I Have Been Saved

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

(sarcastic)
Thats fantastic - taking that literally it means there's a planet made out of a donut with strawberry jam on it - I thought about it last night and haven't seen it in real-life, but because I thought it, its 'obvious' it existed at some point.
(end sarcastic)

Is it just me or is thats on the strangest possible philisophical argument I've ever heard - I thought of something therefore it must exist?

Most creations which people come up with via. their imagination may have their entire basis in fact but are skews of things they've seen/heard and not at all accurate reflections.

As such the fact people have an 'idea' of a perfect being isn't at all impossible - it could be based partially on the fact that as a very young child you're totally dependant on your parents and can't see any limitation to their 'powers' which are at that point far beyond what you know.

(taking this further)

The idea of having a perfect being protecting your future is very appealing and I could see why having experienced that sensation as a young infant it'd be something that would be continually appealing to people even into adult life.

And you basically hit the flaw with his philosophical argument. I was trying to be consistent. He was basically best known philosophically for saying that any real object can be described by showing its XYZ coordinates (for simplicity sake).

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

The only thing I will concede is that there has been no DIRECT evidence of extraterrestrial life. I've only mentioned the PROBABILITY of the existence of extraterrestrial life (from one celled organisms to something we have never seen) based on scientific evidence.

Speaking of volcanoes...there has been life discovered in undersea volcanic vents. Underwater Clues to Alien Life :: Astrobiology Magazine - earth science - evolution distribution Origin of life universe - life beyond :: Astrobiology is study of earth science evolution distribution Origin of life in universe terrestrial However, I do agree that life inside magma or lava would be pretty close to impossible of living.

I would agree that Descartes has some very interesting viewpoints regarding god and science, which at times, to me at least, seem contradictory, but that's because I have an extra, almost, four hundred years of scientific advancement and discoveries to reference than what he had in his day.

And the fact that undersea life in large part depends upon hydrogen sulfide (?) backs up my point that we are looking for life in incorrect ways.

I knew as soon I submitted the volcano bit, someone would bring up undersea vents...

I always liked Descartes. Sure he had some issues, but there is a reason why he is considered the "Father of Modern Philosophy." My preference is for Kant or Kirkegaard though.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

And the fact that undersea life in large part depends upon hydrogen sulfide (?) backs up my point that we are looking for life in incorrect ways.

I knew as soon I submitted the volcano bit, someone would bring up undersea vents...

I always liked Descartes. Sure he had some issues, but there is a reason why he is considered the "Father of Modern Philosophy." My preference is for Kant or Kirkegaard though.

This was the part of the article that I keyed in on: "Scientists studying life around "black smokers" deep below the Pacific Ocean have discovered unique organisms that can survive in one of the harshest environments on Earth. The habitat may also provide information about how life could survive on other locations in the solar system."

So for whatever that is worth. Just curious though, how do you think scientists should be looking? There's SETI for example.

I think if we did find life beyond earth, to me it would add to the granduer that the universe already is.

Kirkegaard I have heard of before. Kant, I have not though, weird. Philosophy is definitely not one of my strong suits though.

[tarcone]

I took a break. I have only gotten through about 2 1/2 pages. But will post now and probably again.
In my original post, I should have said I sinned and didnt believe in the word. We are all sinners and will pay for our sins if we dont follow the Lords word. I chose Heaven over Hell and now realize God killed his Son to absolve me of my sins. This is powerful.
As for the people that cant stand people talking about Jesus with them, why? Are you afraid to face your sinful ways? Do you think evil is better to follow? I did. I thought earthly pleasures were what is was all about. How wrong was I? Heaven offers pleasures that are a million times better then anything offered to us now.
I have proof of God. It is in a book called the Bible. Prove to me this is false. I bet you cant. And with so many witnesses, how can it be wrong? In a court of law if you presented this many witnesses, I imagine the Bible would be considered the truth.
But Sin happened when Adam and Eve ate the proverbial apple. They were expelled from paradise. Whis is where we are now.
Another thought for the "non-believers". What if there is a Heaven? Are you really willing to chance eternity in Hell? Im not. I choose Eternal paradise. And if I can help others find the word. Then That only makes me a happier person.
I pray you all find a relationship with Jesus Christ. The world would be a much happier place.

[Noop]

This should be fun....

[tarcone]

As for SCgoatman, I forgive. I understand. Belief is a powerful thing. If you dont believe, you attack. It is demons presenting themselves. It didnt harm me and only makes me pray for him and hope that he someday finds Jesus Christ.And if he is willing I will discuss it with him.

