10-28-2005, 09:10 PM | #551 | |
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i still love ya....glad to see you somewhat admit that Rove did something immoral by putting quotes around "clear up".
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10-28-2005, 09:52 PM | #552 |
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Essentially - Rove just had a better attorney. Once they went through his first three Grand Jury comments - they realized he had some "inaccurate statements" (again quoted for effect ) regarding Cooper. So, his attornies sent him in a fourth time to clear up the loose ends and basically ensure he would not be indicted for lying or misleading prosecuters. Libby's attny should have done the same thing had he been smart.
Last edited by Arles : 10-28-2005 at 09:53 PM. |
10-28-2005, 10:45 PM | #553 | |
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My guess is that Rove not only had better attorneys but a better position from the start. You never know exactly what is going on, but based on what I've read, Libby seems to be in real trouble (not just the charges, but charges that may well lead to a conviction). Rove seemed to have been slicker about this all the way through, not just at the end. I am thinking Libby put his foot too far into his mouth for his attorney to extract it. I said all along we had to wait and see what developed, and that this would take some twists and turns. A couple of things that apparently aren't going to happen: 1. The left won't get to see Rove burned at the stake on the Capitol steps. He's a bad guy, but he wasn't going to go down for this. Which is really too bad in som respects, because, as I've said, Rove is just a bad guy. 2. They won't get to see Cheney resign and then commit ritual suicide, which seems (at least the first option) to be the new fantasy that has some on the left foaming at the mouth. And, btw, I would also like to know the whole story about Miller's sourceS, and some other details. There is still a lot untold here. |
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10-28-2005, 10:56 PM | #554 |
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My guess....Libby pleads and never goes to trial. He gets a nice pardon as Presidential thank you on the last day Bush is in office.
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10-28-2005, 11:41 PM | #555 |
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It's still fairly clear this is the guy thrown under the bus. Nothing's going to stick to Rove, Cheney, or anyone else. So, congrats, after all this, it's going to be "Scooter" Libby taken down for outing a CIA agent that a lot of others were in on. *sigh* And Grantdawg hit the nail right on the head as he won't even actually get taken down.
SI
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10-29-2005, 01:59 AM | #556 | |
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10-29-2005, 02:30 AM | #557 | |
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He and others. He took one for the team. |
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10-29-2005, 07:38 AM | #558 |
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I think it is too early to say its over. There is one source so high up that they will only call him by a letter (A). When Fitzgerals said that he had been 'sidetracked' by getting "sand thrown in his eyes" that leads me to believe that he now thinks he can get back on track to what he was mandated to look at in the first place.
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10-29-2005, 08:30 AM | #559 | |
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Fitzgerald was mad about the lies. The original 'crime' was no crime. Plame had already been outed in so many ways by so many people that it is almost funny. And her hubby's feigned indignation is humorous to watch. But I am sure the left would love to have such an investigation simmering for the rest of Bush's term. Let's get to the real bottom of this. Let's get all Miller's sources revealed, for example. She still has not had to reveal any of her sources except Libby. |
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10-29-2005, 08:37 AM | #560 | |
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Fitzgerald vehemently disagreed with this assertion during his press conference. He emphaticly stated and repeated that this was NOT true and that her identity was not exposed until the Novak piece. I'll believe him, considering the right and the left both say he has been professional and more importantly impartial. (HOWEVER, the law, as it is written, that applies to this, is very difficult to prove as was debated earlier in this thread.) This is also outlined in his statement that prior to July 14th, her status was "classified" and "not common knowledge outside the intelligence community". http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/images/10/28/statement.pdf
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10-29-2005, 09:28 AM | #561 |
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It's intriguing, because on one hand Fitzgerald definitely thinks something was criminally wrong with what happened. If you listened to the press conference, two things would have stood out. One, he repeatedly said the leaking of the name was "critically damaging." Two, he said that the journalists were "eyewitnesses to a crime".
