The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Unfortunately, the French I learnt in school, is ... old Europe.

I work for a French company and have dealings with the Montreal studio on a semi-regular basis, that's the only reason French would be important to me.

[RainMaker]

I don't get why the President is being praised for his speech on repealing "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" the other night. It's a nice speech and all, but he has the power right this minute to repeal it with a stop-loss order. It's 8 months into his Presidency on an issue he said he'd handle and it's gone nowhere. Enough with the fucking speeches and promises on this, sign a stop loss order Monday morning and get this abomination over with. Then let Congress put together a bill so that we don't have future Presidents reversing it (although I think that would be highly unlikely).

[JediKooter]

What I really need is a droid that understands the binary language of moisture vaporators.

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

What I really need is a droid that understands the binary language of moisture vaporators.

I LOLed

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

For domestic work, sure. For international work, other languages are better. French and Chinese would sure be handy for me right now, but I took Spanish in high school and German in college. Sigh.

"No one who speaks German could be an evil man."

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Then let Congress put together a bill so that we don't have future Presidents reversing it (although I think that would be highly unlikely).

You mean, a bill that makes sure the Dem's stay in power after Obama is gone? Chavez repealed the laws that allowed the people to even elect somebody new...maybe we should go there next?

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Chavez repealed the laws that allowed the people to even elect somebody new...maybe we should go there next?

The Massachusetts' Democrats DID just repeal their own law forcing a special election to replace a Senator that has to leave office now that they have a Democrat governor in office when Ted Kennedy died.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't get why the President is being praised for his speech on repealing "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" the other night.

He actually isn't by a lot of gay rights activists (including Andrew Sullivan). They agree with you - it's just talk and no action. And I'm getting sick of the "other priorities" thing. Gay Americans are being treated as second class citizens and that isn't a even a mid level priority? Really?

[Tigercat]

OT, but I'll put it here 'cause its not so important to make a new thread.

Met Howard Dean yesterday at our park. Didn't even recognize him at first because he was very subdued in person and he has lost a decent amount of weight. He showed a lot of interest in what we do though, which was cool of him because that kind of interest isn't really a necessary part of his life anymore.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Dutch

You mean, a bill that makes sure the Dem's stay in power after Obama is gone? Chavez repealed the laws that allowed the people to even elect somebody new...maybe we should go there next?

A stop-loss can be reversed as soon as another President comes into power. Making a law on the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy would make it much harder to overturn as it would have to go through Congress.

Not sure where you are going with the Glenn Beck-esque rant.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

He actually isn't by a lot of gay rights activists (including Andrew Sullivan). They agree with you - it's just talk and no action. And I'm getting sick of the "other priorities" thing. Gay Americans are being treated as second class citizens and that isn't a even a mid level priority? Really?

I know some are upset, but it still seems like a small minority who are being vocal about this. It should have been done the day after he was put in office. Everyday it's not should be an uproar. He should be treated the same as Bush on gay rights until he actually does something.

[ISiddiqui]

Well, gay voters are treated by the Dems as pro-life voters are treated by the Reps. A few bones tossed to them, but overall, they are just used as a locked in voter base.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Well, gay voters are treated by the Dems as pro-life voters are treated by the Reps. A few bones tossed to them, but overall, they are just used as a locked in voter base.

But a President can't ban abortions overnight. It's a Supreme Court issue and I think Republicans have done their best lately to put in people who would overturn Roe v Wade.

Bush also signed Presidential orders that was beneficial to the Pro-Life movement.

[larrymcg421]

Well, I think he saw what happened when Clinton started with that right off the bat. And he probably wants it done as an amendment to the Uniform Code, since it would be alot harder to be reversed.

I sure hope he gets it done soon, though. I'll be disappointed if he chickens out on it like Clinton did.

[RainMaker]

World has changed a lot since Clinton on this issue. This coming generation doesn't think homosexuality is a big deal.

[JPhillips]

It isn't just Obama, congressional leadership is just as responsible for not touching DADT. It's shameful.

[RainMaker]

It is shameful of Congress, but Obama doesn't need them to fix it.

[JPhillips]

It colors my view of everyone who can fix it, but chooses not to.

[Greyroofoo]

I still don't understand why we let felons into the military but not openly gay people.

[ISiddiqui]

I've never heard of felons engaging in gay activities

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

A pretty baffling more by the Obama Administration here. I can't even imagine the backlash had the previous administration made a similar statement towards MSNBC. It doesn't make sense to make a statement that will likely only increase the audience of the network you are attempting to minimize with that statement.

