WW LXVII -- The Return of Divination Nation! (GAME OVER STUDENTS WIN!!!) - Page 13

Lorena · 02-19-2008, 09:46 AM

Pretty compelling "evidence" Lathum, but I'm sure it's so you can save your own skin.

Think about it, Lathum was against Grey's plan, was a proponent for No Lynch, and now half the people that scanned him came out as a wolf. C'mon.

I'm not gonna try to defend myself, everytime I do no one listens, but vote for whomever you want, I don't care.

Vote Lathum

saldana · 02-19-2008, 09:47 AM

dola, i totally agree with your analysis of her regarding the defense of the slip of the tounge

Lorena · 02-19-2008, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

so you think if it is too good to be true it probably is? At least for this game.

It could be, who knows.

Lorena · 02-19-2008, 09:48 AM

(_X_)

MikeVic · 02-19-2008, 09:51 AM

I scanned clap as planned. He came up as wolf.

I don't know if we should take night 0 as hard evidence, but I did have Grey as a villager too.

Lathum · 02-19-2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodgerchick

Quote:

Think about it, Lathum was against Grey's plan,

which like I said, didn't work. IIRC you were one of the people who deviated from it.

Quote:

was a proponent for No Lynch,

Which according to the rules was the right move. And oh, If I was a wolf wouldn't I want a day one lynch?

Quote:

and now half the people that scanned him came out as a wolf. C'mon.

Well considering the nature of the game those numbers probably add up.

I think the thing we should be looking at are the people who scanned me despite claiming they were going with the plan.

Lathum · 02-19-2008, 09:58 AM

my replies are in italics above, it came out jacked up

Lorena · 02-19-2008, 09:58 AM

Alright, I submitted my PM and I'm scanning Lathum, should I survive the lynch.

Lorena · 02-19-2008, 10:00 AM

dola,

when i come up villager, you guys know who to gun for.

Lathum · 02-19-2008, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodgerchick

Alright, I submitted my PM and I'm scanning Lathum, should I survive the lynch.

While I have no problem with you scanning me why would you submit this so early?

We haven't even gotten everyone's results from last night and no one should be submitting their scans until we find out the results of the lynch.

Lathum · 02-19-2008, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodgerchick

dola,

when i come up villager, you guys know who to gun for.

You don't even have a vote on you

MikeVic · 02-19-2008, 10:04 AM

So Lathum is thinking nfg and DC are wolves right?

Barkeep49 · 02-19-2008, 10:07 AM

Regarding the 50/50 split on Lathum: Yes that's what we'd expect on the aggregate to have things be evenly split. BUT on the individual level this isn't necessarily going to be true. Figuring out who tends to be more accurate is going to be important in the late game so we know who to give weight to in listening to scans, and how much weight to give to them. Not all scans are equal. Our job needs to figure out whose scans are better than others, otherwise we're going to have to just play a traditional game of WW. And in a traditional game of WW, I like the the logic Lathum has presented today against DC. But I'm not resigned yet to that style of play. I think we can do better.

Passacaglia · 02-19-2008, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

You don't even have a vote on you

That's funny, considering it was what, a couple hours ago when you said the same thing, and you didn't have a vote on you, either!

Barkeep49 · 02-19-2008, 10:09 AM

To summarize my somewhat meandering point above:
We have two options:
1. Ignore the scan info, play a traditional game of WW based on intuition, post analysis, and voting analysis
2. Try to make sense of the scans. Find out the people who are above average in accuracy (good because we can vote with them), below average in accuracy (good because we do the opposite), and in the middle in accuracy (information we have to ignore).

I'm trying to make 2 a reality, but think there is nothing wrong with playing via style 1.

Lathum · 02-19-2008, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

That's funny, considering it was what, a couple hours ago when you said the same thing, and you didn't have a vote on you, either!

except I had 3 people claiming I was a wolf

MikeVic · 02-19-2008, 10:11 AM

I think we have to use the scan info more as the game progresses, as long as it's fairly obvious who an accurate scanner is.

