The Official MLB 2007 Thread

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Logan

Roughly twice what they will pay Clemens this year.

beat ya to it. But DAMM that's amusing

edit: as someone said over on SoSH:

To rip off Winston Churchill, "This is the first time I've heard of a rat swimming towards a sinking ship."

Seriously, I am very happy about this. Clemens is injury-prone, dangerously old, and a prima donna. This will not end well for him or the Yankees.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I read that he had "very slight discomfort" in a recent bullpen session so they pushed his start back and will see how he does in a simulated start before activating him.

Unless they're again reporting this, the slight elbow discomfort was reported about a week ago and was the reason that Felix didn't pitch this weekend in New York.

[Logan]

$28 million for Clemens, pro-rated to roughly $4.5 million per month.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Fuck Roger Clemens. Money-grubbing SOB. I can't wait till the Yankees fail to win the WS this year and he has to go out without another ring. I'm glad the fucker didn't break Cy's record...he doesn't deserve it.

Agreed. At least he's shown his true colours here. I can't say I'm completely surprised that this steroid enhanced monster decided to go for the biggest payday, rather than the good story/better team in Boston.

I hope he gets hit by a comebacker in his first minor league start.

I know, it's not nice. But ever since Gord Ash dealt him for a box of chocolate chip cookie and a Wal-Mart Gift Card a few years ago, I've had very little use for him.

[Buccaneer]

I'm very pleased to see Peavy pitching the way he has and not pitching through an injury as he was last season.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I'm very pleased to see Peavy pitching the way he has and not pitching through an injury as he was last season.

hey - unless your Clemens bashing, save it for another day.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I'm very pleased to see Peavy pitching the way he has and not pitching through an injury as he was last season.

Agreed and I'm taking it all the way to the fantasy bank

SI

[sterlingice]

...




























*** WARNING: RANT OF A QUASI-POLITICAL NATURE ***


Sorry, guys, the baseball train may fall of the tracks for the next few posts. But I'm getting sick and tired of being lectured by Joe Morgan and the ESPN universe about how we are all racists here while I'm trying to watch a game between two pitchers who have the potential to be superstars. Yes, I know, consider the source. But, still- it was ESPN's top news story for the day until Clemens blew up the news wire.

For those of you who were mercifully spared this news byte, apparently, we, baseball fans, are a bunch of racists who hate Barry Bonds because he's black. No, not because of the cloud of the steroid controversy or because he's an asshat in a majority (not all) of his public settings. No, it's because he's black.

I just don't know where to start. Maybe first with it being that he's breaking the record of a black man. Right? Even tho it was before I was born, I didn't imagine all the stories about Hank Aaron getting death threats because he was black and breaking the hallowed record held by Babe Ruth, right? Mark McGwire didn't magically break his record and I was just asleep at the wheel and missed that the record is now be back in the hands of whitey so I should cheer against Bonds?

Speaking of which, how is Mark McGwire doing these days? I heard he had a bit of a rough go of it this past season, trying to get into the Hall of Fame, despite some great career numbers. Rafael Palmeiro? How about Sammy Sosa? None of them were black last I checked and all have horrible public images now due to the steroid controversy.

And, unfortunately, this is where the rant will probably go awry but I think it needs to be said. It's amazing that an almost identical 68 vs 67% of blacks and whites agree that either steroids or race are the reason why he's "being treated unfairly" but the split is 1-66 with whites but 27-41 with blacks (tho one could argue if he is actually being treated unfairly). Shame on the 27% of blacks who think Barry Bonds is "being treated unfairly because of race". You're all idiots and racists. All of you.

And shame on Jayson Stark for this paragraph: "We're not so sure they're right in attributing the alleged mistreatment of this particular historical figure to racially charged motives. But for nearly all white fans who think Bonds has been treated unfairly to say race has nothing to do with it is stunning. We say to those fans: You're kidding yourselves if that's what you truly think."

