The OFFICIAL 2008-09 NHL Thread

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by samifan24

I think you have to take the result of the play into consideration here. Bertuzzi is guilty of more than the other guys because of what happened to Steve Moore because of Bertuzzi's cheap shot.

Here's what I want the league to do. If you cheap shot a guy and injury him so that he has to leave the game, you are automatically suspended some number of games plus an option of being suspended indefinitely or as long as the injured player is sidelined as a result of your cheap shot. That's it. I'm not saying the NHL has to do it but I strongly believe that if they tie suspension length to injury length they would see a strong downturn in the number of cheap shots throughout the league.

Adam Graves would disagree with you.


YouTube - 1992 Patrick Division Final Game 2 Rangers VS Penguins

[Ajaxab]

And this issue comes up again in light of last night's Kotsopolous cheap shot on Van Ryn. Kostitsyn could have been in a heap of trouble for that little nudge on Schenn if Schenn had been seriously injured as well.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

And this issue comes up again in light of last night's Kotsopolous cheap shot on Van Ryn. Kostitsyn could have been in a heap of trouble for that little nudge on Schenn if Schenn had been seriously injured as well.

And that's exactly the point. The Van Ryn hit was bad and should be looked at by the league, but Kostitsyn could have broken Schenn's leg on that play. It was intentional, incredibly dirty, and didn't result in a serious injury only due to dumb luck. Plays like that are exhibit A against the whole "base the suspension on the injury" way of thinking.

[DeToxRox]

Saw this on RWCentral .. from Pierre LeBrun's blog

Latest on Zetterberg talks

Contract talks may be heating up between Henrik Zetterberg and the Red Wings. Both camps have made counteroffers and we're talking long-term deal, anywhere from seven to 10 years in length. Agent Marc Levine and GM Ken Holland met two weeks ago and then spoke again this past Wednesday. They plan to pick up the conversation again this week.

Zetterberg could easily get $9 million to $10 million a year on the open market after July 1, but he won't get that in Detroit. He's got to take less to stay in Detroit. The choice is, do you want win championships with the Wings or make lot of dough elsewhere?

I think the sweet spot is anywhere from $7 million to $8 million a season.

To be honest, I'd be surprised if Zetterberg takes much less than $8 million per year... with that said, how could Hossa possibly take less than that with the way he has been playing? I hate to say it, but there's no way Holland will be able to sign them both (i.e., Hossa's gone). It'll definitley be interesting, though, to see how this plays out...

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

And that's exactly the point. The Van Ryn hit was bad and should be looked at by the league, but Kostitsyn could have broken Schenn's leg on that play. It was intentional, incredibly dirty, and didn't result in a serious injury only due to dumb luck. Plays like that are exhibit A against the whole "base the suspension on the injury" way of thinking.

Like I said before, I'm not saying that the only thing the league should do is suspend players that injure other players. I'm saying that should think about adding that in addition to the other suspensions they place on players were the player in question is not injured.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Like I said before, I'm not saying that the only thing the league should do is suspend players that injure other players. I'm saying that should think about adding that in addition to the other suspensions they place on players were the player in question is not injured.

You know, I wouldn't be so against this line of thinking if people didn't take it too far (like you did originally) and say that the offender should be out for the same amount of time as the victim. I could definitely get behind a rule that went something like this:

suspension = (infraction factor + intent factor + severity of injury factor) x repeat offender factor

where

infraction factor is a table listing all possible infractions (obviously with some catch-alls for crazy stunts we can't imagine) and what the base fine should be.

intent factor is a table listing the assumed level of intent (obviously subjective but what can you do) and a value associated with it (so maybe accidental = 0, some intent = 3, malacious intent = 5... this would need to be thought through but you get my point).

severity of injury factor is again a table where the number of games estimated to be missed by the victim is linked to a value (so maybe 0 games = 1, 1-5 games = 2, 6-15 games = 3, 16-25 games = 5, 25-82 = 10, 83+ = 20).

repeat offender factor would just be the number of times the offender has been suspended in the past.

