I Have Been Saved

[Danny]

The bible never addresses this, and my opinion is meaningless as only god knows, but I believe opportunity must be there. if someone never has the opportunity to accept Christ, they will not be judged.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

If you read my posts earlier, there is a difference between publicly professing your love for God and truly loving god (i.e. the difference between saying your sorry and really meaning it). I personally believe there is some sort of atonement, but it is not I to say who or what that is.



As said above, eternal destiny is not based on "actions in this life." In fact, that's the "opposite" that most Christians believe. Humans are simply prone to sin, nothing more nothing less. We try our best, but we inevitably fall short on our own.

I think you are implying there is black/white decision between "free license to do whatever the hell we want" and "trying to do absolutely nothing because we fear sinning."

In line with my balance argument above, can't is simply be both? Murderer's don't murder every day and I'm sure Mother Theresa had a choice word or two for God/Christ every now and again.

The Bible itself is litered with examples that people point to as "contradictions." In Genesis, we see God telling Abraham to sacrifice his own son. Yet, in other passages have Jesus being compassionate to those who many would consider, well, bad people. So which one is true? Why can't they both?

Perhaps the Bible is written the way it is because human beings are all individuals and all different. Tarcone, for example, needed to find his own path. This is why he called it "finding" Jesus or religion. Perhaps some people who make wrong choices need different forms of Scripture to reach them. While "fear" is considered to be a negative emotion, does it not also have positive effects? Perhaps this is God knowing us more than we really think.



Here's what I think is really going on here, and in this thread. There is a stereotype of Christians that we all hang around gay bars with signs pointing to individual choices leading to a path of everlasting destruction.

I would argue that, like most stereotypes, that is an inaccurate description of most in the Christian faith. It is no less incorrect as "all blacks are great at sports", or "all Muslims are terrorists".

Most Christians (at least those that I know), are generally good people at heart. They make mistakes, perhaps don't go to church all the time, perhaps good make better life-choices. However, using Christianity as a backbone, they try to do their best to make sense out of a world that, at times makes little sense at all.

Again, well said.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

A man could sin in all kinds of horrible ways before THEN seeing the light, and accepting the "presence of Christ and God", and get in to heaven.

Unless he commited blaspheme, which is the one sin out of all of them that won't be forgiven.

Christ didn't pick and choose which sins would be forgiven and which would not. Christ's death was forgiveness for ALL sins.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Doesn't everything take a conscience intention to sin? If you know that working on the sabbath is a sin, yet you do it, are you not just as guilty of taking an opposition to Christianity and the grace of God?

It just seems by what you're saying that if you know something is a sin, yet you do it, you are not really a Christian at heart. That is fine with me, but it goes against the beliefs of some that even Christians sin. Just seems like an impossible paradox.

Still thinking in human terms. God/Christ does not know consicous v. unconscious sins. What beliefs does this go against?

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

It always amazes me when people who I consider to be smart and logical, show a complete lack of any common sense when it comes to religion.

Oh well, what are you going to do? On your quest to find Christ, did you guys happen to run into Gandalf and Frodo?

No, but if I do, I'll let you know.

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I am a little surprised that the creator of life, the universe, and everything would leave all of this up to the interpretation of humans. How can each group be so sure they've got it right? They cannot all be correct, given that there can be contradictions between them. If this creator cannot be bothered to set the record straight, why would they bother creating heaven? Because, despite all the planets, stars, and galaxies out there, we are the lone entities that this creator truly loves, yet keeps us in the dark about all the details? It just doesn't add up for me.

Free will. At once it is beautiful and a bitch, ain't it?

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Tell that to all the suckers who were born long before Christianity ever reached their shores (or after their own religion had long been established), and are now all burning in eternal hellfire because God relied on some desert herdsmen in an obscure part of the world to spread His word around the globe. Very. Very. Slowly.

Not exactly.

What about people who lived and died before Christ?

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Danny

The bible never addresses this, and my opinion is meaningless as only god knows, but I believe opportunity must be there. if someone never has the opportunity to accept Christ, they will not be judged.

