Katrina hits Category 5.

[Galaxy]

Also, the alligators and snakes (I've heard sharks as well) in the streets. Thats scary as well.

[Ben E Lou]

They're showing some more video right now at wwltv

http://www.wwltv.com/perl/common/vid...props=livenoad

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

Fair point. Hadn't considered that junkies would be part of the (what is now becoming) Thunderdome crowd.

I do wonder whether New Orleans is a total loss at this point. I know there will be efforts to rebuild, but is it possible that it might not come to pass? One nightmare scenario to consider is that yet another storm may come out of the Gulf in September and deliver the coup de grace while the city struggles to recover. At this point, even a Cat 1 or 2 may be enough to finish the job.

I wonder if the question of should it be fully rebuilt will be considered, actually. In light of the information regarding the 20th-century additions to the levees, I wonder if it shouldn't simply become truly "The Crescent City" once again.

[Wolfpack]

I would think an area with such historical significance as the French Quarter will likely be rebuilt and may effectively be the core of a newer (and probably smaller) city. But if so much is unrecoverable, do people displace around New Orleans, move to Baton Rouge, or what? Also, should agencies raze and remove what can't be recovered if an attempt to reduce the city to it's "crescent" origins is done?

[JonInMiddleGA]

http://apnews.myway.com//article/200...D8CASVK01.html
... New Orleans' homeland security chief, Terry Ebbert, said looters were breaking into stores all over town and stealing guns. He said there are gangs of armed men moving around the city.

The Times-Picayune newspaper reported that the gun section at a new Wal-Mart in the Lower Garden District had been cleaned out by looters.

Gunshots were heard throughout the night in Carrollton.

Police spokesman Marlon Defilo said an officer and a looter were wounded in a shootout. Defilo had no word on their condition. Three or four others were also arrested, he said.

One looter shot and wounded a fellow looter, who was taken to a hospital and survived.

Staff members at Children's Hospital huddled with sick youngsters and waited in vain for help to arrive as looters tried to break through the locked door, Blanco spokeswoman Denise Bottcher told the newspaper. Neither the police nor the National Guard arrived.

Authorities planned to send more than 70 additional officers and an armed personnel carrier into the city.

On New Orleans' Canal Street, dozens of looters ripped open the steel gates on clothing and jewelry stores and grabbed merchandise. In Biloxi, Miss., people picked through casino slot machines for coins and ransacked other businesses. In some cases, the looting was in full view of police and National Guardsmen.

What this looks to be turning into is a whole lot of prey for a smaller group of hunters.
If this isn't brought under control very soon, I stand by my belief that the aftermath may have a higher death toll than the storm. I feel sorry for the prey, I have no mercy at all where the predators are concerned.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

I would think an area with such historical significance as the French Quarter will likely be rebuilt and may effectively be the core of a newer (and probably smaller) city. But if so much is unrecoverable, do people displace around New Orleans, move to Baton Rouge, or what? Also, do we (and when I say "we", I mean "we" as Americans and taxpayers to the federal government, which will likely bear the brunt of rebuilding costs) just raze and remove what can't be recovered if an attempt to reduce the city to it's "crescent" origins is done?

I don't know all the answers, and I don't think anything should be mandated, but I can't escape the feeling that listening to A. Baldwin Wood in the early part of the 20th century was a bad, bad idea.

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/foru...ad.php?t=42188

[capsicum]

After reading JonInMiddleGA last post all I can say is "Sick Bastards."

[Ben E Lou]

Mayor has suggested to parents that they should enroll their kids in schools in places to which they've evacuated.

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by capsicum

After reading JonInMiddleGA last post all I can say is "Sick Bastards."

kill em all i say

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Mayor has suggested to parents that they should enroll their kids in schools in places to which they've evacuated.

A statement that I'll bet is going to make him really popular with the destinations. One that may ultimately make it harder for them to find destinations for the refugees too.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

A statement that I'll bet is going to make him really popular with the destinations. One that may ultimately make it harder for them to find destinations for the refugees too.

But what is the alternative?

[vtbub]

Texas will open up it's schools. That's what their governor just said.

[Ben E Lou]

Wwltv is reporting that the water is still rising, and is starting to impact homes that are on "higher ground."

[Tigercat]

Yea, my family thats evacuated in Houston says Houston schools are already working on ways to bring in evacuated kids.

