POTUS 2016 General Election Discussion Thread

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Not sure if it has been said, but I think JIMGA, tarcone, and MBBF deserve a bit of praise. Y'all really had every right to have been insufferable jackasses last night, and you weren't. {tips hat}

Agreed. They called it and had a better sense of what was going on that we were just not seeing or able to believe.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Imran, you have professed belief in God. Put your faith in Him and not in men/women. Remember what Paul wrote to his disciple Timothy, "“I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.”"

I know. But still the Psalms are filled with lament. For a reason.

Originally Posted by Dutch

These are extreme emotional responses after a shocking upset. I remember left-wingers saying white people were going to assassinate Barack Obama too. It's just fear-mongering. Please tell your friends to just relax. It's unrealistic to be scared to death because your party didn't win an election.

Listen to Van Jones on CNN after it was obvious Trump was going to win. At least the Obama Administration's Justice Dept was taking on racist police forces - now even that is lost for them. And they are scared as to what will be done against the BLM movement that they strongly support and feel is necessary. All of them are scared. I think they have every right to be scared. And I'm not sure it's helpful to tell another racial minority that they shouldn't be scared when I don't face what they face.

[lungs]

Good illustration from Wisconsin of what went wrong for Hillary:
Milwaukee County
Obama 2012: 328,090 votes
Clinton 2016: 288,986 votes

Obama won my county (Sauk) 59-40 in 2012.
Hillary won my county by less than a percentage point. While not huge numbers in my county, it is reflective of Trump's appeal in the western part of the state that decides elections here.

Not sure if Hillary showing her face would've helped, but she probably would have stayed in the safe confines of Madison or Milwaukee. On the statewide level, Democrats have proven they can't win elections with lukewarm turnout in Madison/Milwaukee (Scott Walker, anybody?). That usually means that Western Wisconsin will go more Red than they normally do.

Clinton also got destroyed in Green Bay. Not surprising, but it's an area that a Democrat needs to be competitive.

Feingold getting absolutely destroyed by Ron Johnson was probably more shocking to me than Trump winning.

[nilodor]

From outside the country I have to say this result was pretty terrifying. The view here is that we hope that Trump realizes he doesn't know much so he hires really smart people to run the government. Kinda like what Reagan did. The difference being Reagan was a kind person.

Is there a sense that electing Trump was a vote for fear? Fear in how the country is changing, how quickly world views are changing?

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I know. But still the Psalms are filled with lament. For a reason.

I have been meditating on Psalms 56 these past few months, for things that are happening at work and in my life. There is an answer when one cries out:

Whenever I am afraid,
I will trust in You.
In God (I will praise His word),
In God I have put my trust;
I will not fear.
What can flesh do to me?

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by nilodor

Is there a sense that electing Trump was a vote for fear? Fear in how the country is changing, how quickly world views are changing?

That's the spin in my neck of the woods.

[TCY Junkie]

I often just jump into conversation and don't make it clear where I am coming from. Saw someone posted Clinton getting hammered in betting in this thread and I wanted to warn people. Said things that didn't make it clear why I was posting. Trump supports are not all assholes. Was trying to get people to get along better..... Media is corrupt. Tell you what makes them money or their agenda. For example, the horse that won the breeders cup. The race before he got a new jockey. Espn said the previous jockey was mad at not picking that horse after it won by a ton. I was reading a horse forum and guy mentioned how the jockey had to ride for different owner that race and he rather ride the winner for sure.That he knew it was a special horse. Told my uncle this, he said the newspaper also said the jockey was mad he made bad choice as he had his picks of horses. The jockey had an agreement with another owner and why he had to honor that agreement. Media just tries to sell things or slant things, can't even tell how trump is because of it. People weren't voting for Trump, they were voting against Clinton.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I have been meditating on Psalms 56 these past few months, for things that are happening at work and in my life. There is an answer when one cries out:

Whenever I am afraid,
I will trust in You.
In God (I will praise His word),
In God I have put my trust;
I will not fear.
What can flesh do to me?

I think sometimes we need to be in Good Friday first for a while before we can think of the hopes of Easter. This would be one of those times. I have plenty of church friends posting Scripture on their Facebook walls, but abiding in the grief and pain and allowing Christ to be with us in that pain (the Theology of the Cross) is important too.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Arles

Finally, I think democrats need to understand the main demographic lesson on election day:

White men over the age of 40 will come out in droves to vote against a candidate they loathe.
Young people will only vote when they feel inspired by the candidate on their side.

