The Thread of the 2009-2010 NBA Season - Page 12

jbergey22 · 12-19-2009, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't know how you can say that. Al Jefferson is much better than anyone that went to Memphis in that deal. He's a perennial All-Star who was building his way up to being one of the best PF in the league. He was averaging 23 and 11 before tearing his ACL.

For one I was comparing him to Bynum and Oden. Secondly how could he be a perennial All-Star when he has never even made an All-Star game? Id take Bynum over Jefferson was my comment. I'm sure most people actually would. Bynum is a stud defender in which Al Jefferson is not. Jefferson is a 6 10' post player.

Stats are a poor indicator of a player especially on poor teams. All NBA teams average around 100 points and all teams average around 40-50 rebounds per game so someone has to get points and rebounds.

Devin Harris went from a 15 point a game scorer to a 21.3 by going to a poor team. Richard Jefferson has been floating around the league averaging around 20 points per game on bad teams. Now that he is on a good team he averages 13.4. Even Al Harrinton has averaged 21.5 points per game these past two years.

Lack of options=more points.

RainMaker · 12-19-2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

For one I was comparing him to Bynum and Oden. Secondly how could he be a perennial All-Star when he has never even made an All-Star game? Id take Bynum over Jefferson was my comment. I'm sure most people actually would. Bynum is a stud defender in which Al Jefferson is not. Jefferson is a 6 10' post player.

Stats are a poor indicator of a player especially on poor teams. All NBA teams average around 100 points and all teams average around 40-50 rebounds per game so someone has to get points and rebounds.

Devin Harris went from a 15 point a game scorer to a 21.3 by going to a poor team. Richard Jefferson has been floating around the league averaging around 20 points per game on bad teams. Now that he is on a good team he averages 13.4. Even Al Harrinton has averaged 21.5 points per game these past two years.

Lack of options=more points.

The thing is that the T-Wolves actually turned into a decent team by the middle of last season. They had a stretch where they won like 10 of 12 games and were a pretty good team from the end of December to when Jefferson got hurt (I believe over .500).

I believe Jefferson has the talent to be a perennial All-Star in this league. He's one of the best low post offensive players in the league and at the time of the trade was only 22. There just aren't a lot of guys who can score like that in the post like that in the league (can count them on one hand).

Bynum is a good player with potential, but I don't think he's as talented as Jefferson. Jefferson is a much better offensive player and in an offensive league, that's a big difference. It reminds me a bit of the Durant/Oden debate a couple years ago. Always go with the best offensive player.

stevew · 12-19-2009, 11:15 AM

I think Pau is good. But I don't think he's in the top 10. Somewhere in the high teens most likely. Regardless the griz really shit the bed on that trade.

jbergey22 · 12-19-2009, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Bynum is a good player with potential, but I don't think he's as talented as Jefferson. Jefferson is a much better offensive player and in an offensive league, that's a big difference. It reminds me a bit of the Durant/Oden debate a couple years ago. Always go with the best offensive player.

The problem with this argument is that Jefferson is not a much better offensive player. Jefferson gets a lot more shots and scores more points however he also isnt sharing the spotlight with Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol.

Bynum's offensive game is actually very similiar to Jeffersons. They both use the hook shot quite often as a post up move. Jefferson has a decent 12-15 from jumper which Bynum doesnt have. Bynum is close to a 60 percent career shooter which means his productivity is off the charts. It tells me they should try to get him more involved. Take a 16 point per game scorer that shoots close to 60 percent and get him 3 more shots a game and you have your 20 point per game scorer.

All things being equal Jefferson is the best player on a team that wins 20 games a year while Bynum is the 3rd best player on a team that wins 60-70 games a year.

They are both good players however IMO the Twolves would win more games with Bynum than they do with Jefferson. A defensive stopped in the middle is a great equalizer when the rest of your team is below average.

RainMaker · 12-19-2009, 07:59 PM

I'd disagree. I think the fact Jefferson can hit a mid-range jumper is a huge advantage. Bynum has one post move and is more of a finisher off passes and put-backs. Nothing wrong with that at all and he'll be a solid scoring threat in the league. Jefferson is also a better rebounder.

If you're judging Jefferson by this year, he's still coming back from major knee surgery. As I mentioned, when he got hurt, the T-Wolves were not a meddling 20-win team. They were actually average and some could argue above average. They had a big month of January and seemed to be coming together well. He was thoroughly dominant in a number of games and unstoppable in the paint offensively.

I've watched both a lot and I like both their games. But when the trade was made, I'd definitely take Jefferson.

RainMaker · 12-19-2009, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

I think Pau is good. But I don't think he's in the top 10. Somewhere in the high teens most likely. Regardless the griz really shit the bed on that trade.

I think his position and size plays a role in my ranking. He's the best offensive big man in the game. The best in the league in the post and solid in the high post. I just don't know how the best offensive big man in the league could be outside the top 10.

jbergey22 · 12-19-2009, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'd disagree. I think the fact Jefferson can hit a mid-range jumper is a huge advantage. Bynum has one post move and is more of a finisher off passes and put-backs. Nothing wrong with that at all and he'll be a solid scoring threat in the league. Jefferson is also a better rebounder.

If you're judging Jefferson by this year, he's still coming back from major knee surgery. As I mentioned, when he got hurt, the T-Wolves were not a meddling 20-win team. They were actually average and some could argue above average. They had a big month of January and seemed to be coming together well. He was thoroughly dominant in a number of games and unstoppable in the paint offensively.

I've watched both a lot and I like both their games. But when the trade was made, I'd definitely take Jefferson.

