2007 MLB Playoffs Thread

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Its nice to see personality in pro sports. Especially baseball since everything is TRADITION, TRADITION, TRADITION, respect the game, ect.

Baseball needs more guys like Manny.

No. Having personality doesn't mean that it comes at the expense of class and respectfullness.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Logan, you may want to retract point B.

Or go back to dissecting each and every word of the Indians unbearably long slogan, that was worthwhile.

...says the guy who finds the one poster who brings up the fans, while the rest of us were talking about the celebration of the guys on the field.

Don't be pissed at me just because your people can't form a logical sentence.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

No. Having personality doesn't mean that it comes at the expense of class and respectfullness.

His job is to entertain. I like him. Wish more people were like him.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dime

I'm no tv ratings guru, but I don't know that those ratings are all that bad when you consider that not only was this series on TBS (some basic cable packages don't even have TBS), but it had two west coast teams and some late start times.

There probably are still a few scattered systems missing, but on the whole the numbers are actually pretty close to all the other major cable networks.

As of Jan 07, TBS was available in an estimated 91.7 million homes.
ESPN & CNN were in 92.3 million, USA was in 92.0 million, A&E in 91.8 million.

On the bright side for TBS (and I'm surprised they didn't try to spin it this way more than they did) is that Games 1 & 3 of the Ari-Col series were the 4th & 6th most watched shows on cable for the week, trailing only MNF, Game 4 of NYY-CLE, and a couple of Friday night shows on Disney.

And they actually hold up pretty well compared in isolation to last night's numbers for BOS-CLE which finished last among the big four broadcast networks, posting a number about like what American Dad did on Sunday night.

But still, the difference in total viewers for a single show on cable vs broadcast is sometimes just astonishing, even to me & I deal with this stuff regularly.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Its nice to see personality in pro sports.

I don't know if it's always "nice" ... but I sure saw an example of how important it is over the weekend.

Sitting in a restaurant on Saturday night, one TV showing baseball with the other 7 or 8 showing college football (it's Athens, GA, whaddya expect) but when Manny came up damned if the whole room didn't turn their attention to his AB. I actually had to turn around to see what everybody was looking at all of a sudden, it was that obvious a shift in attention. His AB ends and everybody goes back to their conversation/football game. It was the damndest thing I'd seen in public like that in a while.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

No. Having personality doesn't mean that it comes at the expense of class and respectfullness.

You know Bucc, there's nothing quite like old "fans" carping about "respect" - Manny was excited. Yeah, it wasn't the smartest move in the world, but the whole "classless" and what not is more than a little self-righteous, and a little too much of "back in my day."

[dime]

Originally Posted by Atocep

His job is to entertain. I like him. Wish more people were like him.

not really. his job is to hit. if the red sox wanted their players to be "entertaining", they'd have jerry seinfeld and jim carrey playing middle infield.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by dime

not really. his job is to hit. if the red sox wanted their players to be "entertaining", they'd have jerry seinfeld and jim carrey playing middle infield.

I'll let JohnIMG's post refute this. Travis Hafner doesn't get the same attention.

[dime]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I'll let JohnIMG's post refute this. Travis Hafner doesn't get the same attention.

uh, that's because Ramirez is one of the best right-handed hitters of all time.

his hitting is entertaining, his grandstanding is not. well, it's not entertaining to me.

the "look at me!!!" routine that some people need to put on has never impressed me in sports or any other aspect of life, but evidently some folks admire it. to each his own.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

You know Bucc, there's nothing quite like old "fans" carping about "respect" - Manny was excited. Yeah, it wasn't the smartest move in the world, but the whole "classless" and what not is more than a little self-righteous, and a little too much of "back in my day."

There are a lot of players today, including those still in the playoffs, that don't act like they're clowns in a circus. There were classless players "back then" as well so that shit don't stick.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dime

uh, that's because Ramirez is one of the best right-handed hitters of all time. his hitting is entertaining, his grandstanding is not. well, not to me anyway... the "look at me!!!" routine has never impressed me but evidently some folks are in awe of it. to each his own.

Trust me, there was nothing in the reaction (anecdotal though it may be) that indicated that it was about him being a great hitter, at least not in & of itself.
I never saw Tony Gwynn get that sort of reaction. It was all about entertainment (or the potential for it), as they immediately went back to what they were doing & couldn't have cared less about the game itself (with the exception of a group of about 5 or 6 that were all wearing either Red Sox or Yankees gear).

