2007-08 NBA Playoffs thread

[Noop]

Originally Posted by molson

Very true, but I think there's been a little too much praise for him in a series where he's shooting 32%.

Yet his team was able to take the number one seed to game 7. LeBron is without a doubt in my mind one of the top 2 players in the NBA. Once he develops a jumper and gets a supporting cast he will dominate.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Noop

Yet his team was able to take the number one seed to

Aren't you in the "Celtics suck" camp? You can't have it both ways.

Lebron sucked.

If what people said about the Celtics in this thread is true, Lebron is a disaster and needs to get the hell out of Cleveland.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by molson

Aren't you in the "Celtics suck" camp? You can't have it both ways.

Lebron sucked.

I am not in the Celtics sucks camp.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Noop

I am not in the Celtics sucks camp.

My bad

[Radii]

Pearce fouling Lebron on the prior possession when he was already shooting, and leaving the 3 point shooter with a 6 point lead and so little time left are just fundamental basketball mistakes that I am surprised to see any NBA player/team make at the end of a game.

Good FT shooting will always win those close games though, grats Celtics.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Radii

Pearce fouling Lebron on the prior possession when he was already shooting, and leaving the 3 point shooter with a 6 point lead and so little time left are just fundamental basketball mistakes that I am surprised to see any NBA player/team make at the end of a game.

Good FT shooting will always win those close games though, grats Celtics.

I agree 100% but Pierce was the man today.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Same decision he got criticized for last year against Detroit. The only difference is his guy made the shot this time.

It wasn't a 6 point game last year. The situation here dictated that a 3 pointer was mandatory. Not the case last year.

[RainMaker]

Lebron's problem is just like McGrady's, he shoots too many 3-pointers. Still, I'm shocked at how bad the supporting cast for Lebron is. I'm guessing he can't wait to get out of there.

[kingnebwsu]

The Cavs are a definite lottery team without LeBron. They may even be bottom-5 in the league without him.

[Brian Swartz]

Very true, but I think there's been a little too much praise for him in a series where he's shooting 32%.

HE blew this series for Cleveland with his shitty shooting, and that's not the media line for whatever reason.

LeBron James eFG% for the series: 46.84%, 53 assists
Rest of Cavs: 50.29%, 71 assists

When you consider that LeBron got them a lot of the open shots they did get and that pretty much nobody else on the team can reliably create their own offense as evidenced by the assists, it's a little silly to say LeBron blew the series.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

LeBron James eFG% for the series: 46.84%, 53 assists
Rest of Cavs: 50.29%, 71 assists

When you consider that LeBron got them a lot of the open shots they did get and that pretty much nobody else on the team can reliably create their own offense as evidenced by the assists, it's a little silly to say LeBron blew the series.

Even after today, he shot 35% from the field in the series after shooting 48% in the regular season, and he turned the ball over at a much higher rate than he did during the season. Scoring points is great but a missed shot is practically a turnover.

It's a given that the rest of the team ain't great, but if he played as well in this series as he did during the season they probably would have won. That's blowing the series to me.

[Brian Swartz]

Expecting a player -- any player -- to put up the same numbers against an elite team focusing their defense on him as they did against average teams over the course of a season is ridiculous IMO. The whole point of showing the series stats was to point out that the rest of the team didn't play great either. They missed shots at almost the same rate as LeBron did, so it's as much their fault as it is his.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Expecting a player -- any player -- to put up the same numbers against an elite team focusing their defense on him as they did against average teams over the course of a season is ridiculous IMO. The whole point of showing the series stats was to point out that the rest of the team didn't play great either. They missed shots at almost the same rate as LeBron did, so it's as much their fault as it is his.

When the team is built around you and you make most of the $ you're ultimately responsible. You'll get the praise if you win and the blame if you lose. KG would be getting hammered right now for his standard big-game disappearing act if the Cavs had pulled it out.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Noop

LeBron James is a way better player then Wilkins ever was or could be...

QFT. Anyone who can't see that is blind.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

QFT. Anyone who can't see that is blind.

Nobody said anything differently. I just said Lebron's game 7 tonight (and series) wasn't as good as Nique's in '88. And it's funny to me to compare Lebron's performance in this series to Jordan's or Nique's when they were on the way up in the playoffs because Lebron didn't meet expectations here. Lebron barely showed up until game 3, I think the hype is a little much when he shot like crap.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by molson

Nobody said anything differently. I just said Lebron's game 7 tonight (and series) wasn't as good as Nique's in '88. And it's funny to me to compare Lebron's performance in this series to Jordan's or Nique's when they were on the way up in the playoffs because Lebron didn't meet expectations here.