On the other hand, though, he hasn't brought those charges against Libby, instead nailing him for lying to the FBI and in his testimony to the grand jury. So it seems to me that it's one of two things: 1. Fitzgerald decided the leak=crime case would be too hard to prosecute (not enough evidence, not enough clarity in the law, etc...) or 2. That comes later. |
10-29-2005, 09:44 AM | #562 | |
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http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...fficial_A.html |
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10-29-2005, 09:52 AM | #563 | ||
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Libby and Cheney both worked in intelligence for a long, long time. They know that the Counterproliferation Division is the operations part of CIA and not the analytical side of CIA. Fitzgerald may have been able to get proof beyond a reasonable doubt if Libby et al had actually cooperated, but that's why he is currently facing perjury and obstruction of justice charges, isn't it? |
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10-30-2005, 12:08 AM | #564 | |
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I hadn't heard/seen/read Fitzgerald's statement. Well still haven't, I've apparently become a news turtle lately...my wife hates it, and I've been too busy to keep up at work. I'm still not sure there is anything to the notion that the admin outted her in retribution. It does seem entirely possible that someone there did consciously reveal her name and involvement as some sort of damage control regarding her husband's revealations to the media. If that is what happened, then they should really go down for it. Whoever it was. |
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10-30-2005, 07:56 PM | #565 | |
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I believe this is one of the points Fitzgerald makes. |
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11-17-2005, 09:04 AM | #566 | |
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Just when it couldn't get any more convoluted, reporter Bob Woodward enters the fray with news that he got Plame's name from the Administration at least a month before Libby "leaked" it:
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So, will Woodward testify for Fitzgerald, or will he too go to jail? Link to above story |
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11-17-2005, 09:16 AM | #567 | |
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Is there a possibility that Woodward is lying to get some attention? |
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11-17-2005, 10:05 AM | #568 | |
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I wondered this too, but I guess he'll be forced to testify or sit in Jail since precedence has already been set. Then we'll find out. Now it makes Libby look even stupider since had he not committed all these smaller crimes during the investigation, today, he'd be smiling like a Cheshire Cat. "It aint the crime that gets you....its the cover-up."
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11-17-2005, 10:10 AM | #569 | |
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No offense, but Bob Woodward doesn't need attention. He's a legendary reporter who gets top access to politicians. He's also a best selling author to boot, so I'm not sure how much attention someone needs. I don't know him obviously, but by reputation he is apparently very accurate (in terms of reporting) and trustworth FWIW. |
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11-17-2005, 11:18 AM | #570 | |
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From the people who know him, he is also an attention whore. That's pretty well known. I know I've heard on more than one occasion. |
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11-17-2005, 11:52 AM | #571 | |
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True, but in this case, I'm having a tough time picturing him telling this particular lie, if only for the simple matter that it appears to help Libby. I mean, Woodward ain't exactly Bill O'Reilly with regard to his politics.
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11-17-2005, 01:13 PM | #572 | |
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True or not, it doesn't effect the charges against Libby. Fitzgerald may not have a clear picture of what happened, but Libby was indicted because he was actively trying to keep Fitzgerald from having a clear picture of what happened. But who is this other administration official now?? |
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11-17-2005, 01:43 PM | #573 | |
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Possibly, but lying to get attention doesn't seem to fit his MO. At least AFAIK. |
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02-02-2006, 01:39 AM | #574 | |
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This generation's 18.5 minute gap?
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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_r...p-328749c.html Seriously, is there anyone that in their heart doesn't know that the administration knew they were guilty from the outset? |
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02-02-2006, 02:05 AM | #575 |
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*sigh*
I can't even keep track of what scandal we're on nowadays. SI
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05-13-2006, 05:28 PM | #576 |
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Word on the street is that Karl Rove was indicted on Friday on charges of perjury and lying to investigators, with Fitzgerald spending 15 hours at the offices of his lawyer, possibly working on a plea. Information has yet to be verified.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/051306W.shtml |
05-13-2006, 05:59 PM | #577 |
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let's wait and see// I'll believe it when I see it.