White House Escalates War of Words With Fox News - Political News - FOXNews.com

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

A pretty baffling more by the Obama Administration here. I can't even imagine the backlash had the previous administration made a similar statement towards MSNBC. It doesn't make sense to make a statement that will likely only increase the audience of the network you are attempting to minimize with that statement.

White House Escalates War of Words With Fox News - Political News - FOXNews.com

FOXNews has to be loving this.

I don't know exactly what the White House hopes to accomplish here, but what a moronic strategy. I mean, do they think Republicans who watch FoxNews are going to shut it off based on what the White House says? Do they think its going to make Glenn Beck fans turn against him? It's like these people got an FOFC account and are blowing off steam in a political thread.

And, I'm sure this will be defended by people who would have had a problem with Bush attacking free speech in a similar matter. It's not up to the White House to characterize American media. If a network wants to report news with a conservative bias, and supplement that with commentators with conservative opinions, that's their right. And while the administration isn't literally suppressing that right yet, its just odd to see them attacking non-complacent media.

[JPhillips]

Funny how when it's the NYT that's being hit neither of you complained.

[Flasch186]

First off, this quote sums up 'News' on most of the Channels right now and I HATE IT and I think it is WRONG. On Fox, on CNN, on MSNBC, I hate it all when the Cafferty of said channel comes on with his witty comment or opinion. Jesus, just give me news. And Fuckin' stop with the twitter quotes! I love some Wolf Blitzer because he leaves his opinion behind.

Fox News senior vice president Michael Clemente, who likens the channel to a newspaper with separate sections on straight news and commentary, suggested White House officials were intentionally conflating opinion show hosts like Glenn Beck with news reporters like Major Garrett.

That being said, I think the White House shouldnt be engaging the journalistic pool, regardless of their opinion, at all. It is a bad precedent and they ought to stop it NOW. You could obviously present News and Opinion and then hide 'false' news behind the opinion label, use them interchangeably and cause all kinds of shenanigans.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Funny how when it's the NYT that's being hit neither of you complained.

Did the Bush administration attack the NYT because they printed an unfavorable article? If so, I missed it, that's TOTAL crap, and yes, I'm complaining about it. I could care less what party does it, it's crap. I think its funny how you're so desperately partisan about this though.

[Flasch186]

'couldnt'

[BrianD]

These seem like very silly comments by the administration, but does the fact that the comments are pretty much true change anything?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by molson

Did the Bush administration attack the NYT because they printed an unfavorable article? If so, I missed it, that's TOTAL crap, and yes, I'm complaining about it. I could care less what party does it, it's crap. I think its funny how you're so desperately partisan about this though.

Yes, the Bush admin attacked the NYT as part of the larger attack on liberal media. How is this any different than the standard liberal media bias attack that's not only not criticized, but generally regarded as truthful among many around here? Why is media criticism suddenly crap when Obama levels the same criticism that's been going since at least Nixon, only in reverse?

[molson]

Originally Posted by BrianD

These seem like very silly comments by the administration, but does the fact that the comments are pretty much true change anything?

I'm sure that makes it defensible from the perspective of many Obama supporters.

It's not really a big deal, just kind of humorously inept. Not sure what they're trying to accomplish.

[Flasch186]

It is funny and similar to the crying Liberal Media Bias all of the time....

That being said it ALL ought to stop!

And for Christ's Sake News Channels ought to be NEWS channels and stop all this other garbage!

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Yes, the Bush admin attacked the NYT as part of the larger attack on liberal media. How is this any different than the standard liberal media bias attack that's not only not criticized, but generally regarded as truthful among many around here? Why is media criticism suddenly crap when Obama levels the same criticism that's been going since at least Nixon, only in reverse?

Whatever. I just think the Obama administration shouldn't get into a pissing match with FoxNews. It accomplishes nothing. It makes them look bad. I'm not saying its different than anything else in the past. I'm not saying that Republicans haven't done this.

I could say all the same stuff to you. Why do you have a problem with the "liberal bias" accusations, but have zero problem with Obama taking on a specific network that's not kind to him? Your agenda looks a lot clearer than mine. I can say that Bush was a shitty president. You can't criticize Obama. It always goes back to complaining about/blaming someone else.

[Flasch186]

hmmm, how much time in the term did you allot before coming to that conclusion on Bush?

Anyways, agreed, the GOP ought to stop crying about Media bias as should this admin. Ill bet the liberal Media Bias' is stated much more than this most recent sillyness.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

hmmm, how much time in the term did you allot before coming to that conclusion on Bush?