[Pyser]

the devils had 8 regulars out of the lineup on sunday with injuries. talk about ridiculous.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

You know, I wouldn't be so against this line of thinking if people didn't take it too far (like you did originally) and say that the offender should be out for the same amount of time as the victim.

And why do you get to decide what's "too far?" We agree that the league needs to make changes. We differ on how far the league should go in implementing those changes. It's not for you to decide what's "too far."

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by samifan24

And why do you get to decide what's "too far?" We agree that the league needs to make changes. We differ on how far the league should go in implementing those changes. It's not for you to decide what's "too far."

Really? I don't get to decide? Well fuck that, then! I quit!

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Saw this on RWCentral .. from Pierre LeBrun's blog

Latest on Zetterberg talks

Contract talks may be heating up between Henrik Zetterberg and the Red Wings. Both camps have made counteroffers and we're talking long-term deal, anywhere from seven to 10 years in length. Agent Marc Levine and GM Ken Holland met two weeks ago and then spoke again this past Wednesday. They plan to pick up the conversation again this week.

Zetterberg could easily get $9 million to $10 million a year on the open market after July 1, but he won't get that in Detroit. He's got to take less to stay in Detroit. The choice is, do you want win championships with the Wings or make lot of dough elsewhere?

I think the sweet spot is anywhere from $7 million to $8 million a season.

To be honest, I'd be surprised if Zetterberg takes much less than $8 million per year... with that said, how could Hossa possibly take less than that with the way he has been playing? I hate to say it, but there's no way Holland will be able to sign them both (i.e., Hossa's gone). It'll definitley be interesting, though, to see how this plays out...

Lidstrom's deal is up in 2010, right?

It might be REALLY tight next year, especially if the cap doesn't rise like the past few seasons. And it would absolutely mean Franzen is gone. But, did anyone expect Detroit to end up with Hossa this season? If they both agreed to take about $7.5M, could they possibly pull it off? Essentially one of these deals would replace Lidstrom's (assuming Lidstrom then retires).

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Lidstrom's deal is up in 2010, right?

It might be REALLY tight next year, especially if the cap doesn't rise like the past few seasons. And it would absolutely mean Franzen is gone. But, did anyone expect Detroit to end up with Hossa this season? If they both agreed to take about $7.5M, could they possibly pull it off? Essentially one of these deals would replace Lidstrom's (assuming Lidstrom then retires).

Yep. Truthfully I expect Franzen gone. Some team somewhere will overpay the hell out of him. I think what they could do is sign Hossa and Z to cheaper deals next season (6.5 - 7.5) and backend it (9 per) or whatever. It isn't ideal but if you keep those two, with Dats, you have a huge window still to compete at a high level.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Yep. Truthfully I expect Franzen gone. Some team somewhere will overpay the hell out of him. I think what they could do is sign Hossa and Z to cheaper deals next season (6.5 - 7.5) and backend it (9 per) or whatever. It isn't ideal but if you keep those two, with Dats, you have a huge window still to compete at a high level.

Except the cap hit is the average, so without the cap going up, they might get screwed for 09-10. But if they have enough guys who they feel are ready (Helm, Erricsson) and guys also on expiring deals (Draper, Chelios come to mind) they can probably squeeze it for one year.

I guess it would all depend on the idea that Lidstrom definitely will not return in 10-11.

Just thinking in terms of Pittsburgh, they've got 2 guys on big contracts (Sid and Geno both at $8.7M starting next year) and a handful on mid-to-high deals (Fleury at $5M, Gonch at $5M, Whitney at $4M). But after that, next year they'll need a ton of guys at or below $1M. They've got some - Kennedy, Talbot, Letang, Goligoski, Scuderi - and will need a rookie or 2 to step in. Staal is our wild card. They can afford him at $3M, but not at $5M.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Except the cap hit is the average, so without the cap going up, they might get screwed for 09-10. But if they have enough guys who they feel are ready (Helm, Erricsson) and guys also on expiring deals (Draper, Chelios come to mind) they can probably squeeze it for one year.

