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View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
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Thread Tools |
11-09-2009, 02:22 PM | #6401 | |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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Quote:
There was definately a surge of positive press for Bush after 9/11, and an uptick of positive press during military operations in Iraq. As for taking the Bush Admin at their word on everything, that's obviously not fair. Bush wasn't saying anything new. "Every nation has to either be with us, or against us. Those who harbor terrorists, or who finance them, are going to pay a price." - Senator Hillary Clinton, September 13, 2001 "My position is very clear: The time has come for decisive action to eliminate the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction." - Senator John Edwards, October 2002 "We must combat an unholy axis of new threats from terrorists, international criminals, and drug traffickers. These 21st century predators feed on technology and the free flow of information... And they will be all the more lethal if weapons of mass destruction fall into their hands." - President Clinton, 1998 "People can quarrel with whether we should have more troops in Afghanistan or internationalize Iraq or whatever, but it is incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted for stocks of biological and chemical weapons." - President Clinton, July 2003 I thought the media went to town on Bush for saying some of these things. But I might not remember correctly, it's been a minute. Perhaps jouranlists have been willing to not contest the President (take the stimulus package as an example). Some things perhaps are off-limits. Even still, that doesn't mean bias doesn't exist. Last edited by Dutch : 11-09-2009 at 02:25 PM. |
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11-09-2009, 02:26 PM | #6402 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Alabama
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Quote:
Before it was "Blame Clinton". Now it's "Blame Bush". I'm not sure how it's amazing in any way or form. |
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11-09-2009, 03:23 PM | #6403 | |||
Stadium Announcer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Burke, VA
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Quote:
Well, it's not a promise per se, but from his 2004 DNC speech: Quote:
And from his victory speech after the Iowa caucuses... Quote:
There's more out there, but you get the idea.
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I don't want the world. I just want your half. |
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11-09-2009, 04:31 PM | #6404 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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He certainly pledged to work together, but he never once promised non-partisan. Even if he did, it's awfully hard to be non-partisan when the other side is looking for your Waterloo.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
11-09-2009, 06:21 PM | #6405 | |
Stadium Announcer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Burke, VA
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Quote:
Okay Flasch. Do me a favor and google "Obama non-partisan" and "Obama end partisan bickering". Regardless of what words Obama specifically used, one of the driving themes of Obama's career, going back to his 2004 speech at the DNC, was supposedly his ability to rise above partisanship. I think what we're seeing is the fact that Obama is in a real position to lead for the first time in his political career, and he's just as divisive as every other executive we've had recently. In that sense, yes, he's failed to deliver what his campaign promised. You can blame Republicans all you'd like, but that's kind of like blaming the other team's defense for not letting you score a touchdown.
__________________
I don't want the world. I just want your half. |
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11-09-2009, 06:43 PM | #6406 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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I agree with the people who said he did campaign on being non-partisan. That was one of the reasons people elected him.
I also think he did try to do that but has learned that it just doesn't work in Washington. One guy can't change decades of bickering over power. He got burned on that and has probably learned his lesson now. |
11-09-2009, 06:44 PM | #6407 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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I am just worried about my parents being sent to death camps, the future mandatory abortions on my unborn child, and the jailtime I'll receive for not buying insurance.
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11-09-2009, 06:52 PM | #6408 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
I think there's a significant difference from working for bi-partisan solutions and being non-partisan. You want to call me out on words, but you can't find any examples of Obama saying he'd be non-partisan. What's Obama supposed to do when the other side has made the tactical decision that any compromise is bad? He has more opposition appointees than any modern president and Republicans are still putting holds on numerous appointments including until recently the Surgeon General. He bent over backwards to find a moderate for his first court appointee and that judge has been refused a vote for nearly 200 days. He agreed to have 40% of the stimulus in GOP demanded tax cuts and he got zero votes for it. He adopted a number of GOP suggestions for the healthcare bill and was still attacked as being a socialist Hitler Mao Stalin who wanted to go back in time and abort the fetus of your grandmother. At some point it's time to say fuck it you guys are unreasonable dicks and get to work passing your agenda.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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11-09-2009, 07:21 PM | #6409 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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I have been siding with the Republicans a lot lately but it is weak to try and nail Obama on his campaign promises. Presidents say whether they need to say to get elected and then do something totally different. Bush Jr. was against nation building and was a compassionate conservative, Bush Sr. said "No new taxes". To steal the phrase of the day they are all populist whores. They are for war in 2002 when Americans are pissed off, against it in 2004, and back for it when Obama decides he wants to keep the military industrial complex going. Why would we expect to believe any campaign promises anymore?