But yeah, Maybe we should limit Prez's to one four year term, it seems like there's so much resentment on the other side of the political fence (both ways, first with Clinton now with Bush), that the 2nd term gets blown away
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05-13-2006, 06:05 PM | #578 |
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I'm sure the NSA will say they don't have clearance to indict Rove.
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05-13-2006, 07:46 PM | #579 | |
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Also, a lot of it could be contributed to the lame duck effect. Everyone is positioning themselves for their own presidential bid. If you are a lame duck in your first term, the gridlock could occur in the first term instead of the second. |
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05-13-2006, 09:26 PM | #580 |
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New court filing focuses on Cheney
Prosecutor: Cheney made handwritten references to Plame Saturday, May 13, 2006; Posted: 9:03 p.m. EDT (01:03 GMT) WASHINGTON (AP) -- In a new court filing, the prosecutor in the CIA leak case revealed that Vice President Dick Cheney made handwritten references to CIA officer Valerie Plame -- albeit not by name -- before her identity was publicly exposed. The new court filing is the second in little more than a month by Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald mentioning Cheney as being closely focused with his then-chief of staff, I. Lewis Libby, on Bush administration critic Joseph Wilson, who is married to Plame. With the two court filings, Fitzgerald has pointed to an important role for the vice president in the weeks leading up to the leaking of Plame's identity. In the latest court filing late Friday, Fitzgerald said he intends to introduce at Libby's trial in January a copy of Wilson's op-ed article in The New York Times "bearing handwritten notations by the vice president." The article was published on July 6, 2003, eight days before Plame's identity was exposed by conservative columnist Bob Novak. The notations "support the proposition that publication of the Wilson Op Ed acutely focused the attention of the vice president and the defendant -- his chief of staff -- on Mr. Wilson, on the assertions made in the article and on responding to those assertions." The article containing Cheney's notes "reflects the contemporaneous reaction of the vice president to Mr. Wilson's Op Ed article," the prosecutor said. "This is relevant to establishing some of the facts that were viewed as important by the defendant's immediate superior, including whether Mr. Wilson's wife had 'sent him on a junket,'" the filing states. The reference is to the fact that the CIA sent Wilson on a trip to Africa in 2002 to check out a report that Iraq had made attempts to acquire uranium yellowcake from Niger. Wilson concluded that it was highly doubtful an agreement to purchase uranium had been made. The Bush administration used the intelligence on supposed efforts by Iraq to acquire uranium from Africa to bolster its case for going to war. After the invasion, with the Bush White House under pressure because no weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq, Wilson wrote the op ed piece for The Times. In it, he accused the Bush administration of exaggerating prewar intelligence to exaggerate an Iraqi threat from weapons of mass destruction. Defending the administration against Wilson's accusations, Libby and presidential adviser Karl Rove promoted the idea that Wilson's wife, Plame, had sent him on the trip to Africa. Administration critics have said such a move was an attempt to undercut Wilson's credibility. The prosecution's court papers also stated that Cheney told Libby around June 12, 2003, that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA, a month before her identity was outed.
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05-14-2006, 10:07 AM | #581 |
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At least they've stopped referring to him as "Scooter" in this latest article
SI
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05-15-2006, 01:46 AM | #582 | |
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Yeah, I'll wait to see on this as well. If he really did it, I want to see him charged. But I am definitely NOT believing this story until I hear Fitgergald himself saying it. |
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05-15-2006, 09:14 AM | #583 |
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Fitzgerald better watch out, or Cheney might shoot him in the face.