I was responding more to SirFozzie than your post. Nique in 88 was excellent, but even with Nique's accomplishments in 88, he didn't create like LeBron does. He never has had the assists numbers of LeBron, he didn't rebound as well as LeBron did either (except in 95 when he concentrated on rebounding with Boston.)

Also, while LeBron had a poor shooting series, unless I'm mistaken he shot around 50% tonight from the field (although the FT misses down the stretch were bad.)

[Eaglesfan27]

Dola -

About an hour ago, I got offered a ticket to tomorrow night's Game 7 at the New Orleans' Arena. The only catch is that it is in the far corner, not a great seat. I'm guessing people here will say I should go anyway? I'm not a huge Hornet's fan, but I've enjoyed the games I've gone to when the Sixers have been in town. Not to mention, it is hard to pass up the chance to go to a Game 7.

[Noop]

Molson I am not sure I understand why your being overly critical of LeBron. So side question for you who is at fault for New England losing the Super Bowl?

[Noop]

You should go because Game 7 have a tendency to begin out great performances in people.

[Groundhog]

I'd go - but then, being over here in Australia, I'd catch a Knicks-Grizzlies preseason game if I could.

[Brian Swartz]

When the team is built around you and you make most of the $ you're ultimately responsible. You'll get the praise if you win and the blame if you lose. KG would be getting hammered right now for his standard big-game disappearing act if the Cavs had pulled it out.

If you expect the same thing out of two players regardless of differences in their supporting casts, you're not making sense IMO. I think it's obvious to most people who saw the game that there was a rather large difference in what happened to Boston when Pierce didn't have the ball, as opposed to what happened to Cleveland when James didn't have it. If that's a non-issue and the final result is all that matters, let's fire every player, coach, and GM on every team that doesn't win the title every season.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

If you expect the same thing out of two players regardless of differences in their supporting casts, you're not making sense IMO. I think it's obvious to most people who saw the game that there was a rather large difference in what happened to Boston when Pierce didn't have the ball, as opposed to what happened to Cleveland when James didn't have it. If that's a non-issue and the final result is all that matters, let's fire every player, coach, and GM on every team that doesn't win the title every season.

Exactly. LeBron was the best player on the court, but he just doesn't have the supporting cast to consistently beat a team like the Celtics. They have too many good players as well as a few great ones in Pierce and Garnett. Everything is easier for Pierce and Garnett now because they have each other as well as a bunch of solid players around them.

[Groundhog]

It's easy to forget that Boston has three of the best players at their positions in their starting 5.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

It's easy to forget that Boston has three of the best players at their positions in their starting 5.

I don't think Ray Allen and best really qualify anymore

[Groundhog]

He's not the Ray Allen of old (though would probably score more on most other rosters), but he still does a lot of good things outside of scoring for the Celtics. But still, 2 of the best at their pos. and a very good SG is still pretty nice.

[stevew]

Hopefully they'll be able to do something this summer with 27m in expiring deals. I didn't really expect much out of the Cavs after they played pretty mediocre after the trade deadline.

Good series, wish it would have ended differently

Nice to see some of you decided to pay attention to the Celtics this year, in spite of last years epic debacle.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

If you expect the same thing out of two players regardless of differences in their supporting casts, you're not making sense IMO. I think it's obvious to most people who saw the game that there was a rather large difference in what happened to Boston when Pierce didn't have the ball, as opposed to what happened to Cleveland when James didn't have it. If that's a non-issue and the final result is all that matters, let's fire every player, coach, and GM on every team that doesn't win the title every season.

I agree with the spirit of your point if I was saying something different. But in THIS series, I didn't think Lebron was that great, and he'll take zero heat for it. Just my opinion. You can be great in a losing effort, and I just don't think he was great in this series. I think he underachieved, compared with this prior performances with this same supporting cast. I know his supporting cast sucks, they always have, but he still could have won this series.

[Groundhog]

I think you could swap LeBron with Michael Jordan in his prime on that Cleveland roster and the Cavs still don't advance.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Noop

Molson I am not sure I understand why your being overly critical of LeBron. So side question for you who is at fault for New England losing the Super Bowl?

Now why did you have to go and bring up that memory?

I mainly blame Belichick for that loss, and my criticisms of him would be similar to those of Lebron here. (The coach/player comparison is flawed of course, but if it was EVER remotely possible, this is the context, since football is a coach's game and basketball is a player's game).

