2007 NFL Week 2 Thread

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by molson

I just can't imagine the Pats would involve individual players in the cheating (like putting mics on defensive players). That's something that would pretty easily get out, with the roster turnover in the NFL.

If that happened, they deserve whatever they get.

Agreed. But at least right now to this (admittedly biased) person like..

"Hey.. That's not a harsh enough penalty! Um.. (thinks) They also spit in your coffee cup!"

Coming out with further allegations a week later is pretty weaksauce.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

I didn't like that Kraft interview... and I didn't like the Pats' fan sign that said something like "Smile, LT, you're on candid camera!" I bet they wouldn't be so jokey if they lost their coach for a few games.

I'm sorry that we're not wearing sackcloth and flagellating ourselves.

And what didn't you like about Kraft's interview?

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Agreed. But at least right now to this (admittedly biased) person like..

"Hey.. That's not a harsh enough penalty! Um.. (thinks) They also spit in your coffee cup!"

Coming out with further allegations a week later is pretty weaksauce.

I thought I heard about the defensive players being mic'd from a post here on the board last Monday?? I know I brought it up to a Pats fan this past Monday, so I should have heard the allegations somewhere.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I'm sorry that we're not wearing sackcloth and flagellating ourselves.

And what didn't you like about Kraft's interview?

Fans don't have to be jokey about being caught cheating. They should be ashamed, not making fun of the situation.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Fans don't have to be jokey about being caught cheating. They should be ashamed, not making fun of the situation.

Defense mechanism.

[MikeVic]

Did everyone just see that Mitsubishi commercial?? What the hell. So they're kidnapping athletes and tapping into their fluids to make their cars? That doesn't make me wanna buy their cars.

[molson]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Fans don't have to be jokey about being caught cheating. They should be ashamed, not making fun of the situation.

There's quite a few people in that stadium. The "ashamed" people don't make for as good tv cuts.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Fans don't have to be jokey about being caught cheating. They should be ashamed, not making fun of the situation.

They must have not received your memo.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Fans don't have to be jokey about being caught cheating. They should be ashamed, not making fun of the situation.

Free hint chuckles, fans weren't the one caught cheating. If Belichick made camera motions at the real camera, then you'd have a reason to bitch and snivel. Since it's not Belichick, but the fans (who are entitled to a sense of gallows humor), I'd say you're acting like a whiny lil bitch isntead.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Fans don't have to be jokey about being caught cheating. They should be ashamed, not making fun of the situation.

I would imagine most fans wouldn't care as long as their team wins

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

They should be ashamed, not making fun of the situation.

FTR, I don't even like the Patriots, but it'd be a lot easier for me to get worked up over the whole situation if I believed even for a second that every other team in the league didn't do a lot of the same stuff.

I give the Pats a whack on the head for being arrogant about it & not bothering to hide it very well, but beyond that I'm just having a tough time really giving a big damn. And that's coming from someone who could be fairly described as pretty authoritarian in nature I think and as somebody who doesn't like New England. So imagine how little the average fan of them cares about this.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Logan

Defense mechanism.

Yeah, that's true. But like, I understand it more of a defense mechanism if they're confronted about it. If I approach a Pats fan and bring it up, then them making fun of it is more expected than some fans making a sign at a game about it.

Oh, and about the Kraft interview... I don't remember everything he said, but I just didn't like the feel of it. I can't explain it.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

FTR, I don't even like the Patriots, but it'd be a lot easier for me to get worked up over the whole situation if I believed even for a second that every other team in the league didn't do a lot of the same stuff.

I give the Pats a whack on the head for being arrogant about it & not bothering to hide it very well, but beyond that I'm just having a tough time really giving a big damn. And that's coming from someone who could be fairly described as pretty authoritarian in nature I think and as somebody who doesn't like New England. So imagine how little the average fan of them cares about this.

What he said. We probably think it's STUPIDER then you guys do, because we believe this team is good enough that we don't have to blatantly defy a new, strict commissioner to gather info. But we can't go around moping 24/7 about how a usually smart coach got an attack of the dumbs.. so we make fun of it.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

if I believed even for a second that every other team in the league didn't do a lot of the same stuff.

To me, the single most amazing thing about this controversy is how so many people are willing to pretend that's not true.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Oh, and about the Kraft interview... I don't remember everything he said, but I just didn't like the feel of it. I can't explain it.

He unprovokingly said "I had no idea it was going on" a few too many times for my liking.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

To me, the single most amazing thing about this controversy is how so many people are willing to pretend that's not true.

