NFL "Teams Behaving Badly" Thread: 2015

[miked]

I think the ambiguity from the league is pretty bad. I can understand not writing down the pressures, but nobody has come out and said that they tested each ball with a pressure gauge to make sure they were in compliance. Which seems odd since apparently other teams have been complaining about the Pats balls for half the season or whatever. So I think just as it is incumbent on the Pats to provide evidence, I think the league also needs to clarify as well. Were there pressure gauges used in the pre-test: yes/no. Were the refs specifically told to watch out for NE balls being deflated: yes/no. Goodell is an idiot.

[Warhammer]

Also, if these guys do it every week, they can get it down to how the ball feels. So it does not surprise me that there may not be a log, or some may not use a gauge.

I used to sell piping systems. After selling the system, I had to conduct training for the installers. I had one guy that had been doing it for years, that said he never had to use the gauges to check the pipe prep. One day we had time on our hands, and I did 8 or 10 random pipe ends and let him check them. He nailed each and every one, with a nuanced response (in spec, but on the low side. This is way to deep. This is out of spec, but just a hair on the high side, etc.). That said, he was the one that did all their pipe prep for 10 years, but it can be done.

Now, would I have trusted any of the other guys on the crew to do this? No. Point is, I can completely understand the lack of documentation, and would be surprised to find a gauge used in the process.

[Kodos]

Yeah, it seems like the process would go like this: Check ball - Pressure good? Throw in good pile. Pressure bad - Throw in don't use pile.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I agree. Some people seemed to have mis-interpreted not writing down exact numbers as not having tested the balls at all. Seem like two different things.

Some are grasping for reasons to write it off as no big deal.

[jeff061]

Like it being, in fact, no big deal.

[Kodos]

Because you clearly have no dog in the fight.

[jeff061]

Fact is a fact. This is like the sky is blue.

It's not a big deal.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I have zero dogs in this fight and this is one of the dumbest things ever. It is no big deal. It's barely even a little deal. It's stupid. This is a classic example of a tempest in a tea pot.

Pure nonsense.

[Dutch]

If Tom Brady fumbles 4 times and goes 18 for 52 with an inflated football...I'm gonna give that cheatin' muthafucka the business! Might as well just let Adrian Hernandez out of prison and put Brady in his place!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by jeff061

It's not a big deal.

Not calling you out specifically here but you do provide a great example.

That cheating is "not a big deal" is a sign of just how far this country has fallen.

As a civilized nation, we're a f'n disgrace.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not calling you out specifically here but you do provide a great example.

That cheating is "not a big deal" is a sign of just how far this country has fallen.

As a civilized nation, we're a f'n disgrace.

[jeff061]

Get off my lawn!

Speaking generally, in a zero sum fashion and not about this incident, I'm not sure how you can say cheating is more tolerated now than it has ever been. 15 years ago this isn't considered interesting enough to even report on, let alone 50-100+ years ago.

We are going the opposite direction than you seem to be implying. Society is constantly outraged over something.

[molson]

By FOF interest, this is maybe the biggest football story of all time at this point.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not calling you out specifically here but you do provide a great example.

That cheating is "not a big deal" is a sign of just how far this country has fallen.

As a civilized nation, we're a f'n disgrace.

Heh!!!!

[Solecismic]

I still haven't seen any evidence that the process itself guarantees an inflation level. So far, all I've seen is that all quarterbacks choose footballs that feel good to them and the referee checks them all.

I don't see evidence that referees use a pressure gauge and have made efforts to ensure that the ball is inflated to specification. I don't see evidence that other teams always use properly inflated footballs.

The only rule that seems to be in effect is that the referee is responsible for ensuring the ball is good.

If someone has evidence that the Patriots altered these balls after the inspection, yes, that's cheating and they should be punished. That would be a big deal.

Otherwise, then I don't think it's a big deal, and I would want to see data on the inflation level of every other team's footballs before I'd even worry about the issue of fair play here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I'm not sure how you can say cheating is more tolerated now than it has ever been. 15 years ago this isn't considered interesting enough to even report on, let alone 50-100+ years ago.

When 'roids/PEDs start in the earliest years of high school, when we get impassioned defenses of virtually every offense no matter how grave, when there is a constant drumbeat of "anything goes" ... yeah, I'd say it's worse than ever.