Belichick is arguably the face of the Pats over Brady and I thought he screwed that game up bigtime. (And of course the Giants were awesome).

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by stevew

Nice to see some of you decided to pay attention to the Celtics this year, in spite of last years epic debacle.

I was waiting for someone to come out with the "OMG BANDWAGON!!1!!" nonsense.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Dola -

About an hour ago, I got offered a ticket to tomorrow night's Game 7 at the New Orleans' Arena. The only catch is that it is in the far corner, not a great seat. I'm guessing people here will say I should go anyway? I'm not a huge Hornet's fan, but I've enjoyed the games I've gone to when the Sixers have been in town. Not to mention, it is hard to pass up the chance to go to a Game 7.

To me it would definitely come down to fringe costs... how far is it, how much is parking, how early do you have to leave work, etc.

Also, I assume you'd be able to go with the owner(s) of the tickets and not by yourself?

Anyways, what'd you decide?

[Deattribution]

molson,

By your definition Tim Duncun sucks too, because he's played average throughout the series on the road. So Lebron sucks, Boozer, Tracy McGrady , Dwight Howard , Ray Allen, Joe Johnson, Pierce, Nowitzki, and Nash all suck. Because obviously nobody was playing defense on them, and they just couldn't score 30+ every game.

And news flash, LBJ doesn't make the most money on his team, Ben Wallace does, and he's got two other 10 million + players on the court (compared to his 13) who suck too.

Too bad they didn't have you on the court tonight, and the field for the superbowl, I'm sure you could school sucky Lebron in basketball and teach Belichick a few things about coaching.

Watch the Detroit series, I'm sure you'll see lots of defense - then if Boston loses maybe you can tell KG, Allen and Pierce how they suck too.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

To me it would definitely come down to fringe costs... how far is it, how much is parking, how early do you have to leave work, etc.

Also, I assume you'd be able to go with the owner(s) of the tickets and not by yourself?

Anyways, what'd you decide?

I'll have to take off work 2 hours early (I usually work until 6 PM on Mondays) which is the biggest downside. I don't like cancelling patients at the last second..

That being said, I decided to go. I've never been to a game 7 and it should be a great game. I'm going with the other owner, just two tickets. I live about 70 miles from the arena. I'll drive to his house and then he'll drive us to the game, but I'll pick up parking as well to thank him for getting this ticket cheap (his brother works for the ticket distributor.) I'm paying 35 dollars for the ticket.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

Too bad they didn't have you on the court tonight, and the field for the superbowl, I'm sure you could school sucky Lebron in basketball and teach Belichick a few things about coaching.

OK, so nobody can criticize a pro athlete unless they themselves are a better athlete? You're seriously going to play that card?

You want to honestly tell me you've never said a pro athlete had a bad day or sucked?

Should we just shut down the internet then?

If James' shooting was slightly above "wretched", the Cavs would have won. It's just an opinion. Feel free to disagree without getting all dramatic.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by molson

OK, so nobody can criticize a pro athlete unless they themselves are a better athlete? You're seriously going to play that card?

You want to honestly tell me you've never said a pro athlete had a bad day or sucked?

Should we just shut down the internet then?

If James' shooting was slightly above "wretched", the Cavs would have won. It's just an opinion. Feel free to disagree without getting all dramatic.

You act as if Lebron just tanked the games and he sucks because of it which couldn't be further from the truth. They played excellent defense against him, the best he's seen all year - and it effected his play. Big surprise. He could of done much worse.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

You act as if Lebron just tanked the games and he sucks because of it which couldn't be further from the truth. They played excellent defense against him, the best he's seen all year - and it effected his play. Big surprise. He could of done much worse.

They watched a tape of how San Antonio defended him last year.

Of course, that kind of '1-player-targetted-by-5-guys' defense only works if nobody else steps up.

I don't put all the blame on the other four guys though (and certainly none on LeBron, which is ridiculous IMO). The Cavs play some pretty good D, but on the other end of the court... boy. Stagnant would be the kindest way to put it. A few plays that don't involve a couple of meaningless passes before isolating LeBron would be nice. The Cavs have some shooters now, the problem is that they just don't run anything for them. LeBron finds the open guys once he's doubled or drawn the D in on a drive, but that's the only time guys like Wally and co. get good looks.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I was waiting for someone to come out with the "OMG BANDWAGON!!1!!" nonsense.

Got it. As usual the Boston faithful never lost their support for the C's. The bandwagon phenomena happens in other, lesser fanbases, not in New England. Sorry, forgot you guys are so good.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I was waiting for someone to come out with the "OMG BANDWAGON!!1!!" nonsense.

