The Official MLB 2007 Thread

[SackAttack]

Incidentally, 5 innings, 79 pitches, and 12 strikeouts for Brad Penny so far against Florida. He struck out 9 of the first 11 he faced.

[MizzouRah]

I REALLY love myself.


Signed,

Roger Clemens

[MizzouRah]

dola,

Plus I'm making $156,000 per day. Get over it, haters.


Signed,

Roger Clemens

[Crapshoot]

The bitterness towards Clemens is ridiculous - heck, his "I'm retiring" gig 10 times over is annoying, but why the hell shouldn't he make as much money as he wants?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

The bitterness towards Clemens is ridiculous - heck, his "I'm retiring" gig 10 times over is annoying, but why the hell shouldn't he make as much money as he wants?

Again, see references earlier in this thread to "Asshat, re: Bonds, Barry"

SI

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

The bitterness towards Clemens is ridiculous - heck, his "I'm retiring" gig 10 times over is annoying, but why the hell shouldn't he make as much money as he wants?

Boston would've provided much less pressure, almost just as much money and a great story for baseball...even if he didn't do well there (and it's hard to imagine he wouldn't.).

With the Yanks? He joins a sinking ship. A pretty expensive one, sure. But a sinking ship no less.

But I don't even care about that. I'm pissed about how he got out of Toronto, when no one else wanted his washed up ass. I blame the GM for making that deal, to be sure, but...that doesn't mean I have to like or respect this money grubbing, steroid induced tool.

I hope he gets hit by a bat.

[SackAttack]

Penny with 14 K's, 0 BB's through 7 innings. Career high K total, pocketed the ball after the inning - he's apparently done for the night.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Again, see references earlier in this thread to "Asshat, re: Bonds, Barry"

SI

Again, I see this as "I'm jealous and bitter, re: SI". We expect the players to view the teams the same way we do - as entertainment, not as a job, which is beyond ridiculous. I appreciate Bonds for my team - I don't expect him to take a cheap discount because it offends my sensibilities that he wants to make money.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Boston would've provided much less pressure, almost just as much money and a great story for baseball...even if he didn't do well there (and it's hard to imagine he wouldn't.).

With the Yanks? He joins a sinking ship. A pretty expensive one, sure. But a sinking ship no less.

But I don't even care about that. I'm pissed about how he got out of Toronto, when no one else wanted his washed up ass. I blame the GM for making that deal, to be sure, but...that doesn't mean I have to like or respect this money grubbing, steroid induced tool.

I hope he gets hit by a bat.

A great story for baseball? Seriously? I lived in Boston - the Sox are a 2nd team to me, but why on earth should Clemens take a pay cut to go to the team that told him he was washed up? Again, make the case for me that his individual decision should be a result of your (or my) wishes - would we make personal decisions based only on what our customers feel?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Again, I see this as "I'm jealous and bitter, re: SI". We expect the players to view the teams the same way we do - as entertainment, not as a job, which is beyond ridiculous. I appreciate Bonds for my team - I don't expect him to take a cheap discount because it offends my sensibilities that he wants to make money.

Again, I don't think the hatred at Clemens comes off so much this time out because of the money but because he has a history of being a mercenary. Not only that, but a two-faced mercenary. It's no different than what so many other players do, he just does it on a grander and more ostentatious scale.

I don't recall the last time a player who had retired came back out of retirement during the 7th inning stretch of an ongoing game in Yankee Stadium. And this isn't to say "7th inning stretch of an ongoing game in Yankee Stadium" exclusively just because we all know it hasn't happened before, but on that big of a stage. Most players have a press conference, but, no, Roger has to do it in front of 50K fans because he's an attention whore.

If we want to get into baseball economics, sure, that's a messy debate I'll gladly go into. But, considering it was between the two giant monoliths of slime, it's not like I have a horse in that race.