Sports, like politics, isn't the cause. It's merely a reflection of the depths we're willing to sink to.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Dutch

If Tom Brady fumbles 4 times and goes 18 for 52 with an inflated football...I'm gonna give that cheatin' muthafucka the business! Might as well just let Adrian Hernandez out of prison and put Brady in his place!

I'm sure, even if there was video footage of Hernandez killing someone, people would be arguing that he should be allowed to play if they thought he would swing the game in the favor of the Patriots. "He hasn't had due process yet! Let the courts decide! We can't deprive him of his living!"

[molson]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I'm sure, even if there was video footage of Hernandez killing someone, people would be arguing that he should be allowed to play if they thought he would swing the game in the favor of the Patriots. "He hasn't had due process yet! Let the courts decide! We can't deprive him of his living!"

Even without video footage of the murder nobody's arguing this.

[Sublime 2]

Originally Posted by Arles

To go along with Dr. Sak's comments, I'm not sure what everyone's expectation of the refs are for checking the footballs? Did people really think that a ref sits and writes down the exact PSI for all 24 footballs by serial number before each game? That seems a little silly. If the refs did a pressure check and found all 24 balls to be within compliance (maybe even inflating a few that were a little low/hi) - that seems good enough as a baseline. If the head ref says all 24 balls were checked and left his office between the allotted range of 12.5 to 13.5 PSI, then I see no difference in the situation than if they were measured to the exact PSI by serial number.

Now, if the league didn't really check, that's a different story. But, Blandino didn't say that - he just said they didn't document the exact pressure per ball. But, whether a ball was 12.5 PSI or 13 PSI, there's no reasonable way it gets to 10.5 PSI at halftime without some kind of tomfoolery. As much as I lack confidence in the NFL to run a legit investigation, I can't see the distinction between all 12 Pats balls being initial checked between 12.5-13.5 and actually recording that the footballs were 13.1 PSI, 12.8 PSI, 13.2 PSI, .. having any real impact on their penalty.

If the league feels confident that the inspection process had the balls between 12.5 and 13.5 prior to kickoff, the issue remains.

I think the problem is you're relying on the 2psi drop that Mort first reported. I believe he has back tracked on that to 1psi below guidelines. This has been proven by multiple physicists, engineers, labs, etc. to be perfectly within the scope of atmospheric deflation - I think including precipitation one person even had a football down 1.8 psi.

I don't know if there's any info on the Colts balls at halftime, other than they were within rules. If they started on the high end (as it appears most QBs like), they might have only dropped to 12.5.

I'm totally biased, and basing this on Mort's backtrack to 1 psi, which I did not hear directly, only read.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sports, like politics, isn't the cause. It's merely a reflection of the depths we're willing to sink to.

Let's make a list of things JIMGA finds disgraceful about modern society to really put this in context.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by molson

Let's make a list of things JIMGA finds disgraceful about modern society to really put this in context.

Is there a post character limit?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by molson

Let's make a list of things JIMGA finds disgraceful about modern society to really put this in context.

No one has that kind of free time, man.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

No one has that kind of free time, man.

I don't even have that kind of time.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I don't even have that kind of time.

That's a disgrace, Jon.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

That's a disgrace, Jon.

State of the world man, state of the world.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by molson

Even without video footage of the murder nobody's arguing this.

Clearly he was kept on the Patriots roster for weeks after being charged with murder as well.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not calling you out specifically here but you do provide a great example.

That cheating is "not a big deal" is a sign of just how far this country has fallen.

As a civilized nation, we're a f'n disgrace.

While I'm not sure I'd go *quite* that far... but yeah, it's disgraceful that some people have been calling cheating not a big deal.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I still haven't seen any evidence that the process itself guarantees an inflation level. So far, all I've seen is that all quarterbacks choose footballs that feel good to them and the referee checks them all.

I don't see evidence that referees use a pressure gauge and have made efforts to ensure that the ball is inflated to specification. I don't see evidence that other teams always use properly inflated footballs.

The video on this site shows how the refs check the footballs before each game.

Deflategate: Video showing how officials check pressure of game balls | The MMQB with Peter King

[molson]

Originally Posted by sabotai

The video on this site shows how the refs check the footballs before each game.

