2012-13 NBA Regular Season Thread, Feel the Heat - Page 10

TroyF · 01-02-2013, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

To think Blake isn't a superstar is silly. He's one of the most marketable players in the NBA right now and that is what defines a superstar at this point. Is he the best player in the NBA? Certainly not, he's not even the best player on his team

I know, I'm old. Ancient. But I still believe a superstar should get the title because, oh, he's actually one of the best players in the league. Look, Serge Ibaka isn't the best player on his own team. He's as good or better than Blake Griffin. He's not a superstar.

So if you define superstar by marketing efforts, great, Griffin is a big time stud.

If you define it by actually being a great NBA player, he isn't. The Clippers are going to be paying him 14-17 million a year after this season. He simply is not worth that kind of money.

If he doesn't make a massive jump from where he is right now, he's going to destroy that team by the time he's done.

miami_fan · 01-02-2013, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyF

I know, I'm old. Ancient. But I still believe a superstar should get the title because, oh, he's actually one of the best players in the league. Look, Serge Ibaka isn't the best player on his own team. He's as good or better than Blake Griffin. He's not a superstar.

So if you define superstar by marketing efforts, great, Griffin is a big time stud.

If you define it by actually being a great NBA player, he isn't. The Clippers are going to be paying him 14-17 million a year after this season. He simply is not worth that kind of money.

If he doesn't make a massive jump from where he is right now, he's going to destroy that team by the time he's done.

If NBA executives paid players based on them actually being a great NBA player, we would not have had a lockout last year and not have to deal with the next lockout in 2021.

Groundhog · 01-02-2013, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

This...but to me...he is dead now...he ran out one of the best coaches in the league in Utah as a deal for him staying and then he makes a request/forces the Jazz hand...

My love for the Jazz went bye bye after this...

I've never been a Jazz fan, but I always loved watching them play in the Sloan days. Sloan got the best out of his players and, similar to what Pop does in San Antonio, put guys in a position to succeed based on their skillsets. He definitely got the best out of Deron, who was my top NBA PG at the time. After what went down in Utah I would never cheer for Deron again, and he's now shown that his production was at least 10-15% Sloan.

bhlloy · 01-02-2013, 04:58 PM

I wonder how long it takes Brooklyn to lose interest in a Nets team that looks like it will be an absolute train wreck within the next couple of years

RainMaker · 01-02-2013, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyF

If you define it by actually being a great NBA player, he isn't. The Clippers are going to be paying him 14-17 million a year after this season. He simply is not worth that kind of money.

He's worth that money. Veterans are almost always going to be overpaid because of how the CBA is setup, and those on rookie deals will be underpaid.

Put it this way, could the Clippers replace Blake Griffin in the free agent market with that money? My guess is no. Maybe they could build a better bench, but you can only play 5 guys. Those guys who are good or better are incredibly valuable and difficult to find in the FA market.

It's not so much looking at the player, their numbers, and their salary. It's figuring out whether that money can be spent better elsewhere. I don't think they can get close to bringing in a player of his caliber.

chadritt · 01-02-2013, 06:02 PM

Whats wrong with taking the marketing into account a bit? Theyre almost certainly making more money by having Blake Griffin than by having a statistically equivalent player who they cant market as well.

Atocep · 01-02-2013, 06:17 PM

Tim Tebow = Superstar

stevew · 01-02-2013, 06:28 PM

Griffin getting superstar calls from the refs basically makes him a star I guess.

TroyF · 01-02-2013, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

He's worth that money. Veterans are almost always going to be overpaid because of how the CBA is setup, and those on rookie deals will be underpaid.

Put it this way, could the Clippers replace Blake Griffin in the free agent market with that money? My guess is no. Maybe they could build a better bench, but you can only play 5 guys. Those guys who are good or better are incredibly valuable and difficult to find in the FA market.

It's not so much looking at the player, their numbers, and their salary. It's figuring out whether that money can be spent better elsewhere. I don't think they can get close to bringing in a player of his caliber.