I don't think many teams video taped their opponents in week1 after being warned (and I'm SURE no one did this week), but yeah, there's so many quotes out there about other teams cracking the defensive signals, and one advance scout doing a full report on the entire game about signals.. it's part of the game.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Logan

He unprovokingly said "I had no idea it was going on" a few too many times for my liking.

I'm sure he's a little freaked out there will be something worse that comes to light soon.

But I highly doubt he knew anything. There's just no reason for him to.

[watravaler]

Devin Hester could have very easily had 4 KR/PR TD's today. He got the one, 2nd called back, and two other 40+ returns. After Urlacher/Harris/Briggs, I don't think the Bears have a player more important than Hester.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Free hint chuckles, fans weren't the one caught cheating. If Belichick made camera motions at the real camera, then you'd have a reason to bitch and snivel. Since it's not Belichick, but the fans (who are entitled to a sense of gallows humor), I'd say you're acting like a whiny lil bitch isntead.

Hey, it's my opinion. Something about the recent surge of cheating being caught in sports has pushed my buttons. Yeah, I'm sure it's been going on for decades. But it seems like all we hear now is performance enhancing, cheating, etc. It's really pissing me off as a sports fan, and the more it gets brought up in sports I love, the more bitter about it I become.

I respected the hell out of the Pats before all this, and used them as an example of why football is so great. You have all this league parity, but yet you can still have the closest thing there is nowadays in any sport to an elite dynasty.

Expressing my opinion isn't being a whiny little bitch.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I don't think many teams video taped their opponents in week1 after being warned (and I'm SURE no one did this week)

I'd bet you're underestimating how easy it is to be discreet with a camera.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm sure he's a little freaked out there will be something worse that comes to light soon.

But I highly doubt he knew anything. There's just no reason for him to.

Not that you're necessarily implying it, but I wasn't suggesting that at all. More of a "Yeah Bob, we get it...no one cares enough about what the owner of a team does or doesn't know."

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I don't think many teams video taped their opponents in week1 after being warned (and I'm SURE no one did this week), but yeah, there's so many quotes out there about other teams cracking the defensive signals, and one advance scout doing a full report on the entire game about signals.. it's part of the game.

On the contrary, I think probably every team was using video technology illegally this week. Including the Pats. I have a video camera in my cell phone! You're telling me they can't find places to hide cameras on the sidelines?

[Karlifornia]

I'm not waiting for ESPN for highlights of tonight's game...I'm just gonna call Coach Belichick.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

On the contrary, I think probably every team was using video technology illegally this week. Including the Pats. I have a video camera in my cell phone! You're telling me they can't find places to hide cameras on the sidelines?

Yes, but not with what just happened, the penalties if you get caught and you have to aim it at the coaches.. with 65,000 people watching.

They'll just use the endzone and 30 yard line cameras that they showed on TV

[Karlifornia]

Oh, and whose dick do I have to suck to get some decent highlights of today's action? ESPNEWS showed exactly one play each from every game, Sunday Night Halftime showed only play each from a whopping three games, Sportscenter lead off with the game I just saw in it's entirety, and then went straight to Belichick's press conference. I understand Belichick is involved in THE hot-button story of the week....but dear lord. Oh, and I'm among the NFL Network-less masses.

Frustrating.

EDIT: I miss NFL Primetime

[ISiddiqui]

I think after midnight, ESPN can show highlights? They have "The Blitz", I think, in the 12 AM Sportscenter.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Oh, and whose dick do I have to suck to get some decent highlights of today's action? ESPNEWS showed exactly one play each from every game, Sunday Night Halftime showed only play each from a whopping three games, Sportscenter lead off with the game I just saw in it's entirety, and then went straight to Belichick's press conference. I understand Belichick is involved in THE hot-button story of the week....but dear lord. Oh, and I'm among the NFL Network-less masses.

Frustrating.

EDIT: I miss NFL Primetime

I'm still trying to figure this out too - it's 2007 and I have like 80 channels, there's gotta be a damn place to get decent NFL highlights.

Though if the choice is highlights or sucking dick, I'll find that the highlights available to me are more than adequate.

[SirFozzie]

How about NFL Network?

[molson]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

How about NFL Network?

I don't have that, unfortunately.

Though right now, I'm watching Berman/TJ do basically the Primetime show on Sportscenter. I'm sure it's a little shorter that the real thing, but it's better than anything else I've seen.

[CU Tiger]

As someone who spent close to 10 years doing commercial electronic security and surveilance design and consulting, Id say the average American is clueless how may different places they are recorded each day and how small and effective remote PTZ cameras have become.