Welcome to Hollywood I guess, or something like that.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by dime

uh, that's because Ramirez is one of the best right-handed hitters of all time.

his hitting is entertaining, his grandstanding is not. well, it's not entertaining to me.

the "look at me!!!" routine that some people need to put on has never impressed me in sports or any other aspect of life, but evidently some folks are in awe of it. to each his own.

What is the difference between standing at home plate and watching a homer and a pitcher pumping his fist after a strikeout?

There's none. The only difference we've been told our whole lives that you shouldn't stand at homeplate and watch your homer because its disrespectful.

If every player were like Manny it'd be annoying as hell, but in an era where sports is business and everyone is so image conscious its nice to see someone playing the game the way they want to.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Trust me, there was nothing in the reaction (anecdotal though it may be) that indicated that it was about him being a great hitter, at least not in & of itself.
I never saw Tony Gwynn get that sort of reaction. It was all about entertainment (or the potential for it), as they immediately went back to what they were doing & couldn't have cared less about the game itself (with the exception of a group of about 5 or 6 that were all wearing either Red Sox or Yankees gear).

Welcome to Hollywood I guess, or something like that.

You were in the wrong part of the country. I traveled 100 miles to go see Tony play and those in the SD area would hang on to his every move. I really don't care or give any credibility to what American Idol- or Britney Spears-obsessed TV zombies desire.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Atocep

What is the difference between standing at home plate and watching a homer and a pitcher pumping his fist after a strikeout?

There's none. The only difference we've been told our whole lives that you shouldn't stand at homeplate and watch your homer because its disrespectful.

If every player were like Manny it'd be annoying as hell, but in an era where sports is business and everyone is so image conscious its nice to see someone playing the game the way they want to.

What if for some reason a incoming breeze catches the ball and it hits the wall? Manny would still be standing at home plate flicking his locks instead of hustling around second. That's the difference.

[molson]

Some people would prefer that all baseball players act the same, not bring attention to themselves, ect. What a horribly boring league that would be.

There's nobody quite like Manny. He decided long ago that he wasn't going to have any relationship with the media. He was going to do his own thing.

Obnoxious, immature - I won't argue that he's not. But thank god there's at least a handful of players who aren't so scared of the media that they're willing to be themselves.

As for the series - extremely disappointing so far as a Red Sox fan, but with Beckett pitching a game 5, you expect a win. Then you need to manage 2 at Fenway. They've done it before.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

What if for some reason a incoming breeze catches the ball and it hits the wall? Manny would still be standing at home plate flicking his locks instead of hustling around second. That's the difference.

So what should we do? Lock him in jail or something? We gotta keep things in perspective.

It's just Manny being Manny. Hate it or love it.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

Obnoxious, immature - I won't argue that he's not. But thank god there's at least a handful of players who aren't so scared of the media that they're willing to be themselves.

Where is this love for Barry Bonds?

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by molson

Some people would prefer that all baseball players act the same, not bring attention to themselves, ect. What a horribly boring league that would be.

There's nobody quite like Manny. He decided long ago that he wasn't going to have any relationship with the media. He was going to do his own thing.

Obnoxious, immature - I won't argue that he's not. But thank god there's at least a handful of players who aren't so scared of the media that they're willing to be themselves.

As for the series - extremely disappointing so far as a Red Sox fan, but with Beckett pitching a game 5, you expect a win. Then you need to manage 2 at Fenway. They've done it before.

The Sox hold significant rooting interest for me after living there (Giants will always be my true love), and I love Manny. I don't want a league full of Mark Grace's, Cal Ripken's Jr's, and HTWG's - I love guys like Manny, who have some spirit, and seem to be actually enjoying the game. With you all the way.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Where is this love for Barry Bonds?

Ooh - Pick me!

I love Bonds. My greatest regret is that he hasn't given Jay Mariotti, Skip Bayless, Woody Paige, Bill Conlin, Bill Plashke heart attacks just yet - anyone who pisses of the self-righteous blowhards is a-ok with me.

[dime]

I can certainly see why guys like Ramirez or Melido Perez or whomever would be entertaining to folks who don't really watch baseball or follow it closely...they do "weird" things and that is interesting to someone who doesn't really appreciate the game or finds it boring.

