2007 NFL Week 2 Thread

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Yup. I think you and I are on the same page here.

I admit, at first I had a bit of moral outrage. Me being an Indy fan was probably part of it.

The more I have let it stew the more I come down on the fact that the Pats cheated, they were punished in a reasonable way (you can argue going up or down a bit, but to me it was in the ballpark), and a message was sent. All was a appropriate. For the impact on their "legacy" - for me it is minimal. I have a hard time believing, now that my initial reaction is gone, that this had a significant impact. It had an impact for sure - and hell, could have even won them a playoff game. But as a hear more and more - they still had to make the plays, make the throws, catch the ball, throw the blocks, etc.

Now - I do agree with Troy that IF it is proven that there was more shenanigans going on involving micing defenders, jamming headsets, giving radios to defenders, etc that we're in an entirely different ballpark. However, I have not heard of any compelling evidence about that behavior.

I wonder how many outside the media feel more strongly about this topic than what you describe at this point.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I wonder how many outside the media feel more strongly about this topic than what you describe at this point.

I think you're implying that at this stage most people probably feel similarly to me? if so - I'd tend to agree.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I think you're implying that at this stage most people probably feel similarly to me? if so - I'd tend to agree.

Yes, I got to thinking about this morning when I was reading Peter King's article and some guy on Yahoo! where both spent a good portion of the column bashing Bill Belichick. If none of the other allegations turn out to be true, I wonder when the tipping point of media overkill v. general public desire to move on will be reached.

[Honolulu_Blue]

It seems like our NFL Week 2 thread has gone the way of Football Night In America, very little game analysis and a total preoccupation with "Spygate."

[SirFozzie]

that's because the games are over, of course.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

It seems like our NFL Week 2 thread has gone the way of Football Night In America, very little game analysis and a total preoccupation with "Spygate."

Ok, I'll throw out some football related discussion:

Norv Turner - worst personnel decision by a 14-2 football team in the history of the game? Discuss.

[SirFozzie]

The Norv Turner face at 24-0 was a thing of beauty.

It's a face that I imagine looks like somebody who's just been given a $250,000 Lamborghini after running off the road and ruining it.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

It seems like our NFL Week 2 thread has gone the way of Football Night In America, very little game analysis and a total preoccupation with "Spygate."

Yeah, it's a shame that many people will forget about the shootout in Cleveland, 2-0 records in Detroit, San Francisco, and Houston, and Mike Shanahan's ninja timeout. With that said, did anybody anywhere in the entire country even bother to watch the Packers-Giants game? Anybody? I guess Archie wanted to see Eli, and I guess Pam Oliver wanted to keep stalking Brett Favre, but besides them?

Anybody?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

It seems like our NFL Week 2 thread has gone the way of Football Night In America, very little game analysis and a total preoccupation with "Spygate."

I can't even explain how much that show sucks.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I can't even explain how much that show sucks.

omg rkmsuf at a loss for words this is new

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Ok, I'll throw out some football related discussion:

Norv Turner - worst personnel decision by a 14-2 football team in the history of the game? Discuss.

At least they didn't get stuck with Cam Cameron.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

omg rkmsuf at a loss for words this is new

translation: that show is REALLY bad

Bob Costas should put a bag over his head.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

translation: that show is REALLY bad

why the hell are you explaining yourself
i don't even know you anymore

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

why the hell are you explaining yourself
i don't even know you anymore

I'm bedazzled by your manhood.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I'm bedazzled by your manhood.

Hmm, so Pumpy has a prince albert eh.

[Honolulu_Blue]

If you have a chance to find some show on TV that actually shows highlights, try to catch the Jon Kitna highlight in OT.

He came back into the game in the 4th quarter after getting a mild concussion. It was 1st down and he the threw a pass that was deflected by a defensive linemen, bounced off the helmet of an offensive lineman, and then right into Kitna's arms. He caught it and ran with it. He dove into the air to try and get a first down and got his feet cut out for under him and ended up sailing into the air and falling to the turf about 1 yard shy of the first down.

Of course, Kitna started the game just like last week. He marched the Lions down the field with deadly accuracy and crazy efficient passing game until they got inside the 10 and he promptly through an interception in the endzone.