I guess it would all depend on the idea that Lidstrom definitely will not return in 10-11.

Just thinking in terms of Pittsburgh, they've got 2 guys on big contracts (Sid and Geno both at $8.7M starting next year) and a handful on mid-to-high deals (Fleury at $5M, Gonch at $5M, Whitney at $4M). But after that, next year they'll need a ton of guys at or below $1M. They've got some - Kennedy, Talbot, Letang, Goligoski, Scuderi - and will need a rookie or 2 to step in. Staal is our wild card. They can afford him at $3M, but not at $5M.

Even if Lidstrom does retire after the 09-10 season, the Wings will still be in a jam next season.

According the NHLnumbers.com, for 09-10 the Wings already have 14 players under contract and are at $41.2 million. Even if you get Hossa and Zetterberg to take a "home town discont" and sign at $7.5 million per season each, that brings the Wings to $56 million with only 16 players under contract. Even in the unlikely even the cap goes up by $5 million next year, I can't see how the Wings keep Franzen. Even keeping two of the three could make things tight.

There aren't too many places where the Wings can save money. They could try to move Lilja ($1.2M) and replace him with someone who makes a little less. They could do the same with Draper ($1.5M). Other than that you have Maltby making $800K and then younger guys making less than that. The only other options would be moving Cleary ($2.8M) or Fillpula ($3M), but I don't see that happening.

If Lidstrom retires, which I think he will, the Wings will need to look for another defensemen to do their best to take over for him. Those are incredibly big skates to fill. We had a glimpse of the Lidstromless Wings last year when he was out with the knee injury for a few weeks. It wasn't pretty. At all. The Wings looked completely out of sync and were a mess in their own end. I fear the post-Lidstrom era.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Even if Lidstrom does retire after the 09-10 season, the Wings will still be in a jam next season.

According the NHLnumbers.com, for 09-10 the Wings already have 14 players under contract and are at $41.2 million. Even if you get Hossa and Zetterberg to take a "home town discont" and sign at $7.5 million per season each, that brings the Wings to $56 million with only 16 players under contract. Even in the unlikely even the cap goes up by $5 million next year, I can't see how the Wings keep Franzen. Even keeping two of the three could make things tight.

There aren't too many places where the Wings can save money. They could try to move Lilja ($1.2M) and replace him with someone who makes a little less. They could do the same with Draper ($1.5M). Other than that you have Maltby making $800K and then younger guys making less than that. The only other options would be moving Cleary ($2.8M) or Fillpula ($3M), but I don't see that happening.

If Lidstrom retires, which I think he will, the Wings will need to look for another defensemen to do their best to take over for him. Those are incredibly big skates to fill. We had a glimpse of the Lidstromless Wings last year when he was out with the knee injury for a few weeks. It wasn't pretty. At all. The Wings looked completely out of sync and were a mess in their own end. I fear the post-Lidstrom era.

Not knowing who is a FA in 2010, I don't think they are getting anyone to replace Lidstrom. He's irreplaceable. The best they can hope for is Rafalski, Kronwall and Stuart all step up, as well as one ofMeech and Erricsson being able to fill a 2nd pairing role.

I didn't realize Draper was making that little (comparatively to other players), but I guess he's also been taking a discount to stick around. Other 3rd line centers, the Matt Cullens of the world, are getting $3M.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Not knowing who is a FA in 2010, I don't think they are getting anyone to replace Lidstrom. He's irreplaceable. The best they can hope for is Rafalski, Kronwall and Stuart all step up, as well as one ofMeech and Erricsson being able to fill a 2nd pairing role.

I didn't realize Draper was making that little (comparatively to other players), but I guess he's also been taking a discount to stick around. Other 3rd line centers, the Matt Cullens of the world, are getting $3M.

Yeah, there is no replacing Lidstrom. It's not going to happen. I have no idea what potential "big name" defensemen will be FAs either.