[JediKooter]

But what brought you to this epiphany? Did you wake up one day and something clicked or was it more in line with some sort of life changing event or personal problems? None of which you have to divulge any personal info, just curious as I am sure many others are as well.

[lungs]

All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
The Beneficent, the Merciful.
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
Keep us on the right path.
The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I took a break. I have only gotten through about 2 1/2 pages. But will post now and probably again.
In my original post, I should have said I sinned and didnt believe in the word. We are all sinners and will pay for our sins if we dont follow the Lords word. I chose Heaven over Hell and now realize God killed his Son to absolve me of my sins. This is powerful.
As for the people that cant stand people talking about Jesus with them, why? Are you afraid to face your sinful ways? Do you think evil is better to follow? I did. I thought earthly pleasures were what is was all about. How wrong was I? Heaven offers pleasures that are a million times better then anything offered to us now.
I have proof of God. It is in a book called the Bible. Prove to me this is false. I bet you cant. And with so many witnesses, how can it be wrong? In a court of law if you presented this many witnesses, I imagine the Bible would be considered the truth.
But Sin happened when Adam and Eve ate the proverbial apple. They were expelled from paradise. Whis is where we are now.
Another thought for the "non-believers". What if there is a Heaven? Are you really willing to chance eternity in Hell? Im not. I choose Eternal paradise. And if I can help others find the word. Then That only makes me a happier person.
I pray you all find a relationship with Jesus Christ. The world would be a much happier place.

I pray for your post formatting.

[Scoobz0202]

Jesus Christ...

[DaddyTorgo]

oh wow

in before the fireworks

[DaddyTorgo]

speaking for myself tarcone - i don't "fear" discussions of faith or god or whatever with believers. I frankly just find it a waste of fucking time. because they're going to believe what they believe (IMO irrationally, but whatever) and I'm going to believe what I believe, and there really isn't any common ground for us to meet on. So it's a waste of time.

[Marc Vaughan]

Hey someone just resurrected this thread .... 'tis a miracle surely

(ok I'll get my coat )

[RedKingGold]

tarcone does not speak for all who follow the Christian faith.

That is all.

[Anthony]

why should there be fireworks? its just one man's beliefs and opinions. i think it's very obvious no one is going to test his beliefs, just as he isn't going to make believers out of atheists. i admire his convictions, however based on folly and puppetry they may be. who is anyone to mock anyone else's opinions? its all based on faith. between atheists and devout religious followers - in the end someone is gonna be right. the religious followers are willing to forego drinking and whoring in the hopes that the afterlife will be worthwhile. the atheists (or non-believers like myself) are perfectly fine with living for today and enjoying the fruits that life has to offer and are ok with rolling the dice that this is all there is and nothing more after we die.

anyway, this is nothing that needs to be huge drama. after 12 pages i think we've said all there is to say on this topic.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Anthony

why should there be fireworks? its just one man's beliefs and opinions. i think it's very obvious no one is going to test his beliefs, just as he isn't going to make believers out of atheists. i admire his convictions, however based on folly and puppetry they may be. who is anyone to mock anyone else's opinions? its all based on faith. between atheists and devout religious followers - in the end someone is gonna be right. the religious followers are willing to forego drinking and whoring in the hopes that the afterlife will be worthwhile. the atheists (or non-believers like myself) are perfectly fine with living for today and enjoying the fruits that life has to offer and are ok with rolling the dice that this is all there is and nothing more after we die.

anyway, this is nothing that needs to be huge drama. after 12 pages i think we've said all there is to say on this topic.

For this post, I would fix your PC (if I knew how to)

[Groundhog]

Glad to know you're a... whoops.

OK, I didn't expect a reprise of this thread, but here we are.

Originally Posted by tarcone

As for the people that cant stand people talking about Jesus with them, why? Are you afraid to face your sinful ways? Do you think evil is better to follow?

No. I just don't believe in Jesus or God, and I get a little tired of people trying to prove otherwise with the same weak arguments.

I have proof of God. It is in a book called the Bible. Prove to me this is false. I bet you cant. And with so many witnesses, how can it be wrong? In a court of law if you presented this many witnesses, I imagine the Bible would be considered the truth.

Using your same evidence I can prove all the major religions are true, and I can also prove that Pinnochio exists, Pennywise was a freak-ass alien clown, and that Cthulhu is a half-octopus/half-god type thing that owns all our asses.

Give me contemporary testimony that the legendary NT was correct, not using the NT. It doesn't exist. I addressed this a few pages back. If it did exist, I'd have to re-evaluate my stance on Christianity.

Another thought for the "non-believers". What if there is a Heaven? Are you really willing to chance eternity in Hell? Im not. I choose Eternal paradise.

