07-26-2006, 08:50 AM | #601 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
|
Quote:
I urge you to familiarize yourself with recent reports from Afghanistan. As Klingerware stated, it's essentially a pretty lawless country right now, and the Karzai government doesn't have a lot of sway outside of Kabul. The coalition itself also doesn't have a lot of power to project in the area and has been unable to provide security throughout the country, hence the local warlords taking the power back. On top of this, the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and other terrorists continue to operate with impunity from across the border of our supposed ally Pakistan. This (Pakistan) is a country with a military dictator who's routinely the object of assassination attempts and has no clear successor. On top of this, this is also a country with a working nuclear program and a recent admission that they've been working on a plant since 2000 to produce plutonium. On top of this, this is also a country whose head of its nuclear program, A.Q. Khan, is suspected (by the U.S.) of selling nuclear secrets to rogue states including North Korea. Pakistan, however, won't give him up to the U.S. for questioning. The area's a complete mess, and to think that we "solved" Afghanistan before (or even while) we went into Iraq is to greatly overlook the situation. |
|
07-26-2006, 10:38 AM | #602 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Regarding the thread title, this may be what is next:
Quote:
Glen, why isn't the United States attacking these Kurdish guerrilla groups in Iraq the way you say the Lebanese government should have been attacking Hezbollah? They should do it at all costs, right? |
|
07-26-2006, 11:00 AM | #603 |
Coordinator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Jacksonville, FL
|
why wouldnt turkey attack the guerillas, not the US....and yes I see this as a pandora's box sort of situation wherein other countries can say, "we're doing what Israel is doing." that is not a good thing.
__________________
Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL |
07-26-2006, 11:11 AM | #604 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
|
|
07-26-2006, 11:46 AM | #605 | |
Banned
Join Date: May 2003
|
Ah, Israel.
hxxp://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/26/mideast.main/index.html Quote:
Defending themselves, huh. |
|
07-26-2006, 12:01 PM | #606 |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
I find it hard to believe that Israel intentionally targetted the UN post, but Kofi seems pretty adament about it.
I still don't know what Israel's end game is. They seem to have backed themselves into a corner and the US is unwilling to play their usual role as peacemaker (surprise, surprise). Israel are in pretty much the same situation that we are in in Iraq: they can't back off, or it will be seen as a victory for Hezbollah. There are no troops willing to go in and occupy the area. They are faced with having to keep their military there indefinitely. They rushed in without a plan. The military that took control of the Sinai in 2 days in 1967 and surrounded an entire Egyptian army in 1973 has been fighting to take over Maroun al-Ras, a village about 500 meters inside Lebanon, for 5 days now. It's not a failure of the IDF, but a failure of strategy. |
07-26-2006, 12:04 PM | #607 | ||
Banned
Join Date: May 2003
|
Quote:
Yeah. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but it's so odd that they would repeatedly shell an area (or even strike an area) that they were so unsure of. Quote:
Yep. IMO, this will mean more long-term problems for Israel. |
||
07-26-2006, 12:21 PM | #608 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
|
Quote:
Uh oh... things could get real ugly, real fast if Erdogan feels threatened enough that he has to respond to Kurdish attacks in Turkey. The last thing needed is Turkey bombing/invading parts of Iraq.
__________________
"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams |
|
07-26-2006, 12:31 PM | #609 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
|
|
07-26-2006, 12:32 PM | #610 | ||
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Muskogee, OK USA
|
Lets get back on topic here:
__________________
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
07-26-2006, 12:35 PM | #611 |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New Mexico
|
That's it, I'm changing my name to Beirut.
