The Trump Presidency – 2016

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's remarkable. Feels like performance art at this point.

Peaceful protests are a hallmark of our democracy. Even if I don't always agree, I recognize the rights of people to express their views.

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 22, 2017

[Thomkal]

But he'll still complain when they do it.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

But he'll still complain when they do it.

Not if you're a white supremacist.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

But he'll still complain when they do it.

As is his right

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

As is his right

Totally his right to call them "sons of bitches."

So many Trump supporters in my circle constantly complain that he is treated so much harsher than any other president, and how can you argue, when he does it all to himself? He has brought all of it upon himself. His actions, especially as the most powerful man in the world, will come back to him in kind. It's his MO. He is so used to behaving any way he can, and as the head of his own family business he doesn't have anyone higher up to challenge any of his words, and if they do, he has the pockets to sue them to shut them up. He's simply not smart enough, or shall I say, he's narcissistic enough to believe that he can get away with it now. This is "New Presidential" so the rest of the US needs to be prepared for the new response from his opponents to deal with it.

[NobodyHere]

Trump praises players locking arms during anthem, still opposed to kneeling

I gotta agree with Trump on this one.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I gotta agree with Trump on this one.

Why one and not the other? .. what is 'bad' about kneeling as a statement? ... I'm intruiged despite the fact I realise he's mainly doing this to distract from the debacle elsewhere in his presidency ..

[NobodyHere]

Standing is a sign of respect. Kneeling is a sign of disrespect.

[Easy Mac]

So was taking up arms against the US military, but white trash still for Confederate Battle Flags on their truck.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Standing is a sign of respect. Kneeling is a sign of disrespect.

Also, in this situation locking arms is a sign of disrespect. They're doing it in support of those kneeling, so they're explicitly supporting the sign of disrespect.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Also, in this situation locking arms is a sign of disrespect. They're doing it in support of those kneeling, so they're explicitly supporting the sign of disrespect.

I've thought about it a little more and while I'm not a yuuuuuuge fan of the locking arms (I just want politics out of NFL games), it is better than kneeling.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

So was taking up arms against the US military, but white trash still for Confederate Battle Flags on their truck.

I seriously don't understand how you could see kneeling as an unforgivable sign of disrespect and proudly display a confederate flag.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Standing is a sign of respect. Kneeling is a sign of disrespect.

What?

[Easy Mac]

I was at a minimum league baseball game last month. I was at the head of the concession line when the anthem started. I was legit confused what to do. I ended up turning and having no idea where a flag was, but not everyone did and the workers just carried on.

[Edward64]

I don't like how Trump said it but I do see kneeling (pre-Trump) as a sign of disrespect to the flag, country and those that fought to preserve it.

I'm sure there's more complex rationalization going on behind the scenes but I can't help but think its mostly a bunch of rich, spoiled players wanting to make a political statement while they have the stage (to be clear, I disagree with Emmy's etc. being politicized also).

If you don't like the political situation or BLM is something you support, find ways of supporting your cause, overcoming oppression (or whatever) without giving the finger to the flag.

Do the players have a right to kneel, sure. Do we (and the owners) have the right to respond negatively/blackballing if we disagree, sure. Kneeling and locking arms now are more a sign of solidarity vs original issue and I'm okay with that for now.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Standing is a sign of respect. Kneeling is a sign of disrespect.

Under whose interpretation? Seriously, Tony Jefferson of the Ravens knelt, placed his hand on his heart and silently looked at the flag as the anthem played. Kenny Stills of the Dolphins did the same. Yet this is more disrespectful than the fans you see at every game who stand and talk through the whole anthem, play on their phones or just keep walking munching their nachos while the anthem plays?

Kneeling and still acknowledging the flag is far more respectful than any of those actions. In fact, players kneel when someone is injured, is that disrespectful? You can kneel and still show a modicum of respect to the flag and those who serve under it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Kneeling and locking arms now are more a sign of solidarity vs original issue

Except that it's "standing in solidarity" with the worthless clueless gits that picked the wrong side of a virtual non-issue in the first place.