The Lions lack of a running game is going to continue to make it more difficult than it needs to be for the Lions to score in the red zone. J.T. O'Sullivan did manage to hit Calvin Johnson on a very nice fade route for one touchdown. There's no reason that play shouldn't be there at least once a game.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by molson

There's a couple of different layers to this-

1. The decision to cheat. Regardless of how much they benefited, there was a clear violation of the rules, and the punishment was deserved, and justified. Nobody disagrees with this.

2. Whether we should look at the Pats' past success differently. Whether, as one article that was posted in the other thread stated, Brady shouldn't be considered for the Hall of fame unless he leaves the Pats and wins championships with another team.

A lot of people are stating things about #2, and how silly that point is. Don't mistake that for them saying ANYTHING about #1, because they're not. When someone downplays the significance of this issue, and brings up the fact that "everyone was doing it" (at least prior to this season), they're referring to point #2, not #1.

Since it is apparently legal to steal signs, what the Patriots did can't really be described as "cheating." What they did is a technical violation of the rules, on the same level as if they had negotiated a contract with somebody they were thinking about drafting before draft day.

That's how I feel about it, and I don't think anybody can tell me otherwise. I'm actually the opposite of VFP on this one: I started out horrified, and am now convinced that this is much ado about nothing.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Ok, I'll throw out some football related discussion:

Norv Turner - worst personnel decision by a 14-2 football team in the history of the game? Discuss.

By a 14-2 team, yes. Overall, I'd say the Eagles firing Buddy Ryan after back-to-back playoff appearances (back when simply making the playoffs was considered an accomplishment) to hire Richie Kotite ranks up there, too. That move started a chain reaction that destroyed the Eagles for a good decade.

[miami_fan]

Does David Carr qualify as a bust now or did the Texans finally improve their O-line?

[Alan T]

If it would mean that Joey Harrington might actually come close to winning a game for us, I would be all for the Falcons video taping opposing defenses.

Of course right now I am beginning to wonder if the Falcons would even know what to do with the tapes once they got them after the fact.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Alan T

If it would mean that Joey Harrington might actually come close to winning a game for us, I would be all for the Falcons video taping opposing defenses.

Of course right now I am beginning to wonder if the Falcons would even know what to do with the tapes once they got them after the fact.

"Joey, they're gonna blitz next down."

"And?"

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Does David Carr qualify as a bust now or did the Texans finally improve their O-line?

It's only after two games, so let's not crown Schaub's ass yet.

I did think Carr made progress last year, so was surprised to see them let him go. It makes the decision to pass up Young even more baffling. I'm pretty sure they'd rather have him than Schaub.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

It's only after two games, so let's not crown Schaub's ass yet.

I did think Carr made progress last year, so was surprised to see them let him go. It makes the decision to pass up Young even more baffling. I'm pretty sure they'd rather have him than Schaub.

The only reason he made progress was by stifling the rest of the team, in particular Andre Johnson. They had him throw a series of five yard outs. It improved his completion percentage, but he still got sacked far to often and sucked ass.

Schaub makes quicker decisions. They can push the offense down the field and he isn't scared to throw the ball. he's clearly an improvement, even after two weeks.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Ok, I'll throw out some football related discussion:

Norv Turner - worst personnel decision by a 14-2 football team in the history of the game? Discuss.

Nothing to discuss, this is a statement of fact.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Yeah, it's a shame that many people will forget about the shootout in Cleveland, 2-0 records in Detroit, San Francisco, and Houston, and Mike Shanahan's ninja timeout. With that said, did anybody anywhere in the entire country even bother to watch the Packers-Giants game? Anybody? I guess Archie wanted to see Eli, and I guess Pam Oliver wanted to keep stalking Brett Favre, but besides them?

Anybody?

I watched a lot of it. I think the Packers are going to be better than people think this year and was interested to see how they'd do in a road test.

They passed.

[Honolulu_Blue]

If God is for us, who can be against us?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3024381


Kitna says concussion symptoms magically disappeared

---

Associated Press

ALLEN PARK, Mich. -- Detroit quarterback Jon Kitna was one of the NFL's most thankful players Monday.

Kitna was knocked out of the game against Minnesota on Sunday with a concussion, only to return and lead the Lions to an overtime win over the Vikings.

"I've never felt anything like that, and for it to clear up and go right back to as normal as I can be, is nothing short of a miracle," Kitna said Monday. "I just definitely feel the hand of God. That's all it was. You can't explain it.