Just seems like a waste though. If that's the case, why would he even bother to send his son to that one obscure spot on the globe, for the benefit of one group of people, while he left all the other peoples scattered around the globe in the dark. But they then get a chance to accept Christ anyway? Seems more logical to have sent several sons all over the globe, and far earlier than he did?

[Danny]

Honesty, I'm not sure, but I'd say where it ended up today seems to have worked out. Just enough for there to be that free will, that choice, that doubt, that need for faith.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Not exactly.

What about people who lived and died before Christ?

Yeah, well, that says the Jews and folks who believed in the OT God are OK. But what about the Buddhists? The Animists? The Ancient Greeks? Egyptians? Etc. etc.

[RainMaker]

I would actually be curious as to why he just messed around for billions of years. The primordial sludge to dinosaurs to apes. Why take such an odd path to reaching the human species? And why mess around for billions of years before getting down to business?

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Yeah, well, that says the Jews and folks who believed in the OT God are OK. But what about the Buddhists? The Animists? The Ancient Greeks? Egyptians? Etc. etc.

Like I said, AFAIK, the bible never directly addresses those who do not have the opportunity or ability to believe. This goes for individuals with certain disabilities, and perhaps someone who seems perfectly normal, but was brought up in just the right circumstances that their mind blocks them from accepting Christ even though their soul might have his love anyway.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Christ didn't pick and choose which sins would be forgiven and which would not. Christ's death was forgiveness for ALL sins.

He sorta does:

"Whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness." -Mark 3:29

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." -Matthew 12:31

[Danny]

I'm off to bed, but I appreciate the manner in which everyone presented their viewpoints .

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Danny

What's the point of life if God appeared in the sky and told us everything? There needs to be choices, doubt, faith.

An interesting question, indeed. Not sure I get the point of life if it is supposed to be spent guessing at what God wants me to do, when God couldn't be bothered to make it obvious. Any human who did such a piss poor job would eventually be fired.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

An interesting question, indeed. Not sure I get the point of life if it is supposed to be spent guessing at what God wants me to do, when God couldn't be bothered to make it obvious. Any human who did such a piss poor job would eventually be fired.

Hmmm. Judging by the company I work for, I'm not so sure.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Free will. At once it is beautiful and a bitch, ain't it?

Sounds more like bullshit. You've got to be one major asshole to do the things attributed to God in the Holy Bible to begin with, but to then say we should all jump through hoops to please "Him" and perhaps be murdered, tortured, raped, or just slowly killed by some terrible disease is going a bit too far.

Hey, don't worry about slowly dying from cancer and having all your life savings drained to pay for that morphine (Thanks for inventing that, God! It helps us get by while suffering from one of those terminal ailments you created to test us with!), you will eventually be off to a much better place once God is through giving you some tough love. Your small child is diagnosed with leukemia at the age of 2? Oh well. God won't bother explaining a damn thing to you, but he decided to make them go through all kinds of treatments, just to finally kill them by the time they are 4. Don't bother asking why God did this. I'm sure some jerk will say that toddler was tainted with original sin and had it coming to them. See, God doesn't believe in innocent until proven guilty. We're all rat bastards from the start, who are supposed to spend our lives hoping to please God just enough to maybe let us go off to Heaven.

Eternal happiness, of course, means never being able to contact those you left behind when you got ran over by a truck on the way to work. You get to be eternally happy about having absolutely no influence on the lives of those you left behind... If they don't jump through the right hoops, supposedly you will be waiting forever for them to show up, but at least you'll be happy about it?

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Yeah, well, that says the Jews and folks who believed in the OT God are OK. But what about the Buddhists? The Animists? The Ancient Greeks? Egyptians? Etc. etc.

Again, why distinguish? Why can't Christ reveal himself in a way to individuals who otherwise would not be able to see them due to cultural differences? What if Christ is more than just a man who lived on Earth 2,000 years ago, but could be our own culture's way of seeing Him?