It will be interesting to see what they do with that money. They may need to finally invest in some goaltending. They really have been doing this on the cheap ever since the cap was put in place. Right now, they are spending only $2.1M on Osgood/Conklin. So, maybe the split it between defense and goaltending or divy it up among all positions. It will be interesting.

The Wings' mid-ranged guys are Cleary, Filpulla, and Holmstrom, who is quite the bargain at $2.5M.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Yeah, there is no replacing Lidstrom. It's not going to happen. I have no idea what potential "big name" defensemen will be FAs either.

It will be interesting to see what they do with that money. They may need to finally invest in some goaltending. They really have been doing this on the cheap ever since the cap was put in place. Right now, they are spending only $2.1M on Osgood/Conklin. So, maybe the split it between defense and goaltending or divy it up among all positions. It will be interesting.

The Wings' mid-ranged guys are Cleary, Filpulla, and Holmstrom, who is quite the bargain at $2.5M.

Actually thinking it through, Gonchar's deal expires the same year. And he'll only be like 36...he'd be good for another 4 years in Detroit! Plus it will give Chelios someone to hit the early bird dinners with.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by samifan24

And why do you get to decide what's "too far?" We agree that the league needs to make changes. We differ on how far the league should go in implementing those changes. It's not for you to decide what's "too far."

It should be the players union deciding this crap...afterall, they are the ones involved here.

It comes down to how much players value their health and ultimately, their potential earning power. So, if players feel that their potential earning power is severely at risk by "cheap shots" then they should play accordingly. Until players take responsibility for their own actions nothing the league can do will really have an effect nor will there be any buy-in from the players.

Seriously, you would think some of the crap happening on the ice would taken care of in their own dressing rooms. I know I used to be really pissed off a guys on my team for doing stupid shit that resulted in me having to watch my back...but, I guess those were different times.

[Dr. Sak]

Let's Go WINGS!!!

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Let's Go WINGS!!!

Welcome back, Dr. Sak.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Let's Go WINGS!!!

Damn you!

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Welcome back, Dr. Sak.

I expect a return Cheer on Thursday...

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I expect a return Cheer on Thursday...

You got it.

[Dr. Sak]

This is a fun game to watch

[Dr. Sak]

WOW! Let this one play out...no shootout please!

[DeToxRox]

This has been the best regular season game I've seen in a long, long time.

[Dr. Sak]

What a game.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Wow. I sure am glad Jordan Staal decided he didn't want to show up during the playoffs. He can be scary good when he's on his game.

[Suburban Rhythm]

If I have one bad thing to say about this game...

My two goalies in my fantasy league...yeah, Fleury and Osgood. I'll punt on the goalie categories this week!

[Hurst2112]

Burke out as Ducks GM? That should make for a couple more pages of good posts.

[Dr. Sak]

Next stop Toronto?

[Hurst2112]

Under league rules, Burke cannot take a job with another club while still under contract, even if he resigns. That can happen only with the team's blessing, something the Ducks have been reluctant to do. Burke has not been allowed to discuss the Leafs' opening with Toronto officials.

We'll see if the Ducks are generous with their 'blessing'.

[Hurst2112]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Saw this on RWCentral .. from Pierre LeBrun's blog

Latest on Zetterberg talks

Contract talks may be heating up between Henrik Zetterberg and the Red Wings. Both camps have made counteroffers and we're talking long-term deal, anywhere from seven to 10 years in length. Agent Marc Levine and GM Ken Holland met two weeks ago and then spoke again this past Wednesday. They plan to pick up the conversation again this week.

Zetterberg could easily get $9 million to $10 million a year on the open market after July 1, but he won't get that in Detroit. He's got to take less to stay in Detroit. The choice is, do you want win championships with the Wings or make lot of dough elsewhere?

I think the sweet spot is anywhere from $7 million to $8 million a season.

To be honest, I'd be surprised if Zetterberg takes much less than $8 million per year... with that said, how could Hossa possibly take less than that with the way he has been playing? I hate to say it, but there's no way Holland will be able to sign them both (i.e., Hossa's gone). It'll definitley be interesting, though, to see how this plays out...