[Tigercat]

Something to remember about New Orleans and this situation and the question of if it should be rebuilt is that the city avoided a situation of this magnitude for hundreds of years. I don't see how New Orleans now is any different than if another big one hit San Fran. It would be different if New Orleans flooded like this even every 100 years, but... Hell with more attention to the wetland buffer zones and a little more work on the levees, this wouldn't have happened to this degree at all. New Orleans' situation will never be perfect, far far from it, but don't be so quick to amputate or cut apart a finger just because its badly broken. New Orleans adds culture to this country that no place else can replace, in a land of Mcdonalds and strip malls we can use all of that that we can get.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Something to remember about New Orleans and this situation and the question of if it should be rebuilt is that the city avoided a situation of this magnitude for hundreds of years. I don't see how New Orleans now is any different than if another big one hit San Fran. It would be different if New Orleans flooded like this even every 100 years, but... Hell with more attention to the wetland buffer zones and a little more work on the levees, this wouldn't have happened to this degree at all. New Orleans' situation will never be perfect, far far from it, but don't be so quick to amputate or cut apart a finger just because its badly broken. New Orleans adds culture to this country that no place else can replace, in a land of Mcdonalds and strip malls we can use all of that that we can get.

According to the articles I've read, it has been less than 100 years since they built significantly anywhere but on the higher ground.

Until the early 20th century, construction was largely limited to the slightly higher ground along old natural river levees and bayous, since much of the rest of the land was swampy and subject to frequent flooding. This gave the 19th century city the shape of a crescent along a bend of the Mississippi, the origin of the nickname The Crescent City. In the 1910s engineer and inventor A. Baldwin Wood enacted his ambitious plan to drain the city, including large pumps of his own design which are still used. All rain water must be pumped up to the canals which drain into Lake Pontchartrain. Wood's pumps and drainage allowed the city to expand greatly in area. However, pumping of groundwater from underneath the city has resulted in subsidence. This has greatly increased the flood risk, should the levees be breached or precipitation be in excess of pumping capacity, as would later happen in 2005 in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. A major hurricane could create a lake in the central city as much as 30 feet deep, which could take months to pump dry.

[Ben E Lou]

Looters in N.O. commandeered a forklift to break into a store.

[Buzzbee]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Something to remember about New Orleans and this situation and the question of if it should be rebuilt is that the city avoided a situation of this magnitude for hundreds of years. I don't see how New Orleans now is any different than if another big one hit San Fran. It would be different if New Orleans flooded like this even every 100 years, but... Hell with more attention to the wetland buffer zones and a little more work on the levees, this wouldn't have happened to this degree at all. New Orleans' situation will never be perfect, far far from it, but don't be so quick to amputate or cut apart a finger just because its badly broken. New Orleans adds culture to this country that no place else can replace, in a land of Mcdonalds and strip malls we can use all of that that we can get.

While I agree to a large degree, realize that the culture of which you speak is submerged under 20 feet of water. Sure, some of that will resurface, but the 'culture' of New Orleans has been changed forever.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

But what is the alternative?

One thought (hey, I'm sitting here working, one is all I've had time for on this) might be temporarily double-shifting classrooms, facilities etc. AND use some of the currently unemployed N.O./LA teachers to staff the Louisiana classes. That would serve several purposes -- among them, jobs for the unemployed AND avoiding the cost burden falling on other systems quite so heavily. (although given the response from Texas, I strongly suspect the cost element has already been worked out, either with Louisiana or Federal funding).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

New Orleans adds culture to this country that no place else can replace, in a land of Mcdonalds and strip malls we can use all of that that we can get.

And some of that "culture" is also what we see looting, and what we saw unwilling to take shelter as ordered, and unable/unwilling to leave entirely.

That may sound harsh, but it's also the straight truth.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

While I agree to a large degree, realize that the culture of which you speak is submerged under 20 feet of water. Sure, some of that will resurface, but the 'culture' of New Orleans has been changed forever.

I think people are more resilient than that. Remember all the hysteria after 9/11 about the end of American culture as we knew it (e.g., some pundits even thought that comedy would never be appropriate again)? Sure, some things have changed, but the essential character of NYC resurfaced quickly and the city just kept chugging along. I expect no less from New Orleans in a few years...

[Tigercat]

The problem is, nothing in south louisiana should exist as it does. This includes places that are relatively higher than others. All of it should be swamp land, home to a river that either expands all over the place distributing setiment in all directions, or home to a river that shifts depositing setiment to different places at different times.

Even if we are to just have a smaller seemingly safe New Orleans, it too will be unsafe one day unless the bigger concept is thought about and treated. And that concept is that the reason south louisiana exists was because of the river doing its own thing and depositing setiment over a wide area for millenia. And now that we have confined that river we MUST address its consequences, the erosion of wetlands. I am fairly confident, that if we had the wetlands we had 100 years ago, and still had the levees we have today, we would not be in this situation in New Orleans today.