|
07-26-2006, 01:29 PM | #612 | |||||
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Concord, MA/UMass
|
Quote:
Quote:
(FWIW - I'm curious why you say things like "the drug lords influence is growing" "Afghanistan is quickly headed towards narcocracy" and "we didn't give Karzai's gov't enough resources to consolidate his hold on the country"? When you know as well as I the war lords have always controlled their parts of the country. We got a fair amount to switch to our side, effectively by bribing them, but we never fought most of them.) Quote:
Quote:
And I'll repeat that I don't think we "solved" Afghanistan or that it isn't a complete mess, just that we achieved our security goals regarding al-Qaeda. If the Taliban want to try an offensive in Afghanistan, that's too bad, but our main goal was preventing attacks being planned globally. Addendum - Since y'all mentioned it, I did go look for recent news reports on Afghanistan and from what I see, it's basically in 4 of the 26 provinces - no surprise there - and aside from a PR victory or two - most significant being killing the local police in 2 provincial capitals, massing a couple hundred Taliban and then running when police and army reinforcements arrived - they are being destroyed whenever they pop up. Sorry, but they're gonna have to get up to late-90's FARC level before I accept your proposition that we are losing control over Afghanistan. Quote:
PS - Can we please stop using that picture? Titties are nice and all, but damn that's a hideous face if I've ever seen one. (OK, maybe Fergie from BEP still beats her out, but it's close.) |
|||||
07-26-2006, 01:48 PM | #613 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
Some places where the UN is helping things spiral out of control: Congo, Ivory Coast, and Burundi. But I would say that there are not enough UN peacekeepers to keep the entire globe peaceful. |
|
07-26-2006, 01:49 PM | #614 |
Coordinator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Jacksonville, FL
|
that girl is not good looking....talk about trying to divert attention from the face. Buttah
__________________
Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL |
07-26-2006, 05:11 PM | #615 | ||
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Jun 2003
|
Quote:
what makes you think they were "unsure" of the area? That oupost has been there for more than a decade, is very well known to the Israelis (the post was on high ground, within the area formerly occupied by Israel), and obviously was deliberately targeted (hit by a precision-guided missile after six hours of shelling). It's hard to see how anyone could deny that except with the romantic notion that "they wouldn't do that." Quote:
|
||
07-26-2006, 07:52 PM | #616 |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New Mexico
|
I think there's very little, if any doubt that the UN was intentionally targeted. I also think there is no doubt that Israel considers the UN forces in the area to be Hezbollah sympathizers.
|
07-27-2006, 09:35 PM | #617 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
|
On the military front, it looks as if Hezbollah is holding its own ...
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/743027.html I'm not sure I understand the Israeli cabinet's position not to expand the war (ex. my interpretation is no additional ground troops to push north). This would seem to indicate they think they can (1) inflict enough damage via air and (2) don't want to expose their troops to any more 'unnecessary' mano-a-mano. I like the idea of an international buffer force. If I was China/India, I would jump at the chance of putting troops there to increase and enhance visibility and 'soon-to-be-super-power' status. Last edited by Edward64 : 07-30-2006 at 07:12 AM. |
07-27-2006, 09:37 PM | #618 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
|
Quote:
Yetch. I would pass on this one. |
|
07-27-2006, 09:41 PM | #619 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
|
CNN just reported 4 countries volunteered troops for the buffer force if Rice can pull off a cease-fire. France, Norway, Turkey and (one more).
(I guess it pays to have a French Foreign Legion, I love their winged dagger). |
07-27-2006, 10:12 PM | #620 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Apr 2005
|
So what, France will head-butt any violators of the buffer zone?
|
07-28-2006, 12:50 AM | #621 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Fresno, CA
|
Quote:
Missed this. First take. You are making a bad analogy, but that is par for the course. They(the millitary) have attacked the Kurdish millitants in the past, and I suspect the Kurdish sepratist's recent activities have earned themselves some more attention. As far as why haven't we dealt with them in earnest to this point. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and the Kurds haven't been squeaking near as much as the various millitants/terrorists/criminals in Central Iraq. These types of things change that to the point that the US is going to have to put some effort into this issue. |
|
07-28-2006, 12:54 AM | #622 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Fresno, CA
|
Quote:
Dola, That only works on Italians. The French spine is otherwise far too delicate. Last edited by Glengoyne : 07-28-2006 at 12:54 AM. |
|
07-28-2006, 03:20 AM | #623 | ||
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Jun 2003
|
Quote:
Actually, the analogy is very apt and the obvious double standard is causing major problems for the Turkish government right now. You might want to rethink your response to MrBigglesworth's question. Quote:
|
||
07-28-2006, 03:39 AM | #624 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Jun 2003
|
winning hearts and minds.