Look, I get how the economics of the game work. I also understand his "superstar" status gives the Clippers calls. He slapped Andre Miller across the face last night when he had five fouls and the refs let it go. (the Nuggets actually dominated inside the paint last night and were somehow called for 8 more fouls than the Clippers were)

I also get last year he was in the top 10 in scoring and rebounding. But his per 48 numbers in scoring and rebounding are moving in the wrong direction. (down every year of his career) He has 13 double doubles this year, Faried has 14 against a tougher slate of opponents. Griffin is a good passing big man as well.

A 15 million dollar a year player though? Okily dokily. So the Clippers are going to give a crapload of money to Paul after this year (and his knees might both be gone by the time I finish this sentence) and have Griffin as the second option?

Better win it this year boys, your window is SHORT.

Young Drachma · 01-02-2013, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I wonder how long it takes Brooklyn to lose interest in a Nets team that looks like it will be an absolute train wreck within the next couple of years

The fact they got that arena built where they did means that even if they're terrible, they'll still be far better than the team would've been had they stayed irrelevant in Jersey even in Newark (versus the Meadowlands) and so it won't matter.

Absolutely worst case, it's a cheaper ticket to see NBA basketball in NYC without having to travel to Jersey.

MrBug708 · 01-02-2013, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

it depends on how you define superstar - marketability vs. playing ability.

he's a marketing-superstar, not an ability-superstar.

Which one makes you an NBA All Star?

bulletsponge · 01-02-2013, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I wonder how long it takes Brooklyn to lose interest in a Nets team that looks like it will be an absolute train wreck within the next couple of years

dude, theyve been watching the Knicks. they are quiet use to train wrecks

Logan · 01-02-2013, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyF

A 15 million dollar a year player though? Okily dokily. So the Clippers are going to give a crapload of money to Paul after this year (and his knees might both be gone by the time I finish this sentence) and have Griffin as the second option?

Better win it this year boys, your window is SHORT.

We had this discussion re: Harden. The salary structure in the NBA is a mess. Take a look at some of the players that are being paid $10 million to $12 million. It's really hard to justify Griffin not being worth what he's paid in comparison.

RainMaker · 01-02-2013, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyF

Look, I get how the economics of the game work. I also understand his "superstar" status gives the Clippers calls. He slapped Andre Miller across the face last night when he had five fouls and the refs let it go. (the Nuggets actually dominated inside the paint last night and were somehow called for 8 more fouls than the Clippers were)

I also get last year he was in the top 10 in scoring and rebounding. But his per 48 numbers in scoring and rebounding are moving in the wrong direction. (down every year of his career) He has 13 double doubles this year, Faried has 14 against a tougher slate of opponents. Griffin is a good passing big man as well.

A 15 million dollar a year player though? Okily dokily. So the Clippers are going to give a crapload of money to Paul after this year (and his knees might both be gone by the time I finish this sentence) and have Griffin as the second option?

Better win it this year boys, your window is SHORT.

I don't get the hate for Griffin. He's been one of the most efficient power forwards in the league the last couple years. He's 23 years old. You're griping over an incredibly small drop in some numbers. A drop that still leaves him as one of the best PFs in the game.

Like I said, what exactly do you think they should do with that money instead?

Groundhog · 01-02-2013, 09:26 PM

Is Austin Rivers the worst starter in the NBA right now? Without looking at a gamelog, he seems to have more 0-whatever shooting games than any starter I can recall. 1-5 FG today and 1-6 FTs. Sheesh.

TroyF · 01-02-2013, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't get the hate for Griffin. He's been one of the most efficient power forwards in the league the last couple years. He's 23 years old. You're griping over an incredibly small drop in some numbers. A drop that still leaves him as one of the best PFs in the game.

Like I said, what exactly do you think they should do with that money instead?

No, it really doesn't. That's where the problem is. At the moment, even using conventional numbers, it's really tough to list him as an all star in his own conference, much less "one of the top PF in the game"

YMMV, but I would list Duncan, Lee, Love, Randolph and Ibaka ahead of his right now. Faried is better in advanced stats, but if you want to call Griffin better because he shoots a little more, I'm ok with that one. The Unibrow isn't far off his numbers and he can make free throws.

We go to the East and we have Varejao, Noah, Bosh, and Horford.

