The Thread of the 2009-2010 NBA Season

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Hm. What did the Lakers send that was anywhere near as valuable as Jefferson?

Seriously. Jefferson is a young, all-star caliber player.

the Gasol trade was a fucking joke that Stern allowed so that Kobe could get a ring and he could rekindle the "Lakers-Celtics" rivalry.

[MikeVic]

Yeah, I don't know how anyone can say the Wolves trade was worse. Al Jefferson was tearing it up before the injury.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The rumored offers revolved around Odom and Bynum.

not as good as Jefferson.

Bynum hasn't shown he can stay healthy and produce. Odom is older.

C's deal had Jefferson and also Ryan Gomes, who is playing very well for Minny (and played well for the C's also).

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

What was the actual offer?

Upon rereading, I think I might have confused the discussion. I thought that MrBug was claiming the Garnett trade was a worse rip-off than the Gasol trade (not a rumored Laker-Garnett trade).

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

What was the actual offer?

No one knows. The Wolves didn't accept the offer.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

not as good as Jefferson.

Bynum hasn't shown he can stay healthy and produce. Odom is older.

C's deal had Jefferson and also Ryan Gomes, who is playing very well for Minny (and played well for the C's also).

This deal isn't being done now, it was being done two years and change ago now. Bynum hadn't yet sustained any injuries; he was just a kid with a lot of potential who as generally asked for by just about everyone. Odom's value has actually probably gone up since then, as he has become a little more consistent now with less nightly pressure on him to perform.

Also, at that point in time, neither Bynum nor Odom were signed to extensions, but both were two seasons from even a shot at free agency.

I think Jefferson is a terrific player, and he is the best of the three now, and might be the best of the three in the long run.

That said, Jefferson by himself wasn't worth anywhere near as much as a Bynum-Odom package. I don't know if Gomes as he was valued then, a pick that became Brewer and the mish-mash of other parts would make up the difference or not.

Personally, I don't much subscribe to the McHale took the Celtics' offer over the Lakers' offer over personal loyalties theory. I actually think the Wolves came back with Odom and Bynum, and it was the Lakers that balked at that, from what I recall of the rumors.

IMO, the Wolves took the best offer they had on the table, and it's hard to say they did a "favorite" deal when they got a terrific player like Jefferson.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

While I still would take Jefferson over Bynum/Odom, I'm pretty convinced that this discussion was comparing Gasol's deal to Garnett's.

[MrBug708]

No...it was the rumored deal. Wolves picked Boston over the Lakers. What trade did the Griz turn down in favor of the Lakers? No one else offered anything for Pau Gasol

[Warhammer]

And Pau's bro is one of the best young Cs in the league.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

No...it was the rumored deal. Wolves picked Boston over the Lakers. What trade did the Griz turn down in favor of the Lakers? No one else offered anything for Pau Gasol

Oh, then i misunderstood too.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

No...it was the rumored deal. Wolves picked Boston over the Lakers. What trade did the Griz turn down in favor of the Lakers? No one else offered anything for Pau Gasol

First off, I can factually tell you that isn't true. The Grizz had multiple offers for Gasol, I know the exact particulars of one such offer. (and no, I can't tell it, but you can probably figure out which team it was from)

Second off, even if I couldn't tell you there were other offers out there, are you seriously going to insinuate that the Lakers were the knights in shining armor for the Grizz and offered something for a 7 foot, 26 year old all star power forward when nobody else would? Are you REALLY going to try to push that garbage through?

The Lakers gave up Kwame (garbage), Crittean (he was considered nothing more than a prospect at the time, useless), Aaron McKie (who was working as an unpaid assistent coach for Philly at the time he was signed to a contract on the day of the trade so it would work under the cap), two first round picks (which were next to worthless) and Marc Gasol. (who at the time was an undersized kid that most people thought wouldn't even make the league) he turned into a great player, yippeee. . . it was still a garbage trade.

It was a pure, 100% salary dump and it wouldn't have been allowed if it were any team other than the Lakers getting Gasol.

Didn't mean to start a debate about it. it's something that just doesn't sit well with me even to this day. I cannot wait until Stern is gone from the league.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by TroyF

It was a pure, 100% salary dump and it wouldn't have been allowed if it were any team other than the Lakers getting Gasol.

I keep hearing people say this, and cannot believe it.

The NBA allows trades that are pure salary dumps. Can anyone name a single instance where a trade was disallowed because it was a salary dump? This isn't even the first time a retired player was signed just to have a salary available to work under the cap.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Samdari

I keep hearing people say this, and cannot believe it.