Quote:
|
|
07-28-2006, 08:45 AM | #625 | |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
|
Quote:
Killing all the Jews and giving the land to Palestine wouldn't win the hearts and minds that you so desperately seek, so I find the decision to take the fight to Hezbollah favorable to the opposition's choice of bliss. |
|
07-28-2006, 08:58 AM | #626 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
|
Quote:
You say that as if those were the only two options. |
|
07-28-2006, 09:18 AM | #627 | |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Tennessee
|
Quote:
|
|
07-28-2006, 09:41 AM | #628 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
|
So, what Turkey is saying, and I agree with them whole-heartedly, that if the so-called coalition running Iraq does not exercise more control over the militants crossing the Turkish border and attacking them without provocation, they will be forced to strike themselves.
Perfectly reasonable. Another so-called coalition was expected to serve the same function in Lebanon. It failed. Could someone please remind me of exactly WTF it is we're trying to do in Iraq right now? We can't even get the group of Islamic militants who supposedly like us to leave people to live in peace. Meanwhile, it's hard to expect Israel to try and win hearts and minds in Lebanon when Lebanon is the staging ground for the Iran-led Hezbollah terrorist group which is bent on Israel's destruction at all costs. I ****ing hate the "winning hearts and minds" pablum. Who actually believes this? You'd be better off asking the interns at ESPN to win the hearts and minds of their sports analyst tormenters. At least there's a chance diplomacy can win within the walls of Bristol, Connecticut. In the world of Islamic fanaticism, there's just no room for rational thought. |
07-28-2006, 09:50 AM | #629 |
Coordinator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Jacksonville, FL
|
ahhhh, Bristol, CT. No other city in the country screams of serenity like the home of ESPN. Now that is bliss.
__________________
Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL |
07-28-2006, 09:54 AM | #630 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
|
Quote:
Well, at least you're keeping your mind open to other options.... |
|
07-28-2006, 03:00 PM | #631 | |
High School Varsity
Join Date: Nov 2003
|
Quote:
You, the Bush administration and the Israeli government are very much of the same mind on this. Hamas, Hezbollah, and other extremist groups, I assure you, care a great deal about hearts and minds. And that's why American and Israeli interventions in other countries end so disastrously. We're not even playing the right game. We still think it's about major combat operations. |
|
07-28-2006, 04:19 PM | #632 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
Quote:
"Hearts and minds" is a gigantic crock of shit when you're dealing with vermin, as you're giving far too much credit to the enemy having either. Grab them by the balls on the other hand ...
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
|
07-28-2006, 05:07 PM | #633 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The DMV
|
Quote:
Hezbollah would agree with you. That is another reason why the Israelis are in a difficult spot. While engaging Hezbollah appears to be a necessary choice for the Israelis in guaranteeing security in the northern half of Israel, Hezbollah can probably cause more actual damage to the Israelis and score more PR points in a protracted guerrilla war against the IDF than with random terrorist attacks. Ultimately, I see Syria and Iran as being strategic winners here. As the Israelis can do very little to punish Syria or Iran for their sponsorship of Hezbollah, the net result here is that they managed to draw Israel into a costly and likely long-term conflict, at very little cost to either Syria or Iran. Iran here also has to be gloating with regards to its influence in the middle east--the moderate Sunni governments in the region despise Iran for its attempts at regional hegemony especially via its use of radical islamic insurgents to foment destabilization in the region. Ever mindful of self-preservation, now many of the moderate states are backing away from condemning Hezbollah (now that they've been portrayed as freedom fighters) for fear of inciting islamist (read anti-government) currents in their own countries. As I said before, as crass as it may seem, it does seem like brilliant strategic thinking on the part of Hezbollah's sponsors. Even if the IDF manages to destroy Hezbollah, which is certainly not a given, it would still be worth it for the Syrians and Iranians, since they will manage to destabilize and perhaps weaken Israel a little bit, at little cost to themselves. Last edited by Klinglerware : 07-28-2006 at 05:08 PM. |
|
07-28-2006, 05:15 PM | #634 | |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Tennessee
|
Quote:
|
|
07-28-2006, 05:58 PM | #635 |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New Mexico
|
Maybe it's just me, but isn't this what happens over there? Somebody fucks with Israel, Israel punches them in the mouth hard, people get all fidgety shouting omg it's WW3, other people get all mad at Israel for whatever reason, lots of people die, and then some sort of tentative truce comes into play. This has been the pattern for how long now? It's almost not even newsworthy anymore.