I can almost guarantee that Gaborik and his crazy agent are sweating this out.

Not taking their delusions of how much Gabby is worth; they may have to go into free agency next year with several teams telling them 'well, Zetterberg signed an extension with the Wings for X amount p/y. You are asking for X+3mil p/y. What has your client brought to the Wild since he was drafted? What can your client give us in terms of leadership and overall talent.

I think Marion missed his boat last year and this off season. His trade value is slowly going down (has only played 2 games this year). His attitude shows that he isn't a leader. Yeah, Jaque's style might not fit his talents but Gabby isn't doing a whole lot to defend his request of a boatload of cash next year. He can go up to western Canada and play with his boyfriend. They can wallow in mediocrity, again, together.

[johnnyshaka]

I'll be amazed when the day comes that a "high profile" free agent doesn't get crazy money...worth it or not.

Bottom line is that there is always somebody willing to pay the price for guys like Gabby and Hossa so I doubt those two have anything to worry about with regards to what Z signs for.

[Hurst2112]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

I'll be amazed when the day comes that a "high profile" free agent doesn't get crazy money...worth it or not.

Bottom line is that there is always somebody willing to pay the price for guys like Gabby and Hossa so I doubt those two have anything to worry about with regards to what Z signs for.

true, there are always idiots. But show me a team that has made a move like that and made it work.

can anybody justify 9-10 million per year for Gabby when somebody like zetterberg may sign for 7-9?

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

true, there are always idiots. But show me a team that has made a move like that and made it work.

can anybody justify 9-10 million per year for Gabby when somebody like zetterberg may sign for 7-9?

I'm not saying it ever works...but that doesn't stop teams from doing it.

Why does it have to be justified?? Teams overpay for players all the time...that will never stop. If they want somebody bad enough, they'll overpay. And vice versa, if they aren't willing to overpay for players, then you'll be stuck with what's left after everybody's emptied their wallet.

[Hurst2112]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

I'm not saying it ever works...but that doesn't stop teams from doing it.

Why does it have to be justified?? Teams overpay for players all the time...that will never stop. If they want somebody bad enough, they'll overpay. And vice versa, if they aren't willing to overpay for players, then you'll be stuck with what's left after everybody's emptied their wallet.

your disdain for contract sizes is waaaaaaaay more passionate than my discussing if Gabby will get his asking price. who burnt your toast?

we are discussing player's contracts which are all over-inflated. doesn't mean we can't look past that and have a debate on whether or not Hank's re-signing will change what Gabby will ask for or be offered.

[Maple Leafs]

I for one welcome our new fat Irish overlord.

(No, seriously I do. I think Burke will be a good fit in Toronto.)

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

your disdain for contract sizes is waaaaaaaay more passionate than my discussing if Gabby will get his asking price. who burnt your toast?

we are discussing player's contracts which are all over-inflated. doesn't mean we can't look past that and have a debate on whether or not Hank's re-signing will change what Gabby will ask for or be offered.

Oh, I have no problem with overpaying players...honestly, I'd rather have an owner pay too much and sign "better" players than have one who is unwilling to open the wallet and end up with the scraps.

My beef is when they, the owners, themselves complain about escalating salaries when they, themselves, are the ones at the root of the problem.

As for Z's potential "home town" discount affecting Gabby's earning potential...like I said before, it won't matter one bit because there will be more than one owner willing to pay whatever Gabby wants...that's just the way it is. The day that doesn't happen is the day I commend owners for being responsible...but I'm not sure that day will ever come...even in a salary cap world.

[Pyser]

it only took 16 games for the lightning to realize what everyone else knew: hiring melrose was an awful idea.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Pyser

it only took 16 games for the lightning to realize what everyone else knew: hiring melrose was an awful idea.

Yeah. His firing is pretty much the Least. Surprising. News. Ever.