I haven't even counted Cousins, Milsap, Pau or Aldredge.

Griffin is not a very good defensive player despite his explosiveness. (the Clippers are 10 points better when he's off the court than on it for defense) So to say he's one of the top PF's in the game, it had better be by his offensive game.

This isn't me hating, it's me wondering how he's considered such a wonderful player with a consistent decline in statistics (conventional and advanced) It is me wondering how he has now regressed to the point I would question him being even an all star in his own conference.

If you want to view those questions as hate, I can deal with it.

TroyF · 01-02-2013, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Is Austin Rivers the worst starter in the NBA right now? Without looking at a gamelog, he seems to have more 0-whatever shooting games than any starter I can recall. 1-5 FG today and 1-6 FTs. Sheesh.

There was an article last week on ESPN that said he is having the worst season of all time. According to Kevin Pelton (founder of WARP), Rivers projects to 7 wins worse than a replacement player this year. Worse than anyone in the 34 years he has in his database. The second and third worst seasons in his database were Jason Collins and Adam Morrison, both in the '06-07' seasons.

bhlloy · 01-02-2013, 10:39 PM

The thought that anyone could be a worse NBA player than Adam Morrison is terrifying, maybe the Mayans were just a couple months off after all

Groundhog · 01-02-2013, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyF

There was an article last week on ESPN that said he is having the worst season of all time. According to Kevin Pelton (founder of WARP), Rivers projects to 7 wins worse than a replacement player this year. Worse than anyone in the 34 years he has in his database. The second and third worst seasons in his database were Jason Collins and Adam Morrison, both in the '06-07' seasons.

Yowzers... so, somehow, he's even worse than I guessed!

One of the first games of the season I remember seeing him have a 2 minute stretch where I honestly felt it looked like what would happen if I went out on an NBA court and tried to play with the pros.

I don't think you could say the jury is out on him as an NBA player given his age and supposed potential, but certainly he belongs in the NBDL right now while the Hornets gauge Xavier Henry and Brian Roberts.

RainMaker · 01-02-2013, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyF

YMMV, but I would list Duncan, Lee, Love, Randolph and Ibaka ahead of his right now. Faried is better in advanced stats, but if you want to call Griffin better because he shoots a little more, I'm ok with that one. The Unibrow isn't far off his numbers and he can make free throws.

Advanced stats? Griffin is 2nd in the NBA in PER among PFs. Was 2nd last year as well. He's 2nd in win shares. He's a very efficient scorer (TS%) and a pretty good defensive rebounder. What advanced stats are you using here?

And if we take away the Centers you have listed (Noah, Varejao, Horford) and give you all the other names you have listed, he's still in the top 6-7 of all power forwards. Still only 23 years old.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyF

Griffin is not a very good defensive player despite his explosiveness. (the Clippers are 10 points better when he's off the court than on it for defense) So to say he's one of the top PF's in the game, it had better be by his offensive game.

He's not a good defender, but he's not as bad as you claim. The Clippers are better defensively because their bench is incredibly good defensively. The on/off stats are misleading when it comes to that. For instance the Bulls were 8 points better defensively last year when Noah was on the bench. Doesn't make him a bad defender, just meant they had a bench that was amazing defensively that played against other 2nd units.

Griffin is part of the team's best 5-man units defensively. Looking at the numbers it seems Green and Butler are the one's dragging them down on that end of the court. They are much better defensively with Crawford and/or Barnes.

But again, how are you going to spend that money better than Griffin? That's the big question. The going rate for guys like Iliasova and Taj Gibson are nearly $10 million a year. Brook Lopez got a max contract. So what is a better way to spend that money?

Neon_Chaos · 01-02-2013, 11:07 PM

Roy Hibbert has a max contract.

Blake Griffin deserves it, on marketability alone.

TroyF · 01-02-2013, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Advanced stats? Griffin is 2nd in the NBA in PER among PFs. Was 2nd last year as well. He's 2nd in win shares. He's a very efficient scorer (TS%) and a pretty good defensive rebounder. What advanced stats are you using here?

And if we take away the Centers you have listed (Noah, Varejao, Horford) and give you all the other names you have listed, he's still in the top 6-7 of all power forwards. Still only 23 years old.