But for years and years, for the most part the Federal government has turned a blind eye to wetlands erosion..... And even if we have a smaller higher New Orleans, gradually the wetlands will erode even more, until water is even further knocking down the door to the smaller supposedly safer New Orleans. A line has to be drawn eventually. I am confident ways can be found to protect whats left of the wetlands and coastlines. But I don't think giving up parts of the area as hopeless is the right way to go or the right mentality to take.

[GoldenEagle]

Gas stations here are swamped. There are rumors that you will not be able to get gas for a couple of days and that when they do reopen, it will be $4 a gallon.

I also heard a thing on the local radio that evacuees were looking for temp work. There is a common solution to this all. The government should open up hubs in Houston, Memphis, etc and put them to work. They could open up temp schools, etc near by.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

One thought (hey, I'm sitting here working, one is all I've had time for on this) might be temporarily double-shifting classrooms, facilities etc. AND use some of the currently unemployed N.O./LA teachers to staff the Louisiana classes. That would serve several purposes -- among them, jobs for the unemployed AND avoiding the cost burden falling on other systems quite so heavily. (although given the response from Texas, I strongly suspect the cost element has already been worked out, either with Louisiana or Federal funding).

Interesting - where would this be ? In LA ? itself ?

[sachmo71]

Trying to find my relatives who made it to Dallas some jobs right now. Starting me thinking about how many will even go back once the city is habitable again.
But it will be rebuilt. Too much industry there to just walk away.

[GoldenEagle]

Remember how I was saying my sister's boyfriend is in the MS National Guard? Well, he did not have to go down to the coast (already doing a tour in Iraq does wonders for getting out of stuff) but he talked to one of his friends down there. Again, this heresay, but the friend said there are dead bodies everywhere. They are washing up, caught in trees, etc. He said the death total in MS alone will shock people.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

There are rumors that you will not be able to get gas for a couple of days and that when they do reopen, it will be $4 a gallon.

Although it's probably scant consolation, at least you can know you aren't alone on this one.

This is from, and about, Atlanta, http://www.ajc.com/news/content/busi...gasprices.html

Some suppliers are rationing gasoline to retailers, so some stations may already be near empty.

With supplies uncertain, oil companies and larger wholesalers are ratcheting up prices, partly to slow demand. Some local wholesalers already are paying 65 to 80 cents per gallon more than they paid three days ago. That kind of price increase will hit the pumps within a few days.

On Monday, the scare talk was about prices hitting $3 a gallon at the pump. By Tuesday, that line had changed for the worse, said Tex Pitfield, president of Saraguay Petroleum Corp., which delivers gas to retailers.

"Depending on how much damage has actually taken place and the time involved in getting the infrastructure up and running, is $4 a gallon out of the question? Not necessarily," he said.

[FrogMan]

There are talks in the Quebec media that gas prices are about to jump from 1.094 $cdn per liter to 1.34 $cdn per liter in Quebec City. That is about 4.15 $us per gallon...

FM

edit: as a comparison, 1.09 $cdn per liter is about 3.40 $us per gallon

[HomerJSimpson]

Something is going down in a Bank in Gulfport. Armed officers are entering the building.

[albionmoonlight]

The breach of the levee and the inability to fix the breach has turned this from a disaster into the total destruction of the city.

[Ben E Lou]

Live news conference. Update on the 17th street canal's breach:

• 100 sandbags (300 pounds each) put there
• This afternoon more will be dropped from copters
• Levees on lake and river and secure
• Attempting to close at breach
• Attempting to close entrance from lake to canals
• Lake level has equalized with interior water in city, should be no more new flow into city until high tide this evening (half a foot)
• They've ordered more slings for sandbags*
• 1200 concrete barriers are being brought in, 250 have been delivered.

*--Slings get dropped from 'copters WITH the sandbags. They had run out of them.

[Ben E Lou]

I've got to run, but the news conference is being shown live on the wwltv site.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

Something is going down in a Bank in Gulfport. Armed officers are entering the building.

I was wondering how long that would take.

[Buzzbee]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

I think people are more resilient than that. Remember all the hysteria after 9/11 about the end of American culture as we knew it (e.g., some pundits even thought that comedy would never be appropriate again)? Sure, some things have changed, but the essential character of NYC resurfaced quickly and the city just kept chugging along. I expect no less from New Orleans in a few years...