It was hard to tell for a while after 9/11. The country and politics kind of took a different direction. By the end of the first term at least, it was pretty clear that this wasn't a good president. Too bad the Dems blew it '04 by nominating a stiff.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by molson

Whatever. I just think the Obama administration shouldn't get into a pissing match with FoxNews. It accomplishes nothing. It makes them look bad. I'm not saying its different than anything else in the past. I'm not saying that Republicans haven't done this.

I could say all the same stuff to you. Why do you have a problem with the "liberal bias" accusations, but have zero problem with Obama taking on a specific network that's not kind to him? Sure agenda looks a lot clear than mine. I can say that Bush was a shitty president. You can't criticize Obama.

Funny how just yesterday I called his actions shameful, but I guess criticism only counts of it matches your own.

I don't really care about Obama's thoughts on Fox. I know what I think of them and neither he nor anyone else is going to change that. I think te whole press shop should be ignored, but media organizations are too cheap and lazy to do that, so whatever press releases come out get treated as news.

The bigger issue, though, is that much of the specific criticism of Obama was ignored when Bush was president. This was less than a year ago. I'm perfectly willing to take criticism like Buc's on face value because he was making the same criticisms last year, but too many of you weren't. Now the latest outrage is admin attacks on the media when this wasn't just tolerated, but celebrated when Bush was out to get the NYT or when Palin was freezing out the networks.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

And for Christ's Sake News Channels ought to be NEWS channels and stop all this other garbage!

They'd go broke.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The bigger issue, though, is that much of the specific criticism of Obama was ignored when Bush was president.

Exactly my point. The "bigger issue" of this OBAMA story is apparently Bush. Someday, maybe this administration (and the Democratic party) will be about something else.

And how, in what universe, were the liberal media attacks "ignored" when Bush was president? You must be joking. I'm pretty sure I recall some healthy criticism of that administration, on everything, in the media, popular culture, and message boards during that time. Including criticisms of the Republicans' obsession with characterizing the media as "liberal".

I mean, is your contention that because Republicans are obsessed with demonizing the "liberal media", that Obama should return the favor and call out Fox News? He's definitely not worse than Republicans in that kind of comparison, but there's yet another check against change, I guess.

Obama kind of has the burden of proof to be better. Being just as bad as Republicans isn't particularly inspiring.

[JPhillips]

But I'm talking about you. Where were your criticism of the GOP complaining about the media? Or where were your criticisms of Palin complaining about the media? Do I really need to go back to the campaign thread and pull your quotes complaining about how the media was being unfair to Palin and McCain? Why is that okay, but criticizing Fox unacceptable?

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But I'm talking about you. Where were your criticism of the GOP complaining about the media? Or where were your criticisms of Palin complaining about the media? Do I really need to go back to the campaign thread and pull your quotes complaining about how the media was being unfair to Palin and McCain? Why is that okay, but criticizing Fox unacceptable?

A couple of posts up I complained about Bush calling out the NYT for printing unfavorable articles, if that happened.

I don't have a problem with Republicans generally calling the media "liberal". Or Democrats generally calling FoxNews "bias". I might disagree with the opinions expressed there, but I don't have a problem with the expression of that speech. I do have a problem with a presidential administration, any administration, calling out and attacking specific news/media/entertainment organizations that disagree with them. I just don't think that's their role.

I do think there is a difference between the president going after FoxNews and me personally expressing displeasure about the media being unfair to someone. There's a lot of things I say, and do, that a presidential administration probably shouldn't. My opinion is worth jack shit. The president has a somewhat more complicated role.

But aside from all that, again, my main observation is the stupidity. What is this going to accomplish? I don't think its remotely a big deal otherwise.

[JPhillips]

There I can agree with you, but this isn't some new thing. Media criticism from the White House is at least as old as Nixon and probably goes back much further.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by molson

I do think there is a difference between the president going after FoxNews and me personally expressing displeasure about the media being unfair to someone. There's a lot of things I say, and do, that a presidential administration probably shouldn't. My opinion is worth jack shit. The president has a somewhat more complicated role.

So you agree with me that the GOP leadership and it's mouthpieces had a responsibility not to lie and create outrage over lies in regards to the UHC debate, like Palin's Death Panel comment. Ill have to go back and see if you backed me up on my opinion that leaders should be held to a higher standard than us common folk, including you and I. It was a couple of full pages in here about the lies that were being regurgitated at the Tea Party events like the Death Panels and such.