Those guys really have no clue how to build a hockey team. They've just made horrible decision after horrible decision. It's too bad to see a great player like LeCavalier wasting away down there.

[Suburban Rhythm]

I am still standing by my pick of Melrose in the FOFC Historical NHL Draft.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

I am still standing by my pick of Melrose in the FOFC Historical NHL Draft.

[TazFTW]

Yay, now ESPN can bring back Melrose and get rid of Barnaby.

[Wolfpack]

Now let's see...where is that thing...ah, here it is!

*whacks Panic Button*

(What else can be done at this point as Carolina has dropped four of five including getting swept by the Thrashers in a home-and-home set surrounding getting pasted by the Caps--again. If this keeps up, Melrose may not be the only coach on the unemployment line given the somewhat touchy offseason between Rutherford and Laviolette.)

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Yeah. His firing is pretty much the Least. Surprising. News. Ever.

Those guys really have no clue how to build a hockey team. They've just made horrible decision after horrible decision. It's too bad to see a great player like LeCavalier wasting away down there.

Why was Melrose fired? I don't follow the Lightning but it sounds like there's more to the story. He had Tocchet run practice earlier this week after he (Melrose) held a team meeting. It sounds like a lot of people are saying Tampa made bad signings in the off-season. If so, how is that Melrose's fault? I'm not saying he shouldn't have been fired but I don't understand why he was fired if some people are saying it was the team's fault for signing a lot of bad players in the name of "building a hockey team."

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Why was Melrose fired? I don't follow the Lightning but it sounds like there's more to the story.

I haven't read anything about it yet, but the guys in the locker room at hockey tonight were saying a part of it was because he wasn't playing Lecavalier or Stamkos enough.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Why was Melrose fired? I don't follow the Lightning but it sounds like there's more to the story. He had Tocchet run practice earlier this week after he (Melrose) held a team meeting. It sounds like a lot of people are saying Tampa made bad signings in the off-season. If so, how is that Melrose's fault? I'm not saying he shouldn't have been fired but I don't understand why he was fired if some people are saying it was the team's fault for signing a lot of bad players in the name of "building a hockey team."

I can't say why Melrose was fired. Given it happened so quickly it had to be some philosophical differences between Melrose and the ownership. While I don't know too much about the owners' philosophy on how to build/coach a team (given what they did during the off-season, it seems to be a pretty bad one), it's not surprising that Melrose would clash with anyone.

He seemed an odd fit from the start and hasn't been coaching in the league for 13 years. It seemed doomed to fail.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Why was Melrose fired? I don't follow the Lightning but it sounds like there's more to the story. He had Tocchet run practice earlier this week after he (Melrose) held a team meeting. It sounds like a lot of people are saying Tampa made bad signings in the off-season. If so, how is that Melrose's fault? I'm not saying he shouldn't have been fired but I don't understand why he was fired if some people are saying it was the team's fault for signing a lot of bad players in the name of "building a hockey team."

Because they can't fire the 12 new players they signed. Well, they can, they won't. So someone needed to go.

I wonder how far this set the team back. I know not all the deals were long term-- Roberts, Recchi, Kolzig etc only getting 1 year. But Vrbata got 3, and Malone got 7 years. Adam Hall got 3 years (though low price).

And they still have no D.

[Hurst2112]

Barry's last coaching game was a loss to the Wings. That's funny.

Now, he'll hate them even more if he goes back to ESPN! hah

[Suburban Rhythm]

Really odd trade that went down early this morning.

Pens get Phillipe Boucher
Stars get Darryl Sydor

On the surface, Pittsburgh gets an older D whose best years happened years ago in Dallas and LA for...an older D whose best years happened years ago in Dallas and LA

Both are in the last year of their deals. Both making $2.5M.

Sydor had actually played decently the past few games he dressed. But he had also expressed that he wanted traded. He was #7 on the depth chart now, and that's before Whitney (December) and Gonchar (March) return.

Boucher is a RH shot, which the Pens only have one (Letang).

But the deal still makes NO sense.