million for a rookie is cost prohibitive but it was just a matter of time before a crafty agent like Mike Barnett exploited the opening.

- Salary Arbitration: An example just happened with Kiprusoff getting a 269% salary increase. The only recourse is to walk-away from the decision and grant the player unrestricted free agency. Clearly, many teams can't afford to let good players go and reluctantly agree to the arbitrator's decision. Meanwhile, where is management's option to reduce a player's salary when the player performs poorly and doesn't meet mutli-million dollar expectations?

- Hold-Outs: A player who doesn't have arbitration rights has the option to hold out and demand either a bigger contract or a trade. Despite the fact that there is restricted free agency, the team has little choice but give in to demands. Derek Morris and Jarome Iginla took this tact with the Flames and the team gave them what they wanted. Mike Comrie pushed the issue with the Oilers and got his trade despite just having received $3 million by reaching rookie bonuses. The current CBA doesn't provide a solution to this scenario.

- Restricted Free Agency: Although a player's rights can be retained by making a qualifying offer, the qualifying offer is at the same salary level (or at salary +10% for those under the league average salary). Chris Pronger had to be qualified at $9.5 million or St. Louis would have lost his rights. Coming off an injury plagued season, why should the team have to qualify him at such a price tag? Why should the Kings have to qualify Allison at $8.5 million? And the 10% qualifying offers for average players are not frequently signed. This year is an exception though and the minimal market correction we've seen is only due to the threat of a salary cap under a new CBA.

- Unrestricted Free Agency: When the richest teams in the league sign players to multi-million dollar contracts, it has an inflationary effect on every team in the league. The problem with, for example, the Rangers signing Holik to a $9 million/year or Boston signing Lapointe to $5 million/year is that is doesn't penalize them - it penalizes the entire league. Suddenly, defensive centers and grinding wingers want comparable salaries. A cap or similar mechanism would hurt the Rangers and Bruins for making stupid signings without penalizing small market teams.

[Karim]

dola,

On another note, Hal Gill got a broken foot in tonight's game. The US now needs to find yet another defensive replacement.

Keith Carney declined to participate which is disappointing. Derian Hatcher pulled out for "personal reasons". Maybe Lilles from Colorado is the next option?

The salary of Team Canada is over $100 million.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by SoxWin

I'll remember not to disagree in the future.....

I gotta say, this is the first time I can remember this thread getting hostile and if we count up the NHL threads, that's nearly 5K posts and 35K views. And this is a thread with Wings fans and Avs fans, Wings fans and Blues fans, Wings fans and Hawks fans... hm... those Wings fans have a lot of people who don't like them (H_B!) but it's always been friendly for as long as I can remember.

But my point is that there's a lot of disagreement and it's not that you disagree but the fact that you started out your first post in this discussion with "Wrong answer" directed at a particular poster which just showed a lack of respect. Disagreeing is great, but let's keep it civil.

SI

[Cards4ever]

Originally Posted by Karim

dola,

On another note, Hal Gill got a broken foot in tonight's game. The US now needs to find yet another defensive replacement.

Keith Carney declined to participate which is disappointing. Derian Hatcher pulled out for "personal reasons". Maybe Lilles from Colorado is the next option?

The salary of Team Canada is over $100 million.

I heard that USA was thinking of inviting Berard when Martin got the call, so, he is probably on the radar.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by SoxWin

The owners fucked this up, they need to fix it.

You don't think that is what they are trying to do?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

...you started out your first post in this discussion with "Wrong answer" directed at a particular poster which just showed a lack of respect...

That's what I was referring to.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I gotta say, this is the first time I can remember this thread getting hostile and if we count up the NHL threads, that's nearly 5K posts and 35K views. And this is a thread with Wings fans and Avs fans, Wings fans and Blues fans, Wings fans and Hawks fans... hm... those Wings fans have a lot of people who don't like them (H_B!) but it's always been friendly for as long as I can remember.

But my point is that there's a lot of disagreement and it's not that you disagree but the fact that you started out your first post in this discussion with "Wrong answer" directed at a particular poster which just showed a lack of respect. Disagreeing is great, but let's keep it civil.

SI

I'll try to remember to include smilies next time.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

You don't think that is what they are trying to do?