Young people just weren't that jazzed by Hillary and decided not to vote. It's hard for the democrats to win when they run out the "old veteran who deserves a turn" (a la Gore, Kerry, Hillary, ..). They need a candidate who inspires the young vote (like Bill and Obama did). Now, as the current younger people in their 20s get older, I think the voting block will shift a little more left (esp on social issues). But, there's also a chance that as young people get more money and careers, they shift republican as well. Either way, democrats need to look for a candidate that inspires in 2020 - not just who's "next in line".

Yeah, I somewhat agree with this. I think the Dems learned a very painful lesson here about needing someone who energizes their base, not someone who is slightly less unpopular than the other candidate and campaigns almost exclusively on that fact. I couldn't really tell you many of Hilary's campaign positions, as much as I disagree with most of them I could definitely tell you Trump's. I don't think I saw a positive Hilary advert talking about her positions the entire campaign. Then she comes out with basket of deplorables and spends a decent chunk of the debates at Trump's level slinging insults back and forth, I can understand why she lost.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Listen to Van Jones on CNN after it was obvious Trump was going to win. At least the Obama Administration's Justice Dept was taking on racist police forces - now even that is lost for them. And they are scared as to what will be done against the BLM movement that they strongly support and feel is necessary. All of them are scared. I think they have every right to be scared. And I'm not sure it's helpful to tell another racial minority that they shouldn't be scared when I don't face what they face.

Well, I did listen to Van Jones. It was extremely dramatic. Van Jones is scared and telling other via CNN to be scared. People will believe it because Van Jones says it. There is no denying that TV people have generated much of our fears one way or the other. Mostly scary anti-right wing because they are vastly left-wing ideologues.

Anyway, back to the point, I don't see any plausible way where Trump is going to go all 1940's racist. It's a left-wing fearongering talking point, not reality. So tell your friends to relax. They will be fine.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I am gutted. I put my heart and soul into this candidate. To paraphrase JIMG from the early 2000s, this candidate was the closest candidate to holding my views that I've ever experienced. And the polls were wrong. Dramatically so. So there is the shock of, say, the undefeated New England Patriots losing to the New York Giants with immense, immense grief. And I'm scared of what is to come. My family are Muslims. I have friends who are black who are scared to death of what's next to come.

Trump was able to find those voters in the upper Midwest that probably not even he thought would vote for him. But I'm still in grief and shock and can't really process it right now.

I think the internal data and intelligence of both Trump and Clinton had told a different story, judging by where and how they campaigned in the last few weeks. My gut kept telling me that Trump was somehow going to pull it off. I can't say that it points to anything other than just a feeling that the polls were misleading, even in the Rust Belt. I don't know why, but Bernie's upset win over Hillary in the Michigan primary to me, was a telling sign at the time.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Well, I did listen to Van Jones. It was extremely dramatic. Van Jones is scared and telling other via CNN to be scared. People will believe it because Van Jones says it. There is no denying that TV people have generated much of our fears one way or the other. Mostly scary anti-right wing because they are vastly left-wing ideologues.

Anyway, back to the point, I don't see any plausible way where Trump is going to go all 1940's racist. It's a left-wing fearongering talking point, not reality. So tell your friends to relax. They will be fine.

I agree with this 100%. Scare tactics are used by both sides this campaign.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Well, I did listen to Van Jones. It was extremely dramatic. Van Jones is scared and telling other via CNN to be scared. People will believe it because Van Jones says it. There is no denying that TV people have generated much of our fears one way or the other. Mostly scary anti-right wing because they are vastly left-wing ideologues.

Anyway, back to the point, I don't see any plausible way where Trump is going to go all 1940's racist. It's a left-wing fearongering talking point, not reality. So tell your friends to relax. They will be fine.

No, it's what African-Americans around the country feel. It's not dramatic. It's based on how Trump spoke about the BLM movement. How Trump has spoken about cops shooting black people. So stop trying to tell black people how they should feel. Especially when they feel they are finally getting a voice in our society and then to find a President-elect who is completely against that voice being expressed or heard.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I think the internal data and intelligence of both Trump and Clinton had told a different story, judging by where and how they campaigned in the last few weeks. My gut kept telling me that Trump was somehow going to pull it off. I can't say that it points to anything other than just a feeling that the polls were misleading, even in the Rust Belt. I don't know why, but Bernie's upset win over Hillary in the Michigan primary to me, was a telling sign at the time.