Deflategate: Video showing how officials check pressure of game balls | The MMQB with Peter King

"Head linesman Wayne Mackie and field judge Bob Waggoner are seen checking the pressure and taking some of the air out of balls to bring them down to regulation. Back judge Dino Paganelli, working at the locker room sink, reinflates balls that fell below regulation up to the 12.5-13.5 psi range."

I want to know which team submitted a batch of balls that included both overinlated and underflated balls.

[whomario]

To have restrictions in place and then have each team play with "their" set of balls seems just really counter-intuitive ...

1) The NFL and it´s personnel are the ones responsible for the balls before and during the games. Can´t be that difficult to designate an extra "referee" for this (doesn´t there have to be a reserve ref present ?) task who is responsible for getting balls into play.

2) Let everybody use whatever the hell ball they want.

each makes more sense than what is in place now.

Originally Posted by sabotai

The video on this site shows how the refs check the footballs before each game.

Deflategate: Video showing how officials check pressure of game balls | The MMQB with Peter King

what seems weird to me from all the articles actually dealing with the "ball" part of the story and this video is that no actually cares about the nature off the ball all that much, apart from the random-seeming pressure range. Like the part in this video about the Kickers balls in this video. Or the fact that any player is asked to play with any of 12 balls that can potentially be in quite different shape after a few plays and depending on the conditions.
And if Kickers are allowed to manipulate the balls to a degree, why not quarterbacks ? (and yes, i realize that they are with the "range" given). Especially considering that there are very different preferences as to whether a high or a low pressure should be used (like Rodgers actually preferring high pressure balls).


And as a layman of the sport with no personal interest in the Patriots either way, i personally found the debunking of the fumble stats posted above very convincing. Ignoring the Dome teams when there stats in this category are clearly not outliers is a cardinal sin when presenting a statistic. Also posting numbers off 1 team but not (all) others. Or choosing a split (2007-2014) and not accounting for splits surrounding that to account for outlier seasons (and 2007-2013 the Patriots suddenly did not look as otherwordly, especially if you put the Dome-teams back into play).

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by molson

I want to know which team submitted a batch of balls that included both overinlated and underflated balls.

"I like variety in my balls", replied famed QB Dean Houston of the Des Moines Cowtippers.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Sublime 2

I think the problem is you're relying on the 2psi drop that Mort first reported. I believe he has back tracked on that to 1psi below guidelines.

Yup, the only confirmed fact so far is that the Patriots had some underinflated balls during the first half, and they were fixed at halftime. Everything else is reports that keep changing with new leaks. The fact that so many people have dead-set opinions on guilt or innocence based on so little information continues to boggle my mind.

I wonder how many more times I'll get to post that?

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by molson

"Head linesman Wayne Mackie and field judge Bob Waggoner are seen checking the pressure and taking some of the air out of balls to bring them down to regulation. Back judge Dino Paganelli, working at the locker room sink, reinflates balls that fell below regulation up to the 12.5-13.5 psi range."

I want to know which team submitted a batch of balls that included both overinlated and underflated balls.

You mean maybe some teams out there aren't paying that close attention to the pressure of the balls they submit for testing, so maybe the pressure isn't all that big a deal to them? Is that the second actual fact we can add to the list?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Yup, the only confirmed fact so far is that the Patriots had some underinflated balls during the first half, and they were fixed at halftime. Everything else is reports that keep changing with new leaks. The fact that so many people have dead-set opinions on guilt or innocence based on so little information continues to boggle my mind.

I wonder how many more times I'll get to post that?

While it's worth noting, at least to me, that I said from the outset that we need to know what did/didn't happen, who knew/did what, when they knew it, etc and THEN levy the punishment ... by the same token, if Belichek walked into a room dripping wet carrying and umbrella & told me it was raining I'd still look out the window to make sure.

He should be thankful for the existence of Pete Carroll, 'cause if that same scenario occurred with him I'd probably start looking for sunscreen to put on.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Arles

To go along with Dr. Sak's comments, I'm not sure what everyone's expectation of the refs are for checking the footballs? Did people really think that a ref sits and writes down the exact PSI for all 24 footballs by serial number before each game? That seems a little silly. If the refs did a pressure check and found all 24 balls to be within compliance (maybe even inflating a few that were a little low/hi) - that seems good enough as a baseline. If the head ref says all 24 balls were checked and left his office between the allotted range of 12.5 to 13.5 PSI, then I see no difference in the situation than if they were measured to the exact PSI by serial number.