They were 17-33 when Jefferson got hurt, were 4-6 in their last 10, 6-8 in the month prior. They did have a 5 game winning streak against the Warriors, Bucks, Grizzlies, Thunder and Bucks in early to mid January though.

If Jeffersons mid range shot is such an advantage you might think he would be able to shoot above 50 percent? Bynum shoots close to 60 percent without a jump shot which is what it is all about, Offensive efficiency. NBA.com:

Jefferson is 35th in points per 48 minutes Bynum is 36th despite averaging 4.9 less shots per 48 minutes.

In 08-09 Jefferson averaged 1.2 points per shot attempt, Bynum averaged 1.4 points per shot attempt. Here is the efficiency rankings Bynum is 6th, Jefferson is 11th.

Jefferson is a slightly better rebounder though. He is right around 14/per 48 minutes over the past 2 years while Bynum is at 13.1/per 48.

Basically, anyway you spin the numbers per 48 minutes Bynum is clearly a better player. At the time of the trade Bynum was an unknown while Jefferson looked to be a very good player in the making so the trade at the time was fine. If we fast forward to today there is no way the Lakers trade Bynum for Jefferson.

RainMaker · 12-19-2009, 08:56 PM

I know what they were when he got hurt. They were 13-10 after Christmas. They had a strong month of January and were turning into a decent team.

You are using stats from this season. Jefferson is still recovering from major knee surgery. Look at last season before the knee surgery. He was 6th in the league in efficiency ahead of guys like Gasol.

To compare players using shooing percentage who play different styles and have different roles is ridiculous. I'll use your logic for determining a better offensive player.

Kendrick Perkins shoots 64% from the field. . Dwyane Wade shoots 43%. Perkins does that without a jump shot which is what it's all about, Offensive efficiency.

Perkins averages 1.63 points per shot attempt while Wade averages 1.29 points per shot attempt.

Does this mean Kendrick Perkins is a better offensive player than Wade?

jbergey22 · 12-19-2009, 09:05 PM

Is Jefferson a point forward or how is his role much different than Bynum? They are post players that get rebounds and block shots as far as I know. The only difference is Jefferson plays more minutes and is more of the focus on offense because the Timberwolves suck.

Wade and Perkins are not comparable in anyway what so ever.

You'd be hard pressed to find 1 other person that would say the Timberwolves were an average to an above average team at ANY point last year FYI.

You can use whatever stats you want to use per 48 minutes. It doesnt really matter to me and you will see what you are missing.

DaddyTorgo · 12-19-2009, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I know what they were when he got hurt. They were 13-10 after Christmas. They had a strong month of January and were turning into a decent team.

You are using stats from this season. Jefferson is still recovering from major knee surgery. Look at last season before the knee surgery. He was 6th in the league in efficiency ahead of guys like Gasol.

To compare players using shooing percentage who play different styles and have different roles is ridiculous. I'll use your logic for determining a better offensive player.

Kendrick Perkins shoots 64% from the field. . Dwyane Wade shoots 43%. Perkins does that without a jump shot which is what it's all about, Offensive efficiency.

Perkins averages 1.63 points per shot attempt while Wade averages 1.29 points per shot attempt.

Does this mean Kendrick Perkins is a better offensive player than Wade?

well played sir

MrBug708 · 12-19-2009, 09:09 PM

Before Gasol came back, Bynum was averaging 19.4 and 11.4, since we are throwing out limited samples

jbergey22 · 12-19-2009, 09:17 PM

Thanks Bug,

Anyway Ive had enough of this discussion. I am fairly certain Bynum would be an absolute stud on the Timberwolves however we wont know this because it wont happen.

RainMaker · 12-19-2009, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Is Jefferson a point forward or how is his role much different than Bynum? They are post players that get rebounds and block shots as far as I know. The only difference is Jefferson plays more minutes and is more of the focus on offense because the Timberwolves suck.

Wade and Perkins are not comparable in anyway what so ever.

You'd be hard pressed to find 1 other person that would say the Timberwolves were an average to an above average team at ANY point last year FYI.

You can use whatever stats you want to use per 48 minutes. It doesnt really matter to me and you will see what you are missing.

The primary difference is that Al Jefferson is a shot creator. You can feed him the ball and he will consistently get a good shot in the post.

I don't understand why being the focus of the offense is a negative. Jefferson was seeing double and triple teaming in the post on virtually every time he touched the ball. They had no other option and he was still able to get shots up and score with efficiency.

Bynum works in an offense where he gets virtually no attention from the defense. 20% of all his shots were dunks (as opposed . He benefits greatly from having Kobe, Gasol, and Odom draw the attention of the defense and leave him unguarded.

I think a lot of people would have considered the T-Wolves an average team before Jefferson's injury. They were beating bad teams and losing to good ones. They were 13-10 after Christmas. Pretty average in my book.

jbergey22 · 12-19-2009, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't understand why being the focus of the offense is a negative. Jefferson was seeing double and triple teaming in the post on virtually every time he touched the ball. They had no other option and he was still able to get shots up and score with efficiency.

It is not a negative. But you cant say Jefferson is a better player just because he scores more points.

They are very similiar players in different situations. Bynum is 2 inches taller and a better defender that is why I like him as a player more than Jefferson.

In reality neither of them are good enough to be the focus of the offense however the wolves dont have a choice.

Anyway, new topic. This is all about what ifs and if thats.

DaddyTorgo · 12-19-2009, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

It is not a negative. But you cant say Jefferson is a better player just because he scores more points.

They are very similiar players in different situations. Bynum is 2 inches taller and a better defender that is why I like him as a player more than Jefferson.

In reality neither of them are good enough to be the focus of the offense however the wolves dont have a choice.

