Trayvon Martin case to go to grand jury, Fla. state attorney announces

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Lathum

this thread will likely end badly

Yep. If a white kid had been jumped by him, it would have been a plea bargain because he's guilty. Black guy, guilty of being black, mostly white women which is worse. How is an unarmed man that ends up shot somehow guilty in all this. Which is effectively what people are saying if he gets off.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Yep. If a white kid had been jumped by him, it would have been a plea bargain because he's guilty. Black guy, guilty of being black, mostly white women which is worse. How is an unarmed man that ends up shot somehow guilty in all this. Which is effectively what people are saying if he gets off.

Martin isn't guilty of anything. But in Florida, you have a right to use deadly force to defend yourself against a beatdown via fist. If that's what the jury decided happened, then they should acquit him. The big disconnect here is between moral and legal judgments. Zimmerman was morally wrong, but legally in the right, if things went down as he argues they did (and the state really has zero evidence that things went down differently, let alone enough to meet a beyond a reasonable doubt standard.). A Zimmerman acquittal wouldn't mean that Martin is somehow "guilty", or even morally in the wrong.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Yep. If a white kid had been jumped by him, it would have been a plea bargain because he's guilty. Black guy, guilty of being black, mostly white women which is worse. How is an unarmed man that ends up shot somehow guilty in all this. Which is effectively what people are saying if he gets off.

1) I am beyond sick of the race card being played by everyone in this. This is not a white guy vs a black guy. This is hispanic vs black. We have a LONG way to go o fix race in this country, but we are never going to get there when we have this passion for injecting it in everything we can and using it to suit our needs.

2) How is the unarmed kid guilty in this? Well, he's not guilty, he is dead. The rest depends on what story you happen to believe. I personally think the defense did a pretty good job of showing that Martin initiated the physical confrontation. I think the also did a pretty good job of showing Martin got the upper hand in this altercation.

At this point, it does not matter how Zimmerman ends up on his back with Martin on top of him. If he shot because he was in fear of his life, he is not guilty. End of story. The jury will have to determine if they feel that is the case.


Last thing on race. . . Had the roles been reversed and had Zimmerman been on the phone with a friend and uttered the N word, I doubt very seriously it would be as cut and dry as you say. Just like this case, it would be very divided. I cannot speak for every white male in the country, only myself, but I think Zimmerman is not guilty because of reasonable doubt.

As much eat as the prosecution has taken, I think the fact they have made this a case where they havea punchers chance at a manslaughter conviction is pretty amazing.

[RainMaker]

It is one of the most interesting cases I can ever remember. At this point I feel like manslaughter is probably fair.

The defense did a good job arguing self-defense. And it is possible that he was in a situation where he needed to defend himself with lethal force (no one was really there so who knows?). But I still feel that chasing someone around your neighborhood at night, especially a minor, with a loaded weapon, is confrontational. It's something that would make a lot of people fear for their life. And when you provoke that confrontation and then end up on the losing end, you can't claim self-defense.

No winners in this at all. Really shitty situation.

[rowech]

This stuff happens every day in cities everywhere in this country. Tis isn't some special case other than for whatever reason the media chose to make it one. I'm glad it went to trial, that's what we have a court system for but he can't be found guilty of anything other than poor judgement.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by rowech

This stuff happens every day in cities everywhere in this country. Tis isn't some special case other than for whatever reason the media chose to make it one. I'm glad it went to trial, that's what we have a court system for but he can't be found guilty of anything other than poor judgement.

That's pretty much the layman's definition of manslaughter, when someone dies because of someone else's poor judgement.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by cartman

That's pretty much the layman's definition of manslaughter, when someone dies because of someone else's poor judgement.

However the sd principal nullifies poor judgement t. In fl when you fear for your life you have the legal right to use poor judgement.

I think Zimmerman is a pussy, who picked a fight, got his ass handed to him and then shot trayvon like a bitch ...but I think he has the legal right to act like that in fl.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by TroyF

1) I am beyond sick of the race card being played by everyone in this. This is not a white guy vs a black guy. This is hispanic vs black. We have a LONG way to go o fix race in this country, but we are never going to get there when we have this passion for injecting it in everything we can and using it to suit our needs.

I think it's been used too much in this case, but you can't honestly tell me that if it was a 28 year old black man chasing around someone who is non-black in a neighborhood and ending in a scuffle where he shot him, we'd see the same outrage. And the same people taking the same sides. I get the feeling Sean Hannitty wouldn't be defending Zimmerman every night and that Al Sharpton wouldn't be calling for justice of the non-black kid who was shot.