He's not a good defender, but he's not as bad as you claim. The Clippers are better defensively because their bench is incredibly good defensively. The on/off stats are misleading when it comes to that. For instance the Bulls were 8 points better defensively last year when Noah was on the bench. Doesn't make him a bad defender, just meant they had a bench that was amazing defensively that played against other 2nd units.

Griffin is part of the team's best 5-man units defensively. Looking at the numbers it seems Green and Butler are the one's dragging them down on that end of the court. They are much better defensively with Crawford and/or Barnes.

But again, how are you going to spend that money better than Griffin? That's the big question. The going rate for guys like Iliasova and Taj Gibson are nearly $10 million a year. Brook Lopez got a max contract. So what is a better way to spend that money?

I listed 15 players who were either better than, even with or damned close to Blake Griffin. Take away 3 and it still only puts him in the top third of NBA PF's.

I can't argue with the max contract. You have to do it to keep Paul. You have to do it because someone else will pay him. You have to do it because of his popularity. That's like me saying he wouldn't be an all star in his own conference if merit based play was part of the equation. Of course he'll be an all star. Even if he wasn't voted in by the fans, he would be one because of his rep.

The question is, is he worth it? You keep bringing up age and I'm ok with that. But it's not like all the players I listed are ancient. Ibaka and Faried are 23. (and both are over 6 months younger than Griffin who turns 24 in a few months) Love is 24 (about 8 months older than Griffin). Unibrow is 19. If I had a team that was a power forward away from winning a title this year, I'd take Ibaka and Love over Griffin right now. (and if I were allowed to actually use guys over the age of 23, I'd take another 4 or 5 guys in the western conference alone.

So no, he will get it, just like he will get his all star berth, but I'm not seeing it with what I watch.

FWIW, he's having a horrific game against one of the guys I have mentioned tonight. After three quarters, the Warriors are beating the Clippers by 20. Griffin has 8 points, 6 board and an assist in 31 minutes. Lee has 18 points, 11 boards, 5 assists in 34 minutes.

I'm not watching the game, but something must have happened to Jordan. He played 16 minutes and left without getting thrown out or in foul trouble. I think the Clippers could afford to lose Blake more than they could Deandre. Personal opinion from a hater

kingfc22 · 01-02-2013, 11:54 PM

W's taking it to the Clippers tonight.

This team is not showing any signs of slowing down.

bhlloy · 01-02-2013, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyF

I listed 15 players who were either better than, even with or damned close to Blake Griffin. Take away 3 and it still only puts him in the top third of NBA PF's.

You listed 15 guys of whom 4 or 5 aren't PF as their primary position, and at least a couple that remain are ridiculous (Milsap? The corpse of Pau Gasol?)

And you've neatly sidestepped telling us which advanced stats you're using, because like Rainmaker pretty much every one I've found puts Griffin firmly in the top 5 and ahead of most of the guys you've named, including light years ahead of Fareid.

RainMaker · 01-03-2013, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyF

I listed 15 players who were either better than, even with or damned close to Blake Griffin. Take away 3 and it still only puts him in the top third of NBA PF's.

4-5 of them were Centers. A bunch of others are not even close to Griffin (Ibaka, Milsap, Faried, Gasol). It's also odd you talk about his lack of defense and then list David Lee who is considerably worse in that aspect. Or a minor fallback statistically this season when Kevin Love has been terrible for the Wolves.

You claim statistics show he's not that good, so lets hear them. And Deandre Jordan is better? This is the guy who was getting benched for Reggie Evans in the playoffs.

TroyF · 01-03-2013, 12:50 AM

The NBA Geek - Advanced NBA Statistics for all players

Wages of wins, best set of stats there is for my money. He is behind Duncan, Faried, Ibaka, Lee, and Randolph in the west. (Do all those pass the test as pf? Varajoa has pyed close to 20 percent of his time this year at pf, and I think he is suited that role better) FWIW, Griffin is just as tall and outweighs all three of the guys mentioned. If their teams had true 7 footer, it is likely none of them would be full time centers today.

I did not say Milsap was better, but he is not far worse than Blake is either.