[Buccaneer]

So this is what it comes down to all of this time? The amount of criticism can only be measured against the level of previous criticism?? How pathetic and so predictable. Nothing has changed in 33 years when it's about revenge and political/argumental points against your opponents. I do not expect any of us to be better than that but don't act like you are.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

So you agree with me that the GOP leadership and it's mouthpieces had a responsibility not to lie and create outrage over lies in regards to the UHC debate, like Palin's Death Panel comment. Ill have to go back and see if you backed me up on my opinion that leaders should be held to a higher standard than us common folk, including you and I. It was a couple of full pages in here about the lies that were being regurgitated at the Tea Party events like the Death Panels and such.

Palin is a complete idiot. I think its funny that Dems monitor her so closely, and then have an orgasm when she says something dumb. Her being an idiot doesn't make you more right about health care, or anything else. All it shows is that Palin is an idiot. It has nothing to do with health care opinions generally. That's the typical strategy, and its a disingenuous one. You're not going to convince me that Democrats are right about everything just because Palin's a moron, and the tea parties are dopey.

No idea what any of this has to do with anything. Because I don't think the White House should single out specific media outlets they don't like for attack, I must be pro-Palin or something?

It has nothing to do with holding leaders to higher regard. Obama is the PRESIDENT. The PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATION (any one) shouldn't get in pissing matches with media outlets that disagree with them. It's not that they should be held to a higher standard, it's that it's kind of creepy and un-American for the presidential administration to be bullying specific media outlets they don't like. The only purpose of such attacks, is a ridiculous attempt to suppress free speech (which won't be successful here), and I don't think presidents should try to suppress free speech. Just my opinion. It has nothing to do with party politics. I don't think Bush should have done it, I don't think Nixon or Ford or Reagan should have done it either.

The other thing the White House might be doing here is to actually make FoxNews more relevant and important, which will be great for FoxNews, but ultimately bad for republicans.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

A pretty baffling more by the Obama Administration here. I can't even imagine the backlash had the previous administration made a similar statement towards MSNBC. It doesn't make sense to make a statement that will likely only increase the audience of the network you are attempting to minimize with that statement.

White House Escalates War of Words With Fox News - Political News - FOXNews.com

You can't imagine the backlash if a previous administration made statements like this about a media source? Have you been following politics the last decade? The New York Times and every other media source out there not named Fox News has been labeled with a liberal media bias. They've been labeled liberal, unpatriotic and even treasonous by some. I understand not liking this stuff, but you can't honestly tell me that this is somehow new territory we've hit here.

I think it can be viewed two ways. The first is that it's the administration becoming more aggressive against attacks. They have let the other side control the debate on a lot of issues lately and perhaps this is their way of calling out lies. I did think they did a poor job addressing issues like death camps and forced abortions when those got passed around. So maybe this is their way of saying that if you are going to make up stuff, you'll be called out on it.

The other is of course that bickering with a cable news network is below the Presidency. That most people know what Fox News is and that it doesn't need to be addressed by the administration. That this kind of stuff should be handled through back channels and not through the office of the President.

I personally think it was a political move done by the administration in the same vein of the "vast right-wing conspiracy" and "liberal media bias". It's a way to discredit anything the network says. It's a way of trying to label the opposition as those who watch Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly. Not unlike thier portrayal of Republicans as the party of Limbaugh earlier. It may help build up the viewership on Fox News, but they will bank on the high negatives the network receives from the public to counteract it.

I also don't think that it was that far out of line. I mean Fox News is more or less the news of the Republican Party and tends to follow the talking points on a daily basis. They have had multiple reporters and journalists with close ties to the party. Heck, Tony Snow ended up going from being a reporter on Fox News to being the Press Secretary. There have also been the instances of fabricating stories and making news that is unfavorable to Obama (having a producer tell the crowd what to do at the tea party rallies). I don't blame Fox News for it as they should strive to get the best ratings they can, but saying they aren't really an honest news source doesn't seem to be a real stretch.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by molson

Palin is a complete idiot. I think its funny that Dems monitor her so closely, and then have an orgasm when she says something dumb. Her being an idiot doesn't make you more right about health care, or anything else. All it shows is that Palin is an idiot. It has nothing to do with health care opinions generally. That's the typical strategy, and its a disingenuous one. You're not going to convince me that Democrats are right about everything just because Palin's a moron, and the tea parties are dopey.

No idea what any of this has to do with anything. Because I don't think the White House should single out specific media outlets they don't like for attack, I must be pro-Palin or something?