Now, if the league didn't really check, that's a different story. But, Blandino didn't say that - he just said they didn't document the exact pressure per ball. But, whether a ball was 12.5 PSI or 13 PSI, there's no reasonable way it gets to 10.5 PSI at halftime without some kind of tomfoolery. As much as I lack confidence in the NFL to run a legit investigation, I can't see the distinction between all 12 Pats balls being initial checked between 12.5-13.5 and actually recording that the footballs were 13.1 PSI, 12.8 PSI, 13.2 PSI, .. having any real impact on their penalty.

If the league feels confident that the inspection process had the balls between 12.5 and 13.5 prior to kickoff, the issue remains.

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I agree. Some people seemed to have mis-interpreted not writing down exact numbers as not having tested the balls at all. Seem like two different things.

The part that confuses me is whether they wrote down the pressures at halftime. Unless the NFL was planning a sting before the game (and they've said they weren't), I wouldn't expect any ref to be writing down the pressure of the balls even if he checks with a gauge. Would he also need to measure and write down the length and circumference of each ball? No, it's ridiculous. But once the NFL did decide to test them at halftime I would hope they wrote down the PSI's. Because whether they were within a pound of the PSI or whether they were all 2+ pounds under does seem to be a huge difference - the first gives a plausible weather-related reason while the second would pretty much guarantee the Patriots at the least submitted under-inflated balls hoping they wouldn't be checked. And if 10/11 of them from the Patriots sideline were low by less than a pound and the one from the Colts sideline was 2+ pounds under then I'd have some more questions.

Originally Posted by stevew

I feel like they should have tried to placate Blount, but their rushing offense was #12 in DVOA.

It'll be humorous when the Pats get a #6 compensation for losing Blount to the Steelers via FA.

No idea why you cut Blount without a backup plan or waste a #3 on a scat back either.

Obviously no idea what exactly went on behind closed doors, but I don't think Blount has a problem sharing carries and I'm not even sure if he would have complained about Bell getting the majority of carries seeing as he was a stud this year. The game he walked out on in the 4th quarter Bell had 33 carries and Blount 0 - not gonna defend walking out, but I can see a player's frustration when he's literally getting zero touches.

The Steelers were just dumb. Le'Veon Bell was an absolute stud this year, but there's a reason you don't give 80% of your touches to one running back. And sure enough, he got hurt and their offense cratered in the playoffs. Heck, they didn't even bother signing Ben Tate or trying to sign Ray Rice and start teaching one of them the playbook until Bell did get injured.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not calling you out specifically here but you do provide a great example.

That cheating is "not a big deal" is a sign of just how far this country has fallen.

As a civilized nation, we're a f'n disgrace.

Originally Posted by Izulde

While I'm not sure I'd go *quite* that far... but yeah, it's disgraceful that some people have been calling cheating not a big deal.

You guys and TroyF can live in your fantasy world, meanwhile the rest of us realize that not all "cheating" is the same. If the Patriots were bribing refs or tapping into the other teams communication system or playing with 12 players or in Troy's post a person is lying on their taxes that's one thing, playing with slightly underinflated balls is closer to gamesmanship than that. Even past that it matters how it happened - if the Patriots were letting air out of the balls after testing then I'd call it cheating (while still not being *that* big a deal) and say they deserve punishment like loss of a 1st round pick and a fine. If the Patriots were submitting underinflated balls and hoping the referees didn't catch it I don't think that's much different than a DB/OL trying to get away with holding on every play.

When I go bowling or play pool with friends I stay within the lines and play "honorably". When I play or coach a sport I'm not saying anything goes because there are obvious lines and patently unfair things like deliberately injuring an opponent behind the play even if I can get away with it, or bribing a ref - something that legitimately stops it being a sport in my eyes. But you better believe I try to creep closer than 10 yards when defending a free kick, I try to release a second early when subbing on the fly and I try to give that extra little physical contact that is technically against the rules but the ref will usually allow. I play to win, I push those limits and rely on the refs to enforce the rules, and I never complain if the ref calls me on it. Quite frankly I love that Belichick/the Patriots (and Carroll/Seattle) play the same way.