SI

[stevew]

I think by being the greatest righthanded pitcher in modern history, you are allowed to be as pretentious as you wish. I wish Roger a lot of luck, I just hope he's not a juicer like I fear he probably is. All in all one of my favorite players to watch when he's in the zone.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

A great story for baseball? Seriously? I lived in Boston - the Sox are a 2nd team to me, but why on earth should Clemens take a pay cut to go to the team that told him he was washed up? Again, make the case for me that his individual decision should be a result of your (or my) wishes - would we make personal decisions based only on what our customers feel?

The fan in me is bitter that he thought my team wasn't good enough.

The capitalist mercenary in me is happy for him, that he found a suitor to succumb to his wishes to do what he loves to do, well into his 40s, in a sport where that doesn't happen much.

Personally, I have very little positive karma for the guy. Add that to the fact that there was 2/3rds chance that he'd go play for a rival team to my favourite and that means that I hate the guy on principle.

It doesn't matter if he decided to give his entire salary to charity. I'd still want to see him fail miserably.

So in short, who cares what they paid him.

And he was washed up before he left Boston. He went to Toronto, took 'roids and proved them wrong much like Barry wanted to prove his critics wrong. He's since traveled the baseball world as some sort of diva who expects adulation at every turn.

Sure he's good.

That doesn't mean I have to like him.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

With the Yanks? He joins a sinking ship. A pretty expensive one, sure. But a sinking ship no less.

I think all this talk about the Yankees being a sinking ship is waaay premature; with that lineup and a potential rotation of Wang, Hughes, Clemens, Pettite and Mussina, I think they'll give Boston a good run.

[Buccaneer]

You guys sound like the Eastern States Promotional Network.

CY for the Pads pitched another gem on the road against the Braves and Trevor's changeup has been wicked of late.

[Buccaneer]

Oh, 1B AGonzales continues to mash the ball. The trade with the Rangers last season to bring in CY and AGon is going down as one of the most lopsided in Pads history.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Again, I don't think the hatred at Clemens comes off so much this time out because of the money but because he has a history of being a mercenary. Not only that, but a two-faced mercenary. It's no different than what so many other players do, he just does it on a grander and more ostentatious scale.

I don't recall the last time a player who had retired came back out of retirement during the 7th inning stretch of an ongoing game in Yankee Stadium. And this isn't to say "7th inning stretch of an ongoing game in Yankee Stadium" exclusively just because we all know it hasn't happened before, but on that big of a stage. Most players have a press conference, but, no, Roger has to do it in front of 50K fans because he's an attention whore.

If we want to get into baseball economics, sure, that's a messy debate I'll gladly go into. But, considering it was between the two giant monoliths of slime, it's not like I have a horse in that race.

SI

Bolded for emphasis.

[Logan]

Bring instant replay to baseball (Mets-Giants).

[Lathum]

ugh. Mets got fucked then fucked themselves

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

ugh. Mets got fucked then fucked themselves

Yeah, they've had problems defensively in the past (despite great D from guys like Reyes and Beltran), but this season it seems like as soon as one error is made, the floodgates open and everyone follows.

[miked]

All this Clemens hate is silly. Why should he ever play for the Sox. They tried to more or less screw his career and ran him out of town. If I were him, I would've made that announcement during the 7th inning stretch while urinating on a Sox cap. He's a mercenary and makes no bones about it. He's got 350 wins and is the best pitcher in the last 40 years. If you want him to leave his family and put his old body through more stress, you will have to pay and do it on his terms. Good for him. Guess what, a lot more people than the Rocket have been hired guns. People couldn't stop licking Ray Bourque's balls even though he left the only team he had ever played for in like 15 seasons to be a mercenary. There are plenty of others.

The fact that he did it the way he did may not have anyathing to do with him but more so the other attention whore in the Bronx.

[Butter]

I knew the Reds bullpen was going to be bad this year, but my God they are truly awful. Maybe the worst they've ever had, and that's saying something with their recent history.

[Ksyrup]

Speaking of instant replay, the Yankees were on the wrong side (for them) of one of the worst, most obvious missed calls I can remember seeing. Dude stole 2nd and was tagged out so far away from the base, from the replay it looked like he was 2 feet from the bag. I have no idea what the ump was looking at, and why Cano didn't raise a stink. I assume that's why Mattingly didn't go out there to bitch about it. Next guy up hits a single, game tied. Then Rivera gives up a HR in the top of the 9th, and Yanks lose! The look on Rivera's face when Beltre took him deep - he looked like Sosa hitting a big fly and then realizing after his hop that it barely reached the warning track. I'm thinking we're seeing the beginning of the end for Rivera.