The NBA allows trades that are pure salary dumps. Can anyone name a single instance where a trade was disallowed because it was a salary dump? This isn't even the first time a retired player was signed just to have a salary available to work under the cap.

Heck, Shaq this past offseason was a salary dump. I guess it can only happen if its to the Lakers OR the Cavs.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Heck, Shaq this past offseason was a salary dump. I guess it can only happen if its to the Lakers OR the Cavs.

There are lots of examples of trades that were salary dumps that were allowed to happen. I cannot think of a single example of a trade that was disallowed by the league office WHICH MET THE SALARY CAP rules because they judged it was unfair in value of players or impact to the league.

[heybrad]

The Grizz owner said it was a pure salary dump. The Lakers actually offered Odom originally as part of the deal and they didn't want him because of his contract.

But... as has been pointed out, when did the league ever not allow a salary dump trade?

[MikeVic]

Bah I just don't want Gasol on the Lakers.

[DaddyTorgo]

salary dump trades make the nba less fun and result in less parity

[molson]

Originally Posted by Samdari

There are lots of examples of trades that were salary dumps that were allowed to happen. I cannot think of a single example of a trade that was disallowed by the league office WHICH MET THE SALARY CAP rules because they judged it was unfair in value of players or impact to the league.

Not just the NBA, has this happened in ANY league in the last few decades?

I think really, the last thing the league offices need to do is micro-manage trades. Can you imagine the resulting conspiracy talk (the commissioner letting one trade through but not another)? I think if it's legal under the cap rules, you have to let it happen. Let the heat go to the owner/gm.

[stevew]

Sheed from Atlanta to Detroit was a nice little "fuck you" to competitive balance IIRC.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Samdari

I keep hearing people say this, and cannot believe it.

The NBA allows trades that are pure salary dumps. Can anyone name a single instance where a trade was disallowed because it was a salary dump? This isn't even the first time a retired player was signed just to have a salary available to work under the cap.

When you start signing retired players to make a trade work under the cap, it's a garbage trade. That single trade will destroy the competitive balance of the Western Conference for the next 5-8 years. It should never have been allowed to happen.

The Suns/Shaq experiment didn't work out. Shaq is a 37 year old making over 21 million dollars. A salary dump there is appropriate. A salary dump of an all star 7 footer in the prime of his career is "slightly" different. Like I said, no problem. TR Dunn is an assistant with the Rockets, Alex English is an assistant with the Raptors. I think the Nuggets should sign both TR and Alex to contracts and trade them away for Shane Battier and Chris Bosh.

Oh. . . they created a rule now to prevent that sort of thing. . . because Stern and the powers that be knew they should stop total farces from happening. . . only problem is he didn't step up for the good of the league when it happened and halted the BS. He let that one last big trade go through.

That's where I'm in the wrong though and I know it. The good of the league is to have the Lakers as an elite team. It's not the competitive way to go about it, but it's best for the NBA as a whole. Stern allowed Kings/Lakers game 6 to happen without retribution to anyone. He was damned well not going to get in the middle of a trade to swing the balance of power back to LA either.

[molson]

Some trades are clearly garbage, but the proper response to them is to make them illegal (or ideally, make them illegal beforehand). Make rules that apply to everybody uniformly.

Stern can't be in a position where he's expected to evaluate the fairness of trades on a case by case basis. That would be absolute insanity, and it would damage the perceived integrity of the league far more than a bad trade does.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

While I still would take Jefferson over Bynum/Odom, I'm pretty convinced that this discussion was comparing Gasol's deal to Garnett's.

Really? Id take Bynum by himself over Jefferson. Jefferson is a good rebounder and scorer but his defense is average at best. Bynum would put up the same numbers as Jefferson and be a beast in the middle IMO. Jefferson has inflated numbers due to playing on a team with no other weapons.

[jbergey22]

The trade turned out as a win/win for the Lakers.

They got a younger better player than KG at this point of his career without have to give up anything. Athough Im sure the Celts arent complaining much either.

The NBA is more star driven than any other league and it just shows what 2/3 stars on the same team can do.

Im still mad that McHale had 12 years to find a star around KG and was unable to do it. Pathetic.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by TroyF

When you start signing retired players to make a trade work under the cap, it's a garbage trade. That single trade will destroy the competitive balance of the Western Conference for the next 5-8 years. It should never have been allowed to happen.

The Suns/Shaq experiment didn't work out. Shaq is a 37 year old making over 21 million dollars. A salary dump there is appropriate. A salary dump of an all star 7 footer in the prime of his career is "slightly" different. Like I said, no problem. TR Dunn is an assistant with the Rockets, Alex English is an assistant with the Raptors. I think the Nuggets should sign both TR and Alex to contracts and trade them away for Shane Battier and Chris Bosh.