Ok, I give. Let us all just watch his career and see how all of hsbplays out. If he is really better than Love, Ibaka, Faried and Unibrow, it should clearly play out that way. If the Clippers win a title with him and he eats the top pfs up on the way to the title, this thing could be wapped up in your favor by the end of this season.

chadritt · 01-03-2013, 01:57 AM

What is "Wages of Wins"??? This is the first time ive even heard that or WP

Edit: N/m, found it. This makes sabremetrics look incredibly simple.

TroyF · 01-03-2013, 02:08 AM

The Wages of Wins Journal | Taking aim at the lies and damned lies in sports with stories written by the numbers.

Great site. The nba geek link earlier keeps day to day stats.

Izulde · 01-03-2013, 02:27 AM

Wages of Wins (the book) has questionable methodology according to some. I got it and Basketball on Paper for Christmas but haven't had a chance to delve into them yet.

Chief Rum · 01-03-2013, 10:37 AM

Heh... I didn't even need to say anything.

BTW, big props to the Nuggets and Warriors taking it to the Clips the past couple nights. After the win at Utah last week, I always thought the Clips' streak would liekly end in that twosome (although I had hoped they would take one).

The Clips should bounce back against the Lakers Friday night and hopefully get some revenge on the Ws on Saturday.

Vince, Pt. II · 01-03-2013, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The Clips should bounce back against the Lakers Friday night and hopefully get some revenge on the Ws on Saturday.

I love this sentence and the fact that it's not crazy this year.

whomario · 01-03-2013, 01:02 PM

The Golden State Warriors are 22-10

The Bucks meanwhile are 16-14 despite both Jennings and Ellis shooting 40% from the field (and piss poor advanced shooting stats/efficiency as well), Ilyasova only shooting 40% (and playing like shit in general).

While Rivers has been terrible (he´s shooting 56% from the FT line btw ...), Greivis Vazquez has put up pretty good numbers. Tood bad he´s also doubling as the leagues worst defender when paired against PGs are quick 2s ...

Omer Asik is well on his way to become an elite defensive player. Very happy that guys like him (or Marc Gasol) get recognition for their defense eventhough it´s hardly producing highlight materials.

On that note: When on the court, Duncan and Garnett are still as good and valuable as they were 5 or 10 years ago. Not saying minutes shouldn´t be a factor or that they actually are 1/2, just wanted to state how amazing it is that they still are this good with that amount of mileage on them.

Garnett hasn´t got the raw numbers (that Duncan has put up after 2 so-so season, his per36 numbers: 21.4/11.6 with 3 BPG AND 3 APG) but seeing the Celtics with him and then without him is mind boggling. His team defense is absolutely amazing to watch. If Ibaka played close to that level in that regard, we could crown the Thunder right now

korme · 01-03-2013, 04:02 PM

I know this is an NBA thread but everyone can appreciate a good dunk, this from HS Sophomore:

Groundhog · 01-03-2013, 04:40 PM

Saw that last night. Pretty incredible. Only way it seems possible is that he got a bit of lift off the defender's chest with his knee or something, because he reached his peak and then immediately stepped up again.

Groundhog · 01-04-2013, 08:43 PM

Really liking Shaun Livingston off the bench in a Cavs uni. Just a steady player who can cause a bit of havok with those long arms and doesn't make too many mistakes.

Kyrie was just cold blooded against the Bobcats in the 4th Q tonight. I love how he just settles himself into games, then turns it on in the 4th quarter.

whomario · 01-05-2013, 07:05 AM

Hope you enjoy him, i personally really like to see him play, even though there´s allways that lingering "what if" when watching him ...
I know that horrific injury is to blame for a lot, but Livingston still could be a much better player if he developed at least some 3 point shooting ability. A nba guard who hits 9 threes in 343 career games ? Wow ...
I mean, his shooting % from 16 feet out aren´t even all that bad (in the high 40s)

Especially for a role player (who isn´t an uberathlete or a shutdown defender either) that´s a problem.

Groundhog · 01-05-2013, 07:44 AM

Well, considering the guys backing up Irving prior to him coming on board were Jeremy Pargo and Donald Sloan........

hoopsguy · 01-09-2013, 07:58 AM

Honey nut cheerios?

