The 2011 NBA Offseason---Stern says no

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Commissioner has veto power over any trade. Not to mention the league owns the Hornets.

But didn't they hire someone to run the franchise and make decisions in its' best interest?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

I strongly dislike the Lakers, but this is accurate. What stern pulled was horseshit, WWE style.

+1

[albionmoonlight]

Message sent from owners to players (whether or not they intended to send it):

"You boys work on whatever plantation we tell you to work on."

Didn't the owners get some sense that the lockout was a bit . . . personal from the players' end? Just let Paul go to the team he wants to go to. Good will is had by all.

For all the bad-will during the NFL lockout, I got the sense that the owners and players were pretty much on the same page in terms of liking and respecting each other personally.

I think that NBA players and owners fucking hate each other.

[Ksyrup]

As "owner" he can veto it like any owner can veto a trade his FO wants to make.

[miami_fan]

As much as I hate David Stern, I truly believe he is a puppet now. He is just the mouthpiece.

My ire is going straight to the owners. Or should I say the "small market" owners who did not want the season to be played under any circumstances.

They are still battling over the CBA and I would not be surprised if the Dan Gilberts of the NBA continue do things of this nature for the next six years.

[LloydLungs]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

In the sport where a star player means the most(other than maybe QB of a NFL team) its odd that they decide to cap the stars in the NBA. A guy like LBJ is probably a 30+ million/yr player in an uncapped market. Basically any team that has a star player on their team is getting him at a discount price. No wonder the league has little parity.

This so damn much. I think doing a "salary cap plus one uncapped star" system would have taken care of the superteam issue and the players would have agreed to it. As far as I know it was never even on the table. Just shaking my head. They totally blew this CBA.

For what it's worth, I really like watching NBA basketball, am a Hornets season ticket holder, but I feel like I need to withdraw, and I'm sad about it. I wish things were different, but a league like this is just going to piss me off. Sports is supposed to be fun, after all.

[Fidatelo]

I think Gilbert has a point; the Lakers would make out like bandits in that trade. I'm not saying Stern should have vetoed it, but that is a pretty horseshit trade from a competitive balance standpoint.

I would hate to be a fan of about 80% of the teams in the NBA, because the only chance they have at titles is if they get SUPER LUCKY in the lottery, probably multiple times in a 5 year span.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by LloydLungs

This so damn much. I think doing a "salary cap plus one uncapped star" system would have taken care of the superteam issue and the players would have agreed to it. As far as I know it was never even on the table. Just shaking my head. They totally blew this CBA.

For what it's worth, I really like watching NBA basketball, am a Hornets season ticket holder, but I feel like I need to withdraw, and I'm sad about it. I wish things were different, but a league like this is just going to piss me off. Sports is supposed to be fun, after all.

I doubt they could get that past the owners. Enough of the big teams would object to keep it from happening. A team like LA has no interest in competitive balance. They'd be much happier if the NBA worked like La Liga.

[miami_fan]

The fact that Dan Gilbert has a say on whether or not the Lakers would make out like bandits is the problem. The Knicks had Isiah Thomas as a GM. That did a hell of a lot more to throw off the competitive balance of the league than this trade.

[Ksyrup]

So were there not enough small market owners to veto the CBA, or did they just go along with it because they are guaranteed more money and are now bitching about the competitive balance issues after the fact? If they were powerless to stop a bad deal from their end, then I get Gilbert's frustration and reasoning for going public. If they just did what Stern told them, and refused to deal with the owner v. owner issues before taking on the players, then he gets what he deserves.

[Ksyrup]

The other part that seems to be driving this is simply retaining franchise value for the next owner. CP3 gives it considerably more value than without him. They are concerned with retaining value and selling it at a premium. Because when they do that, it makes their franchises that much more valuable.

[Warhammer]

Wait a sec, Lakers get Paul, and deal both Odom and Gasol. Yet this is a lopsided trade?

The power of the Lakers, once Gasol was added, was they had a 3 headed beast at the forward and center positions. Gasol was a "point" PF who would dish to anyone for the open shot or finish himself. Odom is a freak that can play at least 4 positions on the court. Moving him to the bench was a huge advantage in the Gasol trade because he can do whatever the team needs and not have the pressure of being a starter.