Lathum · 02-19-2008, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

To summarize my somewhat meandering point above:
We have two options:
1. Ignore the scan info, play a traditional game of WW based on intuition, post analysis, and voting analysis
2. Try to make sense of the scans. Find out the people who are above average in accuracy (good because we can vote with them), below average in accuracy (good because we do the opposite), and in the middle in accuracy (information we have to ignore).

I'm trying to make 2 a reality, but think there is nothing wrong with playing via style 1.

Obviously my opinion is going to be somewhat skewed but I think playing the first way is the smart move until we have a couple of days worth of scans to go by.

claphamsa · 02-19-2008, 10:12 AM

I think we need to play 1 untill we find more info out...

Barkeep49 · 02-19-2008, 10:19 AM

Clap and lathum: You both suggest that we start with style 1 and move into style 2. How do you propose we do this?

Lathum · 02-19-2008, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Clap and lathum: You both suggest that we start with style 1 and move into style 2. How do you propose we do this?

Honestly.

I think everyone should scan the same person they scanned tonight.

as for option 1 I laid out my argument why I am suspiscous of DC, the fact I scanned her as a wolf is an added bonus.

MikeVic · 02-19-2008, 10:26 AM

We can scan the same person as last night, I'm ok with that. But I think we have to lynch someone tonight?

claphamsa · 02-19-2008, 10:26 AM

I woudl play as normal... and once we had enough scans to say with a reasonable success who was a good seer and who was a crappy seer then we can use their scans.

For example, if we can figure out who the class clown is.. then we know 100% that whatever they say is wrong... so if someone turns up as a student then they are a wolf...

Lathum · 02-19-2008, 10:32 AM

OK< I pulled up some stuff from yesterday

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

Checking in. As I see no reason to not reveal my night 0 scan it was Clap and he came up good.

If I was a wolf there is no way I reveal this information this early. At the time we had no idea everyone was going to come back scanned as a villager. If I was a wolf I would be concerned someone would have had a succesful scan of me. I would have sat on my scan info to use as a possible defense until later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

I would like to hear from everyone before I decide but if jheinze won't be here at all today that would obviously make that diffucult.

As a wolf I would have jumped on the lets lynch heinze for being inactive. It's the easiest day 1 vote excuse there is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

Path-2 questions

Is the tie-breaker public?
Can we vote No Lynch?

I would never suggest no lynch as a wolf, ever. If someone else suggests it I may go along, but as a wolf I would never be the first to breach the topic. Especially since at the time it would have been easy to gt JHeinze lynched.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

It is my understanding that night 0 we were assigned random targets and now we can select our own candidates.

I don't really agree with this. The more someone comes up good in a scan the more likely they are to be a villager. Even if a wolf claimed to have scanned someone and they came up good then that still makes them a villager so why would we kill them.

I think the best course of action is a no lynch tonight and hold off until tomorrow when we have 2 nights of info.

again, I advocate no lynch and use our info from night 1 scans. If I am a wolf I know I am gonna be scanned, why would I suggest this if that was the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

As Cronin pointed out I am as big a supporter as there can be about having lynches everyday, I just think this game is the rare exception where it is more prudent to wait an extra day.

Anyone who has played a number of games with me knows I always want a lynch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

I am fine with being scanned tonight btw.

IIRC I am the first person to come out and say go ahead and scan me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think it would almost be better for everyone to scan a random person tonight, that way the wolves would have no knowledge of what was coming or any time to prepare/ coordinate.

Why would I suggest anything to hurt the wolves if I was one of them?

Barkeep49 · 02-19-2008, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think everyone should scan the same person they scanned tonight.