It has nothing to do with holding leaders to higher regard. Obama is the PRESIDENT. The PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATION (any one) shouldn't get in pissing matches with media outlets that disagree with them. It's not that they should be held to a higher standard, it's that it's kind of creepy and un-American for the presidential administration to be bullying specific media outlets they don't like. The only purpose of such attacks, is a ridiculous attempt to suppress free speech (which won't be successful here), and I don't think presidents should try to suppress free speech. Just my opinion. It has nothing to do with party politics. I don't think Bush should have done it, I don't think Nixon or Ford or Reagan should have done it either.

The other thing the White House might be doing here is to actually make FoxNews more relevant and important, which will be great for FoxNews, but ultimately bad for republicans.

Welp, I agree with you about the President but I also think people in leadership positions ALSO have to be held to a higher standard, ie. the CEO of a company. I dont give a pass to the VP because he's not the Pres, and down the hill as well. People in leadership positions, regardless of whether or not you agree with them or think theyre a loonbat, still may hold a leadership position and therefore have that same responsibility to know that they are in that position, have attention paid to them and their words, and need to be even more accurate. Both sides, as you say, no matter the topic at hand should be held to the same standard including the latest debate du jour be it UHC a few pages ago. On today's point we agree, Obama and the administration ought to leave the Media alone, be it the 'opinion block' or the 'news block' or the blended 'block'.

and yes Bucc, if you level one rate of rancor at one side of debate based on a facet or pillar you ought to hold the same amount of rancor for the other side in a debate that also rests on the same pillar.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Funny how when it's the NYT that's being hit neither of you complained.

Even more funny is how you totally missed the point in an attempt to make this somehow a partisan discussion.

It doesn't matter who's targeted or who's doing the targeting. Any administration who uses this tactic to target any media outlet that they consider bias against their party or their goals is looking for trouble. They're instantly increasing the viewership (or readership) of the media outlet they're trying to attack.

Also, FoxNews is a relatively dangerous target to go after. While they do lean conservative in their shows, they have a very diverse and industry-leading viewership base that is spread out between the two parties and the independent supporters. The administration basically told those viewers that they weren't smart enough to distinguish between what was partisan and what is not on FoxNews. Not a smart move.

[Flasch186]

so many things I disagree with in MBBF's last paragraph in the post above in his word choices...boy do I ever parse words. Reminds me of how he posted in the Iran thread. {head into brick wall}

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They've been labeled liberal, unpatriotic and even treasonous by some.

So your standard to judge Obama's presidency is if Republicans (even non-president Republicans) generally do something, its OK for him?

Change we can believe in!

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Even more funny is how you totally missed the point in an attempt to make this somehow a partisan discussion.

It doesn't matter who's targeted or who's doing the targeting. Any administration who uses this tactic to target any media outlet that they consider bias against their party or their goals is looking for trouble. They're instantly increasing the viewership (or readership) of the media outlet they're trying to attack.

Also, FoxNews is a relatively dangerous target to go after. While they do lean conservative in their shows, they have a very diverse and industry-leading viewership base that is spread out between the two parties and the independent supporters. The administration basically told those viewers that they weren't smart enough to distinguish between what was partisan and what is not on FoxNews. Not a smart move.

No, I understand the point, whatever Obama does is wrong. I just expect a little consistency in dealing with the past administration.

I'm surprised that you're still willing to make quantifiable predictions, but good luck. I doubt it will increase Fox's viewership measurably, but even if it does, the raw number of people watching cable news just isn't that great. Fox is much more important as a vehicle to get ideas out to other outlets and make their stories national in scope.

Fox doesn't have a diverse viewership, at least when it comes time to vote. Very few demographics are a more reliable GOP vote than Fox news viewer. In 2004 Fox viewer was a more reliable Bush vote than conservative, evangelical, gun owner, or military service. In 2008 it was a more reliable demographic than conservative, evangelical, gun owner, Bush 2004 voter, or military service. Maybe you can make an argument that independents that don't watch Fox will be turned off by these attacks, but I'm skeptical until I see some evidence.

I don't think Obama needed to make this so public, but there isn't a lot to lose at this point. Fox proudly sees itself as the Alamo against Obama and has set out to bring down his presidency. I'd prefer Obama just quietly froze them out, but this latest outrage will die down in a couple of weeks when there's a new czar to foam about.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

No, I understand the point, whatever Obama does is wrong.

And I understand your point that the president should never be criticized, if Republicans have also ever done anything wrong.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by molson

And I understand your point that the president should never be criticized, if Republicans have also ever done anything wrong.

No, I'd just like some honesty that the same critiques could have been made during the last admin but weren't.