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I would actually be curious as to why he just messed around for billions of years. The primordial sludge to dinosaurs to apes. Why take such an odd path to reaching the human species? And why mess around for billions of years before getting down to business?

Great things take time. Perhaps part of God's beauty is the scientific way we came about to be.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

He sorta does:

"Whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness." -Mark 3:29

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." -Matthew 12:31

As both Scripture say/indicate, note how "all" blasphmy is included, and only blasphmy against the "Holy Spirit" is singled out.

References to the Holy Ghost as usually coined to as the "Spirit of God." The Spirit of God is usually meant to relate to the connection between Christ's death and being saved (ex: the dove) In essence, to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not to be denying God but be denying the forgiveness that Jesus supposedly granted.

For example, take the mass murderer who suddenly proclaims that he believes in Christ and shall be saved. He is a blasphmer unless he is true in heart (which only God/Christ, beyond our human knowledge) can know. Thus, this person 'cannot' be saved, because there is nothing to be saved. In a way, he has rejected God's forgiveness, no matter how much he pleads that he has not.

Similarly, the infirm who passes away but has never professed a belief in God/Christ can still be saved by the "Holy Spirit" because his true heart matches what the Holy Spirit has granted. Therefore, this person (whom some might seem to think as a "blasphmer" is not really a blasphmer against the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted by Tekneek

An interesting question, indeed. Not sure I get the point of life if it is supposed to be spent guessing at what God wants me to do, when God couldn't be bothered to make it obvious. Any human who did such a piss poor job would eventually be fired.

You're right. We should be fired.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Sounds more like bullshit. You've got to be one major asshole to do the things attributed to God in the Holy Bible to begin with, but to then say we should all jump through hoops to please "Him" and perhaps be murdered, tortured, raped, or just slowly killed by some terrible disease is going a bit too far.

These are tortures/pains related to our human condition. The promise of Christianity/Religion is that there is something more beyond the pain we suffer in this human realm (or theatan level). However, I believe that these pains/horrific realities are part of the choice created by the beauty of free will.

Hey, don't worry about slowly dying from cancer and having all your life savings drained to pay for that morphine (Thanks for inventing that, God! It helps us get by while suffering from one of those terminal ailments you created to test us with!), you will eventually be off to a much better place once God is through giving you some tough love. Your small child is diagnosed with leukemia at the age of 2? Oh well. God won't bother explaining a damn thing to you, but he decided to make them go through all kinds of treatments, just to finally kill them by the time they are 4. Don't bother asking why God did this. I'm sure some jerk will say that toddler was tainted with original sin and had it coming to them. See, God doesn't believe in innocent until proven guilty. We're all rat bastards from the start, who are supposed to spend our lives hoping to please God just enough to maybe let us go off to Heaven.

Well, if God doesn't exist, who are you going to take a number from to sit and wait to complain about these conditions of the human element?

Eternal happiness, of course, means never being able to contact those you left behind when you got ran over by a truck on the way to work. You get to be eternally happy about having absolutely no influence on the lives of those you left behind... If they don't jump through the right hoops, supposedly you will be waiting forever for them to show up, but at least you'll be happy about it?

In your view, they'd be dead and it wouldn't matter anyway. Right?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

You're right. We should be fired.

Good. I didn't expect an admission that humans created God to surface like this, but I accept it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Great things take time. Perhaps part of God's beauty is the scientific way we came about to be.

I thought it took 6 days.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

These are tortures/pains related to our human condition. The promise of Christianity/Religion is that there is something more beyond the pain we suffer in this human realm (or theatan level). However, I believe that these pains/horrific realities are part of the choice created by the beauty of free will.

Free will for your cells to turn on you? Free will to catch a virus that you did nothing wrong to contract? If that is what this is all about, I'm reminded once again why I won't play this silly game.

Well, if God doesn't exist, who are you going to take a number from to sit and wait to complain about these conditions of the human element?