Apparently the Trump campaigns internal polling showed him losing Wisconsin and Michigan - they were telling networks early in the day that they expected 240 Electoral Votes. This was a complete surprise to them... maybe not the candidate himself, but to the campaign most definitely.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Anyway, back to the point, I don't see any plausible way where Trump is going to go all 1940's racist. It's a left-wing fearongering talking point, not reality. So tell your friends to relax. They will be fine.

It's not a left-wing fear mongering talking point. It was words from Trump himself. He struck a bit of a conciliatory tone in his victory speech last night, but when he has basically spent the entire campaign talking about the danger of brown people, it's more than a little disingenuous to say now that he won, those same brown people "will be fine". Trump ran on a platform of division, so it's a reasonable reaction to be afraid of what his leadership will bring in that regard.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Apparently the Trump campaigns internal polling showed him losing Wisconsin and Michigan - they were telling networks early in the day that they expected 240 Electoral Votes. This was a complete surprise to them... maybe not the candidate himself, but to the campaign most definitely.

https://www.wired.com/2016/11/trump-polling-data/

Good article from Wired.

[miami_fan]

Just based on where this thread is going, what is going to be the left's equivalent of "The elite not listening to the common man" on the right?

[PilotMan]

The Trump campaign had been playing the long con all along. They were playing with house money, and there was no need to change the dialogue. It just so happened that they get to look really smart now, because that bluff worked.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

https://www.wired.com/2016/11/trump-polling-data/

Good article from Wired.

Interesting. Almost like a "Moneyball" if you will of polling(ish) data. So while the internal polls showed a top limit, these analysts were saying we may still have a chance based on early voting numbers. And they did.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

The Trump campaign had been playing the long con all along. They were playing with house money, and there was no need to change the dialogue. It just so happened that they get to look really smart now, because that bluff worked.

In other words running a political campaign?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

No, it's what African-Americans around the country feel. It's not dramatic. It's based on how Trump spoke about the BLM movement. How Trump has spoken about cops shooting black people. So stop trying to tell black people how they should feel. Especially when they feel they are finally getting a voice in our society and then to find a President-elect who is completely against that voice being expressed or heard.

Look, the problem with the all-or-nothing voting block called African-Americans is when their party loses they all feel they aren't having their voice heard. There is no escaping that truth. It's still a battle between Republicans and Democrats, remember that. It's simply not a battle between racists and non-racists. That's the fear-mongering that we have heard all along in the MSM. White people arent nearly as bad as you think.

[cuervo72]

As long as you agree with them and conform to their standards.

[tucker rocky]

Originally Posted by Butter

Recreational marijuana now legal in California, Massachusetts, and Nevada in addition to being already legal in Washington, Colorado, Oregon, Alaska, and DC.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by panerd

In other words running a political campaign?

More than that I think. Yes, to an extent each candidate has to be over riding in their positivity to project success. But never has a candidate been so secretive with his own assets and public policy positions and been able to carry that all the way to the White House. Any other election the sheet is pulled away long before now and he's got to actually start putting his shit together. He never really had to here, all he kept saying was Trust me. That's it. He won on Trust Me.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

As long as you agree with them and conform to their standards.

For instance?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Look, the problem with the all-or-nothing voting block called African-Americans is when their party loses they all feel they aren't having their voice heard.

No. Sorry, you don't get it at all. Any other Republican would not have resulted in this fear. The fact that you can't see it indicates your massive blinders.

[molson]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

As long as you agree with them and conform to their standards.

You could say this about any group (at least ones with strong positions on anything). To conservatives, liberals don't exactly seem like open-minded people that respect their values. People don't see the BLM movement as something that's tolerant to those who criticize it about anything.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by nilodor

From outside the country I have to say this result was pretty terrifying. The view here is that we hope that Trump realizes he doesn't know much so he hires really smart people to run the government. Kinda like what Reagan did. The difference being Reagan was a kind person.

Is there a sense that electing Trump was a vote for fear? Fear in how the country is changing, how quickly world views are changing?

I think it was a couple things.

1) I think we're seeing that a segment of the population felt ignored. These would be working class white folks. Parts of the country that have seen jobs leaving on a regular basis along with no action from government. The media has completely ignored them and when they speak up they're told to sit down and shut up because they aren't a minority.

So you have this group that is struggling while simultaneously being told they are priveleged. They are grasping for any kind of change. Clinton barely acknowledges them during her campaign. She's hosting concerts with Katy Perry and other Hollywood celebrties. On the other hand, Trump is going out there giving them some hope. He told them he'll get jobs back, that he'll punish the companies that are taking those jobs, and so on. Sure his plan could all be bullshit, but he's acting like he gives a shit which is something new. So they're going to latch on to that.