Oh. . . they created a rule now to prevent that sort of thing. . . because Stern and the powers that be knew they should stop total farces from happening. . . only problem is he didn't step up for the good of the league when it happened and halted the BS. He let that one last big trade go through.

That's where I'm in the wrong though and I know it. The good of the league is to have the Lakers as an elite team. It's not the competitive way to go about it, but it's best for the NBA as a whole. Stern allowed Kings/Lakers game 6 to happen without retribution to anyone. He was damned well not going to get in the middle of a trade to swing the balance of power back to LA either.

What's the rule?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Really? Id take Bynum by himself over Jefferson. Jefferson is a good rebounder and scorer but his defense is average at best. Bynum would put up the same numbers as Jefferson and be a beast in the middle IMO. Jefferson has inflated numbers due to playing on a team with no other weapons.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Take it from someone that watches Jefferson on a consistent basis. Over rated.

[stevew]

You guys do realize that if the situation presents itself, the Cavs will sign and trade wally at some point this year. He made 14M last year so it is possible that basically any player in play could be headed to Cleveland. If it comes down to the Raps being far out of contention in February I could see Bosh and a crap contract going to cleveland for JJ, Picks and wally. Just as a example of course.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by stevew

You guys do realize that if the situation presents itself, the Cavs will sign and trade wally at some point this year. He made 14M last year so it is possible that basically any player in play could be headed to Cleveland. If it comes down to the Raps being far out of contention in February I could see Bosh and a crap contract going to cleveland for JJ, Picks and wally. Just as a example of course.

Why would someone trade someone great in their last year for someone crappy in their last year? And the Cavs are too good for the picks to be worth something.

I guess maybe if a team is convinced it has no chance at the playoffs or keeping its star player and also happens to really love Hickson's potential, well, then maybe. But other than that, what would be the point?

It would make more sense if Wally was shipped away for a very good player with a lot of time left on his contract. That's a deal a team would be inclined to do.

[stevew]

Sure. I guess my main point was that wally will get overpaid this year to facilitate the Cavs getting s player for 10 cents on the dollar.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by heybrad

The Grizz owner said it was a pure salary dump. The Lakers actually offered Odom originally as part of the deal and they didn't want him because of his contract.

I'd love to see where Heisley was quoted saying that. Much was made of the trade by management here regarding the gaining of Marc Gasol, and the two 1st rounders.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by TroyF

When you start signing retired players to make a trade work under the cap, it's a garbage trade. That single trade will destroy the competitive balance of the Western Conference for the next 5-8 years. It should never have been allowed to happen.

I wasn't trying to comment on whether or not the league should have allowed that, or any, trade.

I was just trying to disabuse the ridiculous notion that "if it wasn't the Lakers, this trade would never have been allowed" The league has very specific rules for trades, and if a submitted trade meets them, the league does not overrule them. Sure, signing people off the street to create a matching salary is patently ridiculous, but it was legal, and other teams had done it before the Gasol trade. It would have been allowed regardless of who the principals were.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and while this was clearly an attempt to shed salary, there were other factors. Gasol was very unhappy in Memphis, starting to be a malcontent (bitching about how much he wanted out) and putting forth questionable efforts.

[Warhammer]

Pau very much needed to get out of Memphis. Becoming a malcontent and putting out questionable effort on a young team is a cardinal sin.

[molson]

Just imagine if Stern reviewed all trades on a case-by-case basis, allowing some and overruling others.

Every time a deal improving large market team was allowed, and every time a deal improving a small market team was voided, the conspiracy talk would be more unbearable than it already is.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by brassmonkey32

You must be a Lakers Hater.

No trade has been stopped unless the players don't pass their physical.

He was rather pro-Lakers until they beat the Nuggets last year in the WCF

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

I'd love to see where Heisley was quoted saying that. Much was made of the trade by management here regarding the gaining of Marc Gasol, and the two 1st rounders.

Heisley's 'the guy making decisions'» The Commercial Appeal

There is the stuff on the Pau Gasol trade

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Marc Gasol has turned out to be a very nice player, but I don't really remember him being positioned as the key to the trade in any way.