If there is a God, they can kiss my ass. I will go right on to Hell or wherever else this being wants to send me, because I will never forgive them for the evils allowed to exist here. Of course, I find it highly unlikely that I will ever have to worry about any of it since I doubt such a being exists, much less a heaven or hell.

In your view, they'd be dead and it wouldn't matter anyway. Right?

Yep. On the remote chance I am wrong, it's a really horrible way to run things. The only way humans can be "eternally happy" in that situation would be for their memories to be erased. It's not likely that everyone they ever cared about and loved would meet the admission criteria, so if they remembered those who are missing they wouldn't be eternally happy.

[Icy]

I'm the opposite to Tarcone, a person who was raised as Christian, as everybody in Spain, where Christian Catholic religion is an assignature taught since you are 6 years old to the end of high school and that counts for your final grades, but that slowly was lossing the faith to end becoming an atheist a few years ago.

Over all those years i gave religion a lot of thought, had lots of unanswered questions, or better said, all with the same answer, "you must have faith" and ended realizing that the religion i was raised on was not very different from all the other sects. It could have some good ideas, but humans turn those good ideas into ways to become more powerful and to destroy those that do not think like them.

Just read what was made in the name of god both in Spain and South America by my ancestres, not really different from what fanatic muslims or fanatic jews do in the current century.

I have even reached the point of wondering how could i have been that blind for years, and feeling so angry against those persons that tried to wash my brain.

On the other hand, I'm happy for people like Tarcone, that find something in their lives that makes them happy, but at same time i can't avoid to wonder if they have really thought, researched and learned about religion and what it means or should mean for them or if they just "saw the light" and all the sudden they blindy believe in all that is told to them to not risk losing their new found happyness.

Originally Posted by Tekneek

If there is a God, they can kiss my ass. I will go right on to Hell or wherever else this being wants to send me, because I will never forgive them for the evils allowed to exist here. Of course, I find it highly unlikely that I will ever have to worry about any of it since I doubt such a being exists, much less a heaven or hell.

Yep. On the remote chance I am wrong, it's a really horrible way to run things. The only way humans can be "eternally happy" in that situation would be for their memories to be erased. It's not likely that everyone they ever cared about and loved would meet the admission criteria, so if they remembered those who are missing they wouldn't be eternally happy

Exactly my thoughts, if God existed and he thought that killing my recent born baby was a good idea to make me a better person (or what his church tells me that is to be a good person), i would like to tell him that he was totally wrong, and that it was maybe the final step to turn me into a religions/sects hater.

As you said, unless he has the power to erase my memory, i would prefer to burn in hell than to to go to his "heaven", that would prove me that he exists and that he allowed a really loved recent born baby to die in pain, or that allows gottimd's wife to lose a baby, to get pregnant again and then to lose his husband before he had even a chance to know his son. Of course i better don't start to think about wars, ilness, pain, kills in god's name, etc.

If god exists, i can only see him as a terrible "person" playing sim city and having fun building a city and then sending tornadoes to see what will happen, or like a kid that pisses in the ants hole to see them run, a god that enjoys making people's lifes really miserable to end giving them ethernal happiness once they die.

At the end my religion is just to try to create my small heaven here in this life and to invite to it with my acts the people around me to enjoy it too. If a god exists and sends me to go to hell for doing that, i'll happilly go there instead to his brainwashed heaven were everybody is "happy" (i can't avoid to imagine a heaven full of people in drugs feeling so "happy" all the time).

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Icy

I'm the opposite to Tarcone, a person who was raised as Christian, as everybody in Spain, where Christian Catholic religion is an assignature taught since you are 6 years old to the end of high school and that counts for your final grades, but that slowly was lossing the faith to end becoming an atheist a few years ago.

Over all those years i gave religion a lot of thought, had lots of unanswered questions, or better said, all with the same answer, "you must have faith" and ended realizing that the religion i was raised on was not very different from all the other sects. It could have some good ideas, but humans turn those good ideas into ways to become more powerful and to destroy those that do not think like them.

Just read what was made in the name of god both in Spain and South America by my ancestres, not really different from what fanatic muslims or fanatic jews do in the current century.