This was typically an area that Democrats did well in. Obama got 63% of the union vote in Ohio 4 years ago. Hillary got 46% this election. Hillary lost because poorer, working class people who typically voted heavily in the Democrat's favor decided not to show up or vote Trump instead.

2) I really think the outrage culture hurt the left. Years of the job lynch mobs roaming around trying to get people fired for an off-color joke or holding a differing political opinion. Seeing protests at colleges over Halloween costumes or cultural appropriation in the dining hall. Blocking busy roads at rush hour. Every time I saw one of these things I knew a chunk of the population saw it as an overreach. I feel like Trump is kind of a reaction to that.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Interesting. Almost like a "Moneyball" if you will of polling(ish) data. So while the internal polls showed a top limit, these analysts were saying we may still have a chance based on early voting numbers. And they did.

One thing to also remember is Trump actually did slightly better percentage wise with African Americans and Hispanics than Romney did according the national exit poll from NBC News (6 to 8% for African Americans; 27% to 29% with Hispanics). I'm not saying this delivered anything, but the data and science behind the data is pretty interesting.

Hillary seems like she had a natural ceiling that reflected in the polls, where Trump, like during the primaries, didn't. One thing I also heard--can't remember--that Trump supporters, or at least voters, weren't as willing to engage in polling and even the exit polls as much.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

No. Sorry, you don't get it at all. Any other Republican would not have resulted in this fear. The fact that you can't see it indicates your massive blinders.

It's an irrational fear stoked by charlatans profiting off faux activism.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

All these people who are paralyzed with fear and some people internationally need to take a step back from the edge of the cliff. Most Americans who voted for Trump truly held their nose as they did so. Holding the irrational belief that Trump is going to act like a dictator now that he is in office doesn't give credit to the 300+ million rational people in this country that will keep him in check (or toss his ass out quickly) if he does so.

Much like the fear mongering that occurred when Obama was elected, most of this fear will simply amount to little more than needless worry.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think it was a couple things.

1) I think we're seeing that a segment of the population felt ignored. These would be working class white folks. Parts of the country that have seen jobs leaving on a regular basis along with no action from government. The media has completely ignored them and when they speak up they're told to sit down and shut up because they aren't a minority.

So you have this group that is struggling while simultaneously being told they are priveleged. They are grasping for any kind of change. Clinton barely acknowledges them during her campaign. She's hosting concerts with Katy Perry and other Hollywood celebrties. On the other hand, Trump is going out there giving them some hope. He told them he'll get jobs back, that he'll punish the companies that are taking those jobs, and so on. Sure his plan could all be bullshit, but he's acting like he gives a shit which is something new. So they're going to latch on to that.

This was typically an area that Democrats did well in. Obama got 63% of the union vote in Ohio 4 years ago. Hillary got 46% this election. Hillary lost because poorer, working class people who typically voted heavily in the Democrat's favor decided not to show up or vote Trump instead.

2) I really think the outrage culture hurt the left. Years of the job lynch mobs roaming around trying to get people fired for an off-color joke or holding a differing political opinion. Seeing protests at colleges over Halloween costumes or cultural appropriation in the dining hall. Blocking busy roads at rush hour. Every time I saw one of these things I knew a chunk of the population saw it as an overreach. I feel like Trump is kind of a reaction to that.

I thought the celebrity concerts over the last few days were a really bad optics mood (and another thing that kind of had me worried that she was pulling in all of these people right at the end). One thing I think Democrats need to do is detach themselves from Hollywood in campaigning and messaging. Just do your job (music, act, ect.) and get out of my face with the holier-than-thou preaching.

[QuikSand]

Life Outside the Liberal Bubble

By J. D. VANCE

Good read.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I thought the celebrity concerts over the last few days were a really bad optics mood (and another thing that kind of had me worried that she was pulling in all of these people right at the end). One thing I think Democrats need to do is detach themselves from Hollywood in campaigning and messaging.

They did it in Pennsylvania and North Carolina too. How out of touch can you be to hold concerts with Katy Perry and Lady Gaga in two blue collar states? Who are they trying to connect with?

[Galaxy]

I also do think this was a referendum on Obama's Presidency as well in addition to Hillary.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Dutch

For instance?

Choices of music, clothing, hair styles, baby names...

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I also do think this was a referendum on Obama's Presidency as well in addition to Hillary.

I'm not sure it was. I voted for Johnson because I couldn't stomach either candidate. With that said, and this even shocks me, I think I would have voted for Obama if he was running against Trump in this election. He is 10x the better candidate over Hillary IMO.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I also do think this was a referendum on Obama's Presidency as well in addition to Hillary.