I don't see why it's something that would be considered special or charming, though. The arguments I'm reading in that vein don't hold up at all.

Just because 99% of manny's peers don't make an ass of themselves doesn't mean they're cowtowing to the media or that they are afraid of what other people will think. More likely, it means that those players are just more secure than the mannys and the bonds of the world.

[molson]

Originally Posted by dime

Just because 99% of manny's peers don't make an ass of themselves doesn't mean they're cowtowing to the media or that they are afraid of what other people will think. More likely, it means that those players are just more secure than the mannys and the bonds of the world.

Maybe - but as crazy at it is, I find that a part of Manny's charm.

He doesn't get in trouble with the law, he's not a jerk to fans, he's a nice guy by all accounts.

And he's as quirky as shit, seemingly completely oblivious and indifferent to the world's opinion of him.

i can't think of anybody who compares - we'll really appreciate him when he's gone.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dime

I can certainly see why guys like Ramirez or Melido Perez or whomever would be entertaining to folks who don't really watch baseball or follow it closely. ... I don't see why it's something that would be considered special or charming, though.

And the former seemed to be the majority of the crowd in my little story.
Outside of the Braves, I figure the only people in the room who gave a damn about baseball were the ones in NY/BOS gear, sure as hell nobody else was paying attention to that TV except for the Manny AB.

And I won't argue that many of them were "charmed" by it, but they were definitely "entertained" enough to pay attention, which sort of makes it "special" by comparison to the rest of what was taking place on that screen.

Meanwhile, since I'm already posting, lemme backtrack to something Bucc said

I traveled 100 miles to go see Tony play and those in the SD area would hang on to his every move. I really don't care or give any credibility to what American Idol- or Britney Spears-obsessed TV zombies desire.

I was just picking out Gwynn for a random great hitter example. Of course people in the SD area paid attention to him, people watch Chipper & Andruw bat here too (and neither is in the "great" territory). And as for those AI fans, I would assume that you've figured out at some point that I'm pretty much in agreement with you as far as the difference in what entertains them & what entertains me ... but at the same time, I'd have to have my head in the sand not to realize those folks account for somewhere between 80% & 90% of the tickets sold to Turner Field any more. Show up in the 3rd, leave in the 6th or 7th, mostly there to see & be seen and to make a cell call or two from their company season ticket seats they happened to be employee of the week to get. The odds of sitting next to someone at a game these days who actually finds baseball even equally interesting to American Idol are getting slimmer & slimmer.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yikes. I kind of knew of it was bad, but I really hadn't realized just how bad it was.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sp.../tbs_1017.html

[i]New York — The National League championship series had all the elements of a low-rated sporting event: a sweep involving two smaller-market, tradition-poor franchises.

The Colorado Rockies' four-game sweep defeat of the Arizona Diamondbacks drew an average 2.8 rating for all households and a 3.3 for homes with TBS. The previous low average LCS rating was a 6.2 for the Mets' five-game victory over the Cardinals in 2000.

That's a little deceptive since the others were on network TV (Fox). I wonder what the Colorado-Arizona series would have gotten on a major network. I'm pretty sure it would be atleast double what it got on cable.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Trust me, there was nothing in the reaction (anecdotal though it may be) that indicated that it was about him being a great hitter, at least not in & of itself.
I never saw Tony Gwynn get that sort of reaction. It was all about entertainment (or the potential for it), as they immediately went back to what they were doing & couldn't have cared less about the game itself (with the exception of a group of about 5 or 6 that were all wearing either Red Sox or Yankees gear).

Welcome to Hollywood I guess, or something like that.

Manny gets what every elite power hitter with a well-known track record gets - interest. Be it McGwire, A-Rod, Popi, Manny, Bonds or Pujols. I'll bet the same people in the restaurant would have been just as interested in Mark McGwire in his prime if he came up in that spot. People love the chance at a HR and will always pay more attention to the top sluggers than guys like Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Arles

Manny gets what every elite power hitter with a well-known track record gets - interest. Be it McGwire, A-Rod, Popi, Manny, Bonds or Pujols. I'll bet the same people in the restaurant would have been just as interested in Mark McGwire in his prime if he came up in that spot. People love the chance at a HR and will always pay more attention to the top sluggers than guys like Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs.