"I have no headaches, no symptoms, no lingering effects. But that was the worst my head has ever felt, and the worse my memory was in the second quarter. Yet, after halftime there was nothing."

Kitna said it was the third concussion of his NFL career, and the first since 2001.

After saying he knew who he was during the game, a reporter asked Kitna if he knew where he was.

"Barely," he said.

He was knocked out of the game in the second quarter and appeared to be out for the rest of the day, standing on the sideline without a helmet. But the team cleared him to play in the third quarter and he came back in the fourth.

Kitna passed a follow-up examination Monday morning.

"He's fine," coach Rod Marinelli said. "He didn't have any symptoms, no headaches."

Kitna ran the ball twice on the final possession, leading a game-winning drive when Detroit trailed or was tied for the third straight game, including a win last season at Dallas.

"It was a courageous effort," offensive tackle George Foster said.

[cartman]

Hey, I thought Brady Quinn had the market cornered on courageous efforts!

[molson]

God is obviously a Lions fan. And he also apparently feels that QBs should play through concussions.

[Mantle2600]

Originally Posted by molson

God is obviously a Lions fan. And he also apparently feels that QBs should play through concussions.

If God is a Lions fan, then he sure does have a sick sense of humor.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Mantle2600

If God is a Lions fan, then he sure does have a sick sense of humor.

Of course He does. Just look at the platypus.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

If God is for us, who can be against us?

Kitna says concussion symptoms magically disappeared

---

Associated Press

ALLEN PARK, Mich. -- Detroit quarterback Jon Kitna was one of the NFL's most thankful players Monday.

Kitna was knocked out of the game against Minnesota on Sunday with a concussion, only to return and lead the Lions to an overtime win over the Vikings.

"I've never felt anything like that, and for it to clear up and go right back to as normal as I can be, is nothing short of a miracle," Kitna said Monday. "I just definitely feel the hand of God. That's all it was. You can't explain it.

"I have no headaches, no symptoms, no lingering effects. But that was the worst my head has ever felt, and the worse my memory was in the second quarter. Yet, after halftime there was nothing."

Reading this again made me wonder why Dutch wasn't all over this one. Kitna says it was "the hand of God" the AP reports it as "magic."

Liberal media at its worst...

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by TroyF

2) People are really focusing on the wrong thing with last nights game. Yeah, the Pats look good. Their offense looks dominant. The D has been good. But that's not the story. The story is the San Diego offense. This is a team that scored under 20 points one time last year. Once. It was in week 3 when Marty still didn't trust Rivers. They've now scored under 20 in two straight games. And they've looked horrible in doing it. They look horrible. It doesn't shock me that the Pats scored a lot against SD. I'm stunned at how inept the Chargers offense looked against a team missing their two best defensive players. If the Chargers had a brain, they'd fire Norv now (or move him to where he belongs as OC) and bring in a real head coach before their season implodes.

By my count the Pats have 6 defensive players better than Harrison - Colvin, Thomas, Wilfork, Warren, Samuel and maybe even Ellis Hobbs. Harrison adds a mentality but talent-wise is making Pro Bowls on reputation at this point. James Sanders isn't much of a drop off there.

I mean, I know it's you Troy so I assume you're going to undersell the Pats, but do you really think the Chargers are the clearly more talented team like you said earlier? Offensively, we have the edge at QB and a huge one at WR, with O-line probably us right now and RB/TE clearly SD (although our 2/3 TE's are better). I don't know whether you want to count Merriman as a rush end on the line or a LB, but either way we're equal in that category and superior in the other. Secondary I'd give to us too, particularly at the safety positions. But I'd love to have some on-field football debate here.

[MikeVic]

The Steelers are superior to both. End of discussion.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

By my count the Pats have 6 defensive players better than Harrison - Colvin, Thomas, Wilfork, Warren, Samuel and maybe even Ellis Hobbs. Harrison adds a mentality but talent-wise is making Pro Bowls on reputation at this point. James Sanders isn't much of a drop off there.

I mean, I know it's you Troy so I assume you're going to undersell the Pats, but do you really think the Chargers are the clearly more talented team like you said earlier? Offensively, we have the edge at QB and a huge one at WR, with O-line probably us right now and RB/TE clearly SD (although our 2/3 TE's are better). I don't know whether you want to count Merriman as a rush end on the line or a LB, but either way we're equal in that category and superior in the other. Secondary I'd give to us too, particularly at the safety positions. But I'd love to have some on-field football debate here.