Sure, the Lakers may be getting the #1 player in the deal, but they are giving up the #2 and #3 players in the deal to get him.

In the Gasol trade that sent him to the Lakers, everyone said the Lakers got the best of that deal. What do those people think now? The Grizzlies were going no where with Pau. With Marc and the subsequent acquisition of Randolph, some are naming them one of the teams to watch this year.

Ultimately, the problem the NBA has is they have been marketed for 20 years as stars. You don't really care about the teams, you are supposed to care about the stars. Its not the Lakers with Kobe Bryant, its Kobe and the Lakers. When the NBA came back in the mid-80s it was the Lakers vs. the Celtics. Sure there was Magic and Bird, but they were part of the teams. Now, the NBA is having problems because people only come out to see the stars. They need to develop the team concept. They need to promote the team. Until they do that, we're going to be back in this same boat every few years because those that have the stars have all the money and power.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I doubt they could get that past the owners. Enough of the big teams would object to keep it from happening. A team like LA has no interest in competitive balance. They'd be much happier if the NBA worked like La Liga.

Nor should anyone else. A team works to make themselves better under the rules. The Lakers should not be forced to ask, "This makes us better, but what does it do for the Hornets?" The Lakers concern should be in making themselves better, not competitive balance.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Wait a sec, Lakers get Paul, and deal both Odom and Gasol. Yet this is a lopsided trade?

The power of the Lakers, once Gasol was added, was they had a 3 headed beast at the forward and center positions. Gasol was a "point" PF who would dish to anyone for the open shot or finish himself. Odom is a freak that can play at least 4 positions on the court. Moving him to the bench was a huge advantage in the Gasol trade because he can do whatever the team needs and not have the pressure of being a starter.

Sure, the Lakers may be getting the #1 player in the deal, but they are giving up the #2 and #3 players in the deal to get him.

In the Gasol trade that sent him to the Lakers, everyone said the Lakers got the best of that deal. What do those people think now? The Grizzlies were going no where with Pau. With Marc and the subsequent acquisition of Randolph, some are naming them one of the teams to watch this year.

Ultimately, the problem the NBA has is they have been marketed for 20 years as stars. You don't really care about the teams, you are supposed to care about the stars. Its not the Lakers with Kobe Bryant, its Kobe and the Lakers. When the NBA came back in the mid-80s it was the Lakers vs. the Celtics. Sure there was Magic and Bird, but they were part of the teams. Now, the NBA is having problems because people only come out to see the stars. They need to develop the team concept. They need to promote the team. Until they do that, we're going to be back in this same boat every few years because those that have the stars have all the money and power.

Yeah, I am not so enamored with the trade off here from the Lakers standpoint actually. I think there's a good chance they would be worse in this deal. They would trade one advantage they have that almost no team can match (versatile and athletic height) for another ball-dominant player, where Paul and Kobe will have to learn to share. And your PF is... ?!?

This trade doesn't seem lopsided to me from a talent tarde perspective.

All that said, I would agree that the Hornets should ideally be looking at a younger, upside package in return.

Either way, silly decision by the league to overturn this, for precedent purposes alone, above and beyond anything else.

[whomario]

What a mess, especially for all players involved.

I do agree that it isn´t a great trade for the Hornets but i also don´t think it´d have been great or the Lakers or the Rockets, actually.

But now all those teams have a couple disgruntled star players, oh fun ...

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Yeah, I am not so enamored with the trade off here from the Lakers standpoint actually. I think there's a good chance they would be worse in this deal. They would trade one advantage they have that almost no team can match (versatile and athletic height) for another ball-dominant player, where Paul and Kobe will have to learn to share. And your PF is... ?!?

This trade doesn't seem lopsided to me from a talent tarde perspective.

All that said, I would agree that the Hornets should ideally be looking at a younger, upside package in return.

Either way, silly decision by the league to overturn this, for precedent purposes alone, above and beyond anything else.

Plus you can't trade for Dwight Howard now because that would also upset the competitive balance of the NBA.