[Ksyrup]

Is there a reason why a PED suspension has gotten absolutely no publicity? This was linked on the ESPN Insider's "local links" section, and is not only on the front page, it's not even a news item on the MLB page:


Rays Reliever Salas Suspended 50 Games

Skip directly to the full story.
By MARC LANCASTER The Tampa Tribune
Published: May 8, 2007


ST. PETERSBURG - The Devil Rays will have two new pitchers in their bullpen tonight, one by choice and one by order of Major League Baseball.

MLB announced Monday that Rays right-hander Juan Salas has been suspended 50 games after testing positive for a performance-enhancing substance. The ban is the first handed out this year and the fourth for a major-league player since the new, tougher drug policy was put into place prior to the 2006 season.

Under the terms of that policy, players are tested at least twice each year - once during spring training and again on a randomly selected date during the regular season, with additional tests possible. It is not known if Salas' positive test came in spring training or during the season; that information is confidential, according to MLB officials.

Salas, 28, will begin serving his suspension today. He will not be paid his $382,000 salary during the ban and won't be eligible to return until July 2, one week before the All-Star break. A second positive test would bring a 100-game suspension and a third, a lifetime ban.

Rays officials had no comment Monday beyond a two-sentence statement issued through the team's communications department:

"The Tampa Bay Devil Rays fully support Major League Baseball's drug testing policy. We will do all we can to help Juan get his career headed back on a positive course."
Salas' agent, Myles Kahn, did not return a phone message left Monday

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Is there a reason why a PED suspension has gotten absolutely no publicity? This was linked on the ESPN Insider's "local links" section, and is not only on the front page, it's not even a news item on the MLB page:


Rays Reliever Salas Suspended 50 Games

Skip directly to the full story.
By MARC LANCASTER The Tampa Tribune
Published: May 8, 2007


ST. PETERSBURG - The Devil Rays will have two new pitchers in their bullpen tonight, one by choice and one by order of Major League Baseball.

MLB announced Monday that Rays right-hander Juan Salas has been suspended 50 games after testing positive for a performance-enhancing substance. The ban is the first handed out this year and the fourth for a major-league player since the new, tougher drug policy was put into place prior to the 2006 season.

Under the terms of that policy, players are tested at least twice each year - once during spring training and again on a randomly selected date during the regular season, with additional tests possible. It is not known if Salas' positive test came in spring training or during the season; that information is confidential, according to MLB officials.

Salas, 28, will begin serving his suspension today. He will not be paid his $382,000 salary during the ban and won't be eligible to return until July 2, one week before the All-Star break. A second positive test would bring a 100-game suspension and a third, a lifetime ban.

Rays officials had no comment Monday beyond a two-sentence statement issued through the team's communications department:

"The Tampa Bay Devil Rays fully support Major League Baseball's drug testing policy. We will do all we can to help Juan get his career headed back on a positive course."
Salas' agent, Myles Kahn, did not return a phone message left Monday

I thought we already covered this. PEDs outrage is reserved when they are taken by 4-5 specific power hitters. PEDs are a-okay for all other hitters and ALL pitchers.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I thought we already covered this. PEDs outrage is reserved when they are taken by 4-5 specific power hitters. PEDs are a-okay for all other hitters and ALL pitchers.

Yes, and we also reserve front page news for inaccurate surveys that claim the white man (fans and refs) is the devil.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Is there a reason why a PED suspension has gotten absolutely no publicity? This was linked on the ESPN Insider's "local links" section, and is not only on the front page, it's not even a news item on the MLB page:

It was the top story on Yahoo MLB for a while yesterday because that's where I saw it.

And when did "PED" become an acronym?

SI

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

And when did "PED" become an acronym?

SI

When I got too lazy to type the whole thing out.