I really love how I "undersell" the Patriots. It's so blown out of proportion it's not even a joke anymore. This all stems from me being wrong about Brady a few years ago and then having the audacity to say NE had a ton of luck in their championship years. Now everything I say about the Pats gets blown out of proportion. I made a very fair and even minded post about them in the "cheating" thread. Didn't jump on the forfeit bandwagon. Didn't jump on the suspend Belichick bandwagon. Didn't jump on the keep them out of the playoffs bandwagon. In fact, the punishment I suggested was damned near the exact one given to the Pats. But I was jumped on for irrationaly hating the team again.


All I've done thorugh this thread is talk about how good of a team the Pats are. Non stop. I haven't insulted them a bit. Yet I'm still underselling them because I haven't annoited them as living, breathing Gods who people should worship.

As for the debate:

QB - Pats, but Rivers is one hell of a QB. Or was one last year. Brady is the second best QB in the game. Rivers would easily be in the top 8 after last year. I'm not sure where the hell I'd rank him at this point.

RB - Chargers, Tomlinson is the #1 back in football. Maroney comes nowhere near his level. He isn't even a top 10 back in the league.

WR/TE - I group em together. Pats have an edge with a motivated Moss. With the normal (unmotivated) version of Moss, it's almost a dead heat.

OL - I'd have given a slight edge to the Chargers to start the year. Both are very, very good.

DL/LB - I'd have given the edge to the Chargers at the start of the year. The Patriots added Thomas, who is a hell of a player, but the Chargers have some incredible lineman. Castillo, Williams and Olshansky is about as good as it gets. Merriman is all world. Last year with Merriman in the lineup, the Chargers D was the best in football, even better than the Bears. I don't think adding Thomas and subtracting Seymour (a guy who I called one of the top ten players in football, showcasing more of my underselling of the Patriots) made the Patriots a better front 7 than the Chargers.

DB - Both have fairly average defensive backfields that get covered up by the front 7 of each team.

K/P - San Diego had by far the better special teams last year. The kicking games at both K/P were superior for SD last year.


Now, I have no idea what the hell happened to Rivers in the offseason. The guy is playing like Jake Plummer right now. The offensive line and Tomlinson are playing just as horrible. Thing is, QB is the most important position on the field. I never expected Rivers to turn into a bumbling idiot. His play is making everyone on that offense look worse than what it is. I can only attribute that to a single thing. . . and that single thing is where the Patriots are so far ahead of the Chargers it isn't even funny. . . coaching. Belichick gets the best out of all of his parts. Turner finds a way to get the worst out of his. If it weren't for a flaky Rex Grossman, SD would be 0-2 right now.

I give plenty of credit to the Pats for last nights game, but if the SD offense doesn't find itself and do it quickly, they are going to go from a Super Bowl contender to a team that struggles to make the playoffs. Two of their next three games are @Green Bay and @Denver. I think there is a good chance they could lose both of those games and be 3-3 headed into the bye week.

[st.cronin]

Harrison hasn't been one of the Pats best defensive players for at least a couple of years - last year, I might even argue that he wasn't one of the top 11. And there is no way the Chargers have as good an O-line as the Pats, that's just silly to think that. The strength of the Pats is, and has been throughout their dynasty, their O-line.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Harrison hasn't been one of the Pats best defensive players for at least a couple of years - last year, I might even argue that he wasn't one of the top 11. And there is no way the Chargers have as good an O-line as the Pats, that's just silly to think that. The strength of the Pats is, and has been throughout their dynasty, their O-line.

I can't win. When I suggested Seymour was valuable, a lot of Patriots fans jumped on me and said the loss of Harrison would be felt more. So he's more valuable than a guy I consider a top ten player in the game but not as valuable as 7 others on the team? Nonsense.

As for the lines, the Chargers had the best ranked line in football last year. They were tops in just about every category you can have for an offensive line. From sack rate, to short yardage, runs around left end and right end. (in fact the Chargers ranked #1 in runs to RE and #2 to runs around left end while the Pats finished #31 in RE and #4 in LE. The Chargers have only one weak link compared to the NE line, that's at C where Koppen beats Hardwick. Even with that, the Chargers G's were better at opening up running lanes up the middle than the Patriots.

Now you can say the Pats have Maroney while the Chargers have Tomlinson if you want, but that negates the fact that Turner also runs amazing behind that line.