Anyway, new topic. This is all about what ifs and if thats.

not even that - it's about opinions. you like bynum over jefferson...rainmaker likes jefferson over bynum. the two of you don't necessarily need to agree on that

jbergey22 · 12-19-2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

not even that - it's about opinions. you like bynum over jefferson...rainmaker likes jefferson over bynum. the two of you don't necessarily need to agree on that

I can agree to this

On another note. Is it just me or does it seem like Deng and Noah are the only two that care about winning games for the Bulls this year?

I was expecting Rose to step up but he seems to be taking a back seat for some reason.

With that said I see Rose is having a great game tonight.

Chief Rum · 12-20-2009, 03:48 AM

As the lone Clips fan I am aware of on this board, just want to say I'm decently optimistic about the team's play of late. Beating the Sixers tonight, they are now 12-14. Had they not blown a huge lead against the Knicks Friday night, they would have been .500.

IMO, that's pretty good, considering they haven't had even one regular season minute of Blake Griffin yet.

I still think it's possible for the Clips to achieve those preseason predictions of making the playoffs this year. That might mean first round obliteration at the hands of the Lakers, Nuggets, Spurs, Suns, etc., but, hey, baby steps.

Warhammer · 12-20-2009, 09:06 AM

Part of the reason why Memphis did not go for the Jefferson trade was the perception that he was soft. After Pau, they wanted to toughen the team up. They also had a good number of #2/#3 guys they were trying to develop. They wanted muscle up front, and while Odom was good, he was old for what they were looking to do.

RainMaker · 12-21-2009, 09:33 PM

Bulls blew a 35 point lead at home tonight to the Kings. I am done.

bhlloy · 12-21-2009, 10:12 PM

If Rose continues on the path he's headed down right now (slightly above average PG on a pretty bad team, showing zero leadership skills) where does he rank in terms of biggest draft disappointments of all time?

Of course there have been bigger busts - he achieved more in his rookie season than Olowokandi or Kwame ever did (and probably half the first overall picks in history). But just in terms of him being the local kid, the savior of the franchise and expected to be a true superstar who would lead the Bulls back to the league elite, things certainly don't seem to be panning out that way. Or am I completely nuts to write off a 19 year old kid in his second season in the league? He just doesn't seem to have the temperament that many other great players have.

Kings tie the all-time comeback record tonight. Wow - if this doesn't get Vinny fired I don't know what will.

RainMaker · 12-21-2009, 10:53 PM

I think it's still early. He shows signs of greatness at times. He has the worst coach in the NBA developing him. The team doesn't run plays and has no flow on offense. Put a veteran coach like Doug Collins in and he's an All-Star. The kid just has too much raw ability.

whomario · 12-22-2009, 04:57 AM

I agree that this isn´t entirely on him, not even close. I´l give him a pass until he gets to play under a different coach.
On the other hand Sacramento is a fun team to watch. Really deep, Evans with one hell of a rookie campaign right now (20/5/5 on a 50% team) and a lot of young, energetic players, very deep bench (as witnessed last night) and all that with Martin and Garcia out. Although at this point i am sceptical as to how they are better with Martin back and being again the focal point of the offense despite him lacking any sort of passing ability.

In other news : How about JJ Redick as the Magic´s 6th man more or less ? Seriously, he´s definitely found a role. Very impressed by how he put his head down and just worked himself into that role on the Magic.

Malificent · 12-22-2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whomario

In other news : How about JJ Redick as the Magic´s 6th man more or less ? Seriously, he´s definitely found a role. Very impressed by how he put his head down and just worked himself into that role on the Magic.

As a Duke grad, that was the thing I was most impressed with by Redick when he was in college - he started with a great 3p shot and not a lot else. As each year progressed, he developed something new. One year, a midrange jumper - the next year the drive to the basket. And every year he improved his defense. He's a hard worker - always has been. It doesn't surprise me that he's still working to improve - he'll never be an NBA star, but he can fit well in the role he's in now.

DaddyTorgo · 12-22-2009, 09:03 AM

yay redick!

RainMaker · 12-22-2009, 03:26 PM

I guess my biggest concern with Rose is that he's real passive. Just doesn't have that killer instinct that most of the stars have. He's not one of those guys who's going to run to the middle and demand the ball and tell everyone to get the fuck out of the way. Maybe that will change with time, but I don't know if you can really change a personality. Ultimately he may be best suited as a 2nd best player on a top team and not the leader that many in Chicago had hoped.

I really think he needs a good mentor who will push him more. Byron Scott or even Avery Johnson crossed my mind as guys who will push him and mold his mindset better. It's not an effort issue with Rose, it's an psychological one. Everytime I get a little down on him he'll do some unbelievable in a game that will make me remember why Chicago has so much promise in him. The other night against Atlanta he did a crossover that literally made the defender fall down on his ass. I've seen it a dozen times last year.

bhlloy · 12-22-2009, 08:27 PM

Yeah that was kind of my point. I don't doubt his talent for a minute but he's shown absolutely nothing to suggest he's a leader or wants the ball in his hands when the going gets tough. For a PG and the #1 overall pick that's not exactly ideal, especially with all the extra baggage he carries in Chicago.

Neuqua · 12-22-2009, 08:31 PM

Rose is doing all he possibly can to bring the Bulls back against the Knicks tonight.

Neon_Chaos · 12-22-2009, 09:53 PM

Sweet jeez. The Bulls do suck this year, don't they?

jbergey22 · 12-22-2009, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Sweet jeez. The Bulls do suck this year, don't they?

Theyonly have 3 players that are worth a crap and 1 of them cant score. Rose, Deng, Noah. They also dont really have a go to scorer. Its not a proven great method to have your PG as your go to scorer.