Racism will keep lessening it's grasp on people as two things happen: 1) the old and idiotic who can't get past skin color as a determining factor for anything die out and 2) those who continue to keep pushing it and seeing it when it's not in play just stop doing it. Then we'll all be in a better world.

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

ya know SI...i'm going to give you props for coming out and saying something that I have always wanted to say, but that is a very unpopular opinion to voice. You need backing up with it. And I absolutely agree with you, in this case and in a lot of other cases.

i'm not saying there aren't legitimate instances out there where race and racism is a factor, but I think that all too often it's a knee-jerk reaction and a knee-jerk blame simply because it generates controversy and headlines.

Like if joe morgan was saying it was because of steroids, there wouldn't be anything for him to go on a rant about. making it about race gives him a pulpit to stand on so he can hear himself talk.

I still havn't figured out why other members of the community buy into something like that...maybe someone on the board can help me with that. In something like this where it's clear it's not about race, why are 27% of black people answering the survey blaming it on race? What's their motive? Or are they just ignorant?

[sterlingice]

I think I did have one are where what I wrote wasn't clear.

First, here's the link to the survey, so we're all playing with the same data: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2861930

Second, it's 27% of blacks who thought he was being treated unfairly (subgroup A) thought it was because of race (subgroup B). The net answer can be seen in the last blank. That said, a full 46% of blacks think he has been treated unfairly and 27% of those think it's because of race for 12% total of blacks surveyed claim he has been treated unfairly and it is because of race. It's not the 1 in 4 of 27% but it's basically 1 in 8 who took the survey think everyone is a racist who hates Bonds primarily for that reason and that's just a load of crap.

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

yep. Even with your newly revised data, I agree. That's fucked up.

[Buccaneer]

We're racists but Barry Bonds is not?

[Logan]

All well said SI.

[stevew]

I didn't realize anyone disliked Bonds for merely "being black." There are a laundry list of other reasons for doing so, some of which are as simple as the fact that he is a very good hitter on an opposing team.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by stevew

I didn't realize anyone disliked Bonds for merely "being black." There are a laundry list of other reasons for doing so, some of which are as simple as the fact that he is a very good hitter on an opposing team.

No. It's cause he's black.

[Terps]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Speaking of which, how is Mark McGwire doing these days? I heard he had a bit of a rough go of it this past season, trying to get into the Hall of Fame, despite some great career numbers. Rafael Palmeiro? How about Sammy Sosa? None of them were black last I checked and all have horrible public images now due to the steroid controversy.

Sammy Sosa isn't black?

[MrBug708]

Yup. Sosa is a good African name

He's Latino

[lighthousekeeper]

Ever since Oct 3 1995, poll results like this don't surprise me.

[Ksyrup]

I think it's fairly obvious that people are interpreting the numbers incorrectly. This is not a story because of the "negative" numbers attributted to white votes; it's the "positive" numbers attributed to black votes. It seems clear to me that the difference in the numbers is due to blacks looking past his issues because of his race, not whites holding the color of his skin against him. It's the OJ Simpson Effect, plain and simple. There were a significant number of blacks who probably thought OJ was guilty, but they were happy he got off because he was black. Same principle here.

Although I guess I'm lying to myself, I can honestly say race has never figured into the equation when I've thought of Barry Bonds. I'm probably not as deadset against the thought of him breaking the record than most, either.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

Ever since Oct 3 1995, poll results like this don't surprise me.

Exactly.

[miked]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Agreed. At least he's shown his true colours here. I can't say I'm completely surprised that this steroid enhanced monster decided to go for the biggest payday, rather than the good story/better team in Boston.

I hope he gets hit by a comebacker in his first minor league start.

I know, it's not nice. But ever since Gord Ash dealt him for a box of chocolate chip cookie and a Wal-Mart Gift Card a few years ago, I've had very little use for him.

Hmmm...why would he go to Boston? They supposedly didn't want him until after the break, and after the way he was run out of town (because he was "done") I don't blame him. I would love to watch him throw at Manny (the true prima donna) for another season. When you've won 350 games and completely dominated like no pitcher in the last 40 years, I think you've earned the right to play on your terms. And he never tested positive or was asked to testify.