|
07-28-2006, 09:39 PM | #636 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Fresno, CA
|
Quote:
No the analogy isn't apt. Lebanon = Sovereign Government not fighting any internal conflicts. Iraq= Not a Sovereign Government fighting essentially an ongoing conflict with a number of distinct factions. The Iraqi government and the United are struggling to bring law and order to Iraq. The Lebanon government essentially enjoys peace. The Lebanese government averts its gaze while elements of its population wage war with a neighbor. The Iraqi government nor the United States are turning a blind eye the the Kurdish separatists. The Turks have only now said "Do something about this group" Israel has been calling for the same for years. Lebanon is a government neglecting its responsibilities. Iraq is a government having difficulties living up to its responsibilities. The difference is vast. |
|
07-28-2006, 10:38 PM | #637 |
Coordinator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Jacksonville, FL
|
Hezbollah politicians back peace package
By SAM F. GHATTAS, Associated Press Writer 40 minutes ago BEIRUT, Lebanon - Hezbollah politicians, while expressing reservations, have joined their critics in the government in agreeing to a peace package that includes strengthening an international force in south Lebanon and disarming the guerrillas, the government said. ADVERTISEMENT The agreement — reached after a heated six-hour Cabinet meeting — was the first time that Hezbollah has signed onto a proposal for ending the crisis that includes the deploying of international forces. The package falls short of American and Israeli demands in that it calls for an immediate cease-fire before working out details of a force and includes other conditions. But European Union officials said Friday the proposals form a basis for an agreement, increasing the pressure on the United States to call for a cease-fire. President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair said Friday they too want an international force dispatched quickly to the Mideast but said any plan to end the fighting — to have a lasting effect — must address long-running regional disputes. "This is a moment of intense conflict in the Middle East," Bush said after his meeting with Blair in Washington. "Yet our aim is to turn it into a moment of opportunity and a chance for broader change in the region." By signing onto the peace proposals, Hezbollah gave Western-backed Prime Minister Fuad Saniora a boost in future negotiations. Going into Thursday night's Cabinet session, Hezbollah's two ministers expressed deep reservations about the force and its mandate, fearing it could turn against their guerrillas. "Will the international force be a deterrent one and used against who?" officials who attended the Cabinet meeting said in summing up Hezbollah cabinet ministers concerns. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the debate. But afterward, Information Minister Ghazi Aridi announced that the package had been agreed on by consensus in a rare show of unity by a divided administration. While all sides seemed to be looking for a way to stop the fighting, details of plans taking shape on all sides were still fuzzy. And it was not at all certain Hezbollah would really follow through on the Lebanese government plan that would effectively abolish the militants' military wing. It may have signed on to the deal convinced that Israel would reject it. But the agreement presents Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice with a package she might find hard to ignore when she returns to the region. The plan approved by the Cabinet was an outline that Saniora presented at an international conference in Rome on Wednesday. It starts out with an immediate cease-fire. Following that would come: • the release of Lebanese and Israeli prisoners; Israeli withdrawal behind the border; the return of Lebanese displaced by the fighting. • moves to resolve the status of Chebaa Farms, a small piece of land held by Israel and claimed by Lebanon. The proposal calls for the U.N. Security Council to commit to putting the area under U.N. control until a final demarcation of the border. • the provision by Israel of maps of minefields laid during its 18-year occupation of the south. • "the spreading of Lebanese government authority over the entire country," meaning the deployment of the Lebanese army in the south, with the strengthening and increasing of the small, lightly armed U.N. peacekeeping force currently there. The provisions do not spell out the order in which the steps must take place, but Saniora has said the government cannot spread its authority in the south unless the Chebaa farms issue is resolved. Israel's hold on Chebaa has provided Hezbollah with a rationale to maintain its arsenal and its "resistance" against Israel. U.N. experts have previously determined that the territory is part of Syria's Golan Heights, now held by Israel. But Syria has said the patch of land is Lebanon's. Also left undetermined is the contentious issue of the size and mandate of a peacekeeping force in the south. The current nearly 2,000-member force, deployed since 1978, is virtually ineffectual and its main task now is to patrol the Blue Line, monitor and report violations and deliver aid. Four U.N. border observers were killed in an Israeli airstrike this week. The Lebanese government has previously rejected international demands that it disarm Hezbollah and move the army into the south. Without Hezbollah consent, the move could tear the country apart due to the movement's deep support among Shiite Muslims. The rare united stand between Hezbollah and anti-Syrian politicians who dominate the government could give Lebanon a stronger say in any resolution of the conflict. A divided government may encourage unilateral U.N. Security Council action on the Lebanon crisis without consulting Beirut. Visiting EU envoys, led by Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja, whose country currently holds the EU presidency, met Friday with Saniora and parliament speaker Nabih Berri, the de facto negotiator for Hezbollah. Tuomioja, representing the EU Finnish presidency, said the troika appreciated the Lebanese government's plan which "we think forms a good basis for a regional agreement."