Gibson appears he will be a decent player.

Salmons and Miller need to head back to the Kings. I believe Salmons actually hurts the team by playing he is so bad and he wont stop shooting.

They better fix this fast if they want any chance of getting Dwayne Wade.

Coffee Warlord · 12-22-2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Theyonly have 3 players that are worth a crap and 1 of them cant score. Rose, Deng, Noah. They also dont really have a go to scorer. Its not a proven great method to have your PG as your go to scorer.

They better fix this fast if they want any chance of getting Dwayne Wade.

They knew going into this season it was gonna be a rough one, though nobody would ever admit it. Which is also why I think Del Negro is going to last the full season (or close to it) -- they're just waiting till 2010, when they can get real players and a real coach.

whomario · 12-23-2009, 03:38 AM

so, the blazers with yet another injury. Now Przybilla goes down with what apears to be a long term knee injurie (read about ruptured patella tendon) .

Oden - Out
Batum - Out
Fernandez - Out
Outlaw - Out
Mills - Out
Przybilla - Out

Batum and Fernandez might be back by early February, Outlaw maybe by March.
That´s now 5 members of their supposed 9/10 man rotation.

larrymcg421 · 12-25-2009, 02:55 PM

Boston 38, Orlando 27

At the half. Is that right?

Big Fo · 12-25-2009, 06:55 PM

Awful offense from Orlando today.

Classy Laker fans throwing water bottles and foam fingers onto the court smh

stevew · 12-25-2009, 09:01 PM

The Lakers showed a lot of mock outrage out there today. I thought it was a soccer game, with all the pussy flopping and crying.

MrBug708 · 12-26-2009, 12:43 AM

While I appreciate being able to watch the Lakers on Christmas, hopefully that flop of a game will get them an off day on Christmas next year

Karlifornia · 12-26-2009, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

While I appreciate being able to watch the Lakers on Christmas, hopefully that flop of a game will get them an off day on Christmas next year

That ain't happening until Kobe retires, and even then I can't say I see it happening unless they're absolutely awful.

Chief Rum · 12-27-2009, 11:14 PM

I'm sure no one outside of the Boston and LA areas was watching, but there was a terrific, fun game going on Staples tonight. Clips ended up pulling out a huge win for them over the Celtics on a last 0.1 sec shot (more or less) by Baron Davis.

Strangely enough, the Clips have now won two in a row at home against the Celtics.

No matter what side you were on, if you were watching you woulda said it was a fun basketball game to watch.

Neuqua · 12-27-2009, 11:34 PM

Vinny's gone.

Chief Rum · 12-27-2009, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neuqua

Vinny's gone.

It's official? I heard earlier today that it was reported he pretty much was, but the Bulls wanted to horn in on a replacement first.

Neuqua · 12-27-2009, 11:49 PM

Yeah, they won't announce it until they have a replacement in place but its all a matter of time now.

rjolley · 12-27-2009, 11:49 PM

Looks like it's official that he's out, just not official when he's out.

Sources: Chicago Bulls wait on replacement to ax coach - ESPN Chicago

I'll be glad to see him out. I thought it was an odd choice, but hoped they knew something no one else did. The possible replacements are interesting. Out of the people who were recently NBA coaches, Byron Scott would be a good move. Seems he was able to help develop a young athletic PG who played one year in college into one of the best PGs in the league. Maybe he can do the same with Rose.

bhlloy · 12-28-2009, 01:09 AM

How is this in any way better than getting rid of him and having an interim coach for the meantime? If he knows he's fired, the players know he's fired and everybody else in the organization knows he's fired, what possible good could it do having him around and pretending to run the team as usual?

Do they think they will be losing leverage with all those unemployed coaches out there if they look desperate or something?

RainMaker · 12-28-2009, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhlloy

How is this in any way better than getting rid of him and having an interim coach for the meantime? If he knows he's fired, the players know he's fired and everybody else in the organization knows he's fired, what possible good could it do having him around and pretending to run the team as usual?

Do they think they will be losing leverage with all those unemployed coaches out there if they look desperate or something?

This is the Bulls. Logic doesn't work in their equation.

whomario · 12-29-2009, 06:40 PM

so the Rockets and T-Mac are aparently all but ready to part from each other... Not suprising since Adelmann never gave any indication he wanted him back, then held him out of the lineup longer than propably nescessary and then came up with the elaborate plan to sub him in after 4,5 minutes to play the rest of the first quarter and then not to return no matter what.

McGrady actually went along with it and did not bitch about it. That after doing this for 6 games he stated that he was ready for more to me is ok, certainly not iverson-stupid (we need a catchy word involving AIs name for player coming back from injury or new to teams that bitch about it after 3 or less games).

Anyways, Adelmann basically took this as an excuse to finally just admit that he doesn´t want him.

Just strange that they brought him all the way back from that injury, than let a bit of excitement built by playing him and then pull the plug. Also not even trying to boost his value by actually letting him play a bit longer.

And yes, i´m fully aware he looked very subpar out there, but even while not being a big fan of his it´s pretty obvious that 7 minutes isn´t exactly what he´s used to and that + coming back after that long a layoff (+ the whole having been seriously injured thing) isn´t exactly ideal to get back into a rythm.

I am pretty sure this is a good thing for the Rockets, but still there was a part of me wishing they´d really work him back and he´d repay the favour with good games come playoff time. Wishfull thinking i guess

MikeVic · 12-29-2009, 08:44 PM

I was looking up standings since I was curious what the Raptors' position is. I can't believe a 12-17 team is the #8 seed in the East!

stevew · 12-29-2009, 09:09 PM

Mike Brown is starting to show signs of competency. The rest of the NBA should be worried. I'm just going to chill and try to enjoy the next 6 months of basketball. Whatever happens after that is probably gonna suck.