Lay down with dogs, get up with fleas, that old saw seems to apply here pretty well.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Under whose interpretation? Seriously, Tony Jefferson of the Ravens knelt, placed his hand on his heart and silently looked at the flag as the anthem played. Kenny Stills of the Dolphins did the same. Yet this is more disrespectful than the fans you see at every game who stand and talk through the whole anthem, play on their phones or just keep walking munching their nachos while the anthem plays?
.

Did Kapernick do this? I didn't read about this.

Did Tony Jefferson and Kenny Stills do this prior to the Kapernick backlash? Honestly don't know.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The one thing I don't have a problem with -- in theory, if not so much in application necessarily -- however is simply going about your business.

I don't play the national anthem before starting my work day, odds are 99.9% of the people in the stands don't either, and I don't feel like it's necessary to do so before anybody else's either. I'd be fine with the playing of the anthem being eliminated before all sporting events. I'm even okay with the concessionaires going on with their duties, there's no attempt at "statement" there, other than "I like getting paid for doing my job".

There's a significant dividing line between any of that and an intentional display of disrespect.

[JPhillips]

I've never been comfortable stopping to "worship" a flag or a song. It always seems like a moment more fitting for a monarchy or dictatorship than a democracy. The freedom to not participate should be respected like the freedom to be able to participate.

The whole thing doesn't mean anything if everyone is forced to participate.

[mckerney]

Kushner used private email to conduct White House business - POLITICO

LOCK. HIM. UP.

[JPhillips]

Maybe we can all agree Ray Lewis has the worst look of anybody.

[Radii]

I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

-- Martin Luther King, Jr
"Letter from a Birmingham Jail"

This is a peaceful protest. I get Jon's reaction, but I really don't understand the "this is the wrong way to go about it" responses from people who would otherwise agree with what Kaepernick was originally doing this for. Every form of protest disrespects something, but if you agree with the reason for the protest and its peaceful, then isn't that more important?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Standing is a sign of respect. Kneeling is a sign of disrespect.

I think it's a sign of disrespect when a draft dodger calls a Vietnam POW who refused to jump the line "not a war hero". Or when a draft dodger belittles a gold star family.

Let's stop pretending this has something to do with patriotism or respect for the flag. The people who voted for the guy gave up that moral high ground.

[TCY Junkie]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd be fine with the playing of the anthem being eliminated before all sporting events

Isn't the anthem played to get people excited for the upcoming event. Doesn't everyone like freedom of expression. Thought it was one thing people agreed on, but we can't even get along in the area. Sad times.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Radii

This is a peaceful protest. I get Jon's reaction, but I really don't understand the "this is the wrong way to go about it" responses from people who would otherwise agree with what Kaepernick was originally doing this for. Every form of protest disrespects something, but if you agree with the reason for the protest and its peaceful, then isn't that more important?

In almost every venue, I think process arguments are really about content.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

In almost every venue, I think process arguments are really about content.

Not sure on this one. Most Americans disagree with Kap's decision to take the knee. He runs the risk of alienating people that might otherwise be sympathetic to his cause.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Not sure on this one. Most Americans disagree with Kap's decision to take the knee. He runs the risk of alienating people that might otherwise be sympathetic to his cause.

The longer that this goes on, and the longer that Trump keeps pushing, the more push back he's going to get, the more that Kaep ends up looking like a social visionary, and his blackballing a disgrace. The people that are up in arms wish for the OJ Simpson kind of black man, not the Jim Brown version. The longer this goes on the more he's Tommie Smith and John Carlos.

[NobodyHere]

Honestly I have no idea who Tommie Smith and John Carlos are.

[RainMaker]

The only time I see complaints about people and the anthem is when it's tinged with racism. I've been to tons of games and people sit, go to the bathroom, eat nachos, and play on their phones during the anthem.

No one cares about the "disprespect" for the flag when it covers the field before a game (which is against flag code). When it's on a college football helmet or baseball hat (also against flag code). When it's on clothing or political marketing materials (also against flag code).