[CraigSca]

Uh oh: According to ESPN - Mike Mussina says that Roger Clemens is a #2 or #3 starter and not an ace. "We have to remember" that Roger is almost 45 years old.

Welcome to Hollywood, Roger!

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by miked

He's got 350 wins and is the best pitcher in the last 40 years.

I believe another pitcher, attached to the other NY team, may have a pretty valid argument with such an assessment .

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I believe another pitcher, attached to the other NY team, may have a pretty valid argument with such an assessment .

I don't recall Greg Maddux ever playing for a NY team.

The Maddux vs Martinez debate is going to be one of those classic peak value vs career value things, I think.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Again, I don't think the hatred at Clemens comes off so much this time out because of the money but because he has a history of being a mercenary. Not only that, but a two-faced mercenary. It's no different than what so many other players do, he just does it on a grander and more ostentatious scale.

I don't recall the last time a player who had retired came back out of retirement during the 7th inning stretch of an ongoing game in Yankee Stadium. And this isn't to say "7th inning stretch of an ongoing game in Yankee Stadium" exclusively just because we all know it hasn't happened before, but on that big of a stage. Most players have a press conference, but, no, Roger has to do it in front of 50K fans because he's an attention whore.

If we want to get into baseball economics, sure, that's a messy debate I'll gladly go into. But, considering it was between the two giant monoliths of slime, it's not like I have a horse in that race.

SI

Roger Clemens has consistently shat all over the fans of whatever team he plays for. The fact that MLB tolerates, no CELEBRATES, his infantile behavior (along with some others, like Bonds), is one of the main reasons I don't follow baseball anymore. I would sooner watch Desperate Housewives than watch Clemens pitch one inning.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I don't recall Greg Maddux ever playing for a NY team.

The Maddux vs Martinez debate is going to be one of those classic peak value vs career value things, I think.

Well, Maddux vs. Clemens vs. Martinez, I guess. And yes, I concur. Though Martinez's peak value is far, far, far above anyone's... even Koufax can't touch him for those 7 seasons when Pedro was God.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I don't recall Greg Maddux ever playing for a NY team.

The Maddux vs Martinez debate is going to be one of those classic peak value vs career value things, I think.

I don't think so. In their prime, they both had 7 consecutive seasons with an ERA+ over 160. The difference between them, aside from their K/9 ratio, is Maddux's longevity. Martinez isn't even as good as Maddux, let alone Clemens.

FWIW, I have no problem with Clemens doing what he's doing. Had he chosen Houston or Boston, I'd probably be a happy man. We're at the point where players are making so much money, but pitching effectively much longer, that it seems natural for guys to do this sort of thing. I could see John Smoltz being in the same position in a couple of years. The only two things about Clemens that bothers me are (1) he's doing it for the Yankees, and (2) the whole "being away from the team" thing. But really, if it doesn't bother the other players on his team, why should I care?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I don't think so. In their prime, they both had 7 consecutive seasons with an ERA+ over 160. The difference between them, aside from their K/9 ratio, is Maddux's longevity. Martinez isn't even as good as Maddux, let alone Clemens.

Here's the difference, Pedro's 7 consecutive seasons had ERA+ of 221, 160, 245, 285, 189, 196, 212 (average of 215.42). Maddux's were 166, 171, 273, 259, 162, 191, 191 (average of 201.85). Only Walter Johnson matches Pedro's 4 seasons of ERA+ over 200. Now the average ERA+ difference may not seem like much, but that's a difference of 13.5% better than an an average pitcher.

In my lifetime (27 years on May 30), Pedro Martinez has been the greatest pitcher. Maddux and Clemens take close co-2nds.

[Ksyrup]

But the difference isn't so great that it counters Maddux's longevity. It's not like we're comparing Bert Blyleven and Pedro. Maddux was a 1B to Pedro's 1A, plus pitched more effectively for a longer period of time.