Maybe not you, but like 95% of the Boston cockjockeys never gave a fuck about the Celtics for the last 5 years and probably couldn't name any player other than Pierce.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Got it. As usual the Boston faithful never lost their support for the C's. The bandwagon phenomena happens in other, lesser fanbases, not in New England. Sorry, forgot you guys are so good.

What the hell are you talking about? I have nothing to do with New England other than rooting for the Celtics. I hate the Patriots with a passion and would stand up and cheer if that franchise folded tomorrow.

I wasn't saying Celtics fans were better or worse than any other fans. I just think it's a silly thing to bring up and one of my pet peeves during sports discussons. It was annoying when Bibby said it (especially since most of the people that attended the playoff series needed to ask for directions to Philips Arena), and it's annoying now. I doubt Cavs were selling out seats in 02-03.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

What the hell are you talking about? I have nothing to do with New England other than rooting for the Celtics. I hate the Patriots with a passion and would stand up and cheer if that franchise folded tomorrow.

I wasn't saying Celtics fans were better or worse than any other fans. I just think it's a silly thing to bring up and one of my pet peeves during sports discussons. It was annoying when Bibby said it (especially since most of the people that attended the playoff series needed to ask for directions to Philips Arena), and it's annoying now. I doubt Cavs were selling out seats in 02-03.

The point is that you were "waiting for someone to come up with the bandwagon nonsense" so you could rip it or "roll eyes" at it away, like it is something to scoff it or that doesn't exist for Celtics fans. If that's not what you meant, well, you need to work on your language skills (and I suspect your language skills are just fine).

Your message was that accusing anyone who is a C fan of bandwagonism is ridiculous, and I find the idea that the Celtic fanbase is somehow devoid of bandwagonism to be one of the most absurd concepts I have heard uttered by a sports fan on this board in some time, and it smacks of the type of elitism I hear often from New England fans. You may not be a New Englander, but choose carefully the company you keep, no?

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by stevew

Maybe not you, but like 95% of the Boston cockjockeys never gave a fuck about the Celtics for the last 5 years and probably couldn't name any player other than Pierce.

Shrug. I can't speak for most Celtics fans since I live in Atlanta, but it seems like most of the people posting in this thread have been talking about them for a while. Hell, I remember making a post wondering if the Blount for Olowokandi trade would help us. Heh.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The point is that you were "waiting for someone to come up with the bandwagon nonsense" so you could rip it or "roll eyes" at it away, like it is something to scoff it or that doesn't exist for Celtics fans. If that's not what you meant, well, you need to work on your language skills (and I suspect your language skills are just fine).

Your message was that accusing anyone who is a C fan of bandwagonism is ridiculous, and I find the idea that the Celtic fanbase is somehow devoid of bandwagonism to be one of the most absurd concepts I have heard uttered by a sports fan on this board in some time, and it smacks of the type of elitism I hear often from New England fans. You may not be a New Englander, but choose carefully the company you keep, no?

Nope, I never said it didn't exist for Celtics fans. I think it's "nonsense" because it exists for fans of most teams, and the comment I responded to seemed directed to the C's fans in this thread, and not C's fans in general. In that context, I do find it to be inaccurate as I said in my post to steve. I especially find it hypocritical to come from Hawks or Cavs fans for reasons I've stated in earlier posts.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Nope, I never said it didn't exist for Celtics fans. I think it's "nonsense" because it exists for fans of most teams, and the comment I responded to seemed directed to the C's fans in this thread, and not C's fans in general. In that context, I do find it to be inaccurate as I said in my post to steve. I especially find it hypocritical to come from Hawks or Cavs fans for reasons I've stated in earlier posts.

I am of the opinion you don't know enough about the C fans in this thread to say for sure how much they fit into stevew's comment, and I would guess they are as representative a slice of a fanbase as anyone, and there are doubtless members here that have paid the Celtics a whole lot more attention this year than last year, or the previous five or ten years. I don't know either, but I have precedent to back me up--it is entirely likely the status quo is just as true here.

stevew is a Cavs fan, so you can take it up with him if you view him as a bandwagon fan, but I am unattached to either team, so I hope you will view this as fairer, more unbiased (or at least less hypocritical) commentary.

[BishopMVP]

Few different points to hit here.

Originally Posted by Noop

The Celtics are a team of fortune.