I have even reached the point of wondering how could i have been that blind for years, and feeling so angry against those persons that tried to wash my brain.

On the other hand, I'm happy for people like Tarcone, that find something in their lives that makes them happy, but at same time i can't avoid to wonder if they have really thought, researched and learned about religion and what it means or should mean for them or if they just "saw the light" and all the sudden they blindy believe in all that is told to them to not risk losing their new found happyness.

+1

Same situation for me, being born and raised as a Roman Catholic like 90% of Filipinos. I'm more of an agnostic now, and pretty open to all sorts of religions and faiths.

[Raiders Army]

Great discussion and I can't help but wondering: Why would God create a set of rules to follow that are contradictory, mis-interpreted, and impossible to follow without sinning...and yet if you sin, you can be forgiven? I mean, the Ten Commandments were pretty much clear cut, eh?

On the other hand, why would man create a set of rules to follow that are contradictory, need to be interpreted, and impossible to follow without sinning...and yet if you sin, man tells you you can be forgiven?

I tend to lean towards man explanation since it comes down to power over the people.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I thought it took 6 days.

Days is a term of comparison. A day in "God's" time might be millions of millions of years.

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Free will for your cells to turn on you? Free will to catch a virus that you did nothing wrong to contract? If that is what this is all about, I'm reminded once again why I won't play this silly game.

If there is a God, they can kiss my ass. I will go right on to Hell or wherever else this being wants to send me, because I will never forgive them for the evils allowed to exist here. Of course, I find it highly unlikely that I will ever have to worry about any of it since I doubt such a being exists, much less a heaven or hell.

Yep. On the remote chance I am wrong, it's a really horrible way to run things. The only way humans can be "eternally happy" in that situation would be for their memories to be erased. It's not likely that everyone they ever cared about and loved would meet the admission criteria, so if they remembered those who are missing they wouldn't be eternally happy.

That's fine. My attempts to respond in this thread were not to try and convert you, but rather to defend what I believe against some hurtful stereotypes that you guys have which are inconsistent with what most Christians truly believe. But I fully understand that what I personally believe is not many (any?) person's cup of tea.

Originally Posted by Icy

On the other hand, I'm happy for people like Tarcone, that find something in their lives that makes them happy, but at same time i can't avoid to wonder if they have really thought, researched and learned about religion and what it means or should mean for them or if they just "saw the light" and all the sudden they blindy believe in all that is told to them to not risk losing their new found happyness.

This is a fair enough point. Personally, I do believe that you should make some attempt to understand the religion that you do or do not follow. I feel like participating in, observing, and learning about other religions has helped shaped my own personal beliefs.

What tarcone has done/is doing has basically gone to extremes. While I believe the "instant" transformation is possible, it's kinda of like crash dieting. If a 400 lb. man instantly cut his calories to 1200 per day, there is a chance that he might stick with it, drop 220 pounds, and stay at that weight for the rest of his life.

However, we also understand that that dude is very likely for a relapse and hasn't really changed at all. Similarly, I myself am critical of those who have "found Jesus", because people who I have come across who prosthelyze about an immediate turnaround often do so without full understanding of Christian faith.

Exactly my thoughts, if God existed and he thought that killing my recent born baby was a good idea to make me a better person (or what his church tells me that is to be a good person), i would like to tell him that he was totally wrong, and that it was maybe the final step to turn me into a religions/sects hater.

As you said, unless he has the power to erase my memory, i would prefer to burn in hell than to to go to his "heaven", that would prove me that he exists and that he allowed a really loved recent born baby to die in pain, or that allows gottimd's wife to lose a baby, to get pregnant again and then to lose his husband before he had even a chance to know his son. Of course i better don't start to think about wars, ilness, pain, kills in god's name, etc.

If god exists, i can only see him as a terrible "person" playing sim city and having fun building a city and then sending tornadoes to see what will happen, or like a kid that pisses in the ants hole to see them run, a god that enjoys making people's lifes really miserable to end giving them ethernal happiness once they die.