[DeToxRox]

Can't make this up

Golden State Warriors' Charlie Bell jailed for being drunk at hearing on his drunken driving case

Bay Area News Group staff and wire report
Posted: 12/09/2011 08:51:53 AM PST
Updated: 12/09/2011 08:51:55 AM PST

FLINT, Mich. -- Golden State Warriors guard Charlie Bell was jailed Thursday in his hometown of Flint, Mich. after showing up to court legally drunk for a hearing on his drunken driving case, ABC 12 (WJRT-TV) reported.

Bell, 32, spent a few hours in custody when a pre-scheduled alcohol assessment test before his case Thursday showed his blood-alcohol level was .09. The legal limit is .08.

ABC 12 reported that Bell was held in Genesee County's 67th District Court holding cell on a bond violation until he sobered up.

Bell's attorney Michael Manley told ABC12, that Bell takes full responsibility for what happened Thursday.

Bell is expected back in court Friday.

He was originally arrested in Flint Township Oct. 21 for drunken driving, driving with a suspended license and failure to stop at a stop sign.

The Warriors are the fourth NBA team Bell has played for in seven years after leaving Michigan State. He played in 19 games for the Warriors in 2010-11, averaging 1.7 points per game.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Plus you can't trade for Dwight Howard now because that would also upset the competitive balance of the NBA.

i stopped giving a shit about the nba long ago but the rotisserie geek in me still gets off on personnel strategy so forgive me if i'm wrong but...

it's not the paul deal but the impending howard deal that stern's heading off, right? if this deal goes through do the lakers have the pieces to still go after howard?

[SirFozzie]

except now the Magics are filing tampering charges against the Nets (edit: and apparently another team as well) because the nets owner and a couple business associates met with Dwight Howard.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

i stopped giving a shit about the nba long ago but the rotisserie geek in me still gets off on personnel strategy so forgive me if i'm wrong but...

it's not the paul deal but the impending howard deal that stern's heading off, right? if this deal goes through do the lakers have the pieces to still go after howard?

Depends, but possibly. They could trade Bynum/Blake/Artest and Walton, and take back Howard/Arenas. Orlando doesn't have to amnesty arenas, and instead could cut Hedo.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

i stopped giving a shit about the nba long ago but the rotisserie geek in me still gets off on personnel strategy so forgive me if i'm wrong but...

it's not the paul deal but the impending howard deal that stern's heading off, right? if this deal goes through do the lakers have the pieces to still go after howard?

I assume so. The next step would have been Howard saying that he wasn't going to sign with anyone he was traded to so as to depress his value to where the Lakers could have grabbed him for Bynum, a pick and some spare parts.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I think that NBA owners fucking hate each other.

Fixed

[stevew]

Epic Knicks move.....Pick up the 14m option on Billips. Then use him as an amnesty waiver so they can sign Chandler. Crazyness.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Apples and Oranges. Minnesota wasn't owned by the league at the time. That argument doesn't even make sense.

And idk that I'd call Al Jefferson "crap" - at least not at the time. He still had a very high ceiling then, and was coming off a couple years (or was it just one big year) in Boston.

That makes no goddamn difference - if anything, because they are leagued owned they should act like any other team - in their best perceived interest.

And yes, you have your Boston blinders on. People who know more than you (like John Hollinger) think it was a great deal for NO - Paul is going to leave in 7 months, and they would get an actual team (Scola is as good as Jefferson, Martin average 23 last year) out of it.

Also, I really enjoyed this piece: Five Bullshit Things About David Stern's Bullshit Veto Of The Chris Paul Trade

[heybrad]

So many things about the Chris Paul veto piss me off, but Dan Gilberts email needs to be called out more for the pure piece of bullshit that it is. This part pisses me off the most.

Over the next three seasons this deal would save the Lakers approximately $20 million in salaries and approximately $21 million in luxury taxes. That $21 million goes to non-taxpaying teams and to fund revenue sharing.

It's not the Lakers job to fund your shitty franchise. Dan Gilbert is a scumbag.

[Crapshoot]

Dan Gilbert is an epic scumbag - I though the comic sans rant proved it.

[korme]

Originally Posted by stevew

Depends, but possibly. They could trade Bynum/Blake/Artest and Walton, and take back Howard/Arenas. Orlando doesn't have to amnesty arenas, and instead could cut Hedo.