No, not really. They're trying to force a cap on the players, one they know won't be accepted. Bettman promised the owners a cap and he's willing to blow the game up to acheive one. Won't matter imo, they'll blink long before the players.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Karim

Things wrong with the CBA from a small-market perspective:

- Rookie Bonuses: Boston didn't screw up; the NHL screwed up in not recognizing bonuses wouldn't count under a rookie cap. Having to potentially pay up to $4 million for a rookie is cost prohibitive but it was just a matter of time before a crafty agent like Mike Barnett exploited the opening.

- Salary Arbitration: An example just happened with Kiprusoff getting a 269% salary increase. The only recourse is to walk-away from the decision and grant the player unrestricted free agency. Clearly, many teams can't afford to let good players go and reluctantly agree to the arbitrator's decision. Meanwhile, where is management's option to reduce a player's salary when the player performs poorly and doesn't meet mutli-million dollar expectations?

- Hold-Outs: A player who doesn't have arbitration rights has the option to hold out and demand either a bigger contract or a trade. Despite the fact that there is restricted free agency, the team has little choice but give in to demands. Derek Morris and Jarome Iginla took this tact with the Flames and the team gave them what they wanted. Mike Comrie pushed the issue with the Oilers and got his trade despite just having received $3 million by reaching rookie bonuses. The current CBA doesn't provide a solution to this scenario.

- Restricted Free Agency: Although a player's rights can be retained by making a qualifying offer, the qualifying offer is at the same salary level (or at salary +10% for those under the league average salary). Chris Pronger had to be qualified at $9.5 million or St. Louis would have lost his rights. Coming off an injury plagued season, why should the team have to qualify him at such a price tag? Why should the Kings have to qualify Allison at $8.5 million? And the 10% qualifying offers for average players are not frequently signed. This year is an exception though and the minimal market correction we've seen is only due to the threat of a salary cap under a new CBA.

- Unrestricted Free Agency: When the richest teams in the league sign players to multi-million dollar contracts, it has an inflationary effect on every team in the league. The problem with, for example, the Rangers signing Holik to a $9 million/year or Boston signing Lapointe to $5 million/year is that is doesn't penalize them - it penalizes the entire league. Suddenly, defensive centers and grinding wingers want comparable salaries. A cap or similar mechanism would hurt the Rangers and Bruins for making stupid signings without penalizing small market teams.

The owners collectivelly bargained all these things. Yes, Boston did fuck up the system for everyone. Had they walked away from Thornton he would have gone back in the draft and that's a big loss for them no doubt. What if he went back in the draft, tried for the same contract again and didn't get it from that team either, how long do you think it would have been til he signed with someone for the rookie max?

The players got salary arb, and the owners got later UFA age, it's a tradeoff and one that hasn't worked especially well, but again, they put the system in place.

Yes, the qualifying offer system sucks. But who gave Pronger/Allison those monster deals to start with? I don't believe they came through arb, but I could be totally wrong.

I agree that contracts like those given to Holik/Lapointe affect everyone else, but the fact is, you don't need a 5mil checking winger or a 9mil checking center as everyone short of NY and Boston have figured out.

Honestly, if you can't figure out how to run a team on a budget of 40 to 45 mil when you have control over players from age 18 to 32, I really don't know what to say. Hire good hockey people to run the team and you should be ok. New Jersey in the last 4 seasons has had payrolls of 39, 43, 56, and 48 million and is always a top team. Draft well, have success, and the money will come to increase payroll. The only guys who benefit from a cap will be the owners lining their pockets with the extra reveune. I'm not saying that's a bad thing as it is their investment. But I don't believe they have to have a hard cap to survive which is what they're essentially saying.

Sure, that player may become to rich for you through arbitration, so you move him for someone else. I'm not sure that lowering UFA to 27 or whatever they've discussed is going to be any more beneficial to small market teams, but that's just me.

[Karim]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I gotta say, this is the first time I can remember this thread getting hostile and if we count up the NHL threads, that's nearly 5K posts and 35K views. And this is a thread with Wings fans and Avs fans, Wings fans and Blues fans, Wings fans and Hawks fans... hm... those Wings fans have a lot of people who don't like them (H_B!) but it's always been friendly for as long as I can remember.

Don't forget the Flames and Oilers fans. It's amazing we haven't come to blows!