At the end my religion is just to try to create my small heaven here in this life and to invite to it with my acts the people around me to enjoy it too. If a god exists and sends me to go to hell for doing that, i'll happilly go there instead to his brainwashed heaven were everybody is "happy" (i can't avoid to imagine a heaven full of people in drugs feeling so "happy" all the time).

I will not even come close of trying to put on your shoes. You have undergone one of the worst things I think someone on Earth could go through, and I would admit that going through a similar trial would cause doubts in what I believe in.

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Great discussion and I can't help but wondering: Why would God create a set of rules to follow that are contradictory, mis-interpreted, and impossible to follow without sinning...and yet if you sin, you can be forgiven? I mean, the Ten Commandments were pretty much clear cut, eh?

On the other hand, why would man create a set of rules to follow that are contradictory, need to be interpreted, and impossible to follow without sinning...and yet if you sin, man tells you you can be forgiven?

I tend to lean towards man explanation since it comes down to power over the people.

Again, as I said above, I don't think these are rules at all. Like life, I think lessons in the Bible exist to be sources of comparison for human individuals. As part of the consequence of free will, there must be knowledge of the good and the bad, the right and the wrong, if only to demonstrate potential consequences for our actions.

[RedKingGold]

Let me ask a question.

Do you guys believe in alien life forms living on another planet in another solar system in this universe? If so, why?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Do you guys believe in alien life forms living on another planet in another solar system in this universe? If so, why?

Believe? Like place blind faith in it? No. Is it possible? Sure it is! The better question is whether "intelligent life" is likely to have evolved on other planets. This requires the planet to be hospitable for life for an extremely long time in order to arrive at the same evolutionary stage that we are part of. We showed up rather late in the game, if you look at it from a high level. Assuming there are planets that have managed to harbor life long enough...

Will we ever even know about them? Hard to say, but it seems a bit unlikely due to the huge distances involved (and therefore time that would have to be spent traveling or transmitting information). Even if we were to receive a single transmission from some other life form on another planet, so much time will have passed that it would be no indication of what life is currently like for them, and we might not even recognize it for what it really is until years later (if ever) as well. These other life forms may very well have given up on ever receiving communication from other places in the universe by the time we get around to a response. Even the closest planets that we know about, outside of our own solar system, are so far away that we aren't likely to ever get there.

Oh...and as for Why? Because the Universe is extremely large. We do not know everything there is to know about it. We know the planets in our solar system aren't the only ones out there. We don't know what is really happening on these distant planets, not to mention just how many might be out there that we do not know about. Going by the probabilities that I have read about, there is a likelihood that there could be life on as many as a few billion planets.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Let me ask a question.

Do you guys believe in alien life forms living on another planet in another solar system in this universe? If so, why?

Yes since it's a matter of probabilities. Just like with the existence of God being improbable, the existence of aliens is probable.

The Drake Equation: Drake equation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Tekneek]

If the fear of being sentenced to "eternal torment" in "Hell" were removed, would people "believe" in the same numbers that they currently do? Is it possible that many people are scared/coerced into "faith" because the alternative they have been taught is so incredibly scary that they are unwilling to risk it? I've read and heard people, over the years, say things like, "It sure beats going to Hell" as a reason that they go to church the 2 or 3 times a year that they bother.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Believe? Like place blind faith in it? No. Is it possible? Sure it is! The better question is whether "intelligent life" is likely to have evolved on other planets. This requires the planet to be hospitable for life for an extremely long time in order to arrive at the same evolutionary stage that we are part of. We showed up rather late in the game, if you look at it from a high level. Assuming there are planets that have managed to harbor life long enough...

Will we ever even know about them? Hard to say, but it seems a bit unlikely due to the huge distances involved (and therefore time that would have to be spent traveling or transmitting information). Even if we were to receive a single transmission from some other life form on another planet, so much time will have passed that it would be no indication of what life is currently like for them, and we might not even recognize it for what it really is until years later (if ever) as well. These other life forms may very well have given up on ever receiving communication from other places in the universe by the time we get around to a response. Even the closest planets that we know about, outside of our own solar system, are so far away that we aren't likely to ever get there.