Obama is still at 55% in approval. I think the republican base rallied against Obama, but they were voting republican no matter what. Millions of people who voted for Obama did not feel the need to vote for Hillary. I think her campaign took certain voting blocks for granted (union members, African Americans, young people, states like Wisconsin and Michigan) and tried to keep hammering Trump instead of giving reasons to believe in her.

[RainMaker]

Yeah I think this was all about Democratic turnout.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Choices of music, clothing, hair styles, baby names...

Oh, okay.

[CrimsonFox]

@Thomkal

Your basement space is all ready and the games are all set up. We'll play to the end of eternity which should be by next week Thursday?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'm not sure it was. I voted for Johnson because I couldn't stomach either candidate. With that said, and this even shocks me, I think I would have voted for Obama if he was running against Trump in this election. He is 10x the better candidate over Hillary IMO.

I generally liked Obama.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Arles

Obama is still at 55% in approval. I think the republican base rallied against Obama, but they were voting republican no matter what. Millions of people who voted for Obama did not feel the need to vote for Hillary. I think her campaign took certain voting blocks for granted (union members, African Americans, young people, states like Wisconsin and Michigan) and tried to keep hammering Trump instead of giving reasons to believe in her.

Right on again, IMO. Who ever would have had me agreeing 100% with Arlie in a political thread

[bob]

I feel that dems might want to avoid doubling down on the "Trump only won because white male's are racist."

[Butter]

So, Hillary gets pardoned now for sure, right?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by bob

I feel that dems might want to avoid doubling down on the "Trump only won because white male's are racist."

In fairness they are also saying white women are racist too now.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Butter

So, Hillary gets pardoned now for sure, right?

Yeah, I wouldn't doubt it. Can't wait until the list of pardons and commutations come out.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

Obama is still at 55% in approval. I think the republican base rallied against Obama, but they were voting republican no matter what. Millions of people who voted for Obama did not feel the need to vote for Hillary. I think her campaign took certain voting blocks for granted (union members, African Americans, young people, states like Wisconsin and Michigan) and tried to keep hammering Trump instead of giving reasons to believe in her.

Jacobin had an interesting article and I wanted to highlight part of it:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/11/t...ocratic-party/

This was Clinton’s election to lose. And she lost. A lot of the blame will fall on Clinton the candidate, but she only embodied the consensus of this generation of Democratic Party leaders. Under President Obama, Democrats have lost almost a thousand state-legislature seats, a dozen gubernatorial races, sixty-nine House seats and thirteen in the Senate. Last night didn’t come out of nowhere.

The basic idea being that the Democrats have been losing rural areas for a long while based on neo-liberal policies and Obama is popular now, but it wasn't all that long ago when he was under 50% and, as pointed out, the Democrats have lost a ton of lower level seats under Obama. It could be that his personal charisma is what is bolstering those numbers.

Jacobin, of course, suggests the Democrats go back to working-class politics. Basically strong pro-union, anti-trade - like Bernie Sanders.

Which makes me wonder if they'll take that advice and another party is going to be leaving me behind. Guess being an independent isn't all that lonely these days.

[Dutch]

I still believe the Republican Party is the one with a massive overhaul. We may see it from within. This is an anomaly victory where establishment R's like myself joined forces with non-establishment R's to win. I wouldn't count on us being this unified forever.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

1) I think we're seeing that a segment of the population felt ignored. These would be working class white folks. Parts of the country that have seen jobs leaving on a regular basis along with no action from government. The media has completely ignored them and when they speak up they're told to sit down and shut up because they aren't a minority.

So you have this group that is struggling while simultaneously being told they are priveleged. They are grasping for any kind of change. Clinton barely acknowledges them during her campaign. She's hosting concerts with Katy Perry and other Hollywood celebrties. On the other hand, Trump is going out there giving them some hope. He told them he'll get jobs back, that he'll punish the companies that are taking those jobs, and so on. Sure his plan could all be bullshit, but he's acting like he gives a shit which is something new. So they're going to latch on to that.

This was typically an area that Democrats did well in. Obama got 63% of the union vote in Ohio 4 years ago. Hillary got 46% this election. Hillary lost because poorer, working class people who typically voted heavily in the Democrat's favor decided not to show up or vote Trump instead.

This viewpoint tends to mirror an article I read last month that attempted to explain the appeal of Trump. In hindsight, it seems like it was pretty spot on with its assessment.

How Half Of America Lost Its F**king Mind