{shrug} All I can tell you is that I've never seen that dramatic a reaction to a non-Brave in a similar situation in my life, with the possible exception of Sosa. Pujols? Not even close, A-Rod either. Bonds is an exception, because so many are hoping to watch him fail although that too is as personality driven as anything.

edit to add: Truth is, it shocked the hell out of me. I had no idea there were that many people in this area who could have even picked the guy out of a police lineup, much less wanted to see him at bat.

[Arles]

I remember being in school in Illinois in 1985 and our class stopping everytime Jack Clark came to bat. Now, he was about as low-key as you can get as a person. In fact, Vince Coleman, Ozzie Smith and Willie McGee were much more "interesting" to watch as people, but no one stopped on their ABs. Clark had power and that's what excited people.

Same thing happened for McGwire vs Sosa. I don't think people in 1998 said "Well, I'll watch Sosa but not McGwire, Sammy's got more personality". As Greg Maddux once said - chicks dig the long ball. And, if you can combine the long ball with a known icon, you have atleast some interest from most fans.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Arles

I remember being in school in Illinois in 1985 and our class stopping everytime Jack Clark came to bat. Now, he was about as low-key as you can get as a person. In fact, Vince Coleman, Ozzie Smith and Willie McGee were much more "interesting" to watch as people, but no one stopped on their ABs. Clark had power and that's what excited people.

Same thing happened for McGwire vs Sosa. I don't think people in 1998 said "Well, I'll watch Sosa but not McGwire, Sammy's got more personality". As Greg Maddux once said - chicks dig the long ball. And, if you can combine the long ball with a known icon, you have atleast some interest from most fans.

Jack Clark wasn't a guy your average fan stopped to watch hit. Neither was Dale Murphy. I'd argue that no one really stops to watch Pujols hit either.

Before McGwire started getting hype for the HR chase, no one watched him outside of St. Louis or Oakland. Canseco got more attention than McGwire did when they played in Oakland. Sosa wasn't known by many outside Chicago before the HR chase. They did something special and the attention followed them the rest of their careers. Reyes is a guy that isn't exactly a slugger that gets people to watch his at bats and while he's on the bases. Carl Crawford would probably be the same if he played in a different market.

Its not necessarily all about power. Bo Jackson wasn't all that good of a baseball player, but I'll be damned if you didn't want to watch everything he did. With Manny, you want to see him hit, but at the same time you want to see if he's going to something. I'd bet if you asked your average fan they'd have no clue he's one of the top right handers to ever play baseball. They know him as a great player that does things that make you want to watch.

[dime]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Jack Clark wasn't a guy your average fan stopped to watch hit. Neither was Dale Murphy. I'd argue that no one really stops to watch Pujols hit either.

sorry, but this (and the later stuff I snipped) is just not true at all. people aren't watching ramirez hit because he has dreadlocks and is a head case. they're watching because he can hit any pitch out of the ballpark. people DO stop to watch pujols hit for the same reason...not because they're hoping he will do a cartwheel to first base or break down in tears or something.

the folks hoping for a cartwheel don't really care about baseball to begin with, and while the red sox probably have gained a good number of these "fans" in the last few years (hey, jimmy fallon and drew barrymore are on the field! they think manny is wacky!) I don't think it's wise to extend their views to categorize baseball or sports fans as a whole. most of us want to see someone play because they're good, not because they show off.

[SirFozzie]

Cleveland has been the better team so far.. looks like the Sox season will be over soon.. :/

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dime

I don't think it's wise to extend their views to categorize baseball or sports fans as a whole. most of us want to see someone play because they're good, not because they show off.

Most of "us" here at FOFC? Yeah, I would agree.

Most of the people who end up at a lot of the stadiums around the country?
I disagree, likewise with a significant portion of those watching in the postseason.

[Young Drachma]

I think Cleveland and Colorado matchup a lot better for the Rockies than what the Red Sox would've done. If you're looking for the better story, both stories are compelling in a Rox v. Indians world series. I want them to win the World Series and then change their damn mascot.

But it would be funny of the Indians could lose another World Series at the hands of the other member of the expansion class of '93.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Cleveland has been the better team so far.. looks like the Sox season will be over soon.. :/

I don't necessarily agree. Yesterday, they hit the ball very hard, but had some bad luck - most went straight to a fielder; solo homeruns, etc., etc.. The game yesterday could easily have had the score reversed had lady luck shined the other way. Just one of those games. Definitely still have a good chance at it.