80% of NYC wasn't flooded. The damage in Manhattan, while horrific, in no way compares to the damage seen along the Gulf Coast. Yes, people are resilient, and they will bounce back, but the lifestyle that was will never be again, at least not for a very long time.

I think 9/11's economic impact will end up being much greater (a negative effect whereas Katrina may end up bringing positive long-term economic effect due to rebuilding), but the cultural impact of the flooding associated with Katrina will be much, much more dramatic.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

I was wondering how long that would take.

Yeah, hasn't anyone seen "Hard Rain?"

[Crapshoot]

Okay, this level of looting is repulsive. I don't like drawing lines in the sand on it, but I think its one thing to try and get food because you have no options other than grocery stores- stealing Jeans and DVD players is a different thing. I recognize there is some level of hypocrisy in this - but they really can't buy food at this point- commerce doesnt seem to be happening.

[albionmoonlight]

I don't know why they are happy that the situation with the lake and the flood water has "equalized." It equalized because the lake totally flooded the city. It got as bad as it could get. We lost.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

... whereas Katrina may end up bringing positive long-term economic effect due to rebuilding ...

I've already seen debate about whether there'll be any rebuilding in a large part of the Mississippi Gulf Coast. The gist of it was that the area was already so poor & underinsured that the money simply won't exist to RE-build for a lot of the damage/destruction.

Now what you brought up raises, in my mind at least, a point that I haven't seen discussed: there is a difference between rebuilding and new construction.

Maybe what the MS Gulf Coast economy looks like after Katrina is very different than what it looked like before?

[Ben E Lou]

Back. Anything new or interesting from the wwltv news conference?

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

- stealing Jeans and DVD players is a different thing.

Could make a case for jeans since it is clothing...

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Could make a case for jeans since it is clothing...

A body can survive naked. Can't survive without food and water.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

A body can survive naked.

Sure.. ask the people to walk around naked..

[JonInMiddleGA]

My wife just left me a voice mail, telling me to try to find somewhere to fill up the car.
When she picked Will up at school for an dental appointment, the school was trying to find somewhere to fill up the buses ... the biggest gas station in our little town is out of gas & doesn't know when they'll be resupplied.

More than likely I think this is a product of Hooterville being at the low priority end of a very taxed supply chain, but it's still enough to be a worrisome harbinger of things that may be coming.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Masked

My parents are at Children's Hospital and I was very worried when I saw this report. I called my parents at about 1:45 central last night (about two hours after the report was first published), and apparently this story at nola.com was erroneous or at least geatly exaggerated. Security at the hospital is good; there is a SWAT team therel.

Children's Hospital has power, water (even hot water), and food; but it is one of the few buildings with even just one of the those three. So my parents are far more comfortable than most others in the city.

And for EaglesFan27, there is still no flooding in that area, and apparently the water is rising extremely slowly, if at all.

I wonder if those SWAT teams are going around NOAH as well. In any case, at least your parents and the kids are ok. Our stuff can always be replaced. Thanks for the continued updates (our internet at the hotel was out for the last 3 hours to much consternation on my part.)

[Buzzbee]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

My wife just left me a voice mail, telling me to try to find somewhere to fill up the car.
When she picked Will up at school for an dental appointment, the school was trying to find somewhere to fill up the buses ... the biggest gas station in our little town is out of gas & doesn't know when they'll be resupplied.

More than likely I think this is a product of Hooterville being at the low priority end of a very taxed supply chain, but it's still enough to be a worrisome harbinger of things that may be coming.

Interesting. My wife called about 15 minutes ago to tell me that at a little podunk gas station near her work there were 8 cars at the pumps and 15 cars waiting in line.

[Ben E Lou]

To N.O. exiles: apparently text messaging IS working on 504 area code phones.

[Eaglesfan27]

Another frustrating thing for me is that LSU Medical School is waiting until tomorrow to have a phone conference of all of the department heads. I was strongly contemplating starting to head to NJ tomorrow morning. Should I extend the room one more night now and wait til after that conference?

[KevinNU7]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

I wonder if those SWAT teams are going around NOAH as well. In any case, at least your parents and the kids are ok. Our stuff can always be replaced. Thanks for the continued updates (our internet at the hotel was out for the last 3 hours to much consternation on my part.)

I'm curious, since you are a resident of the areas affected what are your plans for the next month?

[terpkristin]

Thanks SD for pointing that out.
I'd mentioned it before, but it's something so few of us think about when regular voice service doesn't work.

/tk

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

To N.O. exiles: apparently text messaging IS working on 540 area code phones.

That is true. My MIL realized that the first night we were here. It's 504 area code by the way (I know it was probably just a typo.)