Blackmail. Not a reason to believe. The other religions have their own versions of Hell, too.

I pray you all find a relationship with Jesus Christ.

I'll ask my Jewish friends to pray that you see the light, and discover that Jesus was just a man.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Anthony

anyway, this is nothing that needs to be huge drama. after 12 pages i think we've said all there is to say on this topic.

You would think so.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Another thought for the "non-believers". What if there is a Heaven? Are you really willing to chance eternity in Hell?

Well, what kind of odds are you offering, Pascal?

[Anthony]

its moments like this when the following exchange from "Shallow Hal" is most appropriate:

Hal: "OK, let me ask you a question. Who's the all-time love of your life?"


Mauricio: "Wonder Woman."


Hal: "OK. Let's say Wonder Woman falls in love with you, right? Would it bother you if the rest of the world didn't find her attractive?"


Mauricio: "Not at all. Cos l know they'd be wrong."


Hal: "That's what l had with Rosemary! I saw a knockout! l don't care what anybody else saw!"

let tarcone and other religious minded people believe what they want. it makes them happy. no need to shit all over it. even if its a waste of their time and they could be having more fun living their lives with their cock in one hand and a bottle of moonshine in the other. i know this sounds all kumbaya, but just saying we've discussed this thoroughly after 12 pages, tarcone coming in at the 11th hour and reaffirming his beliefs shouldn't open up any floodgates.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Anthony

the religious followers are willing to forego drinking and whoring in the hopes that the afterlife will be worthwhile. the atheists (or non-believers like myself) are perfectly fine with living for today and enjoying the fruits that life has to offer and are ok with rolling the dice that this is all there is and nothing more after we die.

No, that's not right at all. Most believers drink and whore just as much as us unholy atheists in my experience.

We non-believers don't need, want, or appreciate a book telling us how to act and what to believe.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Anthony

its moments like this when the following exchange from "Shallow Hal" is most appropriate:




let tarcone and other religious minded people believe what they want. it makes them happy. no need to shit all over it. even if its a waste of their time and they could be having more fun living their lives with their cocks in one hand and a bottle of moonshine in the other. i know this sounds all kumbaya, but just saying we've discussed this thoroughly after 12 pages, tarcone coming in at the 11th hour and reaffirming his beliefs shouldn't open up any floodgates.

if it's been 12 pages is it actually the 11th hour? seems like it should be the 12th hour or something

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by KWhit

No, that's not right at all. Most believers drink and whore just as much as us unholy atheists in my experience.

We non-believers don't need, want, or appreciate a book telling us how to act and what to believe.

oh certainly, i agree with you. i would think tarcone falls under the heading of a somewhat "extremist", and i mean that in a non-derogatory way. there's your go to church 2 times a year believers, the goes to church every sunday believers, and then you got the mother of all believers - the ones who go without earthly pleasures and cross their fingers they'll be the first ones let through the Gates if there ever is a Judgement Day.

[Groundhog]

Or:

Hal: "OK, let me ask you a question. Who's the all-time love of your life?"


Mauricio: "Wonder Woman."


Hal: "OK. Let's say Wonder Woman falls in love with you, right? Would it bother you if the rest ofthe world didn't find her attractive?"


Mauricio: "Yes. I would tell them all that they are wrong, and that she is in fact the most beautiful woman in the world, and I would continue to try and get them to think think so. Over and over again."


Hal:" Glad to know your a complete fucking retard."

[CU Tiger]

When HA is the moderate voice, what does that say for the rest of us....Oh my

[Anthony]

hey, common sense is common sense. i just feel bad for people like tarcone who get all happy cuz they have a new shiny toy so everyone else having fun playing in the dirt with rocks and twigs don't want tarcone to have fun with his toy so they take it and shit on it.

misery loves company. i think my options are bleak - there is no God so i spend the next 100 years decomposing into dust, or there is a God and i'm fucked and the most i can hope for i get cut some slack and i get to lounge around in purgatory. if there is a Heaven its not likely to be in my cards. that having been said i'm not gonna rain on anyone's parade. there's so many other things to make fun of, literally. there's no winning in this arguement for either side. its a much better use of time for everyone who is a non-believer to just go back to the $3.7million virgin thread and have at it.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Anthony

its a much better use of time for everyone who is a non-believer to just go back to the $3.7million virgin thread and have at it.

Yes. Now this is a topic I need closure on.

[tarcone]

I think my epiphany wasnt a one moment experience. I went to church. Hated it. So boring and getting preached at, It was no fun.
I started discussing religious topics with my father-in-law. I was agnostic. I thought there was a higher power, felt that spirits lived all around us, etc.. But something changed and my father-in-law helped me see the light. It was and is amazing. My wife prayed for me for years, she was led to a Lutheran church. It is very down to Earth. The pastor is awesome. I was saved.