RainMaker · 12-30-2009, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjolley

Looks like it's official that he's out, just not official when he's out.

Sources: Chicago Bulls wait on replacement to ax coach - ESPN Chicago

I'll be glad to see him out. I thought it was an odd choice, but hoped they knew something no one else did. The possible replacements are interesting. Out of the people who were recently NBA coaches, Byron Scott would be a good move. Seems he was able to help develop a young athletic PG who played one year in college into one of the best PGs in the league. Maybe he can do the same with Rose.

The way the Bulls have handled this is an embarassment and I actually feel sorry for Vinny Del Negro. So reports come out that he's going to be fired and they are waiting on a replacement. People in the organization are too pussy to comment on it. Then today Gar Forman (who is just a cardboard cutout put in there so that Paxson can make the decisions because Paxson has think skin) gives vague answers that can be construed as Vinny being given a chance to turn things around to him being out the door soon.

Seriously, if you want a guy fired, fire him. Put in an interim on the staff till you have a suitable replacement. Letting a guy hang out there like a lame duck is an insult to the guy no matter how poor of a coach he is. If I was a big name head coach, there is no fucking chance in hell I look at Chicago as an option. Dealing with these low class front office people makes the organization look real bad.

Now they've won two games and looked decent (mind you it's against New Orleans and Indiana). The upcoming 7 games are not all that tough outside of one at home against Orlando. So lets say they go 5-2 in that stretch. Does that buy him more time? I just don't get what the fuck they are doing.

whomario · 12-30-2009, 04:27 AM

weird sequence at the end of the very entertaining Warriors-Celtics game a couple nights ago :

fast forward to about 4.10 to see the most amazing inbounds pass by Radmanovich

whomario · 12-31-2009, 04:45 AM

now Lamarcus Aldridge goes down with an ankle injury, what the hell is hapenning in Portland ? (edit : aparently it´s "only" a medium sprain, but still ...)

crazy game winning 3 by Anderson Varejao (!!) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkRanEvKZus

Lebron had an absolute monster game with 48/10/6 on 16-23 shooting

Was highly entertaining, glad i stayed awake and decided on this one.

Other random observations :

- Yi looks very promising for New Jersey. The guy has some serious (scoring) skill and mobility, basically looks just like advertised before the draft. Real explosive athlete, too. Injured himself early in the season, now came back a couple games ago scoring 22, 17, 29 and 22. Nets still only won 1 of those 4 and are now an epic 3-29 ...

- Memphis now almost at 50% at 15-16 and they lost 8 of their first 9 games of the season. Since then they are 14-7. That´s a playoff calibre team. And shoot me now, but Zach Randolph looks great. Not just stats (24/14 in december) but he´s also moving the ball, running the floor at times and tries to stand in the way on defense. For him that´s a giant step up.
His stats are allways there because he´s just a gifted player with great instincts on offense, though his last 6 are kind of ridiculous : 28/17 on 57% shooting.
Grizzlies are the best rebounding team in the league (Portland falling back now with both centers out obviously) , a whopping +5 and 14 offensive boards a game. Gasol also still a double double with 15/10.
The one thing they miss is a legit option off the bench to go with that starting 5.

Oh, and Steve Nash got some humour :

whomario · 01-01-2010, 04:06 PM

How about the now 20-13 Rockets ? That game last night against Dallas was awesome (just finished watching the replay) .

22nd in FG%
15th in 3P%
22nd in FT attempted
1st in getting blocked (a whopping 7 times a game !)

21st in oponents FG percentage
15th in oposing 3P%
29th in blocked shots

so you have team that plays inefficient offense (for the exact same number of PPG the Celtics and Cavs need 7 less FGAs) and is below average defensively in terms of raw team stats, yet is 20-13 ?
They aren´t a good rebounding team either (17th in diferential) and are average at forcing turnovers (13th)

Their 9 man rotation :

-A starting PG with 5 assist to 3 TOs and 0.7 steals who still is well below average in terms of passing ability in vision (almost all his assists are easy passes to open shooters after drawing a help defender) and i shooting at an ok-above average rate (42%, 39% , ok Points per shot or similar stats)

-A starting SG taking the most shots and 3 point shots on the team despite shooting 37% from the field, 31% from 3, 65% from 3 and just topping 1.0 Points Per Shot. Who also does not play good defense at all, way too much gambdling.

- A starting SF averaging 8.5 PPG in over 33 minutes shooting 42%.

- A starting PF who shoots just 2 FTs a game resulting in a very pedestrian PPS and blocked 10 shots all year

- A starting C who averages 5/6, shoots 1 FT a game (high comedy, too) and blocked 13 shots all year.

- A 6th man PF who is their best inside scorer but averages 0.7 assists (and thus doesn´t open things up much)

- A backup PG who shoots 40% and 31% from 3

- A backup SG shooting 41% and 33% from 3 while just topping 1.0 Points Per Shot

- A backup PF shooting 42% and averaging 3 boards in 15 minutes.

Obviously i made an effort to pick the weaknesses, but it´s not like those are sidenotes but key stats.

So the fact that they are 20-13 is beyong incredible, statistically speaking.