[miami_fan]

I have not been following the case intently so I don't know if this has been discussed. Did Trayvon Martin have the right under the law to feel like his life was in danger by Zimmerman following him?

[Young Drachma]

"The Race Card" should be a band name. People sure love saying it.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I have not been following the case intently so I don't know if this has been discussed. Did Trayvon Martin have the right under the law to feel like his life was in danger by Zimmerman following him?

Yes, but I believe that right falls somewhere short of beating the bejesus out of the soft old dude looking for you in between yards.

If he had initiated a dialogue rather than assault he would be alive, and Zimmerman would have come off like the crazy loon that he is when the police arrived, if it even lasted that long.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Yes, but I believe that right falls somewhere short of beating the bejesus out of the soft old dude looking for you in between yards.

If he had initiated a dialogue rather than assault he would be alive, and Zimmerman would have come off like the crazy loon that he is when the police arrived, if it even lasted that long.

If who had initiated a conversation, Martin?

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Yes, but I believe that right falls somewhere short of beating the bejesus out of the soft old dude looking for you in between yards.

If he had initiated a dialogue rather than assault he would be alive, and Zimmerman would have come off like the crazy loon that he is when the police arrived, if it even lasted that long.

If Zimmerman is a 'crazy loon,' what's to say a dialogue would have kept him from doing crazy loon shit?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I think Zimmerman is a pussy, who picked a fight, got his ass handed to him and then shot trayvon like a bitch ...but I think he has the legal right to act like that in fl.

This is pretty much where I'm sittin'.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

If Zimmerman is a 'crazy loon,' what's to say a dialogue would have kept him from doing crazy loon shit?

See CU Tiger and Ben's posts.
I guess crazy loon loses something in the translation. I think Zimmerman is/was a wannabe cop, self proclaimed hero, and overly suspicious probably paranoid jerk. But i dont think he was, in any way, looking for a physical confrontation that night.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

If who had initiated a conversation, Martin?

Yes. As in "hey what are you doing following me?"

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Yes. As in "hey what are you doing following me?"

How things exactly went down were only known to two people, and one of them can't corroborate or refute the other's story. So we don't know things like if Zimmerman already had his gun out when he was trying to find Martin, or if there was any verbal communication before the fight started. If the gun was already out, then I could see there not being any words exchanged if Martin saw the gun.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Yes. As in "hey what are you doing following me?"

I'll jump in here regarding the fact that I tend to agree with the idea that Zimmerman 'picked a fight.' I haven't read anything that disproves (or really even challenges) the notion that Martin jumped him, so I'll go with that. But that said, when someone is following you at night for no good reason, I can absolutely understand why Martin would have felt threatened and chose to punch first, ask questions later.

As someone said earlier, it's just a terrible situation all around. I don't believe for one second that Zimmerman was out to kill that night, and I don't believe for one second that Martin was out to beat someone up that night. Ultimately, I place the "blame" for the way things went down on Zimmerman's overzealousness, but I'm not sure that means he should be convicted of a crime.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

See CU Tiger and Ben's posts.
I guess crazy loon loses something in the translation. I think Zimmerman is/was a wannabe cop, self proclaimed hero, and overly suspicious probably paranoid jerk. But i dont think he was, in any way, looking for a physical confrontation that night.

Which is why he was carrying a gun, right?

Look, I know, Fifth Amendment and all that, blah blah.

But the dude's packing heat, he's, as you say, a wannabe cop, he follows Martin against the advice of the dispatcher.

Is he guilty of murder, or was it genuine self-defense? Who knows regarding the former, but I'm skeptical of an argument that suggests that one can precipitate an outcome via one's actions and that lethal force in response then becomes "self-defense."

If one wishes to argue that Zimmerman didn't expect Martin to put up a fight because Zimmerman was packing heat, that still doesn't equate to "wasn't looking for a confrontation." He was looking for one; he just thought his gun would pre-empt a physical fight and then he'd be the hero for making a citizen's arrest.

If he wanted to avoid a confrontation, physical or otherwise, all he had to do was stay in the car. Now, none of that ought to be construed as 'Zimmerman committed murder.' That's not what I'm arguing here.

What I'm saying is that crazy gonna crazy. If Zimmerman did what he did because he's a loon, I don't think attempting a dialogue would have changed anything.

[Glengoyne]

No I think he was carrying the gun for self defense. I don't think he had his gun drawn looking through the bushes. I think he was walking around looking for the 'suspicious dude in the hoodie', and lost him. Then he gave up, and found him when he got punched.

So yeah I am buying the story of the one guy who survived, but that story has so far held up to scrutiny.