I think this might be a good idea of how to proceed. Not sure if it's better than just lynching you today, but it's enough to make me think it over and so I'm going to take my vote off of you, for now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by claphamsa

For example, if we can figure out who the class clown is.. then we know 100% that whatever they say is wrong... so if someone turns up as a student then they are a wolf...

I don't think it's going to be that easy. Let's assume, for a second, that besides for the teacher's pet and the class clown everyone is perfectly 50/50. There is a 1/16 chance that a player will get a wrong scan each of the first 4 nights. I don't disagree with you in the end, just saying it's going to be hard to figure out who is accurate or not, which only lends credence to the idea of proceeding with style 1 for now.

As mentioned above:
Unvote Lathum

Lathum · 02-19-2008, 10:38 AM

lets not forget the wolves can easily mess with us if we scan the same people tonight so it is far from perfect.

Lathum · 02-19-2008, 10:38 AM

I am off to school now. Be back later, hopefully everyone has checked on by then

Dr. Sak · 02-19-2008, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeVic

So Lathum is thinking nfg and DC are wolves right?

I am thinking the same thing. Last night I threw my vote on NTN just because I thought there could be a potential wolf in a group where more than 1 scans showed up villager. nfg has been on my radar since the beginning, now DC coming to his aid really has me suspicious of her.

Also add to it that why would a wolf want a No Lynch vote...why would he even suggest it? It doesn't make any sense. It's scary how after the jawing that Lathum and I went through the last game I played in, I am starting to see his ways now.

Since I am torn between two...I am going with my initial gut feeling..

VOTE NFG

jeheinz72 · 02-19-2008, 10:39 AM

I'm pickin' up what Lathum is puttin' down, moreso on voting DC than his innocence really (a lot of those statements can be used for exactly this purpose).

DC just seems to be playing very strangely. First she says wait, then she votes Lathum, then the whole "I won't defend myself and there I've submitted my PM"-thing. Just seems like she was trying to peek through the door and then nail it shut and never have to look back. Strange.

I'd be leaning towards her, then "the field".

I like what MikeVic is saying (his scan of GFR was correct, and now he's scanned a wolf). Something to look at for later.

path12 · 02-19-2008, 10:39 AM

I am around today, but will not be checking in as often because our net traffic is being monitored for a few days and I don't want to risk losing access because of getting on here 15 times a day. Feel free to PM or leave questions in thread and I'll check back in a few hours.

oliegirl · 02-19-2008, 10:43 AM

Sorry I'm late...I slept in this morning, and have training until 4:30 today, so although I'll be online, I'll be coming in and out as we get breaks/I get bored/etc...

I scanned CR last night and he came back a student.

As for BK's "options" on how to play the game, I'm playing mostly as a regular game, but am definitely paying attention to the scanning patterns/results. I just think that we need more than 2 nights of scans (esp. as one of those were "involuntary" scans) before I start basing decisions more on scans than on anything else.

Lorena · 02-19-2008, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodgerchick

Alright, I submitted my PM and I'm scanning Lathum, should I survive the lynch.

Well that was pretty fuckin' stupid. If I'm alive, then Lathum is dead... DUH! I'm scanning bsak, why? Who the hell knows.

mauchow · 02-19-2008, 10:48 AM

I'm here for a little bit today. Gotta work later but hopefully will still have access to the forums. My submission for a scan was Dodger Chick but I obviously don't get a scan since I didn't vote yesterday.

So who am I going to be scanning tonight according to that list again?

mauchow · 02-19-2008, 10:50 AM

I'm scanning Clap according to that list from earlier... if he was a bodyguard, why not protect yourself, especially on night 1. Ah, well.

MikeVic · 02-19-2008, 10:50 AM

My gut yesterday was nfg, but I don't remember why now. My plans right now are to lynch either nfg or DC. But that can change. Not sure who to scan either, but I'd like someone else to scan clap too. Was I the only one?