What i´m saying : Watch a Rockets game if you want to see what "better than the sum of it´s parts" means in terms of a basketball team.

that should meet my homerism quota for the next week or so

OH, and a soon-to-be 36 year old Nash is posting basically the best stats of his career ... 18.4 PPG, 11.2 APG in 33 minutes. Shooting 54% from the field (best among perimeter players), 43% from 3 and 94% from the line (will likely be his 4th 50/40/90 season, since the 3 point line was put in this was reached only 6 other times, with only Bird doing it twice) and lis very close to leading the whole league in a couple advanced shooting statistics anfd does lead everybody in assist percentage and in offensive rating .
Steve Nash NBA & ABA Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com

12-19-2009, 09:05 PM	#559
jbergey22 Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Minnesota	Is Jefferson a point forward or how is his role much different than Bynum? They are post players that get rebounds and block shots as far as I know. The only difference is Jefferson plays more minutes and is more of the focus on offense because the Timberwolves suck. Wade and Perkins are not comparable in anyway what so ever. You'd be hard pressed to find 1 other person that would say the Timberwolves were an average to an above average team at ANY point last year FYI. You can use whatever stats you want to use per 48 minutes. It doesnt really matter to me and you will see what you are missing. Last edited by jbergey22 : 12-19-2009 at 09:08 PM.

12-20-2009, 03:48 AM	#567
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	As the lone Clips fan I am aware of on this board, just want to say I'm decently optimistic about the team's play of late. Beating the Sixers tonight, they are now 12-14. Had they not blown a huge lead against the Knicks Friday night, they would have been .500. IMO, that's pretty good, considering they haven't had even one regular season minute of Blake Griffin yet. I still think it's possible for the Clips to achieve those preseason predictions of making the playoffs this year. That might mean first round obliteration at the hands of the Lakers, Nuggets, Spurs, Suns, etc., but, hey, baby steps. __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready.

12-22-2009, 09:03 AM	#574
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	yay redick! __________________ If I've ever helped you and you'd like to buy me a coffee, or just to say thanks, I have my Bitcoin and Ethereum addressed listed below :) BTC: bc1qykhsfyn9vw4ntqfgr0svj4n9tjdgufryh2pxn5 ETH: 0x2AcdC5cd88EA537063553F5b240073bE067BaCa9

12-22-2009, 08:31 PM	#577
Neuqua Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago, Ill	Rose is doing all he possibly can to bring the Bulls back against the Knicks tonight. __________________ Our Deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be? Last edited by Neuqua : 12-22-2009 at 08:34 PM.

12-22-2009, 09:53 PM	#578
Neon_Chaos Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Parañaque, Philippines	Sweet jeez. The Bulls do suck this year, don't they? __________________ Come and see.

12-19-2009, 11:15 AM	#553
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	I think Pau is good. But I don't think he's in the top 10. Somewhere in the high teens most likely. Regardless the griz really shit the bed on that trade.

12-19-2009, 07:59 PM	#555
RainMaker General Manager Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	I'd disagree. I think the fact Jefferson can hit a mid-range jumper is a huge advantage. Bynum has one post move and is more of a finisher off passes and put-backs. Nothing wrong with that at all and he'll be a solid scoring threat in the league. Jefferson is also a better rebounder. If you're judging Jefferson by this year, he's still coming back from major knee surgery. As I mentioned, when he got hurt, the T-Wolves were not a meddling 20-win team. They were actually average and some could argue above average. They had a big month of January and seemed to be coming together well. He was thoroughly dominant in a number of games and unstoppable in the paint offensively. I've watched both a lot and I like both their games. But when the trade was made, I'd definitely take Jefferson.

12-19-2009, 08:56 PM	#558
RainMaker General Manager Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	I know what they were when he got hurt. They were 13-10 after Christmas. They had a strong month of January and were turning into a decent team. You are using stats from this season. Jefferson is still recovering from major knee surgery. Look at last season before the knee surgery. He was 6th in the league in efficiency ahead of guys like Gasol. To compare players using shooing percentage who play different styles and have different roles is ridiculous. I'll use your logic for determining a better offensive player. Kendrick Perkins shoots 64% from the field. . Dwyane Wade shoots 43%. Perkins does that without a jump shot which is what it's all about, Offensive efficiency. Perkins averages 1.63 points per shot attempt while Wade averages 1.29 points per shot attempt. Does this mean Kendrick Perkins is a better offensive player than Wade?

12-19-2009, 09:09 PM	#561
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	Before Gasol came back, Bynum was averaging 19.4 and 11.4, since we are throwing out limited samples

12-19-2009, 09:17 PM	#562
jbergey22 Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Minnesota	Thanks Bug, Anyway Ive had enough of this discussion. I am fairly certain Bynum would be an absolute stud on the Timberwolves however we wont know this because it wont happen.

12-20-2009, 09:06 AM	#568
Warhammer Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dayton, OH	Part of the reason why Memphis did not go for the Jefferson trade was the perception that he was soft. After Pau, they wanted to toughen the team up. They also had a good number of #2/#3 guys they were trying to develop. They wanted muscle up front, and while Odom was good, he was old for what they were looking to do.

12-21-2009, 09:33 PM	#569
RainMaker General Manager Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	Bulls blew a 35 point lead at home tonight to the Kings. I am done.

12-21-2009, 10:12 PM	#570
bhlloy Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2003	If Rose continues on the path he's headed down right now (slightly above average PG on a pretty bad team, showing zero leadership skills) where does he rank in terms of biggest draft disappointments of all time? Of course there have been bigger busts - he achieved more in his rookie season than Olowokandi or Kwame ever did (and probably half the first overall picks in history). But just in terms of him being the local kid, the savior of the franchise and expected to be a true superstar who would lead the Bulls back to the league elite, things certainly don't seem to be panning out that way. Or am I completely nuts to write off a 19 year old kid in his second season in the league? He just doesn't seem to have the temperament that many other great players have. Kings tie the all-time comeback record tonight. Wow - if this doesn't get Vinny fired I don't know what will.