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06-13-2006, 06:44 AM | #584 |
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Link: Lawyer: Rove Won't Be Charged in CIA Leak Case
Full Text: Lawyer: Rove Won't Be Charged in CIA Leak Case WASHINGTON (CNN) -- White House senior adviser Karl Rove has been told by Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald that he will not be charged in the CIA leak case, according to Robert Luskin, Rove's lawyer. "In deference to the pending case, we will not make any further public statements about the subject matter of the investigation," Luskin said in a written statement Tuesday. "We believe that the special counsel's decision should put an end to the baseless speculation about Mr. Rove's conduct." A grand jury has heard testimony from Rove in five appearances, most recently April 26. After that appearance, Luskin issued a statement saying, "In connection with this appearance, the special counsel has advised Mr. Rove that he is not a target of the investigation." At issue in the case has been how covert CIA operative Valerie Plame's name was disclosed to the media. On Monday, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, a former aide to Vice President Cheney, appeared in court to update a judge on preparations for his trial in the case. Libby, who resigned in October as chief of staff to Cheney, is fighting charges he lied to investigators and a grand jury about his knowledge of Plame. Plame's husband, U.S. diplomat Joe Wilson, had openly challenged part of the Bush administration's pre-war rationale for waging war on Iraq. But Libby's defense counsel has asserted there was no sinister effort to punish the Wilsons by revealing the identity of his wife to several reporters. |
06-13-2006, 08:39 AM | #585 |
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so he is innocent of this. Well, Libby got the info from somewhere....who could it have been? Who told him to "get the message out."? I guess we're waiting to find out now. Good for Karl.
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06-13-2006, 09:09 AM | #586 |
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Drudge is having fun with the story this morning. Dean's reaction. The lack of reaction from the bloggers and web sites that were calling for Rove's head on a stake. I imagine the disappointment on the left is considerable.
And of course the real story of how Plame was 'outed', if that word can even be used at all in relation to her status, has not really come out. One source is her husband. |
06-13-2006, 09:11 AM | #587 | |
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Is that sarcasm? |
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06-13-2006, 09:14 AM | #588 | |
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no, if he isnt indicted and proven guilty...then he is innocent. Like I said, doesnt mean that they or people dont do stuff that is wrong even if theyre not proven guilt of a crime, but in this case he is by definition, as of now, "innocent." I emant the second part too, about who guided Libby? Cheney? anyways, I dont like Rove but as of now, he is innocent, maybe not free of doing something wrong but "innocent".
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06-13-2006, 10:02 AM | #589 | |
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Anyway, all the info we have so far is from the lawyer, so it's tough to know exactly what is going on. There were reports in the last couple of weeks that Rove had turned and was cooperating, so who knows. |
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06-13-2006, 10:23 AM | #590 | |
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Victory? Who's declaring victory? Not me. I've said several times that I have a low opinion of Rove and think he has hurt the country. But it seemed pretty clear from the start that Rove was not the source, and all the foaming-at-the-mouth hatred from the left wasn't going to change that. Of course the left is not better than the right in the "It is true because I want it to be true" game. And I'll just repeat what I've said. Let's really, really get to the bottom of this. Let's find out who the original source really was. But I think even that will be disappointing to the left because the likely source was probably Joe Wilson, if there was an original source, because technically there was probably no crime committed at all in the supposed 'outing', and because the supposed secret about Valerie Plame's supposed covert status was an open secret all along. This has been one of the great media-created stories of the century thusfar. |
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06-13-2006, 10:58 AM | #591 | ||
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06-13-2006, 11:32 AM | #592 | |
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First you have to understand that 'outed' should be used very loosely here, since there was likely no technical violation of the law based on her status, and since her status seemed to be common knowledge among a lot of DC insiders and media. This is imho a media-created controversy. Second, one theory is that Wilson was the original source in talking to one or more reporters not of course for the purpose of discrediting his wife but for the purpose of furthering his own career and anti-administration agenda. I could give you some citations on this, but it is just a theory and you likely would not believe it, so it is not worth the trouble. I may have even cited it in this thread at some point, but it is not worth going back to it. I do recall that a National Review columnist laid the case out in detail. If you read enough about Wilson, he is pretty low guy, too, just like Rove, and not simply the husband coming to the aid of his wife. Back to Rove, the failure of the left here was in its over-eagerness to attack Rove. They took a bad case to heart. |
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06-13-2006, 01:22 PM | #593 | |
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But the RNC says that Wilson is a bad guy, and it's not like them to go after someone's character, so he has to be the guilty one here. I'd love to see this piece of NR work that explains this all away and blames it on Wilson. Let me guess, Mark Levin? |
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06-13-2006, 06:27 PM | #594 |
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There are some things about this whole thing that I've never really been comfortable with the answers to. The first of which is Just how covert was Valerie Plame? I'm not certain if this is just the standard "I can't say I work at the CIA, not because I'm an honest to goodness covert spy, but just because I work at the CIA, and policy requires that I keep up this charade." If that is the case, I can certainly believe that many people in the DC community would actually know of her actual status. I think this is a possibility because it makes sense to me. In response to the question of "Why have an investigation if she wasn't really covert?" I believe that the CIA takes this kind of thing very seriously, and requests investigations whenever identities are made public. I've heard both that her employment was a open secret and that she was an actual covert spy that no one knew about. I haven't been definitively convinced of either.