[oykib]

You're kidding yourselves if you think Bonds hate has nothing to do with race.

Everyone had suspected that McGwire was a user from back in the bash bros. days. But the Justice Dept. specifically targeted BALCO because Bonds was breaking home run records.

Don't tell me that it's becuase Bonds was a jackass. Look back at Big Mac's comments. He was a huge sourpuss during the record chase. But the media latched on to anything positive they possibly could to paint him as a good guy.

Bonds may be an asshole. He is almost certainly a PED cheater. But he's not the only one in either regard. It's not all about race. It's not even mostly about race. But it has something to do with race.

There sre plenty of other steroid jerks out there. But we don't tear after all of them.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I think it's fairly obvious that people are interpreting the numbers incorrectly. This is not a story because of the "negative" numbers attributted to white votes; it's the "positive" numbers attributed to black votes. It seems clear to me that the difference in the numbers is due to blacks looking past his issues because of his race, not whites holding the color of his skin against him. It's the OJ Simpson Effect, plain and simple. There were a significant number of blacks who probably thought OJ was guilty, but they were happy he got off because he was black. Same principle here.

Although I guess I'm lying to myself, I can honestly say race has never figured into the equation when I've thought of Barry Bonds. I'm probably not as deadset against the thought of him breaking the record than most, either.

But I think the poll is partly to blame. It's asking poll respondants to simplify things down to a simple yes/no (or more appropriately: black/white). When people are asked to provide responses to these simplified questions, it sets them up to answer what they're not truly feeling.

I think he is *somewhat* being treated unfairly, since out of all the suspected-but-not-yet-found-guilty steroid users, he certainly gets most of the heat. But I think the reality is that there are many factors why he is getting the most heat, race being a small contributing factor; his success being the primary contributing factor.



That said, I was also watching the game last night and agreed that Joe Morgan just needed to stfu. I felt bad for his broadcast partner, who was having a tough time dancing around the topic.

[Ksyrup]

There's a huge difference between McGwire and Bonds. Bonds has been a surly jackass for longer than he's been considered a prolific HR hitter. Back when he was a young All-Star, he was known as an asshole. That reputation was cemented long before he started hitting HRs at the rate he hits them now, and then admitted to taking steroids. McGwire's connection was to a substance that was legal at the time, and nobody really cared about until that Orioles pitcher died during Spring Training. He was never considered anything but a private person, and he actually became something of a good guy when he came to STL (from my impression, with the charity stuff and all). And lucky for him, he was long gone from the game when his name was linked to something more than Andro. And I don't think he's been treated well at all since his testimony on the Hill, so much so that a sure-fire HoF career may not make it to Cooperstown.

You can take Bonds out of context and say that he's representative of how we treat black players, but it's just not true. Look at other black players, like Ken Griffey, Jr., - he's never been an outgoing, nice guy, in my eyes. In fact, I still remember seeing him give an interview after the HR hitting contest in Atlanta, I think it was, where he was saying the right things but looked and sounded like he'd rather be anywhere else in the world, and no one gave him crap for it. Between his so-so personality and his injuries, you'd think we'd be all over him because he's black. Hasn't happened.

No, Barry Bonds is a unique player who is getting a ton of shit for 3 things - he's an asshole to everyone he meets, he's a great player who is closing in on one of the greatest records ever, and he'e been all but proven (by his own admissions, leaked or not) to have taken substances that people believe have aided his performance. Sure, there are people out there who will add on top of that their hate for blacks, just like there will be people who would probably would never vote for someone like Obama simply because he is black, but that doesn't change the underlying facts.

[Ksyrup]

"[Freddie] Garcia bruised and scraped his left shin in the collision, raising question as to whether he will be able to make his scheduled start Monday night in the opener of a three-game series at Arizona. Garcia, who was running to try to catch a fly ball in center field, toppled onto the cart used by the grounds crew and was clearly in pain. He was quickly carted off the field on the vehicle."