Did Kerry continue doing any of his pledges from the 2004 presidential election when he was a senator from 2005-2008? Is McCain keeping any of his presidential campaign pledges now? I seem to recall McCain saying health care has to be fixed, did he suddenly just now figure out after 20 years in the Senate that the government spends too much! These guys play to a base and then they vote with special interests, it’s really as simple as that. (And I thought I could go the whole time without mentioning it... but it sure would nice to have another party to call them on their bullshit. You can't keep running only against ideas when a legit 3rd party enters the picture) |
11-09-2009, 07:25 PM | #6410 |
Stadium Announcer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Burke, VA
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We don't. At least I don't. But there's a big difference between not believing a campaign theme and refusing to acknowledge that the theme existed.
__________________
I don't want the world. I just want your half. |
11-09-2009, 07:35 PM | #6411 | ||
Stadium Announcer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Burke, VA
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Quote:
I dunno. But then again, I wasn't the one running for president with a theme of bridging the blue state/red state divide. Quote:
And at that point you've failed to change the tenor and tone of Washington... just like every other politician who vowed to make D.C. a better place. I'm not saying it makes Obama the worst person in the world. In fact it's the opposite. At the the end of the day, there's really nothing special about Barack Obama the man. As Panerd said, he's just another politician, even if his campaign promised something different.
__________________
I don't want the world. I just want your half. |
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11-09-2009, 07:43 PM | #6412 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
Yeah and it is actually really sad. I think Obama really beleives in the stuff he promised in the campaign. (Not saying I agree with him but I think he truly in his heart favors gay rights, ending the war on drugs, ending American agression overseas, universal health care, regulating wealthy people's salaries, even changing the tone and role of Washington) Now either the power got to his head (most likely) or something more sinster happened but he is now completely a normal politician, beholden to all that has money in this country. He is no different than Bush or Clinton. I guess we really are all fools for thinking after thousands of years of governments pulling the same shit over and over that somehow it will ever change. (The thing that scares me most is that the day the Libertarian party does somehow pull off the unthinkable they will end up being the same old shit as the rest of them. They ran Bob Barr is their candidate in 2008, not exactly a champion of their social issues!) Last edited by panerd : 11-09-2009 at 07:43 PM. |
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11-09-2009, 08:26 PM | #6413 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
I don't think I've ever argued that Obama is anything but a pragmatic politician. My only point is that the non-partisan or post-partisan crap attributed to him never came out of his mouth. He only offered to try to work with everyone and from my vantage point he tried, but you can't dance the tango by yourself.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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11-09-2009, 10:26 PM | #6414 | ||||
Stadium Announcer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Burke, VA
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Quote:
My only objection is to the bolded statement. From his victory speech: Quote:
Except if you're a "teabagger", apparently. From his speech announcing his candidacy: Quote:
From a speech at the California Democratic Convention in 2007: Quote:
Apparently you can turn the pages backwards as well.
__________________
I don't want the world. I just want your half. |
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11-10-2009, 07:37 AM | #6415 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Quote:
How LONG have many people on both side of the issue on this very board been begging for the Democrats to do exactly that? Yet the lone victory is a lame duck bill that Pelosi gutted to get passed that will never pass again in the House. Some Democrats in the House who supported the last bill have already said they will vote against the bill when the Senate adds many of those provisions back? I'm pretty sure at this point that we'll get a do-nothing bill next summer before elections just to say they passed something, but it'll have absolutely no teeth and very little of what was promised by the Democratic leadership. |
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11-10-2009, 07:41 AM | #6416 |
Coordinator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Not me, I was hoping both sides would come together and work together for the betterment of our country and you and me. You and the GOP would rather "win". [Looking for the Waterloo was a great comment above]
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Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL Last edited by Flasch186 : 11-10-2009 at 07:42 AM. |
11-10-2009, 07:49 AM | #6417 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Quote:
Yes, we need more non-partisan Americans who are solely worried about the greater good such as yourself, Flasch. I'm not sure what I'm trying to 'win'. I just don't want a health care bill that's not good for the country as a whole. If that's winning, then yes, I want exactly that. |
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11-10-2009, 07:53 AM | #6418 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
Then why to you bitch so often about Obama being partisan? If I didn't know you better I'd think you would complain about anything Obama does regardless of what you've said in the past.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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11-10-2009, 07:58 AM | #6419 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
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Quote:
And that's exactly what defeating this bill will do, or at least leave it in better shape than passing it will do. Maybe that's just "a win" to you, but to a lot of us who oppose it, it's a lot more significant than going 1-up in a game of checkers.