[miked]

Wow, I can't believe people are actually arguing that Pedro was a better pitcher than Rocket or Maddux. Maybe I'm getting old, but I guess 7 seasons of great pitching is where it's at. I don't know how you can compare nearly 350 wins and 7 CY to 200 wins and 3 CY. Pedro was a great pitcher, but not even in the same class as the other 2.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

But the difference isn't so great that it counters Maddux's longevity. It's not like we're comparing Bert Blyleven and Pedro. Maddux was a 1B to Pedro's 1A, plus pitched more effectively for a longer period of time.

I'd say it comes fairly close to doing so. We are also talking of a pitcher who has a career ERA+ of 160 (best all time) compared to one who's career ERA+ is 144 (Clemens - 8th all time), and one who's at 136 (Maddux, 19th). All are very high, very impressive, and all are first ballot HOFers, but there is a bit of a gap.

Frankly, I'd throw Pedro on the top, mostly for that ungodly 7 year run (which btw, rather than just being "great pitching" was the best 7 year run for any pitcher in the history of baseball), but YMMV.

[Ksyrup]

So is there some reason why Chris Carpenter is out 3 months, but Joel Zumaya is out 12 weeks? Am I supposed to feel better that Zumaya is only going to miss a bunch of weeks, instead of a few months?

[miked]

I'm not arguing against the 7 year run (by the way, he averaged just barely 200 IP per season for that run), I'm just saying that's not enough to push him to the best pitcher for the past 40 year category. FTR, Clemens from 1986-1992 was also a great run, and he averaged 256+ IP for that stretch. He won 3 CYs despite being robbed of one in 1990.

But we're obviously going to have to agree to disagree

[ISiddiqui]

Well, if we are talking about robbed Cy Young awards, I think Pedro is missing 2 .

[stevew]

Originally Posted by miked

I'm not arguing against the 7 year run (by the way, he averaged just barely 200 IP per season for that run), I'm just saying that's not enough to push him to the best pitcher for the past 40 year category. FTR, Clemens from 1986-1992 was also a great run, and he averaged 256+ IP for that stretch. He won 3 CYs despite being robbed of one in 1990.

But we're obviously going to have to agree to disagree

Yeah, one of those "magical" 7 years he only pitched 116 innings.

[miked]

Originally Posted by stevew

Yeah, one of those "magical" 7 years he only pitched 116 innings.

Actually, he failed to top 200 3 times during that span (116, 199, 186) and barely topped 200 on 2 other occasions (213 and 217). He was great, but I would barely put him in the top 5 ahead of Glavine, Maddux, Clemens, RJ, and maybe one or two others.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I believe another pitcher, attached to the other NY team, may have a pretty valid argument with such an assessment .

Clemens is probably the greatest RH pitcher of the last 50 years. Pedro has the highest peak of any pitcher - ever. The peak vs career arguements are certainly valid. If I had to pick a guy for a career, I'd take Clemens or Maddux - no questions asked. If I had to pick a guy for a season - Pedro's 1999 or 2000 are probably the greatest pitched seasons in history.

[dawgfan]

I didn't comment on it at the time, but the plate collision between Josh Phelps and Kenji Johjima in the M's/Yankees game on Sunday really pissed me off. Rob Neyer has spent some time over the years decrying the acceptance in baseball of plate collisions, and I agree with him - baseball isn't and shouldn't be a full-contact sport.

A big part of the problem of course is that umpires don't enforce the rule that prohibits catchers from blocking the path to the plate. If catchers are called on that rule violation, that will reduce the incentive for runners to go for the collision.

But in this case, Johjima wasn't blocking the plate, yet Phelps still felt compelled to knock him over in order to jar the ball loose. This is bullshit, and it needs to stop. I'm not a big fan of intentionally plunking batters either, but in this case I was happy that Washburn hit Phelps the next time he was at the plate.

[Ksyrup]

Updated: May 8, 2007, 3:19 PM ET
Mets minor league pitcher suspended 100 games

NEW YORK -- A pitcher in the New York Mets' minor league system was suspended Tuesday for 100 games by the commissioner's office after testing positive for a performance-enhancing substance. Jorge Reyes is the 12th player to be suspended for violating the minor league drug policy and the first to draw a 100-game suspension for a second violation. A 22-year-old native of the Dominican Republic, Reyes made one start this season for Class-A Savannah of the South Atlantic League, allowing no runs on four hits in five innings.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Clemens is probably the greatest RH pitcher of the last 50 years. Pedro has the highest peak of any pitcher - ever. The peak vs career arguements are certainly valid. If I had to pick a guy for a career, I'd take Clemens or Maddux - no questions asked. If I had to pick a guy for a season - Pedro's 1999 or 2000 are probably the greatest pitched seasons in history.