This has nothing to do with the flag or the anthem. It's low hanging fruit to attack black men for having personal freedom and political opinions. There's a reason Kap who is not even employed by an NFL team became a topic at an almost exclusively white rally in Alabama. I personally don't care about the topic but grow a set of testicles and admit what you're really upset about.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The only time I see complaints about people and the anthem is when it's tinged with racism. I've been to tons of games and people sit, go to the bathroom, eat nachos, and play on their phones during the anthem.

No one cares about the "disprespect" for the flag when it covers the field before a game (which is against flag code). When it's on a college football helmet or baseball hat (also against flag code). When it's on clothing or political marketing materials (also against flag code).

This has nothing to do with the flag or the anthem. It's low hanging fruit to attack black men for having personal freedom and political opinions. There's a reason Kap who is not even employed by an NFL team became a topic at an almost exclusively white rally in Alabama. I personally don't care about the topic but grow a set of testicles and admit what you're really upset about.

Nope, not me. It really is because I perceive it as disrespecting the flag and what people have fought and died for. Definitely not to attack black men for having personal freedom and political opinions.

Yes, I do think Kap was blackballed. I support his right to do what he wants but there are consequences, and do support the right for others/owners to do what they want in response.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Nope, not me. It really is because I perceive it as disrespecting the flag and what people have fought and died for. Definitely not to attack black men for having personal freedom and political opinions.

Yes, I do think Kap was blackballed. I support his right to do what he wants but there are consequences, and do support the right for others/owners to do what they want in response.

Why no anger at the NFL for displaying the flag across the field which is against flag code? Why no anger for the decals on the helmets which is also against code?

Just curious why your patriotism is so selective?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Not sure on this one. Most Americans disagree with Kap's decision to take the knee. He runs the risk of alienating people that might otherwise be sympathetic to his cause.

How many instances have there been where the government has told people how they should act and the government came out on the popular side in the end? If Trump continues to push forward on this issue it's going to make an unpopular administration even more unpopular and make Kaepernick the good guy in just about everyone but 4Chan and far right republican's eyes.

The number of hypocrisies from Trump supports by taking this stance is absurd. The confederate flag, Obama being the decisive president, white supremacists were ok having a peaceful protest, the government shouldn't tell us how to act, ect, ect, ect.

Rainmaker is partially correct saying that part of this is race related. I think the bigger issue here is people tend to really get offended when entertainers take political stances they don't agree with. As a society we are very quick to dismiss their right to do so because of what they do for a living.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why no anger at the NFL for displaying the flag across the field which is against flag code? Why no anger for the decals on the helmets which is also against code?

Just curious why your patriotism is so selective?

I actually didn't know it was against flag code. Intent is what is important, do you think the NFL meant to be disrespectful?

Don't you think if people told the NFL they were being disrespectful that they would stop? I think most people would think the NFL was honoring the flag even though you/official rules may say otherwise.

[JPhillips]

If it's all about intent, then you shouldn't be mad at the protesters. They've all made it very clear they have no intention of disrespecting the flag or the military.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Honestly I have no idea who Tommie Smith and John Carlos are.

Not the way to win an argument about social injustice.

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I actually didn't know it was against flag code. Intent is what is important, do you think the NFL meant to be disrespectful?

Don't you think if people told the NFL they were being disrespectful that they would stop? I think most people would think the NFL was honoring the flag even though you/official rules may say otherwise.

So, with that thinking, if the players weren't intending to disrespect the flag but wanted to bring attention to an issue they felt were important, then you're ok with it?

And if the kneeling was in support of a cause you believe strongly in, would that make it ok?

And if the players were speaking out about causes you supported, would you say they need to protest outside of their sport on their own time?

Whether I support what their saying or not, they have every right to say it as long as they aren't breaking the law to do so. As does any other group. That's what's great and not so great about this country.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

If it's all about intent, then you shouldn't be mad at the protesters. They've all made it very clear they have no intention of disrespecting the flag or the military.

So much this.

[PilotMan]

RendeR hasn't been here in years, but he has a pretty strong, and well communicated opinion on the matter and it's distinction.