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
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11-10-2009, 08:02 AM | #6420 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Quote:
Because he's the one that promised 'change' and 'setting aside our differences'. Being partisan appears to be the STRENGTH of this administration, despite the huge majorities in both sides of Congress that should allow them to do the work needed all on their own if they'd put forth reasonable legislation. I side with Obama on a number of issues. I think it's clear that this is an issue with the policies that I disagree with. |
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11-10-2009, 08:07 AM | #6421 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
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All I can say is pot meet kettle.
The Democrats on the board are mad that their President is not doing what Bush attempted to do when he was President and that was advance their party's agenda. The other side is not interested in bettering the country, they "would rather 'win'". A few points, when Bush was first elected he was tried to fulfill many of his campaign promises. I remember the press being amazed that he was actually trying to do the things he promised (Steel tariff anyone?). Plus, Bush's presidency was in three stages, the pre-9/11 stage was very aimless. The big issue at that point was stem cell research. After 9/11, everything changed. What was he supposed to do, round up the usual suspects? Look at FDR, he ran in 1940 on a platform that promised no foreign wars, meanwhile he did everything he could to get us in the war. Does anyone beat on him for that? Obama may not have used the words "bi-partisan" but his rhetoric was very much along the lines of all of us living under one big umbrella and we could all get along. The problem Obama has, is that he is too much of a politician. He has yet to get up and actually lead the push to advance his agenda. Instead, he has been very guarded and unwilling to risk his reputation on any issue. The problem that Obama and the Democrats have is that they won because they were not the party in power. They did not win because of their agenda. Health care is a great example. There is no large public outcry for it. Much of the public is skeptical of it. That was one of their central tenets in the campaign, and where is the cry for it? However, the Republicans are going to fall a foul of the same sentiment after the mid-term elections where they will make up ground, but incorrectly assume that it was due to their agenda. |
11-10-2009, 08:18 AM | #6422 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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most of the public is skeptical on healthcare? not in the studies i've seen. if the question is phrased in a truthful and non-leading way then most of the public is for healthcare reform
__________________
Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. |
11-10-2009, 08:19 AM | #6423 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Quote:
I wish that the people in Washington opposed it for the reasons you probably do but when some of the leaders 'lie' about the proposals in an effort to steer debate that shows disingenuity. Also when one of the leaders negotiating a bill says he'd vote against it anyways, his very own bill, it rings hollow that theyre not playing checkers. Now for those like you, who Im sure debate the health bill on its own merits than I would respect your opinion eventhough it differs from my own but when people show up at the town halls and cry about the bailouts, death panels, birth certificates it minimizes what you might be trying to get people to pay attention to.
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Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL |
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11-10-2009, 08:21 AM | #6424 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Quote:
+1 Almost every poll Ive seen outside of MBBF's state that a great VAST majority of Americans want change in the current health care system. shoot even the Insurance Companies know that because they have had to 'give in' to the momentum and say that 'they want change to'. then they run their ads opposing change and wrapping it in all sorts of scary propaganda.
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Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL Last edited by Flasch186 : 11-10-2009 at 08:26 AM. |
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11-10-2009, 08:23 AM | #6425 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
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Quote:
They are skeptical of this bill. The problem is that if you ask the question, "Are you for healthcare reform?" or "Do you think the healthcare industry should be cleaned up?" I would venture to say that over 70% of Americans would say yes. The problem is that everyone differs in the details. I am for healthcare reform. However, my belief is that we need to get rid of the insurance companies and put restrictions on how the drug companies advertise. Outside of that, we have a good system. But you will get answers across the spectrum how to clean up the system. EDIT: In no case should the government be in charge of providing care or a care option. Go to any ER after 10 PM and tell me that the poor cannot get healthcare in this country. Last edited by Warhammer : 11-10-2009 at 08:26 AM. |
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11-10-2009, 08:29 AM | #6426 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Quote:
An excellent summation of the situation. Well done. |
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11-10-2009, 08:33 AM | #6427 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Quote:
This new tactic of yours is fantastic. Wrap an ill-conceived argument in a package with a bow on top stating that MBBF thinks the exact opposite and shovel it out to the masses as being legitimate because MBBF disagrees. Genius. Pure genius. |
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11-10-2009, 08:45 AM | #6428 |
Coordinator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Facts are Facts...
unless of course theyre a poll you garner bad info from, like you did in the Election thread OR theyre assumptions and spin, like you did in the Iran thread (BTW did that revolution occur like you said it was?)... or theyre interpretive like you did above and have done repeatedly in this thread ("Looks like","Vast",etc)...