There was no Zimmerman making an ass out of himself trying to apprehend the neighborhood skittles carrying kid. There was Zimmerman making an ass out of himself by taking it upon himself to "not lose" the kid/thug/suspicious guy in a hoodie.

As for Zimmerman suspending his right to self defense because he was over zealous in his pursuit of someone he himself declared as suspicious, I don't buy that line of reasoning.

[JPhillips]

This will be interesting to see how it plays out in NY.

Yesterday afternoon an African-American couple was eating at the outside tables at Benny’s Burrito in Greenwich Village when a drunken man, complaining about his wife leaving him and his job at Goldman Sachs, crashed their table. Douglass Reddish, 25, the man with his girlfriend, tried to help the man steady himself but got a different response than he likely expected.

“This nigger wants to fight me?” said the unidentified man according to witnesses at the scene, “You niggers are why I lost my job!”

Reddish clocked the man with a punch to his face which knocked him out cold. The back of the man’s head then struck the concrete and started to bleed profusely.

“He was out cold. I thought he was dead,” said Robert Garcia, a worker at the restaurant.

On seeing the extent of the man’s wounds, Reddish attempted to flee the scene but was later arrested by police and charged with assault.

The unidentified man, believed to be in his 30s, remains in critical condition at Beth Israel Medical Center.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This will be interesting to see how it plays out in NY.

Should be, the only play the dude has is the race card...

[Lathum]

I think the longer this goes on the more likely there is a manslaughter verdict. I think they can throw out the murder 2 easily but likely having a debate over the manslaughter.

My wife's cousin also thinks it possible the jury made their decision quickly but is drawing it out so it appears they are seriously mulling it over.

[cartman]

They have already been in deliberations longer than the Casey Anthony jury. And that one was 12 people vs. the 6 in this one.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Mike D

Should be, the only play the dude has is the race card...

Yeah. I don't see how samoeone being called a slur, albeit a disgusting one, is grounds for assault. I guess he could say he felt threatened since he guy asked him if he wants to fight, but not sure how that holds up.

And it is apples to oranges to the Martin case.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Mike D

Should be, the only play the dude has is the race card...

Stop trying to inject race into everything.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think it's been used too much in this case, but you can't honestly tell me that if it was a 28 year old black man chasing around someone who is non-black in a neighborhood and ending in a scuffle where he shot him, we'd see the same outrage. And the same people taking the same sides. I get the feeling Sean Hannitty wouldn't be defending Zimmerman every night and that Al Sharpton wouldn't be calling for justice of the non-black kid who was shot.

My belief? Yes. Revers the roles completely. The black guy is chasing a white guy. He gets on the phone with 911 and tells them the hockey doesn't deserve to be in the neighborhood. The white guy tells his friend some "use a word that starts with the letter N here"

A confrontation happens and the white guy dies. The same parties are all coming out. We have the standard divide of racial lines. We have Sharpton coming to the black guys defense. Msnbc is all over this crap. Fox jumps in on the white guys side.

Yeah, I think it still would have been a massive story. I mean this has it all.

[sterlingice]

I've never been on a jury before (have jury duty Monday, tho, but haven't been selected the other times I've been). But you'd have a hard time convincing me to change my mind either way. I would think I'd have made up my mind based on the trial and deliberating with five or eleven other people are very unlikely to change my mind as it's not like they are going to be bringing new evidence.

SI

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Stop trying to inject race into everything.

I got this. Somebody give me his number, I'll offer to be his lawyer.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Yes. As in "hey what are you doing following me?"

By all accounts, including zimmermans Martin said "what's your problem, man"

So he did initiate a conversation.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think it's been used too much in this case, but you can't honestly tell me that if it was a 28 year old black man chasing around someone who is non-black in a neighborhood and ending in a scuffle where he shot him, we'd see the same outrage. And the same people taking the same sides. I get the feeling Sean Hannitty wouldn't be defending Zimmerman every night and that Al Sharpton wouldn't be calling for justice of the non-black kid who was shot.

Well these are media whores who make their living by pandering to elements of divide that they are associated with (or that associate with them anyway). You can't expect intellectual honesty from them when it goes against their own paycheck.

And I'm not sure you have to expect that or should. For instance, I'm sure not every gay rights advocate necessarily would have been as vocal or outspoken on civil rights for black americans just as not every black american is actively advocating for gay rights. Its a "pick your battles" world to that extent even if you believe in it.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Well these are media whores who make their living by pandering to elements of divide that they are associated with (or that associate with them anyway). You can't expect intellectual honesty from them when it goes against their own paycheck.