Passacaglia · 02-19-2008, 10:50 AM

I think we can learn a little bit from the scans we have, and we might as well parse this now, just in case everyone scans the same people again, and it gets lost in the shuffle: Neither CR nor Mr. Wednesday are the Teacher's Pet, nor are they the fool. In fact, they're more likely than any of us to have a 50% ratio, which means they're worthless as seers. I'm not going to vote for Mr. Wednesday, since he scanned me.

VOTE CHIEF RUM

Passacaglia · 02-19-2008, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeVic

My gut yesterday was nfg, but I don't remember why now. My plans right now are to lynch either nfg or DC. But that can change. Not sure who to scan either, but I'd like someone else to scan clap too. Was I the only one?

If you're interested, you're one of my nominees for the person who should suggest how we vote today.

Passacaglia · 02-19-2008, 10:53 AM

Damnit I meant scan!!

MikeVic · 02-19-2008, 11:05 AM

I don't know how we should scan yet. I liked Lathum's plan, but that allows wolves to mess with us too.

Barkeep49 · 02-19-2008, 11:10 AM

Pass how did you deduce that CR and Mr. W and neither teacher's pet or class clown?

claphamsa · 02-19-2008, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Pass how did you deduce that CR and Mr. W and neither teacher's pet or class clown?

yeah im fooled on this as well

claphamsa · 02-19-2008, 11:15 AM

my thought would be since they each came up with different reslts for thee same person... but since we all came up sutdent night 0 I just ingnroe it... cuz there is NO way it could have been random.

Passacaglia · 02-19-2008, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Pass how did you deduce that CR and Mr. W and neither teacher's pet or class clown?

They scanned the same person twice, once getting villager, once getting wolf. They can't be all right or all wrong.

claphamsa · 02-19-2008, 11:22 AM

I think all the night 0 scans were worht less. the chance that all 20 of us would come back as vilegars is like 0.0000000000003 (esitmate) so I just write off night 0. now if it happens between 1 and 2.....

Passacaglia · 02-19-2008, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claphamsa

my thought would be since they each came up with different reslts for thee same person... but since we all came up sutdent night 0 I just ingnroe it... cuz there is NO way it could have been random.

I'm not saying it was random, but I can't imagine that whatever game mechanic was working N0 would allow the teacher's pet to scan a wolf, yet have him come up as villager. That's insane.

Lorena · 02-19-2008, 11:24 AM

You're right Lathum, i don't have a vote on me, I just get really frustrated when I add something to the discussion and it's used against me. I really fuckin' hate it, especially when accusations are being made against me. I might as well keep my mouth shut and stay UTR, these people seem to make it pretty far.

I can't remember who asked, but I did say we should hold off on voting until we have more information and my vote on Lathum was instinctual as I was frustrated as shit.

claphamsa · 02-19-2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I'm not saying it was random, but I can't imagine that whatever game mechanic was working N0 would allow the teacher's pet to scan a wolf, yet have him come up as villager. That's insane.

then how do you explain all 20 of us beign students? I think its just worth ignorning.....

Passacaglia · 02-19-2008, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claphamsa

then how do you explain all 20 of us beign students? I think its just worth ignorning.....

The non-random mechanism is likely affecting who we scan, not the outcome of the scan.

Passacaglia · 02-19-2008, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claphamsa

then how do you explain all 20 of us beign students? I think its just worth ignorning.....

The non-random mechanism is likely affecting who we scan, not the outcome of the scan.

jeheinz72 · 02-19-2008, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodgerchick

You're right Lathum, i don't have a vote on me, I just get really frustrated when I add something to the discussion and it's used against me. I really fuckin' hate it, especially when accusations are being made against me. I might as well keep my mouth shut and stay UTR, these people seem to make it pretty far.

I can't remember who asked, but I did say we should hold off on voting until we have more information and my vote on Lathum was instinctual as I was frustrated as shit.

I get ya, but that's WW yo.
Think of it as being permanently Mirandized but without the attorney.