Did it come from a bad situation? Not at all. In fact, I have had many run-ins with the law and have a chronis disease (diabetes) and have had it for 21 years. These things didnt drive me to Jesus.

As for the blackmail of the threat of Heaven or Hell, take it for what you will. I choose to believe that Heaven is where I want to go. And where does it say there is a Heaven? In the Word. That is the Truth. I dont mean to come across as "preach-y". But its what I believe.

Im sure I sound "preach-y" but thats okay. If one of you finds Jesus because of this thread, that is outstanding. Jesus wants us all to be missionaries. Not to take credit, but still help everyone. Maybe this thread will do that.

This has been a great discussion. I have enjoyed it immensely. I am still learning a lot and reading Craigsca and RKG, makes me appreciate their wisdom. Awesome.

I hope everyone finds peace and happiness.

[Anthony]

i found peace and happiness.

its located between my wife's legs or the bottom of a scotch bottle.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I pray for your post formatting.

And it has been answered. Do you believe now?

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

tarcone does not speak for all who follow the Christian faith.

That is all.

Im not sure I understand this post. Elaborate please.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I think my epiphany wasnt a one moment experience. I went to church. Hated it. So boring and getting preached at, It was no fun.
I started discussing religious topics with my father-in-law. I was agnostic. I thought there was a higher power, felt that spirits lived all around us, etc.. But something changed and my father-in-law helped me see the light. It was and is amazing. My wife prayed for me for years, she was led to a Lutheran church. It is very down to Earth. The pastor is awesome. I was saved.

Did it come from a bad situation? Not at all. In fact, I have had many run-ins with the law and have a chronis disease (diabetes) and have had it for 21 years. These things didnt drive me to Jesus.

As for the blackmail of the threat of Heaven or Hell, take it for what you will. I choose to believe that Heaven is where I want to go. And where does it say there is a Heaven? In the Word. That is the Truth. I dont mean to come across as "preach-y". But its what I believe.

Im sure I sound "preach-y" but thats okay. If one of you finds Jesus because of this thread, that is outstanding. Jesus wants us all to be missionaries. Not to take credit, but still help everyone. Maybe this thread will do that.

This has been a great discussion. I have enjoyed it immensely. I am still learning a lot and reading Craigsca and RKG, makes me appreciate their wisdom. Awesome.

I hope everyone finds peace and happiness.

Now for ME, the bolded part is the real problem. I think its fantastic that Tarcone has found something he believes really helps his life and makes his life better. Thats wonderful and I'm glad for him.

HOWEVER, the instant it goes beyond HIM and he becomes that "missionary" that HE believes god wants him to be, then he crosses the line into pushing religion on others.

Just as tarcone found god in his OWN way, everyone in life should be allowed to do the same. His way isn't my way or RKG's way or ANYONE else's way. Its his and his alone, like a fingerprint it is that unique.

I'm happy for you Tarcone, but I'll be happier still if you keep yer happiness to yourself

Good luck with your new found beliefs friend. I wish you the best with them.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Im not sure I understand this post. Elaborate please.

He's saying he doesn't believe what you're spewing.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

He's saying he doesn't believe what you're spewing.

I disagree. I think it's more in line of being an extroverted or an introverted (i.e., keep it to yourself) believer.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Heaven offers pleasures that are a million times better then anything offered to us now.

I have proof of God. It is in a book called the Bible. Prove to me this is false. I bet you cant.

What if there is a Heaven? Are you really willing to chance eternity in Hell? Im not. I choose Eternal paradise.

The world would be a much happier place.

I like your emotion. I however think emotion without reason is, at the very least, immature. Emotion with reason is passion, and with passion you can change the world into a much happier place.

Paul's reason and rhetoric in Romans, arguing salvation is through faith and available to everyone (Jew and Gentile), probably did more to make Christianity grow in those early days than anything else.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Anthony

i found peace and happiness.

its located between my wife's legs or the bottom of a scotch bottle.

this thread will be even more awesome in 5 years after HA becomes a bord again christian.

[lighthousekeeper]

tarcone: could you elaborate on what kinds of extreme whoring you were referencing in post #1? thx

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

this thread will be even more awesome in 5 years after HA becomes a bord again christian.

Freudian slip?