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Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL Last edited by Flasch186 : 11-10-2009 at 08:49 AM. |
11-10-2009, 08:47 AM | #6429 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
Maybe you mistyped, but how can you get rid of insurance companies and offer no government alternative?
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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11-10-2009, 08:50 AM | #6430 | |
High School Varsity
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Quote:
Health Care Reform - Rasmussen Reports™ http://www.gallup.com/poll/124202/No...re-Reform.aspx These are facts and I am not sure 45% is a vast majority.. Last edited by GreenMonster : 11-10-2009 at 08:52 AM. |
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11-10-2009, 08:54 AM | #6431 | ||
Coordinator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Quote:
as pointed out, no bill will be perfect and after swathed in 'death panel', kill autistic children, rationing paint Im sure ANY bill will be hard pressed to get everyone to support it. What I stated above was that a VAST majority of people think a change to the current system is needed....is that not correct? Found it in that article: Quote:
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Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL Last edited by Flasch186 : 11-10-2009 at 08:57 AM. |
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11-10-2009, 08:56 AM | #6432 |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Bahston Mass
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I love how the percentage of people with "no opinion" on whether to vote for the Health Care Bill has gone up from 22% to 33% over the last two months. Way to go, Washington!
__________________
There's no I in Teamocil, at least not where you'd think |
11-10-2009, 09:05 AM | #6433 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
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Quote:
That is rather nice work, isn't it? More seriously though, it isn't lost on me (nor a lot of people who pay attention) that fatigue is one of the more useful weapons in the opposition arsenal. That's true on health care deform, true on a lot of other stuff too. Handy item in the toolbox regardless of which side of an issue you're on really.
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
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11-10-2009, 09:14 AM | #6434 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
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Quote:
Easy, if I didn't have to pay insurance premiums, I would save $700 a month. How many times have I been to the doctor in the last six months, twice? So I would have an extra $4200 in my pocket over that time frame. I could have paid for my two visits and still had a chunk of cash left over. Not to say that with a true free enterprise system, doctor's offices would be encouraged to lower costs for care, while maintaining adequate standards for care. I'll give another example. Over 30 years ago I lost half of my front tooth in an accident. To repair the tooth and fix it, the doctor charged us $25. I remember my mom asking, "No, not for the doctor's visit, how much for the procedure." Answer, $25. Taking into account inflation, etc., that procedure should cost $50 now. Instead, it costs hundreds of dollars. Why? When was the last time you went to a doctor and they did not take blood? It has been several years for me. At first I thought it was great, now I realize that it is just another procedure that the doctor can charge the insurance companies for. The problem is that no one questions it. Why should they? The additional test does not come out of their pocket, it comes out of the insurance company's pocket. Heck, when I go in for a sinus infection and have the symptoms of it, running a fever, congestion, headaches, etc., you don't need to take a blood test to tell you that. Especially, if you are giving me antibiotics anyway! My point is that doctors are not operating in a free market, they have constructed these additional measures that have insulated them from free market forces that would otherwise keep costs in check. Not to mention, what happens if your insurance company takes a bath on their investments, that cost is being passed on to you. What other market or service do we have to get insurance for normal maintenance? Car insurance is for accidents, theft, personal injury, etc. Life insurance is for unexpected death. All of these are unexpected occurrences. Why do we treat the medical industry any different? Why is it a precondition for services, unless you go to the ER? |
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11-10-2009, 09:17 AM | #6435 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: North Carolina
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Quote:
When young lawers/law students start writing appeals, they mostly try the "discuss every possible mistake in the case" strategy on the theory that they can just wear down the appellate court with the long list of mistakes made. And, as they learn, you can wear down the appellate court. Pretty easily in fact. And, being worn down by your brief, the appellate court will then rule against you and affirm the district court. In general, the best appellate strategy is to find the worst thing that happened at trial and discuss it as quickly as possible. It's hard to argue that a mistake was so obvious that it demands correction when it takes you 45 pages to explain that mistake to a judge. Not a 100% rule there, but a pretty good rule of thumb. I agree with Jon that fatigue is an under-rated weapon for those who want to keep the status quo. At some point, people start to wonder why they should care. |
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11-10-2009, 09:19 AM | #6436 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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That may work for the young and healthy, but seems a terrible plan for serious accidents and major illnesses. How do you handle the child with brain cancer or the teenager in an auto accident or the forty year old with a heart attack?