12-21-2009, 10:53 PM	#571
RainMaker General Manager Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	I think it's still early. He shows signs of greatness at times. He has the worst coach in the NBA developing him. The team doesn't run plays and has no flow on offense. Put a veteran coach like Doug Collins in and he's an All-Star. The kid just has too much raw ability.

12-22-2009, 04:57 AM	#572
whomario Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2007	I agree that this isn´t entirely on him, not even close. I´l give him a pass until he gets to play under a different coach. On the other hand Sacramento is a fun team to watch. Really deep, Evans with one hell of a rookie campaign right now (20/5/5 on a 50% team) and a lot of young, energetic players, very deep bench (as witnessed last night) and all that with Martin and Garcia out. Although at this point i am sceptical as to how they are better with Martin back and being again the focal point of the offense despite him lacking any sort of passing ability. In other news : How about JJ Redick as the Magic´s 6th man more or less ? Seriously, he´s definitely found a role. Very impressed by how he put his head down and just worked himself into that role on the Magic.

12-22-2009, 03:26 PM	#575
RainMaker General Manager Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	I guess my biggest concern with Rose is that he's real passive. Just doesn't have that killer instinct that most of the stars have. He's not one of those guys who's going to run to the middle and demand the ball and tell everyone to get the fuck out of the way. Maybe that will change with time, but I don't know if you can really change a personality. Ultimately he may be best suited as a 2nd best player on a top team and not the leader that many in Chicago had hoped. I really think he needs a good mentor who will push him more. Byron Scott or even Avery Johnson crossed my mind as guys who will push him and mold his mindset better. It's not an effort issue with Rose, it's an psychological one. Everytime I get a little down on him he'll do some unbelievable in a game that will make me remember why Chicago has so much promise in him. The other night against Atlanta he did a crossover that literally made the defender fall down on his ass. I've seen it a dozen times last year.

12-22-2009, 08:27 PM	#576
bhlloy Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2003	Yeah that was kind of my point. I don't doubt his talent for a minute but he's shown absolutely nothing to suggest he's a leader or wants the ball in his hands when the going gets tough. For a PG and the #1 overall pick that's not exactly ideal, especially with all the extra baggage he carries in Chicago.

12-23-2009, 03:38 AM	#581
whomario Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2007	so, the blazers with yet another injury. Now Przybilla goes down with what apears to be a long term knee injurie (read about ruptured patella tendon) . Oden - Out Batum - Out Fernandez - Out Outlaw - Out Mills - Out Przybilla - Out Batum and Fernandez might be back by early February, Outlaw maybe by March. That´s now 5 members of their supposed 9/10 man rotation.

12-25-2009, 02:55 PM	#582
larrymcg421 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Georgia	Boston 38, Orlando 27 At the half. Is that right? __________________ Top 10 Songs of the Year 1955-Present (1976 Added) Franchise Portfolio Draft Winner Fictional Character Draft Winner Television Family Draft Winner Build Your Own Hollywood Studio Draft Winner

12-25-2009, 06:55 PM	#583
Big Fo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2005	Awful offense from Orlando today. Classy Laker fans throwing water bottles and foam fingers onto the court smh

12-25-2009, 09:01 PM	#584
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	The Lakers showed a lot of mock outrage out there today. I thought it was a soccer game, with all the pussy flopping and crying.

12-26-2009, 12:43 AM	#585
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	While I appreciate being able to watch the Lakers on Christmas, hopefully that flop of a game will get them an off day on Christmas next year

12-27-2009, 11:14 PM	#587
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	I'm sure no one outside of the Boston and LA areas was watching, but there was a terrific, fun game going on Staples tonight. Clips ended up pulling out a huge win for them over the Celtics on a last 0.1 sec shot (more or less) by Baron Davis. Strangely enough, the Clips have now won two in a row at home against the Celtics. No matter what side you were on, if you were watching you woulda said it was a fun basketball game to watch. __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready.

12-27-2009, 11:34 PM	#588
Neuqua Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago, Ill	Vinny's gone. __________________ Our Deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be?

12-27-2009, 11:49 PM	#590
Neuqua Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago, Ill	Yeah, they won't announce it until they have a replacement in place but its all a matter of time now. __________________ Our Deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be?

12-27-2009, 11:49 PM	#591
rjolley College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Roseville, CA	Looks like it's official that he's out, just not official when he's out. Sources: Chicago Bulls wait on replacement to ax coach - ESPN Chicago I'll be glad to see him out. I thought it was an odd choice, but hoped they knew something no one else did. The possible replacements are interesting. Out of the people who were recently NBA coaches, Byron Scott would be a good move. Seems he was able to help develop a young athletic PG who played one year in college into one of the best PGs in the league. Maybe he can do the same with Rose. Last edited by rjolley : 12-27-2009 at 11:54 PM.

12-28-2009, 01:09 AM	#592
bhlloy Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2003	How is this in any way better than getting rid of him and having an interim coach for the meantime? If he knows he's fired, the players know he's fired and everybody else in the organization knows he's fired, what possible good could it do having him around and pretending to run the team as usual? Do they think they will be losing leverage with all those unemployed coaches out there if they look desperate or something?