[SoxWin]

According to the local paper, the Canucks have had talks with Kariya's agent.

[klayman]

Originally Posted by Karim

Don't forget the Flames and Oilers fans. It's amazing we haven't come to blows!

That's only because we outnumber you 3 to 1. Unlike Flames fans, we fight fair.

[klayman]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

And this is a thread with Wings fans and Avs fans, Wings fans and Blues fans, Wings fans and Hawks fans... hm... those Wings fans have a lot of people who don't like them (H_B!) but it's always been friendly for as long as I can remember.

Add Leafs fans vs Everybody else

[Karim]

Here's another good article from Kevin Dupont of the Boston Globe. I suppose I could be skeptical about all the numbers in the article but any way you slice it, it doesn't look good for hockey.
http://www.boston.com/sports/hockey/...n_labor_talks/

[Maple Leafs]

From Karim's article:

"If there is a work stoppage, lockout or strike -- whatever you want to call it," mused Brian Burke, the former Vancouver Canucks general manager who is now a CBC broadcast analyst, "the owners will lose $240 million instead of the $300 million they'd lose [over the course of a season]. The players will lose $1.2 billion if they don't play."

Interesting quote.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by SoxWin

According to the local paper, the Canucks have had talks with Kariya's agent.

think he regrets turning down Anaheim's money yet?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Wow. Gretzky continues to spend in the desert....

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=96395


Coyotes load up with Nedved, Gauthier


TSN.ca Staff



8/26/2004

The Phoenix Coyotes announced Thursday that the team has signed free agent centre Petr Nedved to a three-year contract. As per club policy, terms of the contract were not disclosed.



They also announced that they have traded centre Daymond Langkow to the Calgary Flames in exchange for defenseman Denis Gauthier and left wing Oleg Saprykin.



"In Petr Nedved, we have acquired a 6-foot-3 center who handles the puck very well and will be a valuable addition to our power play," said Barnett. "Petr consistently averages 50-60 points per season. Signing him as a free agent has enabled us to trade for Denis Gauthier, the physical defenseman which we were seeking, and Oleg Saprykin, a young, talented forward who brings additional speed to our lineup."



"We have indeed given up a proven and consistent NHL player in Daymond Langkow," added Barnett. "In return, we have enhanced our roster with the addition of three large and talented NHL players."





Last season, the 6-foot-3, 196 pound Nedved played 81 games with the New York Rangers and Edmonton Oilers, recording 19-27-46 and 44 penalty minutes (PIM). Nedved scored 7 power play goals, 3 game-winning goals and averaged 18:43 minutes of ice time per game. He played 65 games with the Rangers, collecting 14-17-31 and 42 PIM and 16 games with the Oilers, registering 5-10-15 and 4 PIM. Nedved has scored 20-or-more goals in seven of his last eight seasons (19 goals last season).



The 32-year-old native of Liberec, Czech Republic has scored 76 career power play goals, 13 shorthanded goals and 38 game-winning goals. He has scored 20-or-more goals eight times and 30-or-more goals four times. Nedved has also recorded 30-or-more assists six times in his career and reached the 70-point plateau four times. His best season came during the 1995-96 campaign when he registered career highs in goals (45), assists (54) and points (99).



In 2002-03, Nedved played 78 games with the Rangers, recording 27-31-58 and 64 PIM. Nedved ranked 2nd on the team in goals and 3rd in points. He scored 8 power play goals, 3 shorthanded goals and 4 game-winning goals and averaged 20:20 minutes of ice time per game.



Nedved, who defected to Canada from the Czech Republic on January 2, 1989, represented Canada at the 1994 Winter Olympics in Albertville, France. He helped lead Team Canada to a silver medal by recording 5-1-6 in 8 games. He tied for the team lead in goals and ranked 2nd in scoring. He also collected 19-12-31 in 17 pre-Olympic games.



In 13 NHL seasons with Vancouver, St. Louis, the New York Rangers, Pittsburgh and Edmonton, Nedved has played in 889 games, collecting 301-379-680 and 610 PIM. He has also appeared in 65 career playoff games, recording 17-23-40 and 56 PIM.



Nedved was originally drafted by the Vancouver Canucks (1st choice, 2nd overall) in the 1990 Entry Draft. He is the third highest Czech born player ever drafted behind Roman Hamrlik (1992) and Patrik Stefan (1999).