I do think doctors over test, but getting rid of insurance just creates even bigger problems IMO.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers Last edited by JPhillips : 11-10-2009 at 09:42 AM. |
11-10-2009, 09:20 AM | #6437 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
seriously
__________________
Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. |
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11-10-2009, 09:32 AM | #6438 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
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You're right, so you keep medical insurance in the realm of life threatening situations. Heart attacks, cancer, etc., keep insurance for them, but why does your family practioner need to require insurance? Going in to have a baby? Have your insurance for complications, otherwise insurance is not involved. The problem is that for many that do not need it, it has become a requirement for care.
Promote HSAs and remove the incentives for insurance. Let's not forget that insurance companies are also making their profits. That's an extra say 10%. The key is to make the process more transparent to the customer so that we can make informed decisions. Unfortunately, the system is not set up that way. There are laws that could be passed to help, force doctors to advise the price of the treatments (again family practioners) and to advise of the different options and risks involved (which they should be doing anyway). Most car dealers post the popular car care items, oil change, tire rotation, brakes, alignment, etc. Doctors could do the same thing. Checkup, physicals, drug test, etc., could all be posted and people could shop their doctors. The way the system is setup there is no incentive to do it, so there is no incentive for the doctors to run a lean, efficient, business. |
11-10-2009, 09:43 AM | #6439 | |
Resident Alien
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Quote:
Huge, mind-blowing profits when most other companies are struggling. |
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11-10-2009, 09:58 AM | #6440 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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What I don't like about that system is it forces me to be the physician. I'm not in any position to know if a particular test is necessary or not. Do I need an AFP test? Maybe I'll do this one but not the followup six months later. Is this headache really a cause for an MRI? I'm not a trained physician and I'm in no position to make those decisions. I want the best care I can get because my life is on the line. It's a lot different from shopping for a new stereo system.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
11-10-2009, 10:03 AM | #6441 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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i have enough else to think about day-to-day that i don't want to be shopping for doctors or thinking about what treatments i need. that's somebody else's job so that i can do my job.
otherwise i'm going to be sitting around doing that every night instead of relaxing...and thus i'm going to be more stressed and my health is going to get worse... edit: like jphillips said also - i'm not a trained doctor. and even if i'm educated, what about those who are less educated, or where they can't manage to save enough because they're not fiscally responsible enough or circumstances don't allow it.
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Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. Last edited by DaddyTorgo : 11-10-2009 at 10:12 AM. |
11-10-2009, 10:26 AM | #6442 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
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Quote:
That is what your doctor is for. Seriously, how is it any different than getting your car checked? Are you familiar with all the systems in a car? Probably not, or to your DT's point, what about the next guy who isn't? Are you saying that everytime you get a headache, you think you need an MRI? Your doctor is there to say, look, this isn't serious because your other vitals don't support it, but if you want to be sure, we can give you an MRI. Or based upon family history, you should get it checked. My point is that you have the choice. You have the choice of where to go get it, etc. |
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11-10-2009, 10:34 AM | #6443 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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If I skip out on my car maintainence it will hurt my car, but I'll still live. If I cut corners on my maintainence it could cost me my life. The margin for error is significantly different when talking about your life.
If insurance was taken away a lot of people wouldn't have the money to afford an MRI. I think the average cost is well over 1000$. How do people living paycheck to paycheck pay for each individual test? At what point does the catastrophic insurance kick in? As it currently stands a huge number of personal bankruptcies have a significant medical expense component. How would this not exacerbate that problem?
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
11-10-2009, 10:35 AM | #6444 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
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Quote:
So when you first moved into an area, you looked at the list of doctors and went to one? Heck, you could ask your friends who they go to and go there. The insurance company's job is not to tell you who the best doctor is, all they tell you is who they have arrangements with. You're saying that you would rather have the government/insurance company step in and tell you where to go and who to see rather than determining that yourself? If that is the case, then we are going to have to agree to disagree because I want to determine who I can and cannot see, and make my own decision about who is the right caregiver for me. To your last point, are we supposed to bail out companies who were not fiscally responsible enough to make good judgements? Should we as a country bail out people not responsible enough to take care of themselves? Just because someone makes bad decisions does not mean you or I should have to pay for it. |
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11-10-2009, 10:46 AM | #6445 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
You've moved to a different point. No one is saying that there shouldn't be freedom in selecting a physician. The problem as you originally stated it was that individual procedures should be questioned by the consumer. That's what I find troubling. I choose a doctor because I trust their judgment. When they tell me what procedures I need I'm either going to do what was suggested or find a new physician. I can't/don't want to figure out what procedures I should get based on comparative shopping. Your second point leaves out the class of people that through no fault of their own can't afford their medical care. You may be comfortable withholding care from the irresponsible, but what about the merely unfortunate?