Or they'll just have someone take on Hedo, because they waived/amnesty'd Arenas.

[korme]

Such a sad, sad story. I feel incredibly bad for Brandon Roy. One of my favorite players to watch play... great ability to score without any speed/quickness advantage.

Brandon Roy of Portland Trail Blazers to retire due to knees, sources say - ESPN

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by korme

Such a sad, sad story. I feel incredibly bad for Brandon Roy. One of my favorite players to watch play... great ability to score without any speed/quickness advantage.

Brandon Roy of Portland Trail Blazers to retire due to knees, sources say - ESPN

This really sucks. Such a promising future was ahead for him in the NBA.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Message sent from owners to players (whether or not they intended to send it):

"You boys work on whatever plantation we tell you to work on."

Didn't the owners get some sense that the lockout was a bit . . . personal from the players' end? Just let Paul go to the team he wants to go to. Good will is had by all.

For all the bad-will during the NFL lockout, I got the sense that the owners and players were pretty much on the same page in terms of liking and respecting each other personally.

I think that NBA players and owners fucking hate each other.

Really? Go to the "plantation" slavery card?

SI

[DeToxRox]

The Pistons are straight up buying out Rip Hamilton so we still have our amnesty to use inevitably on Charlie V. I am so happy.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

except now the Magics are filing tampering charges against the Nets (edit: and apparently another team as well) because the nets owner and a couple business associates met with Dwight Howard.

In theory, that would be the Rockets - but it was dropped since Houston won't be messing with Howard any more

SI

[sterlingice]

Man, I have to like the plan here- Morey finally found a chance to use his stockpile of young assets: trade for Gasol and, if they could, sign Nene. That would be one hell of a front court with a lot of young parts to try out in the back court

SI

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I think Gilbert has a point; the Lakers would make out like bandits in that trade. I'm not saying Stern should have vetoed it, but that is a pretty horseshit trade from a competitive balance standpoint.

I would hate to be a fan of about 80% of the teams in the NBA, because the only chance they have at titles is if they get SUPER LUCKY in the lottery, probably multiple times in a 5 year span.

Why do people keep saying this without actually, you know, checking it? John Hollinger loves it for the Hornets. Bill SImmons loves it for the Hornets. Just because Chris Paul is a name and people who know nothing about basketball keep saying this doesn't make it true in any way.

[JPhillips]

If the NBA is going to have the other owners control the trade there should be a public auction for Paul. Let teams see the other offers and try to outbid. I'd actually pay attention to the NBA that day.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Really? Go to the "plantation" slavery card?

SI

I'm not saying that I agree. I'm saying that the players are very aware of the racial dynamic at play after a really acrimonious CBA negotiation.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

If the NBA is going to have the other owners control the trade there should be a public auction for Paul. Let teams see the other offers and try to outbid. I'd actually pay attention to the NBA that day.

Not just basketball. How awesome would a Darvish auction be. And I think MLB arbitration would make an awesome made for Tv event.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Why do people keep saying this without actually, you know, checking it? John Hollinger loves it for the Hornets. Bill SImmons loves it for the Hornets. Just because Chris Paul is a name and people who know nothing about basketball keep saying this doesn't make it true in any way.

I may not watch as much basketball, but that means I'm not allowed to disagree with those guys? What exactly should I have 'checked'? Other peoples opinions?

I don't like the trade, but I also wouldn't have canceled it because the trade is sadly what you get in a system like the NBA has, which is one that centers around a half dozen teams. I just think it sucks for NO fans that this is the way it has to be.

[stevew]

Odom and Scola were both guys the Hornets could have traded for value as well. I think the Hornets really did well.

[stevew]

Smattering of talk that Oden will miss the season.

[k0ruptr]

Originally Posted by stevew

Smattering of talk that Oden will miss the season.

this makes me sad as well. I want to see him have one full year...but sadly i dont think it will ever happen

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Why do people keep saying this without actually, you know, checking it? John Hollinger loves it for the Hornets. Bill SImmons loves it for the Hornets. Just because Chris Paul is a name and people who know nothing about basketball keep saying this doesn't make it true in any way.