I've also read enough about this to know that Joe Wilson is more than a little bit of an opportunist. Enough so that I find it hard to buy him as an innocent protector of his wife. I'm also not sure that the revelation of Plame as a CIA employee was done in retaliation for Wilson's anti administration comments. It seems quite reasonable that it was mentioned not to "out" Plame, but to paint a more complete picture or accounting of Wilson's role. I think this motive is more likely, than retribution. |
06-13-2006, 06:56 PM | #595 | ||||
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06-13-2006, 07:29 PM | #596 | |
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If I ignore reality, I might believe that Valerie Plame was a real covert agent doing real 007 spy things. In the real world, however, that just isn't so. Not even Fitzgerald is ready to defend the alternate reality that Plame was a genuine covert operative. Here are a few links on the subject of Plame and Wilson etc. http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/expo...rk/051106.html Perhaps the key moment in the descent happened last February in the courtroom of U.S. District Judge Reggie Walton. Fitzgerald was there, along with the Libby defense team. Libby’s lawyers had asked Fitzgerald to produce evidence that Valerie Plame Wilson was a covert agent at the CIA. They had also asked for an assessment of the damage, if any, caused by the exposure of her identity. In papers filed with the court, Fitzgerald refused both requests. Now, in the courtroom, Judge Walton wanted to hear Fitzgerald’s reasons. “Does the government intend to introduce any evidence that would relate to either damage or potential damage that the alleged revelations by Mr. Libby caused, or do you intend to introduce any evidence related to Ms. Wilson’s status and whether it was classified or she was in a covert status or anything of that nature?” Walton asked. “We don’t intend to offer any proof of actual damage,” Fitzgerald said. “We’re not going to get into whether that would occur or not. It’s not part of the perjury statute.” It was an astonishing statement, in the context of what Fitzgerald has said in the past. Go back to the news conference he held last October in which he announced the Libby indictment. The case was very serious, Fitzgerald said, as he launched into the famous metaphor in which he compared the CIA-leak case to a baseball game in which the pitcher threw a fastball, hit the batter and “really, really hurt him.” This case is kind of like that, Fitzgerald said, only “it’s a lot more serious than baseball. And the damage wasn’t to one person. It wasn’t just Valerie Wilson. It was done to all of us.” There was no way one could listen to that and escape the conclusion that Fitzgerald was claiming the disclosure of Mrs. Wilson’s identity did serious damage. But that was then. Now Fitzgerald doesn’t want to talk about it. But what about Mrs. Wilson’s job status? When that issue came up, the conversation went truly off track. Wells was again pressing the judge to force Fitzgerald to turn over evidence of the damage done. The reason he needed it, Wells said, is that Fitzgerald will likely — and understandably — tell the jurors that the case began with the outing of a CIA agent. “What [the jurors] are hearing is that, as Mr. Fitzgerald said in his press conference, Mr. Libby outed a CIA agent, and they are going to be sitting in the box thinking 007’s identity has been disclosed and that my client is a terrible person,” Wells said. “It’s going to be like we have turned over the crown jewels because we outed a classified CIA agent.” The judge then turned to Fitzgerald. What did he have to say? “We are trying a perjury case,” Fitzgerald said. “If she turned out to be a postal driver mistaken for a CIA employee, it’s not a defense if you lie in a grand jury under oath about what you said.” http://www.nationalreview.com/may/may200507150827.asp The first reference to Plame being a secret agent appears in The Nation, in an article by David Corn published July 16, 2003, just two days after Novak’s column appeared. It carried this lead: “Did Bush officials blow the cover of a U.S. intelligence officer working covertly in a field of vital importance