Last season, the 6-foot-3, 224 pound Gauthier played 80 games for the Calgary Flames, setting career highs in assists (15), points (16) and penalty minutes (113). Gauthier ranked 3rd on the Flames in penalty minutes and averaged 18:43 minutes of ice time per game. He finished the season with a plus-4 rating. In the Stanley Cup playoffs, Gauthier played 6 games for the Flames, collecting one assist and 4 penalty minutes. He averaged 18:33 minutes of ice time per game.



In 2003-03, the 27-year-old native of Montreal, Quebec played 72 games for the Flames, registering 1-11-12 and 99 PIM. He averaged 19:52 minutes of ice time per game and finished the season tied for 1st on the team with a plus-5 rating.



In 7 NHL seasons with Calgary, Gauthier has appeared in 384 games, recording 13-45-58 and 515 penalty minutes with a plus-15 rating. Gauthier was drafted by Calgary (1st round, 20th overall) in the 1995 Entry Draft.



Last season, the 6-foot-1, 190 pound Saprykin played in 69 games with the Flames, setting career highs in games played, goals (12), assists (17) and points (29). Saprykin scored 4 power play goals, had a plus-1 rating and averaged 13:47 minutes of ice time per game. In the playoffs, he helped lead Calgary to the Stanley Cup Finals, appearing in 23 games and collecting 3-3-6 and 14 PIM. He scored one power play goal, one game-winning goal and one game-tying goal for the Flames.



In 2002-03, the 23-year-old native of Moscow, Russia played 52 games with Calgary, registering 8-15-23 and 46 PIM. Saprykin finished the season tied for 1st on the team with a plus-5 rating and averaged 11:53 minutes of ice time per game. He had five multiple point games.



In 5 seasons with the Flames, Saprykin has played in 187 NHL games, recording 29-47-76 and 132 PIM. Saprykin was drafted by Calgary (1st round, 11th overall) in the 1999 Entry Draft.

Last season, the 5-foot 11, 185 pound Langkow played in 81 games for the Coyotes, registering 21-31-52 and 40 PIM. Langkow finished T-2nd on the team in points, plus/minus and game-winning goals and 3rd in goals and assists. He also led the team in faceoffs taken (1472) and had 12 multiple-point games.

In 9 NHL seasons with Tampa Bay, Philadelphia and Phoenix, Langkow has played in 625 games, registering 136-218-354 and 374 PIM. The Coyotes acquired Langkow from the Philadelphia Flyers in exchange for a 2nd round draft choice in the 2002 Entry Draft and a 1st round draft choice in the 2003 Entry Draft on July 2, 2001. He was originally drafted by the Tampa Bay Lightning (1st choice, 5th overall) in the 1995 Entry Draft.

--------------

Ouch. That hurts. Nedved fit in so well with Oil in his short stint there. It seemed like he would stay and be a talent for a reasonable amount of cash. A talent that Edmonton seriously needs. Gretzky's been really agressive down there in the desert. They have signed a ton of free agents so far. Far and away the most of any team. It will be interesting to see if he can turn things around.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

think he regrets turning down Anaheim's money yet?

No more then he regrets taking Colorado's cash ...

[Cards4ever]

The Stanley Cup visits my town! Love the story of the rookie dinner too!

http://www.nhl.com/hockeyu/history/c...34_082604.html

[Karim]

Last fall's NHLPA luxury tax proposal...
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...acodalogin=yes

$40+ million - 10 cents on the dollar
$50+ million - 20 cents on the dollar
$60+ million - 30 cents on the dollar

The whopping proceeds would be redistributed among smaller market teams. Looks like Goodenow has been drinking too much of Donald Fehr's kool aid.

[Cards4ever]

Wow, that is nowhere near reality.

[Tekneek]

That NHLPA proposal is the one that was supposed to be such a great deal? Obviously there is room for them to meet somewhere in the middle, if only they were willing. They are playing with fire. I know a lot of fans are willing and ready to walk away if the season gets messed up at all. This will hurt both parties tremendously.

[Maple Leafs]

Based on a payroll that now stands at $62.1 million with restricted free agent Alexei Ponikarovsky still to be signed, the Leafs would pay fines totalling over $3.6 million.