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11-10-2009, 10:46 AM | #6446 |
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The Dirty
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The reason your doctor takes blood everytime is to check for other issues other than one you are having. It is also so you don't sue them if you visit them and they fail to diagnose some hidden illness. I know you of all people would never bring a frivolous lawsuit like the doctor missing you had LDL levels of 250 when you went in for a cold, but there are plenty of people who will.
Also, HSA's blow, the hospitals will not charge less because insurance companies don't exist, and there are way to many potential procedures/illnesses for you to just cherry pick which ones should have insurance or not.
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11-10-2009, 10:48 AM | #6447 | ||
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
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Agreed. But you plan for car maintenance, at least I do. If I needed to, I would also plan for medical expenses as well. Heck, my father had colon cancer, due to his and some other members of my family's medical history, I am having a colonoscope first part of next year. I fail to see a major difference between the two as far as planning for it is concerned. Get a physical once a year, you put that into your budget same as anything else. Quote:
MRI costs would go down. If an insurance company will allow X amount for the MRI, you can be sure that the doctors are charging X for that MRI. When the next year rolls around, they adjust X for inflation if possible. If MRI centers have to compete for business, costs/prices will come down. Heck, how much does an X-ray cost now days? Not much. How do people living paycheck to paycheck pay for the test now? I can tell you that most hospitals, at least here, will allow you to pay any amount on a bill, as long as it is something (minimum might be $10 have to check with the wife). So they will work with you on getting that amount paid. But, I would maintain that costs would come down as labs have to compete for business. What happens now? Your doctor instructs you to go to lab X (you need to verify they are covered by your insurance or you are SOL), why? Typically because they have an arrangement or partially own the lab. So they are fully incentivized to do extra unneeded tests to line their pockets. I mean do you know where you would need to go have the tests done? No, but you can find out the places pretty quickly by looking them up online. Plus, shopping for the service, its no different than shopping various service shops for who will charge you the least to put a new transmission in your car. What I find amusing is that people will go to the ends of the earth to find out where they can pay 5 cents less per gallon of gas, or where game X is being sold for $5 or $10 less, but when it comes to YOUR LIFE, we can't take the time to do so. |
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11-10-2009, 10:49 AM | #6448 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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no...i don't want the insurance company to tell me who to go to. i'll use doctor-ranking websites for that or referrals from people i know. i didn't mean to imply that. i meant with regard to what tests i absolutely NEED or what procedures I have available to me. I think there'd be no discernable difference in the number of unnecessary procedures done, as people would choose to have things done they didn't need because they didn't know better or were talked into it by people out to make a buck. newsflash - we're already paying for people who can't afford it. a significant percentage of your insurance premiums go to pay for people who cannot afford regular care who use the public ER's as their primary care physicians because those public ER's have a mandate to "turn nobody away." And call me nieve and an idealist, but I do actually believe with every fiber of my being that when it comes to healthcare (as opposed to profit-making by companies) we do have a moral imperative to provide healthcare to all Americans as a fundamental birthright. It's part of Winthrop's whole "we shall be as a city upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us" sermon. The way that we treat the most impovrished and worst-off or neediest among us says a great deal about our societal values and morals - and frankly the idea of leaving people to go bankrupt or die because of lack of affordable medical treatment doesn't say anything positive about us as a society. It's something that pretty much every other developed country has recognized and implemented.
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11-10-2009, 10:53 AM | #6449 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
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No, I was addressing the issues that DT brought up. Not a different point, you would have to go to his post for that. My point is that you don't shop pricing every single time. When you are new to an area, you would shop for a doctor's services. You might from time to time check prices for a checkup if you think you are being charged too much. For a major decision, you get a second opinion. Just as you would with a car, or current medical practice. My point with the unfortunate is that they are getting care anyway! I have never, never seen anyone who could not pay for services get turned away. Go to any major hospital's ER after say 8PM, and see who is there. You'll have the 2-3 people with actual emergencies, the rest are the poor who have the cold or the flu. They do get medical care. |
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11-10-2009, 10:54 AM | #6450 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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and we pay for it.
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