to national security — and break the law — in order to strike at a Bush administration critic and intimidate others?” Since Novak did not report that Plame was “working covertly” how did Corn know that’s what she had been doing? Corn does not tell his readers and he has responded to a query from me only by pointing out that he was asking a question, not making a “statement of fact.” But in the article, he asserts that Novak “outed” Plame “as an undercover CIA officer.” Again, Novak did not do that. Rather, it is Corn who is, apparently for the first time, “outing” Plame’s “undercover” status. Corn follows that assertion with a quote from Wilson saying, “I will not answer questions about my wife.” Any reporter worth his salt would immediately wonder: Did Wilson indeed answer Corn’s questions about his wife — after Corn agreed not to quote his answers but to use them only on background? Read the rest of Corn’s piece and it’s difficult to believe anything else. Corn names no other sources for the information he provides — and he provides much more information than Novak revealed. Corn also claims that Wilson “will not confirm nor deny that his wife …works for the CIA.” Corn adds: “But let’s assume she does. That would seem to mean that the Bush administration has screwed one of its own top-secret operatives in order to punish Wilson …” On what basis could Corn “assume” that Plame was not only working covertly but was actually a “top-secret” operative? And where did Corn get the idea that Plame had been “outed” in order to punish Wilson? That is not suggested by anything in the Novak column which, as I noted, is sympathetic to Wilson and Plame. The likely answer: The allegation that someone in the administration leaked to Novak as a way to punish Wilson was made by Wilson — to Corn. But Corn, rather than quote Wilson, puts the idea forward as his own. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...510.shtml?s=ic In a development that got no media play over the weekend, Lewis 'Scooter' Libby's defense lawyer announced on Friday that he has located five witnesses who will testify that Joe Wilson outed his wife Valerie Plame as a CIA employee before Robert Novak did so in his July 2003 column. According to the NationalReviewOnline's Byron York, Libby's lawyer Ted Wells told the court that his witnesses "will say under oath that Mr. Wilson told them his wife worked for the CIA." Once again, I hope we do get to the bottom of this. I hope Fitzgerald, somewhere along the line, does clarify whether or not a law was broken in the possible outing of Valerie Plame. And then I hope he does show exactly who did it. But at this point I doubt that will ever happen. This messy little affair involving several small men -- including both Joe Wilson and Karl Rove -- should just be allowed to die. The left has lost its chance to burn Rove at the stake. |
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06-13-2006, 09:13 PM | #597 | ||||
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Byron York and Cliff May. I was very close with my Mark Levin guess. Quote:
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06-13-2006, 09:33 PM | #598 |
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You should just give it up, Mr. B. It is over, and there will be no prosecution for 'outing' Plame. Rove is safe. I bet Libby will get off in the end, too, but perhaps not. I am hoping that the Libby case will help shed new light on what actually happened.
Interestingly, I heard Jim Warren of the Chicago Tribune on Hannity and Colmes tonight discussing the issue. He is no fan of the Bush administration. He said tonight that he thought Rove -- a master of the smear -- and company were definitely playing hardball and out to smear Wilson. But he said that in the end he believes that no underlying crime was committed. I think Fitzgerald has come to the same conclusion, or else he has decided that it is such a stretch in this particular case that he would not be able to get a conviction. Still, I would like to know what he believes actually happened. |
06-13-2006, 09:47 PM | #599 | |
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06-13-2006, 09:52 PM | #600 | |
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