12-29-2009, 06:40 PM	#594
whomario Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2007	so the Rockets and T-Mac are aparently all but ready to part from each other... Not suprising since Adelmann never gave any indication he wanted him back, then held him out of the lineup longer than propably nescessary and then came up with the elaborate plan to sub him in after 4,5 minutes to play the rest of the first quarter and then not to return no matter what. McGrady actually went along with it and did not bitch about it. That after doing this for 6 games he stated that he was ready for more to me is ok, certainly not iverson-stupid (we need a catchy word involving AIs name for player coming back from injury or new to teams that bitch about it after 3 or less games). Anyways, Adelmann basically took this as an excuse to finally just admit that he doesn´t want him. Just strange that they brought him all the way back from that injury, than let a bit of excitement built by playing him and then pull the plug. Also not even trying to boost his value by actually letting him play a bit longer. And yes, i´m fully aware he looked very subpar out there, but even while not being a big fan of his it´s pretty obvious that 7 minutes isn´t exactly what he´s used to and that + coming back after that long a layoff (+ the whole having been seriously injured thing) isn´t exactly ideal to get back into a rythm. I am pretty sure this is a good thing for the Rockets, but still there was a part of me wishing they´d really work him back and he´d repay the favour with good games come playoff time. Wishfull thinking i guess

12-29-2009, 08:44 PM	#595
MikeVic Head Coach Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hometown of Canada	I was looking up standings since I was curious what the Raptors' position is. I can't believe a 12-17 team is the #8 seed in the East!

12-29-2009, 09:09 PM	#596
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Mike Brown is starting to show signs of competency. The rest of the NBA should be worried. I'm just going to chill and try to enjoy the next 6 months of basketball. Whatever happens after that is probably gonna suck.

12-30-2009, 04:27 AM	#598
whomario Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2007	weird sequence at the end of the very entertaining Warriors-Celtics game a couple nights ago : fast forward to about 4.10 to see the most amazing inbounds pass by Radmanovich

12-31-2009, 04:45 AM	#599
whomario Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2007	now Lamarcus Aldridge goes down with an ankle injury, what the hell is hapenning in Portland ? (edit : aparently it´s "only" a medium sprain, but still ...) crazy game winning 3 by Anderson Varejao (!!) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkRanEvKZus Lebron had an absolute monster game with 48/10/6 on 16-23 shooting Was highly entertaining, glad i stayed awake and decided on this one. Other random observations : - Yi looks very promising for New Jersey. The guy has some serious (scoring) skill and mobility, basically looks just like advertised before the draft. Real explosive athlete, too. Injured himself early in the season, now came back a couple games ago scoring 22, 17, 29 and 22. Nets still only won 1 of those 4 and are now an epic 3-29 ... - Memphis now almost at 50% at 15-16 and they lost 8 of their first 9 games of the season. Since then they are 14-7. That´s a playoff calibre team. And shoot me now, but Zach Randolph looks great. Not just stats (24/14 in december) but he´s also moving the ball, running the floor at times and tries to stand in the way on defense. For him that´s a giant step up. His stats are allways there because he´s just a gifted player with great instincts on offense, though his last 6 are kind of ridiculous : 28/17 on 57% shooting. Grizzlies are the best rebounding team in the league (Portland falling back now with both centers out obviously) , a whopping +5 and 14 offensive boards a game. Gasol also still a double double with 15/10. The one thing they miss is a legit option off the bench to go with that starting 5. Oh, and Steve Nash got some humour : Last edited by whomario : 12-31-2009 at 09:02 AM.

01-01-2010, 04:06 PM	#600
whomario Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2007	How about the now 20-13 Rockets ? That game last night against Dallas was awesome (just finished watching the replay) . 22nd in FG% 15th in 3P% 22nd in FT attempted 1st in getting blocked (a whopping 7 times a game !) 21st in oponents FG percentage 15th in oposing 3P% 29th in blocked shots so you have team that plays inefficient offense (for the exact same number of PPG the Celtics and Cavs need 7 less FGAs) and is below average defensively in terms of raw team stats, yet is 20-13 ? They aren´t a good rebounding team either (17th in diferential) and are average at forcing turnovers (13th) Their 9 man rotation : -A starting PG with 5 assist to 3 TOs and 0.7 steals who still is well below average in terms of passing ability in vision (almost all his assists are easy passes to open shooters after drawing a help defender) and i shooting at an ok-above average rate (42%, 39% , ok Points per shot or similar stats) -A starting SG taking the most shots and 3 point shots on the team despite shooting 37% from the field, 31% from 3, 65% from 3 and just topping 1.0 Points Per Shot. Who also does not play good defense at all, way too much gambdling. - A starting SF averaging 8.5 PPG in over 33 minutes shooting 42%. - A starting PF who shoots just 2 FTs a game resulting in a very pedestrian PPS and blocked 10 shots all year - A starting C who averages 5/6, shoots 1 FT a game (high comedy, too) and blocked 13 shots all year. - A 6th man PF who is their best inside scorer but averages 0.7 assists (and thus doesn´t open things up much) - A backup PG who shoots 40% and 31% from 3 - A backup SG shooting 41% and 33% from 3 while just topping 1.0 Points Per Shot - A backup PF shooting 42% and averaging 3 boards in 15 minutes. Obviously i made an effort to pick the weaknesses, but it´s not like those are sidenotes but key stats. So the fact that they are 20-13 is beyong incredible, statistically speaking. What i´m saying : Watch a Rockets game if you want to see what "better than the sum of it´s parts" means in terms of a basketball team. that should meet my homerism quota for the next week or so OH, and a soon-to-be 36 year old Nash is posting basically the best stats of his career ... 18.4 PPG, 11.2 APG in 33 minutes. Shooting 54% from the field (best among perimeter players), 43% from 3 and 94% from the line (will likely be his 4th 50/40/90 season, since the 3 point line was put in this was reached only 6 other times, with only Bird doing it twice) and lis very close to leading the whole league in a couple advanced shooting statistics anfd does lead everybody in assist percentage and in offensive rating . Steve Nash NBA & ABA Statistics \| Basketball-Reference.com Last edited by whomario : 01-01-2010 at 04:23 PM.

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