Again, that was last year. At this point in the year, weather it's coaching, a slow start, over confidence or an "off" year, the Chargers line isn't playing like the unit they are. Part of that comes down to Rivers and his horrible play.

Either way, if it's silly to think the Chargers had the better offensive line, than Scouts Inc, the Footbal Outsiders, and pretty much every analyst in the league this year is silly. Because nearly all of them had the Chargers ranked as the best O Line in football. And the numbers backed them on it.

But it's irrational hate. I know.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Northwood_DK

Atlanta is 0 for 2 on FGs today. Just wait and see. Next week Morten Andersen will be back.

You win the kewpie doll

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sp...rsen_0917.html
Falcons sign veteran placekicker Andersen

By STEVE WYCHE
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 09/17/07

The Falcons have signed veteran placekicker Morten Andersen in hopes of improving their kicking woes.

This is the second straight year the Falcons have called on 47-year-old Andersen after two games into the regular season. Andersen set the NFL's all-time scoring mark last season with the Falcons.

Falcons placekicker Matt Prater missed two field goals, including a 26-yarder, in Sunday's 13-7 loss to Jacksonville.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Northwood_DK

Atlanta is 0 for 2 on FGs today. Just wait and see. Next week Morten Andersen will be back.

Good call

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3024857

The Falcons were meeting with Leftwich on Monday night to determine whether they want to sign the former Jaguars quarterback, the sources said.

The Falcons were planning to sign another quarterback this week or next, but Joey Harrington's performance in Sunday's 13-7 loss to Jacksonville may have placed more urgency on bringing in an experienced quarterback.

If Leftwich is signed, he will be the third quarterback behind Harrington and Chris Redman. Falcons coach Bobby Petrino wants to bring in a passer who can be developed in his system and ultimately compete for the job, while at the same time securing the depth behind Harrington.

Sources also confirmed that the Falcons will bring back veteran kicker Morten Andersen.

[Radii]

damn. Scooped by 1 minute!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Radii

damn. Scooped by 1 minute!

[Alan T]

Maybe it was because I was younger back then.. but I don't remember the 80s being so cruel to me as this. I mean every year I pretty much knew the 49ers would walk away with the division, and maybe the Rams would or wouldn't be dominant. I could count on the Saints as the yearly contest to see who is worse, and that was that..

Now, the Falcons play in a bad division, up for grabs, and they just self implode.. It hurts all over. I'm going to become a soccer fan.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I can't win.

I was wondering how long it was going to take you to realize that.

[jeff061]

I can't win. When I suggested Seymour was valuable, a lot of Patriots fans jumped on me and said the loss of Harrison would be felt more.

And by a lot, you mean one . It would be conveniant if you could lump all fans of certain teams together but it doesn't work that way. I think Harrison's ability to bring the secondary together is more valuable than Seymour's brute skill. Really because Wilfork and Warren are Pro Bowl level players and Jarvis Greene is easily a starter.

[Cringer]

Can the ESPN folks stop mentioning Favre and/or McNair every time they talk about Campbell and him being from Mississippi. I mean for crying out load, we get it, Favre and McNair come from the same state. It's not freakin' Syberia.

I'm a Packer/Favre fan, and even I can't stand it anymore.

Speaking of Favre, his Wrangler commercial was just on. In his later years here he sure is racking up the endorsment dollars. He must be trying to catch Peyton Manning in commercials.

[Logan]

I don't think I've ever seen a Favre commercial before in my area.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Logan

I don't think I've ever seen a Favre commercial before in my area.

I am pretty sure they are all national adds, I live in south Texas. He had that drug one, don't remember which prescription med it was. Now he has the Wrangler one. And I saw him in something else yesterday that I can't remember.

[Cringer]

So I am reading an article on packernews.com, and I come across this....

"Our coaching staff did a great job of adjusting in the second half," said John Schneider, the Packers' personnel analyst to the general manager. "Then, the players just really settled in with their confidence level and responded."

[wade moore]

Wow... nice pass by Campbell after the freakin rest of the team really tried to blow this scoring chance..

[sabotai]

Pretty insane ending to the half there.

[Cringer]

Wow, after 1st and goal from the 2nd yard line right before the half, the Redskins looked like idiots as they moved back on penalties. Can't believe they got that TD.

Am I the only one watching by the way?