DaddyTorgo · 01-09-2013, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Honey nut cheerios?

stevew · 01-09-2013, 12:14 PM

Andy out 6-8 weeks. There goes his trade value. I'm getting pretty close to giving up on the NBA.

Lathum · 01-09-2013, 02:38 PM

Lots of rumors the Kings are abut to become the Sonis

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/...ng-to-seattle/

Groundhog · 01-09-2013, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

Andy out 6-8 weeks. There goes his trade value. I'm getting pretty close to giving up on the NBA.

Youch. On the "plus" side, lots more PT for Zeller, considering this season is now officially a write-off. Needs to add upper body strength in a big way, but he's pretty active and has been a surprisingly good mid-range shooter.

I'm liking what Tristan Thompson is bringing this year too. He's a good rebounder and, while still painful to watch when he tries to score on anything except a dunk from in close, Andy's hustle has worn off on him.

NorvTurnerOverdrive · 01-09-2013, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

Lots of rumors the Kings are abut to become the Sonis

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/...ng-to-seattle/

not too long ago the kings had the best fans in the nba.

whomario · 01-09-2013, 04:38 PM

Love out 8-10 weeks ... Adelman out for personal reason for god knows how long.
This is getting beyond ridiculous

Spurs continue to look overseas for depth and sign Center Aron Baynes. From what i can recall of seeing him he´s a pretty athletic big man with good size who is a good roll man on offense, a decent defender and a really good rebounder.

Young Drachma · 01-09-2013, 04:41 PM

Kings were just plagued by bad ownership, but given the team didn't show up there until 1985, I feel a bit less sympathy. I just hope for historical purposes, the Kings franchise ends with 2013 and the Seattle one gets back their old history and picks up in 2013-14.

Groundhog · 01-09-2013, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whomario

Spurs continue to look overseas for depth and sign Center Aron Baynes. From what i can recall of seeing him he´s a pretty athletic big man with good size who is a good roll man on offense, a decent defender and a really good rebounder.

Hmm that's interesting. He's an Aussie. I have no idea how he has played in Europe, but I've seen him a number of times with our national team. He's a defensive-orientated big who is not all that athletic. Certainly never looked at him as an NBA-level player... Must have been impressing in the Adriatic league.

EagleFan · 01-09-2013, 07:25 PM

HeavyReign · 01-10-2013, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

Kings were just plagued by bad ownership, but given the team didn't show up there until 1985, I feel a bit less sympathy. I just hope for historical purposes, the Kings franchise ends with 2013 and the Seattle one gets back their old history and picks up in 2013-14.

I gotta believe this is what is going to happen assuming this goes through. Otherwise there would've been no point to insisting that the city got to keep the team history when the Sonics moved. Its hard to blame Kings fans when they've had a horrible product on the floor for years. The Sonics leaving really hurt my love for the NBA. For a couple years I almost never watched a game but it has slowly come back to me.

stevew · 01-10-2013, 03:48 PM

I hate seeing the Maloofs rewarded with an enormous selling price. I gotta think that if they can get the 500m, many other teams will look to sell.

Wonder if someone will buy a crappy market team like Milwaukee or Cleveland and look to move them somewhere. I wonder if Chicago could support another team.

RainMaker · 01-10-2013, 03:58 PM

Cleveland does well for its market size. The teams that should be moved or contracted are Atlanta and Charlotte.

View Poll Results: Predict your finals matchup
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Celtics vs Thunder	2	4.26%
Celtics vs Spurs	0	0%
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01-02-2013, 09:26 PM	#465
Groundhog Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia	Is Austin Rivers the worst starter in the NBA right now? Without looking at a gamelog, he seems to have more 0-whatever shooting games than any starter I can recall. 1-5 FG today and 1-6 FTs. Sheesh. __________________ Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce

01-02-2013, 11:07 PM	#471
Neon_Chaos Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Parañaque, Philippines	Roy Hibbert has a max contract. Blake Griffin deserves it, on marketability alone. __________________ Come and see.