Gosh, can't understand why the owners didn't jump all over that.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Gosh, can't understand why the owners didn't jump all over that.

That's about as toothless as the Yankee tax for MLB.

SI

[Simms]

Interesting announcement today (no link yet...just heard about this on the radio)...

The Original Stars Hockey League (OSHL) will drop the puck on their inaugural season this coming Friday. What I know of it is this:

- It's basically a barnstorming league -- 6 teams, all games will be played at various locations in Ontario: Barrie, Sarnia, Ottawa, Kitchener, Brampton, Toronto (Ricoh Col.), etc.
- Games are 4 on 4, all the time.
- No-touch icing
- No red line
- No minor penalties -- they'll use penalty shots instead
- There is a shootout at the end of every period, I'm assuming with any goals scored being added to the overall score.

Some of the players who have already signed up: Aki Berg, Nathon Perrott, and Chad Kilger got most of the mentiones (this is Toronto radio, after all), but they also listed Jason Spezza and Doug Weight among those committed.

Also, the league makes no bones about the fact that it will close operations the *second* the NHL reopens for business, whether said time is on the eve of their championship game or otherwise.

If nothing else, it sounds interesting.

[Draft Dodger]

Toronto or not, Chad Kilger getting more press than Doug Weight or Jason Spezza is just not right.

[SoxWin]

Dan Cloutier signed up for that league a while back iirc. I also seem to recall them possibly playing in GM place, though maybe that was another rogue league.

[Tekneek]

I read an article the other day that said Jason Spezza would be willing to report to Binghamton and play in the AHL if there is an NHL lockout. It doesn't seem like he could do both...unless this OSHL is going to be over before the AHL season gets underway.

[Simms]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

Toronto or not, Chad Kilger getting more press than Doug Weight or Jason Spezza is just not right.

In fairness, I heard 3 sports updates on my commute home (they do them every 20 minutes), and Kilger was only mentioned in the last one. Berg, Weight, and Spezza were the only ones mentioned in all three.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I read an article the other day that said Jason Spezza would be willing to report to Binghamton and play in the AHL if there is an NHL lockout. It doesn't seem like he could do both...unless this OSHL is going to be over before the AHL season gets underway.

Apparently Hasek is going to be in the AHL too. Apparently, anyone who was on the injured list at the end of last season or is right now (I'm not sure which) is eligible to play in the A for conditioning purposes. I also heard guys on the IL still get paid their NHL salaries until they're medically cleared to play. Not sure about that though.

[sachmo71]

So it's official now? We're locked out?

[Cards4ever]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

So it's official now? We're locked out?

Yes you are, are you working out with MoDo during the lockout, going to Europe, or playing in the Original Stars league?!

[sachmo71]

I think I'm going to play NHL 2005 on the XBox. I rule.

[Karim]

Bettman sounded angry (I heard it on the radio). Goodenow sounds like he's willing to wait this one out.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Karim

Bettman sounded agree (I heard it on the radio). Goodenow sounds like he's willing to wait this one out.

As well he should

The numbers released yesterday show a $50 improvement in NHL losses from $275 mil to $224. Trevor Linden was on local radio talking about it. According to him, 6 teams made up $170 mil of the 224. 2 teams he said had horrible leases (My guess is Pittsburgh and .....) 2 teams were just spending far more then their market allowed (he mentioned a guy who wanted a better team then his brother in law. My guess St Louis trying to best Colorado. No idea who the other team would be) and 2 teams that were in non traditional markets who couldn't get good attendance (Carolina ??? and....)

So if the other 24 teams were losing an average of $2.25 million each, why does there need to be a hard cap again? If they just took the players offer of a 5% rollback in salaries, most of those teams would be in the black.

[Simms]

Interesting...

Report: Devils' Madden on the fence

TSN.ca Staff/CP



9/16/2004

The NHL lockout is not even a day old and one player is already saying he would be willing to accept a salary cap if it saved the 2004-05 season. Devils' forward John Madden told the (Newark) Star-Ledger that he wants the NHL Players' Association to do whatever it takes to get a deal done.


"It all comes down to what's fair," Madden told the Star-Ledger. "The only problem I'm having with things is believing whose numbers are right and whose numbers are wrong. Those are the big issues. And if it needs to have a cap, give it a cap, you know?"