And I'm not sure you have to expect that or should. For instance, I'm sure not every gay rights advocate necessarily would have been as vocal or outspoken on civil rights for black americans just as not every black american is actively advocating for gay rights. Its a "pick your battles" world to that extent even if you believe in it.

The Democrats and Republicans are more or less coalitions these days anyway, so this makes sense.

[SteveMax58]

I have to agree with others in that Zimmerman expected the kid would be intimidated by his "concealed metal courage", got the beatdown he deserved for harassing this kid, feared for his life, and shot Trayvon. Highly unfortunate series of events that Zimmerman provoked but not worthy of anything beyond manslaughter, imho.

Its unfortunate that being a severe dumbass can't be punishable in and of itself.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

By all accounts, including zimmermans Martin said "what's your problem, man"

So he did initiate a conversation.

I thought no words were exchanged before the punch.

Now I really wish Zimmerman had testified.

[bob]

Is it possible for them to find him innocent of murder, and be hung on the manslaughter charge? If so, what then? Does the finding of innocence remove that from the table and all they can do is retry for manslaughter?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by bob

Is it possible for them to find him innocent of murder, and be hung on the manslaughter charge? If so, what then? Does the finding of innocence remove that from the table and all they can do is retry for manslaughter?

If I'm reading the Florida laws correctly, it is simply a mistrial for a hung jury, with no guilt or innocence determined.

1. Verdict form for single count, single defendant.
We, the jury, find as follows, as to the defendant in this case: (check only one)
___a. The defendant is guilty of (crime charged).
___b. The defendant is guilty of (a lesser included offense).
___c. The defendant is not guilty.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think it's been used too much in this case, but you can't honestly tell me that if it was a 28 year old black man chasing around someone who is non-black in a neighborhood and ending in a scuffle where he shot him, we'd see the same outrage. And the same people taking the same sides. I get the feeling Sean Hannitty wouldn't be defending Zimmerman every night and that Al Sharpton wouldn't be calling for justice of the non-black kid who was shot.

One thing I know for sure is that if Zimmerman and Martin were both black or both white, nobody would give a crap either way. I suspect it never would even have been questioned outside of Martin's family if that were true.

[cartman]

The jury sent a note to the judge asking for clarification on the manslaughter charge instructions.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by cartman

The jury sent a note to the judge asking for clarification on the manslaughter charge instructions.

Pretty clear murder 2 is out then. There is no need to go to manslaughter if you think he is guilty of the primary charge.

[SackAttack]

I dunno if it's out, necessarily. It could be, but it could also be a case where three jurors are voting for murder 2 and three are kind of on the fence. It may be that they requested clarification for those three so they can cast a vote, but it may also be that the entire jury is deciding between acquittal and manslaughter.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

I dunno if it's out, necessarily. It could be, but it could also be a case where three jurors are voting for murder 2 and three are kind of on the fence. It may be that they requested clarification for those three so they can cast a vote, but it may also be that the entire jury is deciding between acquittal and manslaughter.

Basically, it means it can go anyway and they're still debating.

[Galaxy]

Is it really "Breaking News" that, "Jury Ordered Dinner; Court Recessed 1 Hr?"

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Basically, it means it can go anyway and they're still debating.

Maybe it's my personal bias, but I don't believe that. They NEVER had a case for murder 2 to begin with. I doubt it took more than an hour or two to drop that out of h equation. I would be willing to wager some money that the problem is the jurors hung on the manslaughter.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Is it really "Breaking News" that, "Jury Ordered Dinner; Court Recessed 1 Hr?"

It could be, really depends on what they ordered. If they went with salads I think we'll see an acquittal, but if they opted for fried chicken I think Zimmerman could be facing the electric chair.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Maybe it's my personal bias, but I don't believe that. They NEVER had a case for murder 2 to begin with. I doubt it took more than an hour or two to drop that out of h equation. I would be willing to wager some money that the problem is the jurors hung on the manslaughter.

I don't think so either, but you just never know with jurors.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by mckerney

It could be, really depends on what they ordered. If they went with salads I think we'll see an acquittal, but if they opted for fried chicken I think Zimmerman could be facing the electric chair.

SI

[cartman]

Jurors have reached a verdict. Nothing yet on when it will be announced.

[cartman]

I guess everybody wanted to get out. Not Guilty.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by cartman

I guess everybody wanted to get out. Not Guilty.

not shocking. its a stupid law, but its the law. NRA allows another murderer back on the street. I hope they get sued by everyone who has riot damage.

[CraigSca]

What's the stupid law?