[Recoil]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I took a break. I have only gotten through about 2 1/2 pages. But will post now and probably again.
In my original post, I should have said I sinned and didnt believe in the word. We are all sinners and will pay for our sins if we dont follow the Lords word. I chose Heaven over Hell and now realize God killed his Son to absolve me of my sins. This is powerful.
As for the people that cant stand people talking about Jesus with them, why? Are you afraid to face your sinful ways? Do you think evil is better to follow? I did. I thought earthly pleasures were what is was all about. How wrong was I? Heaven offers pleasures that are a million times better then anything offered to us now.
I have proof of God. It is in a book called the Bible. Prove to me this is false. I bet you cant. And with so many witnesses, how can it be wrong? In a court of law if you presented this many witnesses, I imagine the Bible would be considered the truth.
But Sin happened when Adam and Eve ate the proverbial apple. They were expelled from paradise. Whis is where we are now.
Another thought for the "non-believers". What if there is a Heaven? Are you really willing to chance eternity in Hell? Im not. I choose Eternal paradise. And if I can help others find the word. Then That only makes me a happier person.
I pray you all find a relationship with Jesus Christ. The world would be a much happier place.

[Neuqua]

Originally Posted by Anthony

i found peace and happiness.

its located between my wife's legs or the bottom of a scotch bottle.

I lol'ed.

[JeeberD]

Can I go ahead and lock this shit already? Christ..n

[sabotai]

I don't know, cam you?

[Scoobz0202]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

I lol'ed.

+1

[revrew]

Oh, the stuff I miss when I'm not around very often. I really don't have time to read through this whole thread, but I praise God for you, tarcone. Welcome to the family.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Can I go ahead and lock this shit already? Christ..n

I dunno Jeebs, the inane rhetoric has only flown in a few posts, for the most part there has been sincere discussion and a general happiness for tarcone's new found philosophy.

Is he right? Is he wrong? who knows. Thats pretty much why I avoid the whole religion scene. They don't know either, but they'll hang tough to that hope. And hope when used and guided by reason, is an amazing thing.

Lets hope, that tarcone uses reason with his.

[DrAFTjunkie]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

+1

+2

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Anthony

its moments like this when the following exchange from "Shallow Hal" is most appropriate:




let tarcone and other religious minded people believe what they want. it makes them happy. no need to shit all over it. even if its a waste of their time and they could be having more fun living their lives with their cock in one hand and a bottle of moonshine in the other. i know this sounds all kumbaya, but just saying we've discussed this thoroughly after 12 pages, tarcone coming in at the 11th hour and reaffirming his beliefs shouldn't open up any floodgates.

You know, that Shallow Hal quote and this whole discussion brings me to a somewhat related philosophical question:

Is it better to believe in and be happy with an illusion or is it better to know the reality of a situation and be miserable?

Hmm... that makes me want to expand the drama unit I'm doing to include Henrik Ibsen's The Wild Duck.

[Neon_Chaos]

What if there is a Heaven? Are you really willing to chance eternity in Hell? Im not. I choose Eternal paradise.

To paraphrase Bill Maher:

If people are being good just to save their butts, "Oh, they might be right, there might a be a heaven and a hell, and I just want to double down here and make sure that when I get to the pearly gates that St. Peter doesn't tell me 'Sorry dude, you followed the wrong religion, Enjoy hell, buh-bye'", then that really isn't a good reason to follow a religion.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Is it better to believe in and be happy with an illusion or is it better to know the reality of a situation and be miserable?

It depends on the person. I personally prefer to know the reality of any situation, even if it were to make me miserable (which certainly isn't how I feel about the topic of religion). I guess ignorance might be bliss to a lot of folks, but not me.

[Icy]

I have respect for most of believers that posted here, RKG is the first on that comes to mind, that have showed intelligence and explained their reasons to believe, showed respect when arguing etc.

On the other hand, Tarcone, i'm sorry to say this and hope you won't get offended, but you sound exactly like somebody that got brainwashed and just repeat the nonsense that was told to them to say, i have seen skinheads talking with the same passion about their nazi believes, not even understanding what they were saying, it was just pushed into their brains and they repeat it like a talking bird.

I guess that is why RKG said that not all believers are like you, because are those like you who make us non believers to lose even more respect for you. If you want to spread God's message in the XXI Century, try to adapt his message to current days, use your brain and use your own words, it will sound way more natural that just repeating another person outdated words.

I'm happy for you, you found something that made you to change your life, but please do not believe everything exactly as it was written in (or dubiously translated from) the Bible, use your brain, take the good message from the Bible, that is certainly there both for believers and non believers, but don't become a religion zombie, if a heaven existed, i doubt zombies would be welcome there.

As Neon_Chaos said, if your reason to believe is the fear to burn in hell or to be saved from your prior sinful life, then you have a lot to learn about your new discovered religion, as you got the message the wrong way.