[MrBug708]

I believe it was the rights to Marc Gasol. But then again, Crittanden was supposed to be a good prospect so that ended up being a good sticking point

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

He was rather pro-Lakers until they beat the Nuggets last year in the WCF

Huh? I'm not now and have never been a Laker "hater"

If I "hate" one team in the league, it would be the Utah Jazz. (and as you can probably guess, that has little to do with them winning a lot of championships)

As for you bug, I didn't even expect the Nuggets to get into the conference finals last year, much less win it. I predicted at the start of the series that it would be Lakers in either 5 or 7 games. (I didn't expect Denver to lay an egg at home in game 6)

I just HATE that trade. It still bothers me to this day. The competitive balance of an entire conference was destroyed for a 5-8 year period. And it's not like we didn't all know what was going to happen the second the deal was made either. Imagine a trade sending Lebron to Orlando for Brandon Bass and NOBODY else. You think anyone in the East has a chance for the next 5 years without lots of knees blowing out in Magic games? That's what this trade did.

I can't stand it and I can't stand the ridiculous notion that the Lakers were the ONLY team who offered anything for a 7 foot all star in the prime of his career. The assertation is ridiculous.

[heybrad]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I just HATE that trade. It still bothers me to this day. The competitive balance of an entire conference was destroyed for a 5-8 year period. And it's not like we didn't all know what was going to happen the second the deal was made either. Imagine a trade sending Lebron to Orlando for Brandon Bass and NOBODY else. You think anyone in the East has a chance for the next 5 years without lots of knees blowing out in Magic games? That's what this trade did.

I can't stand it and I can't stand the ridiculous notion that the Lakers were the ONLY team who offered anything for a 7 foot all star in the prime of his career. The assertation is ridiculous.

Yes, that would be an odd trade for a championship caliber team like Cleveland to trade their star away to another championship caliber team. It's not at all what happened in this case. It was a bad team dumping salary. Good luck trying to match salaries for that trade as well.

And you are correct that there were multiple offers to Memphis for Gasol and Heisley outlines his reasons pretty well in the article above on why he didn't think they fit his plan. Criticize his plan all you want. It's his plan.

[TroyF]

Onto other things:

The Blazers had a monumental step up last night. Bayless was sensational. They badly needed to get that win with the four road games they have coming up. I think it's clear that their best lineup is Bayless, Roy, Webster, Aldridge, Pryzbilla, with Bayless and Roy splitting the ball handling duties about evenly.

In other news, Michael Beasley is developing into one hell of a player. I think people forget he's only 20 years old. I think he's an all star by the time he's 23 or 24.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Huh? I'm not now and have never been a Laker "hater"

If I "hate" one team in the league, it would be the Utah Jazz. (and as you can probably guess, that has little to do with them winning a lot of championships)

As for you bug, I didn't even expect the Nuggets to get into the conference finals last year, much less win it. I predicted at the start of the series that it would be Lakers in either 5 or 7 games. (I didn't expect Denver to lay an egg at home in game 6)

I just HATE that trade. It still bothers me to this day. The competitive balance of an entire conference was destroyed for a 5-8 year period. And it's not like we didn't all know what was going to happen the second the deal was made either. Imagine a trade sending Lebron to Orlando for Brandon Bass and NOBODY else. You think anyone in the East has a chance for the next 5 years without lots of knees blowing out in Magic games? That's what this trade did.

I can't stand it and I can't stand the ridiculous notion that the Lakers were the ONLY team who offered anything for a 7 foot all star in the prime of his career. The assertation is ridiculous.

Come now, I think Gasol is good, but he isn't Lebron good

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Onto other things:

The Blazers had a monumental step up last night. Bayless was sensational. They badly needed to get that win with the four road games they have coming up. I think it's clear that their best lineup is Bayless, Roy, Webster, Aldridge, Pryzbilla, with Bayless and Roy splitting the ball handling duties about evenly.

In other news, Michael Beasley is developing into one hell of a player. I think people forget he's only 20 years old. I think he's an all star by the time he's 23 or 24.

I dont think anyone questions his offense but his defense is so bad at times they cant afford to keep him on the court. He really needs to step it up and become that 2nd good player on that team or Wade is out the door.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Heisley's 'the guy making decisions'» The Commercial Appeal

There is the stuff on the Pau Gasol trade

Thanks. The way that was spun locally was that Memphis was trying to get younger guys, Chicago didn't want to divide their core, so we went to LA. At least locally, Marc Gasol was played up as a key part of the trade (the locals had been able to see him progress through HS, etc.). Crittenden IIRC outplayed Conally, but was never really given a shot here. The extra picks were played up as a big deal for either trade bait, or additional players.

You also have to remember, Pau is very soft. He had no big in the middle that would keep the other team from muscling him around. Pau is not a good #1 player, however, he is a stellar #2 man.