If you're going to injure yourself, I guess the best way is to fall onto a cart that can take you off the field.

[Logan]

By the way, that Clemens announcement drew comparisons to Steve Nebraska's debut at Yankee Stadium.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Terps

Sammy Sosa isn't black?

Of course he is. But not "African-American."

Gotta love stupid categories.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

"[Freddie] Garcia bruised and scraped his left shin in the collision, raising question as to whether he will be able to make his scheduled start Monday night in the opener of a three-game series at Arizona. Garcia, who was running to try to catch a fly ball in center field, toppled onto the cart used by the grounds crew and was clearly in pain. He was quickly carted off the field on the vehicle."

If you're going to injure yourself, I guess the best way is to fall onto a cart that can take you off the field.

God obviously hates the Phillies. sigh.

[Ksyrup]

Joel Zumaya looks like he's going to be out for awhile. He heard a loud "pop" in his middle finger and had "shocking pain." I'm assuming that's not a good sign...

[Ksyrup]

Thursday night...Jeff Weaver pitching in Detroit. Last game he won was against the Tigers in the World Series. I hope they help his ERA stay "aloft."

[Arles]

Diamondbacks finally beat the Mets in "Shea West".

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

You can take Bonds out of context and say that he's representative of how we treat black players, but it's just not true. Look at other black players, like Ken Griffey, Jr., - he's never been an outgoing, nice guy, in my eyes. In fact, I still remember seeing him give an interview after the HR hitting contest in Atlanta, I think it was, where he was saying the right things but looked and sounded like he'd rather be anywhere else in the world, and no one gave him crap for it. Between his so-so personality and his injuries, you'd think we'd be all over him because he's black. Hasn't happened.

Both of these guys are the sons of major leaguers. Spoiled brat rich kids are pretty much similar no matter what their skin colour is. I don't think exposes much. The record shouldn't change people's indignation at the unsubstantiated perception that Barry has cheated.

I think that's the point.

If you want to be disgusted. Be disgusted at ALL of the high-tech cheating that went on in baseball, that still goes on, that goes on en masse in other sports that no one seems to expose. Be annoyed, frustrated and aghast at the fact that owners, GMs and everyone else turned a blind eye to what was happening because it was part of the status quo in the sport and now has gone underground.

All I know is, if Barry has managed to get to where he has, by cheating..in some small or large measure, that whatever stuff he took should be sold for a lot of money and be investigated to see if it can't solve some rare diseases that scientists are confounded by.

All of the conjecture about what he's perceived to have done versus what he really did is not known. And that's what all of this is about. People just guessing, taking small shreds of 'evidence' to create their own story about the 'asshole' who didn't kiss their societal butts because they feel like athletes should pray at the altar of "fans first."

The legacy of a game that was tainted by its very inception has very weak legs to stand on when you start to get into debates about "purity v. taint" of its records.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Joel Zumaya looks like he's going to be out for awhile. He heard a loud "pop" in his middle finger and had "shocking pain." I'm assuming that's not a good sign...

Second player in a row that I've dropped from my fantasy team just before he hits the DL.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Both of these guys are the sons of major leaguers. Spoiled brat rich kids are pretty much similar no matter what their skin colour is. I don't think exposes much. The record shouldn't change people's indignation at the unsubstantiated perception that Barry has cheated.

I think that's the point.

If you want to be disgusted. Be disgusted at ALL of the high-tech cheating that went on in baseball, that still goes on, that goes on en masse in other sports that no one seems to expose. Be annoyed, frustrated and aghast at the fact that owners, GMs and everyone else turned a blind eye to what was happening because it was part of the status quo in the sport and now has gone underground.

All I know is, if Barry has managed to get to where he has, by cheating..in some small or large measure, that whatever stuff he took should be sold for a lot of money and be investigated to see if it can't solve some rare diseases that scientists are confounded by.

All of the conjecture about what he's perceived to have done versus what he really did is not known. And that's what all of this is about. People just guessing, taking small shreds of 'evidence' to create their own story about the 'asshole' who didn't kiss their societal butts because they feel like athletes should pray at the altar of "fans first."