02-19-2008, 10:12 AM	#619
claphamsa Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: non white trash MD	I think we need to play 1 untill we find more info out... __________________ Dominating Warewolf for 0 games! GIT R DUN!!!

02-19-2008, 10:26 AM	#623
claphamsa Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: non white trash MD	I woudl play as normal... and once we had enough scans to say with a reasonable success who was a good seer and who was a crappy seer then we can use their scans. For example, if we can figure out who the class clown is.. then we know 100% that whatever they say is wrong... so if someone turns up as a student then they are a wolf... __________________ Dominating Warewolf for 0 games! GIT R DUN!!!

02-19-2008, 10:39 AM	#630
path12 Coordinator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Seattle, WA	I am around today, but will not be checking in as often because our net traffic is being monitored for a few days and I don't want to risk losing access because of getting on here 15 times a day. Feel free to PM or leave questions in thread and I'll check back in a few hours. __________________ We have always been at war with Eastasia. Last edited by path12 : 02-19-2008 at 10:39 AM.

02-19-2008, 11:15 AM	#642
claphamsa Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: non white trash MD	my thought would be since they each came up with different reslts for thee same person... but since we all came up sutdent night 0 I just ingnroe it... cuz there is NO way it could have been random. __________________ Dominating Warewolf for 0 games! GIT R DUN!!!

02-19-2008, 11:22 AM	#644
claphamsa Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: non white trash MD	I think all the night 0 scans were worht less. the chance that all 20 of us would come back as vilegars is like 0.0000000000003 (esitmate) so I just write off night 0. now if it happens between 1 and 2..... __________________ Dominating Warewolf for 0 games! GIT R DUN!!!

02-19-2008, 09:46 AM	#601
Lorena Unregistered Join Date: May 2004	Pretty compelling "evidence" Lathum, but I'm sure it's so you can save your own skin. Think about it, Lathum was against Grey's plan, was a proponent for No Lynch, and now half the people that scanned him came out as a wolf. C'mon. I'm not gonna try to defend myself, everytime I do no one listens, but vote for whomever you want, I don't care. Vote Lathum

02-19-2008, 09:47 AM	#602
saldana Pro Starter Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bethlehem, Pa	dola, i totally agree with your analysis of her regarding the defense of the slip of the tounge

02-19-2008, 09:48 AM	#604
Lorena Unregistered Join Date: May 2004	(_X_)

02-19-2008, 09:51 AM	#605
MikeVic Head Coach Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hometown of Canada	I scanned clap as planned. He came up as wolf. I don't know if we should take night 0 as hard evidence, but I did have Grey as a villager too.

02-19-2008, 09:58 AM	#607
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	my replies are in italics above, it came out jacked up

02-19-2008, 09:58 AM	#608
Lorena Unregistered Join Date: May 2004	Alright, I submitted my PM and I'm scanning Lathum, should I survive the lynch.

02-19-2008, 10:00 AM	#609
Lorena Unregistered Join Date: May 2004	dola, when i come up villager, you guys know who to gun for.

02-19-2008, 10:04 AM	#612
MikeVic Head Coach Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hometown of Canada	So Lathum is thinking nfg and DC are wolves right?

02-19-2008, 10:07 AM	#613
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	Regarding the 50/50 split on Lathum: Yes that's what we'd expect on the aggregate to have things be evenly split. BUT on the individual level this isn't necessarily going to be true. Figuring out who tends to be more accurate is going to be important in the late game so we know who to give weight to in listening to scans, and how much weight to give to them. Not all scans are equal. Our job needs to figure out whose scans are better than others, otherwise we're going to have to just play a traditional game of WW. And in a traditional game of WW, I like the the logic Lathum has presented today against DC. But I'm not resigned yet to that style of play. I think we can do better.