The president of the NHL Players' Association isn't concerned. Trevor Linden said Thursday that Madden is entitled to his opinion; however, Linden said he remains confident the majority of the NHLPA is opposed to any form of salary cap.


Linden, speaking on Vancouver's MOJO sports radio, didn't criticize Madden for his comments.

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"Obviously we're going to have some guys with some different opinions," said the veteran Vancouver Canucks forward.


"We have a very strong group that feels very strongly about what we have put forward, the concessions we made and our willingness to negotiate. That's the one thing we are saying. We are willing to negotiate."


Wednesday, NHLPA executive director Bob Goodenow put the blame on the league for failing to come up with a new collective bargaining agreement.


"Unfortunately, the league has rejected all opportunities for compromise, while stubbornly insisting that (commissioner) Gary Bettman has the single solution to every problem -- a salary cap," Goodenow said.


Madden said he certainly wouldn't submit to all of the owners' demands to save the season.


"I'm not in favor of giving in," Madden said. "There's a problem that needs to be solved. It's not my final decision to say whether a cap's going to be involved, but I'm just saying we need to fix the problem. There needs to be a season. We have to find a common ground. And that's where I'm willing to go -- the middle of the road -- with everything."


Madden said that a cap would only be acceptable if it was higher that the reported $31 million offered by the owners.


"Be realistic," he said. "How can you have a $31 million cap? I'm not going to go out on a limb and say what I think the cap should be, but be reasonable."


Other Devils, who were taking part in a golf tournament, took a harder stance. Jamie Langenbrunner said the old CBA worked well enough. He claimed financial losses reported by some teams were the result of nothing more than mismanagement. He approved of the union's proposal, but when asked by the Star-Ledger if he believed there was a figure at which a salary cap could be acceptable to the players, Langenbrunner indicated there might room for negotiation on that point.


"I think that depends on what's included in that cap," he said. "Are they taking away our guaranteed contracts, like they're talking about? That's something I don't think any player's willing to do. There are different ways to do a cap. If you're going to cap the top teams at $30 million and you've got the Pittsburghs, or whatever, spending $10 million to $12 million, how does that improve the league?"


Langenbrunner said he would be in favor of a minimum payroll, too.


Before you start to think that the players were already getting soft, it's worth noting that some players are taking a hard-line stance on the first day of the lockout.


"I just think its one person," Colorado Avalanche centre Joe Sakic said. "He (Bettman) wants a cap and is willing to cancel the year to try to break the players and have us come back next year. I think hes going to be very surprised."


"I think the owners are making a mistake by believing him. Players are trying to find a system that helps the owners and works. He (Bettman) wants everything, and I think hes going to be surprised and the owners are going to be surprised."


Red Wings forward Darren McCarty told the Detroit News, "They (The owners) don't realize that they are dealing with hockey players. Were not other professional people in other professional sports. Were pretty straightforward, and we beat the tar out of each other for a living.


"So we're not going to get pushed around off the ice, either. Weve always stuck to our guns and done what we believe is fair. We dont want it all our way. We want something that we both can agree on. As long as one side feels as if theyre getting cheated, then it's not going to happen."


Goodenow re-iterated the notion that the players won't give in.


You know hockey players. You know what theyre about," he said. "You know how they feel about their profession, their game, their principles. I can only tell you that they feel very strongly about these negotiations. To a man, when I meet with players, the sentiment is very strong. They understand the issues and they are fully prepared to stand by those principles.


"The players have told me they are not prepared to entertain a salary cap in any way, shape, manner or form."

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Simms

"The players have told me they are not prepared to entertain a salary cap in any way, shape, manner or form."

until the players that don't make millions a year start really feeling the pain in future months. of course the superstars don't want a cap, it really only affects them and not the lesser players.

[Karim]

A good nuts and bolts article from Bob McKenzie, demonstrating the inflationary pressure of big contracts and salary arbitration.
http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie.asp

[Tekneek]

John Madden has recanted...as expected. The NHLPA got to him...

http://www.canada.com/sports/hockey/...2-d626a12f08e4

[Draft Dodger]

Peter Forsberg, as expected, will play the entire season in Sweden.
this relieves me of a great deal of interest in seeing this thing fixed quickly...