__________________
Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL |
07-28-2006, 10:56 PM | #638 |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
|
I was in Turkey preparing for the "northern front" back in 2003. Obviously, the thought was that it could help ease the stress on the massive convoy/assault that would come from Kuwait in the south.
Prior to the invasion, the Turks were in Iraq. You may remember when the Turks and the US assaulted the same PKK hot spot early in the war and a Turkish squad "surrendered" to US forces? (I say surrendered because they laid down their arms when our forces quickly/hurredly explained they were not here to fight Turks.) I remember it pretty well, because the Turks were ready to string that Turkish commander up by his nut sack for surrendering regardless of what the circumstance was. The Turks have watched 35,000 people die at the hands of the PKK since 1980(?). The Turkish army wanted to go in with/behind the US forces so they could clean up the PKK forces in a massive military campaign. But politics came along and ruined the Turkish armies plan. The people were pissed off at the USA for not obeying the UN and didn't want the US forces to go through Turkey. So the Turkish leaders let Parliament vote on whether to allow the US and Turkey to work together in northern Iraq. This was a very public vote. The Turkish generals were pleading with Parliament and to the TV and newspapers that this "wasn't about war and peace, it was about war and a bigger war." and to allow the US and subsequently the Turks go into northern Iraq. Despite the 90% dissaproval rating by the Turkish people towards war, the Islamic ruling party voted heavily in favor of allowing the US to go into Northern Iraq. But it wasn't enough to over-rule the minority parties and they failed to get 2/3 vote. The 2nd strongest party in Turkey (the pro-EU party) voted unanimously against the US plan. So the US Army forward deployed units in Turkey packed up their gear and headed for Kuwait. (Yay for peace.) The Turks voted to not go into Iraq. That is their right. But if they wish to go into Iraq now, it would have to be a priviledge, maybe Iraq will put it to a vote for them? In any event, Iraq is crawling with terrorists. It's not like anybody can wave a magic wand and they go away. You have to systematically hunt them down and destroy them. The PKK, while a huge threat regionally to Turkey, is not a direct threat to the US. We have Al Qaeda, Al Sadr (I'm assuming he's still fighting), and whatever is left of the Baathist resistance to take care of first. We all know that the US forces in Iraq have their hands full. Getting mad at them for not fighting the PKK as well is crazy. However, one thing the Turks don't have that the US Military and Iraq do have, is negotiating power and the US and Iraq have said they will be aggressive about that, something Lebanon can not say with regard to Hezbolla. The US is no friend of the PKK terror group, but while we can differentiate between a PKK terrorist and a Kurdish civilian, I'm not so sure the media handling of US aggression against PKK will be clear about that. Personally, I think the Turks should get involved with Iraq and we let them handle security in northern Iraq. But if we do, it's possible that the Turks could make the Israeli's look like media darlings. The Turks, with regard to PKK, probably don't quite understand "hearts and minds". |
07-30-2006, 12:01 AM | #639 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
|
|
07-30-2006, 12:03 AM | #640 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
|
|
07-30-2006, 12:58 AM | #641 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Jun 2003
|
Quote:
hey, we're just about to turn the corner in Iraq. |
|
07-30-2006, 03:24 AM | #642 | ||
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
You know who really knew how to grab someone by the balls, who didn't care about hearts and minds? The Soviets:
Quote:
Of course we all know how that turned out: Afghanistan was immediately pacified, worldwide terrorist organizations failed to sprout there, and it remains a paradise and moderating influence to the region to this day. Wikipedia has all the answers: Quote:
|
||
07-30-2006, 09:25 AM | #643 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
|
The IDF really screwed up with Qana and all the children casulties. I believe this will be a turning point that will force other Arab countries to start voicing their concerns.