Alright, look. I'm gonna post this hear so that all of you can be PERFECTLY clear on this.
One of my dearest freinds and someone I love dearly questioned my stance on supporting the NFL and its players in protesting. I will paste my response below, if you don't get it, I can't help you understand. If you disagree then perhaps you should just unfreind me and not be bothered by it from me any further.
I SERVED during wartime. I defended everyones rights. Don't ever use veterans or active duty members as some excuse to force others to do what YOU think is right. just do your shit and move the fuck on.
Previous post:
********,I love you but I will say this once and once only.
You are utterly and completely wrong.
This country is not a Fascist state. It is based on the FREE choice to live your life as you choose. our founding documents State very clearly that you have the right to speak, act and live as you wish.
Only in a fascist/dictatorial/militant regime are you under ANY requirement to profess your love respect or admiration for a SYMBOL.
Veterans and active duty members alike do NOT fight to protect your flag. They do NOT fight to protect a song.
They live breath and fight to protect your Nation and the RIGHTS that it gives you.
As a veteran of war I will stand proudly or sit proudly with any player, any team, any CITIZEN of this country and support their right to protest in ANY calm and peaceful manner.
If you don't approve of someone acting on their god given rights then it is YOU and anyone who thinks like YOU that needs to get out of MY country.
Go live under a dictator where you can stand like a well trained robot and spit out rah rah rhetoric that means NOTHING.
Your opinion INSULTS me and every veteran I ever served with.
We do not defend a flag, we do not defend a song. THAT is utter bullshit brainwashed into you by those who WANT control. they want good little mindless minions repeating a pledge or a song because it makes them controllable.
I'm done. if you don't get it after reading this you never will.
You are WRONG. If you have never served, you cannot speak for OR about those who have.. You are Wrong..

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I actually didn't know it was against flag code. Intent is what is important, do you think the NFL meant to be disrespectful?

Don't you think if people told the NFL they were being disrespectful that they would stop? I think most people would think the NFL was honoring the flag even though you/official rules may say otherwise.

It's not me saying otherwise, it's the United States government. I would hope the people lecturing others on the proper way to respect the flag and anthem would know the actual rules behind it.

Kaepernick has said he is not doing this to be disrespectful either. So if intent matters, you shouldn't be upset with him.

I don't know if these people upset know the rules. I do estimate that the reaction toward a President bashing the NFL for putting an American flag decal on their helmets wouldn't get the same reaction from a group of white folks in Alabama as calling some uppity black folks sons of bitches.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I think the bigger issue here is people tend to really get offended when entertainers take political stances they don't agree with. As a society we are very quick to dismiss their right to do so because of what they do for a living.

Is there term such as "beating a dead strawman"?

Just because people criticize someone does not mean we are "dismissing their right to do so". Yet Kap defenders always bring this up. People are free to choose who they listen to. Entertainers are not entitled to an audience.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

If it's all about intent, then you shouldn't be mad at the protesters. They've all made it very clear they have no intention of disrespecting the flag or the military.

I sense some nuance argument. Let's level set before we go deeper?

If you are referring to post-Trump tweet current protesters, I agree, it is a reaction against Trump.

I was referring to Kaepernick last year and the smattering of support he got prior to Trump tweet.

Are you referring to pre or post-Trump tweet? If you are referring to pre- can you state what you think they were protesting if not re: flag and what the protesters think it stands for?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Is there term such as "beating a dead strawman"?

Just because people criticize someone does not mean we are "dismissing their right to do so". Yet Kap defenders always bring this up. People are free to choose who they listen to. Entertainers are not entitled to an audience.

I think his statement is in regards to the people who say "stick to sports" when an athlete has an opinion. They aren't disagreeing with their opinion, they are saying that someone who plays sports or acts in movies should not have an opinion (or should not announce it to the world).

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I sense some nuance argument. Let's level set before we go deeper?

If you are referring to post-Trump tweet current protesters, I agree, it is a reaction against Trump.

I was referring to Kaepernick last year and the smattering of support he got prior to Trump tweet.