01-02-2013, 11:54 PM	#473
kingfc22 Head Coach Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Morgan Hill, CA	W's taking it to the Clippers tonight. This team is not showing any signs of slowing down. __________________ Fan of SF Giants, 49ers, Sharks, Arsenal

01-03-2013, 12:50 AM	#476
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	The NBA Geek - Advanced NBA Statistics for all players Wages of wins, best set of stats there is for my money. He is behind Duncan, Faried, Ibaka, Lee, and Randolph in the west. (Do all those pass the test as pf? Varajoa has pyed close to 20 percent of his time this year at pf, and I think he is suited that role better) FWIW, Griffin is just as tall and outweighs all three of the guys mentioned. If their teams had true 7 footer, it is likely none of them would be full time centers today. I did not say Milsap was better, but he is not far worse than Blake is either. Ok, I give. Let us all just watch his career and see how all of hsbplays out. If he is really better than Love, Ibaka, Faried and Unibrow, it should clearly play out that way. If the Clippers win a title with him and he eats the top pfs up on the way to the title, this thing could be wapped up in your favor by the end of this season. Last edited by TroyF : 01-03-2013 at 12:52 AM.

01-02-2013, 04:58 PM	#454
bhlloy Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2003	I wonder how long it takes Brooklyn to lose interest in a Nets team that looks like it will be an absolute train wreck within the next couple of years

01-02-2013, 06:02 PM	#456
chadritt High School Varsity Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA	Whats wrong with taking the marketing into account a bit? Theyre almost certainly making more money by having Blake Griffin than by having a statistically equivalent player who they cant market as well.

01-02-2013, 06:17 PM	#457
Atocep Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Puyallup, WA	Tim Tebow = Superstar

01-02-2013, 06:28 PM	#458
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Griffin getting superstar calls from the refs basically makes him a star I guess.

01-02-2013, 10:39 PM	#468
bhlloy Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2003	The thought that anyone could be a worse NBA player than Adam Morrison is terrifying, maybe the Mayans were just a couple months off after all

01-03-2013, 01:57 AM	#477
chadritt High School Varsity Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA	What is "Wages of Wins"??? This is the first time ive even heard that or WP Edit: N/m, found it. This makes sabremetrics look incredibly simple. Last edited by chadritt : 01-03-2013 at 02:03 AM.

01-03-2013, 02:08 AM	#478
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	The Wages of Wins Journal \| Taking aim at the lies and damned lies in sports with stories written by the numbers. Great site. The nba geek link earlier keeps day to day stats.

01-03-2013, 02:27 AM	#479
Izulde Head Coach Join Date: Sep 2004	Wages of Wins (the book) has questionable methodology according to some. I got it and Basketball on Paper for Christmas but haven't had a chance to delve into them yet. __________________ 2006 Golden Scribe Nominee 2006 Golden Scribe Winner Best Non-Sport Dynasty: May Our Reign Be Green and Golden (CK Dynasty) Rookie Writer of the Year Dynasty of the Year: May Our Reign Be Green and Golden (CK Dynasty)

01-03-2013, 10:37 AM	#480
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	Heh... I didn't even need to say anything. BTW, big props to the Nuggets and Warriors taking it to the Clips the past couple nights. After the win at Utah last week, I always thought the Clips' streak would liekly end in that twosome (although I had hoped they would take one). The Clips should bounce back against the Lakers Friday night and hopefully get some revenge on the Ws on Saturday. __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready.

01-03-2013, 01:02 PM	#482
whomario Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2007	The Golden State Warriors are 22-10 The Bucks meanwhile are 16-14 despite both Jennings and Ellis shooting 40% from the field (and piss poor advanced shooting stats/efficiency as well), Ilyasova only shooting 40% (and playing like shit in general). While Rivers has been terrible (he´s shooting 56% from the FT line btw ...), Greivis Vazquez has put up pretty good numbers. Tood bad he´s also doubling as the leagues worst defender when paired against PGs are quick 2s ... Omer Asik is well on his way to become an elite defensive player. Very happy that guys like him (or Marc Gasol) get recognition for their defense eventhough it´s hardly producing highlight materials. On that note: When on the court, Duncan and Garnett are still as good and valuable as they were 5 or 10 years ago. Not saying minutes shouldn´t be a factor or that they actually are 1/2, just wanted to state how amazing it is that they still are this good with that amount of mileage on them. Garnett hasn´t got the raw numbers (that Duncan has put up after 2 so-so season, his per36 numbers: 21.4/11.6 with 3 BPG AND 3 APG) but seeing the Celtics with him and then without him is mind boggling. His team defense is absolutely amazing to watch. If Ibaka played close to that level in that regard, we could crown the Thunder right now __________________ “The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes "Awww!”