[MrBug708]

He's also the best triangle player for Phil Jackson. In related news, the Lakers and Pau have almost agreed to a 3 year extension with the Lakers

[DaddyTorgo]

i would probably mind Pau less if he'd fucking shave. He looks like a fucking doofus with the scruffy facial hair and the floppy mid-length hair.

[MrBug708]

Cant wait til they retire his jersey

[whomario]

First things first : Jonathan Bender is back in the NBA !! I was highly intrigued with him back when he entered the league but he was really injury prone and retired at like 25 (and played only 9 games the 2 years prior and 21 the year before that) in 06. Had been working on a comeback all the time with rehab and then intensified it a year ago. Now the Knicks signed him and he played last night allready and played great to top that, 9 points in 15 minutes off the bench.
Really happy for the guy, great story

Originally Posted by TroyF

Onto other things:

The Blazers had a monumental step up last night. Bayless was sensational. They badly needed to get that win with the four road games they have coming up. I think it's clear that their best lineup is Bayless, Roy, Webster, Aldridge, Pryzbilla, with Bayless and Roy splitting the ball handling duties about evenly.
.

What imo will benefit the Blazers a lot is when they get Batum back. He didn´t play a ton, but kind of stabilized things and improved a lot over the summer judging by his play for France (even with that shoulder injury being imminent allready) . Plus Fernandez is out and was hurt earlier before deciding to opt for that little surgery.
But it´s pretty clear that Blake needs to go, you can´t bring 2 PG-sized and a smallish SG (Rudy is 6´5 but a very thin 6´5) off the bench and play them decent minutes.
And yes, by now i don´t think Miller will fit but he´ll be pretty much untradeable. I maintain that it´s him being misused and Roy failing to adjust more than anything else though ...
Yesterdays win, that was on Phoenix, they simply folded in the 4th with no one able to offer relieve for captain canada. Richardson was out along with Barbosa, which is huge for a team relying solely on their perimeter guys to score and create.

Not having any solid backup-bigs will hurt them as well. I mean, Howard is ok and a great veteran, but him as your main big off the bench at this stage of his career ? Outlaw will be back, but he´s a 4 by very generous judgement ...

Really don´t get their style of play compared to their roster makeup. It´s been a bit better with Bayless getting minutes, but still with that roster (small on nearly every position) they´d need to run more and defend more agressively.



Other things of note :

-Omri Casspi with back-to-bacxk 20 point games as a starter. Clear-cut starter material. Seriously, the guy is so polished offensively allready and not half bad defensively as well aside from some timing issues

-Kevin Love is an amazing rebounder.

-Philly beats Boston with Iverson sitting out Elton Brand with a throwback effort : 23/8 in 26 minutes off the bench.

- Chris Paul is amazing, Last night he scored or assisted 32 of the Hornets 40 FGs Peja can still stroke that ball, albeit really nothing else at this point.

-Ariza finally with a game with good shot selcetion. His amount of 3 pointers was ridiculous the last couple of games. But then again someone has to take them. The Rockets regularly have 2,3 guys with really bad shooting nights and still win, individually and as a team they are not efficient but since every game also 2,3 guys get hot it works.

-T-Mac is worlds away from being a real contributor. But i like how he doesnßt force it at all, pushes the ball, makes the extra pass and runs the floor.

- Nowitzki and Landry with a pretty nasty collision, both players didn´t return.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

You also have to remember, Pau is very soft. He had no big in the middle that would keep the other team from muscling him around. Pau is not a good #1 player, however, he is a stellar #2 man.

Agree for the most part on him being a much better #2. But he's still one of the top 10 players in the league.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

That trade wasnt even as bad as the Garnett trade to Minnesota. The Griz took the first deal offered. The T-Wolves did it to help the C's

I don't know how you can say that. Al Jefferson is much better than anyone that went to Memphis in that deal. He's a perennial All-Star who was building his way up to being one of the best PF in the league. He was averaging 23 and 11 before tearing his ACL.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

No...it was the rumored deal. Wolves picked Boston over the Lakers. What trade did the Griz turn down in favor of the Lakers? No one else offered anything for Pau Gasol

The Bulls offered Ben Gordon and Andres Nocioni for him the summer before that deal went down. I know the Grizzlies wanted Deng in the deal in some form though.

In any event, the trade was real fishy from the start. Wonder if there were some backroom deals in place to help get Pau to the Los Angeles market. I just can't fathom that Memphis couldn't have gotten more for a top 10 player.

I'd add the same can be said for Minnesota although I don't think the deal was bad for them. I just wouldn't be surprised if there was some prodding behind the scenes to make it happen. These are small market teams that were hurting financially. The NBA has always had a WWE element to it.