-This is the 2nd most ridiculous thing in the thread. The Celtics are my team, but during the regular season, they weren't my favorite team to watch - that would be Golden State - because it was generally "ugly", defensive basketball. After 66 wins in the regular season and 8 more in the playoffs, those missed shots stop being luck and start being good defense.

- The most ridiculous thing is Molson's claim that LeBron is to blame for the Cavs loss. He needs to work on his outside shot, and he really needs to stop settling for/shooting 3's (game 6 vs. the Pistons aside), but as others said, without LeBron that's a lottery team at best.

- I don't know why this bandwagon talk came up in this thread (or why lately it always seems to be mentioned whenever Boston sports teams do well) but can we just leave that out of this? There's obviously a huge number of bandwagon Pink Hat fans for every successfull team, but this is FOFC, not the MBTA. There's 3-4 Celtics fans posting in this thread, but we've all been C's fans as far back as I remember. We just didn't post heavily in past year's Playoffs Threads because of the whole lottery thing.

- While this might finally have been the game that gets Pierce mentioned with the other elite talents, was I the only one disappointed with his offensive effort in the 2nd half? I'm sure he was tired, but most possessions he would walk up after everyone else and stand 5 feet beyond the 3-pt line unless/until he was passed the ball. Considering he was being guarded by LeBron, the best(only) offensive player for the Cavs, allowing him to rest for 10-15 seconds each time is inexcusable. I hope the decision not to ever run Pierce through off-ball screens was Doc's, but it was still quite annoying to see a player on fire with 35+ points standing around while Rajon Rondo, PJ Brown and Eddie House dominated the ball.

[Jas_lov]

The bandwagon argument is ridiculous and irrelevant. The Cavs lost and their fans can't bash the Celtics since the Celtics just defeated the Cavs so they bash the Celtics fans and label all of them here as bandwagoners. Every team has them to it's silly to cry about it and it just makes you look like a sore loser. But the Celtics sucked last year! Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Anyway, we now have the inevitable matchup between the Celtics and Pistons. Should be another excellent series. How effective will Paul Pierce be with Tayshaun Prince guarding him? How hurt is Billups and will he be able to take advantage of his size over Rondo? Hamilton vs. Allen, KG vs. Sheed, McDyess, Maxil. I can't wait! I'd like to see Spurs vs. Lakers in the West. I've got a feeling the Spurs will come out on top tonight in New Orleans.

[Sgran]

Guys, there seems to be some kind of conspiracy. Last night (I'm in europe) I thought I was watching Game 7 of the Celtics-Cavs series. What I saw was one of the ugliest contests ever. One of the "teams" did nothing on offense other than set an occassional pick for their designated scorer, who took so many bad shots that I was laughing. This morning I checked the news and apparently there was an "epic" battle. Where was this game? Epic? An epic thug-fest where some guy wearing Kevin Garnett's jersey hid from the action and then choked on a jumper that could have sealed the deal. Some guy who was supposed to be Ray Allen made a cameo appearance and picked up a bunch of fouls before the real Ray Allen showed up at the end to make a pair of free throws. And the King? Are you kidding me? Can we please, PLEASE get this guy a coach. I think Tim Floyd could have coached Cleaveland to a sweep. The only guy who played well was Pierce, who was great. Reading the media's fawning over this game makes me question all of the "great" games I never saw. Does anyone have any stats on Lebron's pass to shoot ratio? I think it might have approached Jordan's in the classic game against the Celtics. Hmmm, against the Celtics.
My favorite in yesterday's game was when Cleveland came out of a timeout. I had already been joking with my friends about "i wonder who's going to shoot this time," and there was Lebron in a set play after a time-out, and I said "no, really, he's going to pass this time because Mike brown just drew up a play." Lebron made two pathetic fakes like he was passing and launched again. And at the end the game was close so it was a classic. Thank God Cleveland lost.

[stevew]

I think they were still pissed off about the Harper for Ferry trade.

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by stevew

Maybe not you, but like 95% of the Boston cockjockeys never gave a fuck about the Celtics for the last 5 years and probably couldn't name any player other than Pierce.

How many Cavs fans gave a shit before LeBron came along?

[Logan]

This thread is about as entertaining as the last two minutes of a regular season NBA game.

[molson]

And for the Celtics.

2006-07 690,576 16,843
2005-06 692,513 16,890
2004-05 656,081 16,001
2003-04 664,248 16,201
2002-03 709,049 17,294
2001-02 659,751 16,091
2000-01 629,201 15,346
1999-00 683,608 16,673

The last time C's fans were uninterested as Cavs were in '02-'03 was 1975.