The legacy of a game that was tainted by its very inception has very weak legs to stand on when you start to get into debates about "purity v. taint" of its records.

But the point is, none of this has to do with race. I think the "evidence" of what Bonds says he did is pretty black and white. Even if you want to take his word for it that it was unknowing, that doesn't change the fact that he took an illegal substance. I'm not referring to his head size, etc., but just the black and white of his leaked testimony.

Everything you're railing against cuts across race. There's no racial element to any of it. Yes, a bunch of players cheat, and have cheated, for decades. At this point, only one of them is about to break a huge record. So of course he's going to become the focal point of the rage/indignation of the many who see that as an affront to the sport. No one cares if Alex Sanchez used, because he's insignificant. Even Giambi and Sheffield can skirt by (I don't see anyone treating Sheffield differently because of his race) because, in the long run, they're just a couple of the thousands of really good baseball players in history. They aren't about to alter history in a tangible way. If we had some sort of proof similar to Bonds that Clemens used, he'd be similarlly villified (even moreso than going back to the Yankees!). I can guarantee his possible push to break Warren Spahn's post-1930 record for wins would be largely - hugely - discounted. This is simply not a racial issue, except to those for whom any issue is racial. And those people really don't, or shouldn't, count as legitimate voices in our society.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

There's a huge difference between McGwire and Bonds. Bonds has been a surly jackass for longer than he's been considered a prolific HR hitter. Back when he was a young All-Star, he was known as an asshole. That reputation was cemented long before he started hitting HRs at the rate he hits them now, and then admitted to taking steroids. McGwire's connection was to a substance that was legal at the time, and nobody really cared about until that Orioles pitcher died during Spring Training. He was never considered anything but a private person, and he actually became something of a good guy when he came to STL (from my impression, with the charity stuff and all). And lucky for him, he was long gone from the game when his name was linked to something more than Andro. And I don't think he's been treated well at all since his testimony on the Hill, so much so that a sure-fire HoF career may not make it to Cooperstown.

You can take Bonds out of context and say that he's representative of how we treat black players, but it's just not true. Look at other black players, like Ken Griffey, Jr., - he's never been an outgoing, nice guy, in my eyes. In fact, I still remember seeing him give an interview after the HR hitting contest in Atlanta, I think it was, where he was saying the right things but looked and sounded like he'd rather be anywhere else in the world, and no one gave him crap for it. Between his so-so personality and his injuries, you'd think we'd be all over him because he's black. Hasn't happened.

No, Barry Bonds is a unique player who is getting a ton of shit for 3 things - he's an asshole to everyone he meets, he's a great player who is closing in on one of the greatest records ever, and he'e been all but proven (by his own admissions, leaked or not) to have taken substances that people believe have aided his performance. Sure, there are people out there who will add on top of that their hate for blacks, just like there will be people who would probably would never vote for someone like Obama simply because he is black, but that doesn't change the underlying facts.

I hear ya, but there's something illogical or incomplete about this kind of argument. Pointing out that a hated black guy is also a jerk, and then pointing out that there are nice black guys who aren't hated doesn't really prove anything. It's kind of like the whole, "Sure X player used steroids, but he still had to work out a ton and you still need good hand-eye cordination to hit all those home runs" line of thinking. (Just because there's other, more easily understood reasons for a phenomenon, that doesn't necessarily elimiate ALL possible intangible contributing causes)

Of course, there's no way to prove one way or another that Bonds' perception is worse because he was black. Saying he's "bad anyway" certainly isn't proof of anything. It's just opinion, but the viciousness that's directed to Bonds for being surly to the media and using the same performance enhancing drugs that almost everyone else does always seemed a little over the top to me.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Joel Zumaya looks like he's going to be out for awhile. He heard a loud "pop" in his middle finger and had "shocking pain." I'm assuming that's not a good sign...