Indeed, and that is where the argument comes down to. For all those who have Koufax up there because of his peak... Pedro's was far better. His peak is so damned amazing (using ERA+, in that peak, he has 4 of the top 25 seasons of all time and 5 of the top 40 - for the other two season, one was limited by injury to 116 innings, but was on pace for being around the 60th greatest season, and the other was an ERA+ of 160, by far his worst season during that run) that it trumps the longevity argument, IMO.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Indeed, and that is where the argument comes down to. For all those who have Koufax up there because of his peak... Pedro's was far better. His peak is so damned amazing (using ERA+, in that peak, he has 4 of the top 25 seasons of all time and 5 of the top 40 - for the other two season, one was limited by injury to 116 innings, but was on pace for being around the 60th greatest season, and the other was an ERA+ of 160, by far his worst season during that run) that it trumps the longevity argument, IMO.

I had a long-running argument with some old guys over at OOTP on this (a Malleus Dei in particular - think of him as a grouchier and more prickly Bucc, without any of the interesting parts) - their entire argument for Koufax came down to "because I said so" and "because I saw him". I don't know about people our age, but Pedro in 1999 was beyond unreal - he was just so much better than the rest of the league.

To me, the most notable part of those seasons was the K/BB ratio - approximately 9 in 1999, and 8 in 2000 - and without giving the HR (Schilling better the ratio once but wasprone in those seasons to the gopher ball).

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I knew the Reds bullpen was going to be bad this year, but my God they are truly awful. Maybe the worst they've ever had, and that's saying something with their recent history.

Good point, Butter.

Too bad everybody else in the thread is too busy talking about the Yankees and Red Sox like every other talking head in America that everyone's sick of. That's ok, you can continue to ignore the American League like any proper baseball fan should while wowing at the Brewers hot start.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Good point, Butter.

Too bad everybody else in the thread is too busy talking about the Yankees and Red Sox like every other talking head in America that everyone's sick of. That's ok, you can continue to ignore the American League like any proper baseball fan should while wowing at the Brewers hot start.

It's just a year later than everyone thought. Cleveland, too. Those were everyone's dark horses coming into 2006. It just took a year more of development to materialize.

SI

[Young Drachma]

Rickey doesn't really want to come back...or does he?

Roger Clemens' big announcement this week has Rickey Henderson hoping some club might give him one more chance to make a major league comeback.

Otherwise, he will call it a career — for good this time.

"Seeing Roger come back, all the seed that it plants is ask me to come back one time," Henderson said Tuesday in the Mets clubhouse before New York played the San Francisco Giants.

"I'm going to look at it at the end of the year. I might come out with some crazy stuff, a press conference telling every club, 'Put me on the field with your best player and see if I come out of it.' If I can't do it, I'll call it quits at the end," he said.

But then he says...

For now, Henderson is keeping busy and fit by maintaining the 455 acres he owns near California's Yosemite National Park. He hasn't hit the gym for a while, but he drives a tractor, rides horses and raises cows — and insists he will win a trophy in competitive fishing one day.

"I'm an old country boy. I don't look like it," he said.

But if he landed a deal like Clemens' one-year contract for $28,000,022, Henderson said he could get himself back in baseball shape in a hurry. By June, no less.

Henderson also is a realist.

"I'm through, really. I'm probably through with it now," he said. "It's just one of those things. I thank the good Lord I played as long as I played and came out of it healthy. I took a lot of pounding."

Henderson said the "bitter" thing about it is that he didn't get to leave the sport on his own terms: finishing on the field.

I just want him to get into the Hall and be done with it. If wants to come back after that, that's fine. Not because he should. Just saying...