01-03-2013, 04:02 PM	#483
korme Go Reds Join Date: May 2001 Location: Bloodbuzz Ohio	I know this is an NBA thread but everyone can appreciate a good dunk, this from HS Sophomore:

01-03-2013, 04:40 PM	#484
Groundhog Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia	Saw that last night. Pretty incredible. Only way it seems possible is that he got a bit of lift off the defender's chest with his knee or something, because he reached his peak and then immediately stepped up again. __________________ Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce

01-04-2013, 08:43 PM	#485
Groundhog Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia	Really liking Shaun Livingston off the bench in a Cavs uni. Just a steady player who can cause a bit of havok with those long arms and doesn't make too many mistakes. Kyrie was just cold blooded against the Bobcats in the 4th Q tonight. I love how he just settles himself into games, then turns it on in the 4th quarter. __________________ Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce

01-05-2013, 07:05 AM	#486
whomario Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2007	Hope you enjoy him, i personally really like to see him play, even though there´s allways that lingering "what if" when watching him ... I know that horrific injury is to blame for a lot, but Livingston still could be a much better player if he developed at least some 3 point shooting ability. A nba guard who hits 9 threes in 343 career games ? Wow ... I mean, his shooting % from 16 feet out aren´t even all that bad (in the high 40s) Especially for a role player (who isn´t an uberathlete or a shutdown defender either) that´s a problem. __________________ “The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes "Awww!” Last edited by whomario : 01-05-2013 at 07:06 AM.

01-05-2013, 07:44 AM	#487
Groundhog Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia	Well, considering the guys backing up Irving prior to him coming on board were Jeremy Pargo and Donald Sloan........ __________________ Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce

01-09-2013, 07:58 AM	#488
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Honey nut cheerios?

01-09-2013, 12:14 PM	#490
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Andy out 6-8 weeks. There goes his trade value. I'm getting pretty close to giving up on the NBA.

01-09-2013, 02:38 PM	#491
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	Lots of rumors the Kings are abut to become the Sonis http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/...ng-to-seattle/

01-09-2013, 04:38 PM	#494
whomario Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2007	Love out 8-10 weeks ... Adelman out for personal reason for god knows how long. This is getting beyond ridiculous Spurs continue to look overseas for depth and sign Center Aron Baynes. From what i can recall of seeing him he´s a pretty athletic big man with good size who is a good roll man on offense, a decent defender and a really good rebounder. __________________ “The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes "Awww!” Last edited by whomario : 01-09-2013 at 04:44 PM.

01-09-2013, 04:41 PM	#495
Young Drachma Dark Cloud Join Date: Apr 2001	Kings were just plagued by bad ownership, but given the team didn't show up there until 1985, I feel a bit less sympathy. I just hope for historical purposes, the Kings franchise ends with 2013 and the Seattle one gets back their old history and picks up in 2013-14.

01-09-2013, 07:25 PM	#497
EagleFan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mays Landing, NJ USA	__________________ The EagleFan YouTube Channel - Reactions Soarin' & Scratchin' YouTube Channel - We react to music, videos, TV, we talk, we are planning some field trips Soarin' & Soothin' - Meditation, Relaxation, and Sleep Aid; mental health is important

01-10-2013, 03:48 PM	#499
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	I hate seeing the Maloofs rewarded with an enormous selling price. I gotta think that if they can get the 500m, many other teams will look to sell. Wonder if someone will buy a crappy market team like Milwaukee or Cleveland and look to move them somewhere. I wonder if Chicago could support another team.

01-10-2013, 03:58 PM	#500
RainMaker General Manager Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	Cleveland does well for its market size. The teams that should be moved or contracted are Atlanta and Charlotte.

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