02-19-2008, 10:09 AM	#615
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	To summarize my somewhat meandering point above: We have two options: 1. Ignore the scan info, play a traditional game of WW based on intuition, post analysis, and voting analysis 2. Try to make sense of the scans. Find out the people who are above average in accuracy (good because we can vote with them), below average in accuracy (good because we do the opposite), and in the middle in accuracy (information we have to ignore). I'm trying to make 2 a reality, but think there is nothing wrong with playing via style 1.

02-19-2008, 10:11 AM	#617
MikeVic Head Coach Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hometown of Canada	I think we have to use the scan info more as the game progresses, as long as it's fairly obvious who an accurate scanner is.

02-19-2008, 10:19 AM	#620
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	Clap and lathum: You both suggest that we start with style 1 and move into style 2. How do you propose we do this?

02-19-2008, 10:26 AM	#622
MikeVic Head Coach Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hometown of Canada	We can scan the same person as last night, I'm ok with that. But I think we have to lynch someone tonight?

02-19-2008, 10:38 AM	#626
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	lets not forget the wolves can easily mess with us if we scan the same people tonight so it is far from perfect.

02-19-2008, 10:38 AM	#627
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	I am off to school now. Be back later, hopefully everyone has checked on by then

02-19-2008, 10:39 AM	#629
jeheinz72 Pro Rookie Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Fresno, CA	I'm pickin' up what Lathum is puttin' down, moreso on voting DC than his innocence really (a lot of those statements can be used for exactly this purpose). DC just seems to be playing very strangely. First she says wait, then she votes Lathum, then the whole "I won't defend myself and there I've submitted my PM"-thing. Just seems like she was trying to peek through the door and then nail it shut and never have to look back. Strange. I'd be leaning towards her, then "the field". I like what MikeVic is saying (his scan of GFR was correct, and now he's scanned a wolf). Something to look at for later.

02-19-2008, 10:48 AM	#633
mauchow Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Murfreesboro, TN	I'm here for a little bit today. Gotta work later but hopefully will still have access to the forums. My submission for a scan was Dodger Chick but I obviously don't get a scan since I didn't vote yesterday. So who am I going to be scanning tonight according to that list again?

02-19-2008, 10:50 AM	#634
mauchow Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Murfreesboro, TN	I'm scanning Clap according to that list from earlier... if he was a bodyguard, why not protect yourself, especially on night 1. Ah, well.

02-19-2008, 10:50 AM	#635
MikeVic Head Coach Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hometown of Canada	My gut yesterday was nfg, but I don't remember why now. My plans right now are to lynch either nfg or DC. But that can change. Not sure who to scan either, but I'd like someone else to scan clap too. Was I the only one?

02-19-2008, 10:50 AM	#636
Passacaglia Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Big Ten Country	I think we can learn a little bit from the scans we have, and we might as well parse this now, just in case everyone scans the same people again, and it gets lost in the shuffle: Neither CR nor Mr. Wednesday are the Teacher's Pet, nor are they the fool. In fact, they're more likely than any of us to have a 50% ratio, which means they're worthless as seers. I'm not going to vote for Mr. Wednesday, since he scanned me. VOTE CHIEF RUM

02-19-2008, 10:53 AM	#638
Passacaglia Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Big Ten Country	Damnit I meant scan!!

02-19-2008, 11:05 AM	#639
MikeVic Head Coach Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hometown of Canada	I don't know how we should scan yet. I liked Lathum's plan, but that allows wolves to mess with us too.

02-19-2008, 11:10 AM	#640
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	Pass how did you deduce that CR and Mr. W and neither teacher's pet or class clown?

02-19-2008, 11:24 AM	#646
Lorena Unregistered Join Date: May 2004	You're right Lathum, i don't have a vote on me, I just get really frustrated when I add something to the discussion and it's used against me. I really fuckin' hate it, especially when accusations are being made against me. I might as well keep my mouth shut and stay UTR, these people seem to make it pretty far. I can't remember who asked, but I did say we should hold off on voting until we have more information and my vote on Lathum was instinctual as I was frustrated as shit.

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