2-3 months out for Zumaya if it's anything at all like the injury described in the link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2063980

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by molson

Of course, there's no way to prove one way or another that Bonds' perception is worse because he was black. Saying he's "bad anyway" certainly isn't proof of anything. It's just opinion, but the viciousness that's directed to Bonds for being surly to the media and using the same performance enhancing drugs that almost everyone else does always seemed a little over the top to me.

Coupled with what he's achieved already and what he's about to do? I don't think it's over the top at all. Heck, this country couldn't care less about cycling, and once the dude who won last year came up as testing positive, the country turned on him in a big way (well, as much as we cared). Didn't matter if he was white or black. The dude was considered a fraud. I don't think there's much difference, regardless of whether Bonds has tested positive or not.

You're right it's impossible to prove one way or the other. But if race was as big an issue as some say, then it should be affecting other guys, in some manner. There are always going to be the people out there who have racial motivations for attacking a minority. But by and large, I refuse to accept that your average white sports fan is of the mindset that, "It sucks that an asshole steroid user is about to break the HR record, but it sucks even more that he's black." Which is, in a nutshell, the gist of how the poll results are being spun.

[ThunderingHERD]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I think I did have one are where what I wrote wasn't clear.

First, here's the link to the survey, so we're all playing with the same data: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2861930

Second, it's 27% of blacks who thought he was being treated unfairly (subgroup A) thought it was because of race (subgroup B). The net answer can be seen in the last blank. That said, a full 46% of blacks think he has been treated unfairly and 27% of those think it's because of race for 12% total of blacks surveyed claim he has been treated unfairly and it is because of race. It's not the 1 in 4 of 27% but it's basically 1 in 8 who took the survey think everyone is a racist who hates Bonds primarily for that reason and that's just a load of crap.

SI

In other news, Major League Baseball has flatly denied the validity of this survey. They've conducted 3 independent surveys using data they won't give out that all find that there is absolutely no difference between white fans and black fans.

[lighthousekeeper]

They didn't mention that the only people polled were NBA refs.

[pennywisesb]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

They didn't mention that the only people polled were NBA refs.

Well played.

On a side note, I HATE Roger Clemens.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by pennywisesb

Well played.

On a side note, I HATE Roger Clemens.

Is that because he's white?

[Ryche]

Joe Mauer is on the DL now with a strained quadriceps muscle. But it sounds like the team is afraid that there might be a tear in there, which would keep him out longer than 15 days. Seems like no one in the Twins offense can stay healthy right now.

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=109

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by dangarion

Is that because he's white?

Never. Race is never a factor in hating a player.

[kingfc22]

ESPN. Get a clue. The whole country could care less about Roger Clemens and the Yankees!!!

[Karlifornia]

God..did you hear that chick..I think it was Andrea Kremer, after the Clemens announcement? It sounded like she was gonna have an orgasm. Ridiculous.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

God..did you hear that chick..I think it was Andrea Kremer, after the Clemens announcement? It sounded like she was gonna have an orgasm. Ridiculous.

I wonder if you mean the Yankee Homer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzyn_Waldman

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

I wonder if you mean the Yankee Homer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzyn_Waldman

she's originally from boston? originally a sox fan? I don't think so. No self-respecting person who would ever call themselves a red sox fan would be caught dead working for the evil empire for any amount of money.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Joel Zumaya looks like he's going to be out for awhile. He heard a loud "pop" in his middle finger and had "shocking pain." I'm assuming that's not a good sign...

Well, Guitar Hero 2 did come out for the XBox recently. Just sayin'

SI

[Buccaneer]

Apparently I still live under a rock. I saw at Sportsline that the Hall of Fame Game is in 13+ days. I thought that was kind of early since I knew Tony and whathisface won't be inducted until August. I looked it up at the HoF site and they have been playing the HoF game in May/June the past 4 years. Why did they move it out of Induction Weekend?

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Never. Race is never a factor in hating a player.

I dunno. I hate Barry Bonds because he's black.

I mean, Joe Morgan says so, it must be true.

(I hate him first and foremost because he's a Giant. Whether or not he's a cheater - and I think he is - is totally irrelevant to the hate!)