Are you referring to pre or post-Trump tweet? If you are referring to pre- can you state what you think they were protesting if not re: flag and what the protesters think it stands for?

Kaep said he was protesting the treatment of minorities in the United States. Like it or hate it, but it isn't about the flag or the military.

Now if you want to say it really is about the flag or the military, then you are implying intent in the same way you are saying is unfair when applied to how the NFL violates the flag code.

[Thomkal]

Trump to replace travel ban with restrictions on more countries - POLITICO

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I actually didn't know it was against flag code. Intent is what is important, do you think the NFL meant to be disrespectful?

Don't you think if people told the NFL they were being disrespectful that they would stop? I think most people would think the NFL was honoring the flag even though you/official rules may say otherwise.

The NFL gets paid big money by the Department of Defense. I'd say it's disrespectful to put on obviously staged patriotic acts for millions of dollars. Those soldiers returning home to surprise their family on the field, the DoD also pays big money for those to happen. The NFL doesn't give a rats ass about respecting a piece of cloth, they just want to make money off of it and are willing to do so in any way they can.

Also, how is it disrespectful to stage a protest about inequality and oppression during a song commemorating victory over a government that was doing those very things? The anthem is quite possibly the MOST appropriate time to protest peacefully.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Kaep said he was protesting the treatment of minorities in the United States. Like it or hate it, but it isn't about the flag or the military.

Now if you want to say it really is about the flag or the military, then you are implying intent in the same way you are saying is unfair when applied to how the NFL violates the flag code.

We may read it differently, let's agree to disagree.

Colin Kaepernick explains why he sat during national anthem - NFL.com

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

The NFL gets paid big money by the Department of Defense. I'd say it's disrespectful to put on obviously staged patriotic acts for millions of dollars. Those soldiers returning home to surprise their family on the field, the DoD also pays big money for those to happen. The NFL doesn't give a rats ass about respecting a piece of cloth, they just want to make money off of it and are willing to do so in any way they can.

Also, how is it disrespectful to stage a protest about inequality and oppression during a song commemorating victory over a government that was doing those very things? The anthem is quite possibly the MOST appropriate time to protest peacefully.

We are obviously coming at this from different angles.

I absolutely do support his right to protest. Just don't complain when there are repercussions from people that disagree with him.

[CrescentMoonie]

But precisely because the Trump threat is so profound, he has jolted much of the country to face problems that have been slowly eroding our democracy. And he has aroused a popular mobilization that may far outlast him.

How Trump is helping to save our democracy - The Washington Post

[PilotMan]

Drew Magary (always a voice of solid, conservative reason; he said sarcastically) over at Deadspin from last year on the Anthem. Exceptionally appropriate for today:

"I tell you all this as someone who likes the national anthem, mind you. I’ve sung it in front of crowds and gotten weepy hearing it during fragile moments in both the nation’s history and my own: the Whitney Houston anthem, the entire Garden crowd singing in unison after the Boston Marathon bombing, etc. At its best, hearing the national anthem is like going to church. It’s a unifier. It reminds you, in a comforting way, of things bigger than you. And it reminds you that you aren’t alone. The anthem should make you feel closer to a protestor like Colin Kaepernick, instead of wanting to brand him an enemy of the state. It’s not supposed to be a litmus test for who is with us and who is not. And it NOT meant to be a display of absolute fealty to the American military. In fact, our military exists (in theory) specifically so that no one ever makes such demands of you.

At its worst, the anthem is used as both an ideological cudgel and as a cynical marketing ploy. It’s a cheap, easy way for sports franchises to make themselves as unassailable as the song itself. You trot out some troops, you play the anthem, and PRESTO! You are an honorable all-American franchise with honorable all-American fans doing honorable all-American things, and anyone who dares question you is dishonorable by comparison. Who could argue with a team salutin’ the ol’ troops?

Ninety seconds isn’t nearly enough time to prove a citizen truly cares about their country, nor is it enough time for citizens to properly appreciate a returning veteran who needs more support than a round of courtesy applause. These teams are commodifying their patriotism while also trying to sanctify it."