Oh...and as for Why? Because the Universe is extremely large. We do not know everything there is to know about it. We know the planets in our solar system aren't the only ones out there. We don't know what is really happening on these distant planets, not to mention just how many might be out there that we do not know about. Going by the probabilities that I have read about, there is a likelihood that there could be life on as many as a few billion planets.

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Yes since it's a matter of probabilities. Just like with the existence of God being improbable, the existence of aliens is probable.

The Drake Equation: Drake equation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is what I'm not getting. How can the existence of God be automatically decalared improbable whereas existence of aliens qualifies as probable. Is it because of a lack of scientific formula?

We can debate unlikely vs. likely and levels of probability, but to automatically go "black and white" and instantly conclude that there is no possibility any form or semblance of God exists cannot make sense when religion cannot be inherently proven or disproven (like alien life).

Originally Posted by Tekneek

If the fear of being sentenced to "eternal torment" in "Hell" were removed, would people "believe" in the same numbers that they currently do? Is it possible that many people are scared/coerced into "faith" because the alternative they have been taught is so incredibly scary that they are unwilling to risk it? I've read and heard people, over the years, say things like, "It sure beats going to Hell" as a reason that they go to church the 2 or 3 times a year that they bother.

Hey, as said above. Fear is bad but is also a very powerful motivator and capable of causing human emotion and impact. Heck, "fear" is produced into our brain as self-preservation. Is fear really that negative of an emotion?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Hey, as said above. Fear is bad but is also a very powerful motivator and capable of causing human emotion and impact. Heck, "fear" is produced into our brain as self-preservation. Is fear really that negative of an emotion?

There is a reason that confessions to a crime are often not recognized if you can demonstrate that you were coerced/threatened to give it. Fear is definitely a strong motivator, but not exactly the best way to arrive at the truth.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

We have no basis on which to judge the likelihood of God's existence. We know what kind of conditions led to life here on earth, and can extrapolate that based on the large number of solar systems in the universe, it is likely that another planet with similar enough conditions to our own exists. We can't do this with God, however, because we don't have anything to base any extrapolations on.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

This is what I'm not getting. How can the existence of God be automatically decalared improbable whereas existence of aliens qualifies as probable. Is it because of a lack of scientific formula?

We can debate unlikely vs. likely and levels of probability, but to automatically go "black and white" and instantly conclude that there is no possibility any form or semblance of God exists cannot make sense when religion cannot be inherently proven or disproven (like alien life).

There is certainly the possibility of a semblance of God, but the probability of him being the God people worship is small based upon below...

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

We have no basis on which to judge the likelihood of God's existence. We know what kind of conditions led to life here on earth, and can extrapolate that based on the large number of solar systems in the universe, it is likely that another planet with similar enough conditions to our own exists. We can't do this with God, however, because we don't have anything to base any extrapolations on.

Furthermore, isn't the likelihood of God's existence ultimately based upon faith? If so, then it becomes a circular argument that you believe so he is. Logically, it's a false argument at that point because it's not based on any type of credible proof. The probability (not possibility) becomes small enough to discount at that point.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

There is certainly the possibility of a semblance of God, but the probability of him being the God people worship is small based upon below...

Furthermore, isn't the likelihood of God's existence ultimately based upon faith? If so, then it becomes a circular argument that you believe so he is. Logically, it's a false argument at that point because it's not based on any type of credible proof. The probability (not possibility) becomes small enough to discount at that point.

Depends on your definition of "credible proof". By my own personal measure, that burden has been satisfied by the Bible and by my own perception of the world.

Further, if we're only talking about size of probabilities, by saying that the probability is of God existing is too small to be significant, you yourself have conceded that God existing is not improbable.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

There is a reason that confessions to a crime are often not recognized if you can demonstrate that you were coerced/threatened to give it. Fear is definitely a strong motivator, but not exactly the best way to arrive at the truth.