It's still a shit deal for the Hornets. Adding a bunch of expensive aging role players gets you 35-40 wins. Their contracts end in 2 years and you have nothing to show for Chris Paul. It's a stupid trade. If the Hornets are giving up Paul, blow the team up and at least have a chance at a future.

[Young Drachma]

You can't blow the team up if 90% of teams will only deal for him with an extension. The owners stance here is he should play out his deal, get less money since he can't sign and trade and put their foot down on these insolent players who think they have leverage. Even if it means the hornets don't get shit for him. You can't trade him somewhere he won't extend and get a haul that you all falsely believe they can get for him.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's still a shit deal for the Hornets. Adding a bunch of expensive aging role players gets you 35-40 wins. Their contracts end in 2 years and you have nothing to show for Chris Paul. It's a stupid trade. If the Hornets are giving up Paul, blow the team up and at least have a chance at a future.

You ASSUME they will only win 35-40 games. If the right pieces fit together sort of like how it did for Denver after the melo trade last year there is much more upside than 35-40 wins. Besides like someone else mentioned(maybe Steve) Odom is a valuable trade asset and probably Miller as well. No one said the trades have to end at this point.

[RainMaker]

Then you hang on to him and ride into the sunset this season. Sorry, but the Lakers are not capable of signing him as a free agent this offseason. Same with some other teams mentioned. So put the pressure on Paul to commit to a team long term if he wants out of town so bad.

All this has turned into is let the big market teams gut the Hornets and drop their aging high priced veteran contracts on them in the process.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

You ASSUME they will only win 35-40 games. If the right pieces fit together sort of like how it did for Denver after the melo trade last year there is much more upside than 35-40 wins. Besides like someone else mentioned(maybe Steve) Odom is a valuable trade asset and probably Miller as well. No one said the trades have to end at this point.

So they win 45 games? What's the point here? You're still not close to being a contender and just paying a lot to have shitty draft picks the next couple seasons.

And most of those guys aren't good trade assets because they make a lot of money and are old. The only one with value is Scola.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So they win 45 games? What's the point here? You're still not close to being a contender and just paying a lot to have shitty draft picks the next couple seasons.

And most of those guys aren't good trade assets because they make a lot of money and are old. The only one with value is Scola.

Are you sure you are even familiar with Kevin Martin?

He is 28 years old and was 8th in the NBA in offensive win shares last year.

Lamar Odom had 10.1 win shares last year. He may be on the old side but a VERY nice addition to any team especially a playoff contender.

Scola had 5.5 win shares last year.

So they are getting back around 25 win shares, a first round pick, and another player that someone must see upside in for a player that totaled 13.9 win shares last year and is in the final 6 months of his contract. Yet this is a terrible trade for the Hornets?

[RainMaker]

And I don't think this all falls on Stern. I think the owners blew their lid when they realized that the Hornets were just patsies setup to be gutted by the Lakers and Celtics. They caught on to the scam and forced his hand.

I mean the Hornets just willingly took on Jermaine O'neal's $6 million contract for no reason at all to help the Celtics sign David West. I'm surprised the Lakers didn't try and dump Luke Walton's shit contract in that deal too.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Are you sure you are even familiar with Kevin Martin?

He is 28 years old and was 8th in the NBA in offensive win shares last year.

Lamar Odom had 10.1 win shares last year. He may be on the old side but a VERY nice addition to any team especially a playoff contender.

Scola had 5.5 win shares last year.

So they are getting back around 25 win shares, a first round pick, and another player that someone must see upside in for a player that totaled 13.9 win shares last year and is in the final 6 months of his contract. Yet this is a terrible trade for the Hornets?

It's not a bad trade short term, it's a horrible trade long term. It's not like Martin, Odom, and Scola are on cheap deals. And two of them are in their 30's. Martin is also not a long term option at SG considering his age as well. They all make considerable money too.

Like I said, in a year this team will have nothing to show for Chris Paul but a potential 1st round exit.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's not a bad trade short term, it's a horrible trade long term. It's not like Martin, Odom, and Scola are on cheap deals. And two of them are in their 30's. Martin is also not a long term option at SG considering his age as well. They all make considerable money too.

Like I said, in a year this team will have nothing to show for Chris Paul but a potential 1st round exit.

No point in playing out the season I guess. You seem to know what is going to happen. Did the Heat win?