[rkmsuf]

CC Sabigass for teh win!

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by dime

sorry, but this (and the later stuff I snipped) is just not true at all. people aren't watching ramirez hit because he has dreadlocks and is a head case. they're watching because he can hit any pitch out of the ballpark. people DO stop to watch pujols hit for the same reason...not because they're hoping he will do a cartwheel to first base or break down in tears or something.

the folks hoping for a cartwheel don't really care about baseball to begin with, and while the red sox probably have gained a good number of these "fans" in the last few years (hey, jimmy fallon and drew barrymore are on the field! they think manny is wacky!) I don't think it's wise to extend their views to categorize baseball or sports fans as a whole. most of us want to see someone play because they're good, not because they show off.

Whether you like it or not, the casual fan makes up a much larger population than the people that sit and watch every pitch of every game. These casual fans are the ones that stop to watch guys like Manny or Reyes or Bonds hit and then go back to what they're doing. These are fans that give the large market teams huge ratings. These are the people ESPN and other networks look to pull in because they know that you, me, and other baseball fans are going to watch the games regardless.

Your true baseball fans will stop to watch Pujols hit, but your casual fan isn't going to watch him like they do some other players. Your mistake is trying to categorize a player's following by the "true" baseball fans while overlooking the casual fan, which is the group that makes a much bigger impact in TV ratings.

[JonInMiddleGA]

What a difference a game makes I guess. From the bottom of the ratings to the top, as Fox wins the night for broadcast with a stronger showing for Game Four.
Easier competition on the other networks surely helped, but total viewers look to be up by about 20% over Game 3.
http://www.medialifemagazine.com/art...l_playoffs.asp

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Whether you like it or not, the casual fan makes up a much larger population than the people that sit and watch every pitch of every game. These casual fans are the ones that stop to watch guys like Manny or Reyes or Bonds hit and then go back to what they're doing. These are fans that give the large market teams huge ratings. These are the people ESPN and other networks look to pull in because they know that you, me, and other baseball fans are going to watch the games regardless.

Your true baseball fans will stop to watch Pujols hit, but your casual fan isn't going to watch him like they do some other players. Your mistake is trying to categorize a player's following by the "true" baseball fans while overlooking the casual fan, which is the group that makes a much bigger impact in TV ratings.

I'm going to call shenanigans for trying to slip in Reyes's name over Pujols. It's just dead wrong.

SI

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I'm going to call shenanigans for trying to slip in Reyes's name over Pujols. It's just dead wrong.

SI

Better baseball player? Hell no.

More entertaining. Yes.

[Crapshoot]

http://deadspin.com/sports/here.s-yo...ean-312329.php

Now this is just funny.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

http://deadspin.com/sports/here.s-yo...ean-312329.php

Now this is just funny.

Pretty hilarious indeed. I doubt Beckett will shed a tear, given more people know who he is, versus how many people have any freakin' idea who she is. He probably hit last night for old time's sake.

[Young Drachma]

Interesting story from The NY Times about the Rockies fan base out west:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/us...tml?ref=sports

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Pretty hilarious indeed. I doubt Beckett will shed a tear, given more people know who he is, versus how many people have any freakin' idea who she is. He probably hit last night for old time's sake.

Never heard of her.

This could also backfire, and tick Beckett off enough that he's throwing 3 - 4 MPH faster than normal...

[Young Drachma]

This kid went to Yankee Stadium and beat the Yankees to win a World Series.

He might choke, but this won't be the reason for it. I wouldn't give him material to fuel him.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Better baseball player? Hell no.

More entertaining. Yes.

Maybe but definitely not more recognizable to casual fans.

SI

[MizzouRah]

Good for you piece of shit Manny Ramirez! Way to loaf your lazy ass around the bases and take that single!!!

I hope the Indians beat them tonight.

[SirFozzie]

I have to admit, that is a funny ebay commercial

[Lathum]

It is inexcusable that a major league player can't get a bunt down in an elimination game with 2 on and nobody out.

[Desmond]

I now have a good idea what Tim McCarver sounds like when he orgasms. Thanks.

[SirFozzie]

BTW, full marks to the ump..they got the call right on Manny's "Single". :/

[Lathum]

these are the kind of lost oppritunities that have killed the sox

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Desmond

I now have a good idea what Tim McCarver sounds like when he orgasms. Thanks.

I;m glad I am not the only one who noticed this