Hezbollah is winning the public opinion war. Israel cabinet votes to not expand the war etc. I do not get the Israeli strategy. It no longer seems coherent, they are asking the US for an additional 10-14 days to finish this but I don't really know what they hope to accomplish? 1) 2 Israeli reservists are probably not going to be rescued 2) Hezbollah leadership is probably not going to be bombed (out of the Iranian embassy in Beirut, chicken sh*ts) 3) Without expanding a ground war and pushing further north, its not as if the Hezbollah troops will be wiped out by air 4) Without expanding a ground war and willing to hold southern Lebanon, its not as if northern Israel will be safe from rockets So it seems to me the strategy now is to inflict as much damage to Hezbollah (with the understanding it won't be wiped out), live with the collateral damage (and all the bad media) and hope there is an international force (with teeth) patrolling the border. I would suggest Israel (1) cut their losses and support an immediate international force or (2) expand this war, really fight Hezbollah (ground, not air) and be prepared to hold southern Lebanon. Last edited by Edward64 : 07-30-2006 at 09:27 AM. |
07-30-2006, 09:43 AM | #644 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
Quote:
You're giving the latter way too much credit. We've played public relations with the situation there far far too much for it to be anything remotely resembling an effective by-the-balls strategy. As for what Israel "should" do? So far I'd say this latest round has been handled pretty well ... at least absent me having access to any detailed intel on what opportunities may have been missed, after action reports, etc. that might adjust my assessment up or down. My biggest worry right now is that they will either stop a little too soon or make the mistake of giving anything of value away in any cease fire talks. But that's politics, not military. edit to add: A couple of quotes that come in handy right about now. 1) "There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."" and 2) "May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." Both attributed to the inimitable Gen. George Patton.
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis Last edited by JonInMiddleGA : 07-30-2006 at 09:53 AM. |
|
07-30-2006, 12:57 PM | #645 |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
|
"Hearts and Minds" cannot be won when the propaganda machine is stronger than the truth. For people to even suggest that the Middle Eastern propaganda machine before the Isreali counter-attack against Hezbollah and Hamas was ever fair-handed is a joke.
|
07-30-2006, 01:06 PM | #646 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
|
More fun -
Edit: That was too harsh. No one's likely to be thrilled by this. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html Quote:
Last edited by Crapshoot : 07-30-2006 at 01:11 PM. |
|
07-30-2006, 01:13 PM | #647 | |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
|
Quote:
I'm not sure that was called for. |
|
07-30-2006, 01:16 PM | #648 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
|
Quote:
Which is why I edited it - that was too harsh. Its just getting frustrating. I have Lebanese friends whose country is getting torn apart, and no one want's to do shit to stop it. |
|
07-30-2006, 01:35 PM | #649 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Jacksonville, FL
|
Quote:
I seriously ask, if you could give me some idea about how youre friends (im assuming not members of Hezbollah) feel about the kidnappings & Rockets. I will not listen to answers that are questions back (IOW "We kidnap because you kidnap, etc.") I just want to hear the morality judgments. I am aware that nothing is as vanilla as that but I simply hate that both sides dont answer questions with answers but answer questions with more questions or deflections. Anyways, if you could perhap type a bit from their POV regarding individual events and not the history per se that would be appreciated by me.
__________________
Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL |
|
07-30-2006, 01:37 PM | #650 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
- From May 2000 (when Israel first left Lebanon) to June 2006 in all of Hezbollah's attacks they killed 13 soldiers and 7 civilians. (and keep in mind that during this time, Israel fought back) So far in the past three weeks or so, Israel has had 33 soldiers and 19 civlians die. In other words, the Hezbollah attacks could have gone on for another 18 years or so and not inflicted the damage on Israel that this war has so far. - Hezbollah will not be destroyed. In all likelihood they will be more popular in Lebanon. - Like mentioned before, the only way to win against an insurgency is to win over the people and take away its support. Israel has done absolutely nothing wihch would further this goal, and is in actuality further from it today than before the war. - Not only a mistake by Israel, but a mistake by us. We chose to forget about our traditional role as peacemaker, before we could at least nominally be considered an 'honest broker'. That's gone. There just aren't any good things that came out of this. Israel had to answer to political pressure, not common sense. |
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
Thread Tools | |
|
|