[EagleFan]

Must be nice to be able to be the moral compass of the world to declare what is and what isn't really wrong. Just obey the rules that you think are important, the hell with the others.

Just freaking deal with it. Your team tried to bend the rules AGAIN. Just because your fan base is so self righteous that it can't admit the team ever does anything wrong, that's not my concern but it is annoying as hell.

Deal with it and move on, stop whining that everyone is against you.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Must be nice to be able to be the moral compass of the world to declare what is and what isn't really wrong. Just obey the rules that you think are important, the hell with the others.

Just freaking deal with it. Your team tried to bend the rules AGAIN. Just because your fan base is so self righteous that it can't admit the team ever does anything wrong, that's not my concern but it is annoying as hell.

Deal with it and move on, stop whining that everyone is against you.

Haha, sorry I forgot to add your name to that list. You ever driven over the speed limit or walked across a street not in a crosswalk or not paid a parking meter? Everyone decides that breaking certain laws/rules isn't a big deal every day. And I'm not trying to say what's right or wrong, but rather point out that's that's how people actually behave in the world and when they're playing sports.

Hell yes we tried to bend the rules and obey the letter but not the spirit of them. Are you also mad that the Patriots did the eligible number innovation vs the Ravens? That was certainly violating the spirit of the rules while being technically legal.

You see me whining that fans are against the Patriots? No, because I know that nobody would care about us if we weren't winning games - it comes with the territory. But yes I will argue about the facts or hypotheticals with people , while also continuing to follow the topic because I'm genuinely interested in what happened and we have no concrete answer. And yes I will point out NFL hypocrisy or a Goodell vendetta when I see one - just like I did when a Raven like Ray Rice got railroaded the 2nd time Goodell punished him. If the Patriots found some advantage there we should be punished, but that's also kind of cool. If we're just sloppy and breaking rules for no reason that's dumb and we should be punished. If this is something that happens quite often and to/by many NFL teams but is only a story because it's the Patriots then yes I am going to point that out. No one's making you click on the topic and post the same thing every 2 pages.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by sabotai

The video on this site shows how the refs check the footballs before each game.

Deflategate: Video showing how officials check pressure of game balls | The MMQB with Peter King

I like the point where the ref is like, "12.5, that's close enough" and chucks it as an afterthought.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Justifciations ... for something that nobody has even been convicted on yet.

Fixed that for you.

[molson]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Deal with it and move on, stop whining that everyone is against you.

Posters tried to move on in the other thread and you didn't like that either. It's almost as if you won't stop whining.

[albionmoonlight]

Ian Rappaport now saying that one ball was significantly underinflated and the other ten were just "a tick" underinflated.

At this point, I would not trust the NFL to investigate whether water was wet.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

At this point, I would not trust the NFL to investigate whether water was wet.

Their findings show that water is not wet.

[Sublime 2]

What a 2 week long crock of shit.

Seems like an appropriate time to post this as well.

[bhlloy]

NFL investigates Georgia Dome noise - ESPN

Outrage! Fire! Brimstone!

No?

[miked]

Falcons investigated for pumping in crowd noise while opponents huddle. WHERE'S THE OUTRAGE!!!!??!?

NFL investigating Atlanta Falcons for fake crowd noise at Georgia Dome - ESPN

LOL, double post.

[mckerney]

Take away all the Falcons draft picks for three years! Find out if Matt Ryan was involved at all and then suspend him for next season anyway!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Take away all the Falcons draft picks for three years! Find out if Matt Ryan was involved at all and then suspend him for next season anyway!

You'd get no argument from a lot of Falcons fans about that. It would certainly do more to help the team long term than the draft picks likely would.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

NFL investigates Georgia Dome noise - ESPN

Outrage! Fire! Brimstone!

No?

Also cheating, and yes - if they did this there should be some form of punishment. Same with any teams who open up doors to affect wind, etc.

[JonInMiddleGA]

pourmecoffee ‏@pourmecoffee 18m18 minutes ago

He's just there so he won't get fined AND TO RUN THE BALL IN THAT SITUATION.