Again, we're talking about "best v. worst". That varies based on the individual. Part of Christ/God/Religion's message is the ability to try and reach individuals, who vary in terms of how they think and communicate, on a broader scale. Unfortunately, society is proven through our need of punitive treatment that some people need fear to guide their lives.

[DrAFTjunkie]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Let me ask a question.

Do you guys believe in alien life forms living on another planet in another solar system in this universe? If so, why?

I think it's likely just because there are so many planets to begin with. They've just found traces of methane in the atmosphere of Mars, which suggests something is giving it off.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Further, if we're only talking about size of probabilities, by saying that the probability is of God existing is too small to be significant, you yourself have conceded that God existing is not improbable.

There is no basis for discussing the probability of God existing, really, other than the fact that he has left no tangible evidence of his existence. That doesn't prove he doesn't exist, but neither does it do anything to convince anyone that he does.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Depends on your definition of "credible proof". By my own personal measure, that burden has been satisfied by the Bible and by my own perception of the world.

And so is my belief in Hobbits, based on The Lord of the Rings. The existence of something should be determined by more than a book claiming it to be so, shouldn't it? What evidence is there, beyond this book, that "proves" the existence of God?

[Danny]

It's about faith. So what if there being a God is improbable. You realize all of the tons of improbable things that had to happen for any of us to be here on a text sim message board discussing this? Fact is, while we all believe we know for sure, none of us actually know for sure.

[Northwood_DK]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Further, if we're only talking about size of probabilities, by saying that the probability is of God existing is too small to be significant, you yourself have conceded that God existing is not improbable.

And now we are back to the augment about the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Danny

It's about faith. So what if there being a God is improbable. You realize all of the tons of improbable things that had to happen for any of us to be here on a text sim message board discussing this? Fact is, while we all believe we know for sure, none of us actually know for sure.

But we were talking about probability. It takes more than "faith" for there to be a probability that something exists. I can "believe" that I have a great chance at winning the Lottery, but that doesn't mean I actually do.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Northwood_DK

And now we are back to the augment about the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

I think the bigger question is, if it's invisible, why do people care so much if it doesn't exist.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

But we were talking about probability. It takes more than "faith" for there to be a probability that something exists. I can "believe" that I have a great chance at winning the Lottery, but that doesn't mean I actually do.

Do you stomp your feet and shout at the sky if you don't win the lottery?

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

And so is my belief in Hobbits, based on The Lord of the Rings. The existence of something should be determined by more than a book claiming it to be so, shouldn't it? What evidence is there, beyond this book, that "proves" the existence of God?

Life itself.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

If I get a Christmas gift, and have no idea who got it for me, that means Santa exists.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

If I get a Christmas gift, and have no idea who got it for me, that means Santa exists.

Hey, if you believe or don't believe in religion/God/unicorns/Santa, etc. that's your choice. Why harp and put down people who do? Simply because that belief is illogical?

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Because those who believe in Santa keep trying to Santa-fy my country.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Because those who believe in Santa keep trying to Santa-fy my country.

So, let's paint all those who believe in Santa with a broad brush and say they all must be eliminated or what they believe must be eradicated?

A Holocaust on Santa, post haste!

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Excuse me?

[RedKingGold]

It's like the knife-maker being sued because someone used a knife to stab someone. Are knives potentially dangerous weapons used to maim, kill, threaten? Of course. However, they are also tools of utility.

Similarly, religion can bring about negative effects based on individuals who use it to serve their own goals. But that, in and of itself, does not make religion evil. Those who are religious may receive positive benefits in their lives that might not be achieved without it.

Point being, there is no reason to criticize people for believing in something that does not exist unless it has some impact on you. I argue that religion only impact nonreligious people when individuals use religion to serve their own individual goals. This wrong is caused by the individual, not the religion itself. "Guns don't kill people, I kill people, etc. etc."

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

That's fine. I hope your religion makes you as fulfilled as possible.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

That's fine. I hope your religion makes you as fulfilled as possible.

Duly noted.