In fact, I wouldnt find it hard to believe that every NFL team doesnt have cameras in both locker rooms, in coaches boxes, as well as access areas.

I KNOW some have all of the above.

[SFL Cat]

Yeah, the Patriots showed how much they relied on intercepting those signals with the way they dismantled the Chargers defense last night.

Seriously, I've heard a lot of interviews the past week from former NFL QBs, and all of them, to varying degrees, said that trying to crack signals from the other team was NOT an uncommon practice.

Personally, I think it would be much more disruptive to crack a team's offensive signals. After all, the defense responds to what packages the offense puts on the field and base their calls on what they think the offense is going to do with those packages.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Yeah, the Patriots showed how much they relied on intercepting those signals with the way they dismantled the Chargers defense last night.

Seriously, I've heard a lot of interviews the past week from former NFL QBs, and all of them, to varying degrees, said that trying to crack signals from the other team was NOT an uncommon practice.

Personally, I think it would be much more disruptive to crack a team's offensive signals. After all, the defense responds to what packages the offense puts on the field and base their calls on what they think the offense is going to do with those packages.

I still don't understand why it matters if they were successful at cracking the signals or not. To me, that is a completely separate issue than the initial decision to cheat and has no effect on whether or not that decision was right or wrong.

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I still don't understand why it matters if they were successful at cracking the signals or not. To me, that is a completely separate issue than the initial decision to cheat and has no effect on whether or not that decision was right or wrong.

There's a couple of different layers to this-

1. The decision to cheat. Regardless of how much they benefited, there was a clear violation of the rules, and the punishment was deserved, and justified. Nobody disagrees with this.

2. Whether we should look at the Pats' past success differently. Whether, as one article that was posted in the other thread stated, Brady shouldn't be considered for the Hall of fame unless he leaves the Pats and wins championships with another team.

A lot of people are stating things about #2, and how silly that point is. Don't mistake that for them saying ANYTHING about #1, because they're not. When someone downplays the significance of this issue, and brings up the fact that "everyone was doing it" (at least prior to this season), they're referring to point #2, not #1.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by molson

There's a couple of different layers to this-

1. The decision to cheat. Regardless of how much they benefited, there was a clear violation of the rules, and the punishment was deserved, and justified. Nobody disagrees with this.

2. Whether we should look at the Pats' past success differently. Whether, as one article that was posted in the other thread stated, Brady shouldn't be considered for the Hall of fame unless he leaves the Pats and wins championships with another team.

A lot of people are stating things about #2, and how silly that point is. Don't mistake that for them saying ANYTHING about #1, because they're not. When someone downplays the significance of this issue, and brings up the fact that "everyone was doing it" (at least prior to this season), they're referring to point #2, not #1.

And for me, as usual, i think the reality of #2 falls somewhere between what most Pats fans are saying and what most Talking Heads/others are saying. They probably benefited in various situations, games, etc and maybe even picked up an extra win or so in a given season. But it's not like they went 12-4 in a season where they should have gone 4-12.

[SirFozzie]

BTW, they showed the tape on our local news. So that's what the hubub was about? Pan to four coaches giving signals, waving frantically (3 fake, 1 real, apparently). Pan to scoreboard to get down and distance info. Pan to coaches, pan back to scoreboard.

[TroyF]

1) I've thought from day 1 and said so that the multiple radio frequency thing was the most bothersome to me. If it's proven, the Pats should be HAMMERED. As should any other team. What Goodall did to them for the videotaping should seem minor compared to what they get for multiple radio frequencies.

2) People are really focusing on the wrong thing with last nights game. Yeah, the Pats look good. Their offense looks dominant. The D has been good. But that's not the story. The story is the San Diego offense. This is a team that scored under 20 points one time last year. Once. It was in week 3 when Marty still didn't trust Rivers. They've now scored under 20 in two straight games. And they've looked horrible in doing it. They look horrible. It doesn't shock me that the Pats scored a lot against SD. I'm stunned at how inept the Chargers offense looked against a team missing their two best defensive players. If the Chargers had a brain, they'd fire Norv now (or move him to where he belongs as OC) and bring in a real head coach before their season implodes.

3) Everyone is crowing the Pats a little quickly. They have dominated to start, but it's a long, long season. All it takes is one Brady knee injury and Vinnie to come out for it to fall apart. They stay healthy, they'll be tough. But week 2 is a little early to crown someone champions like a lot of people are doing. They also have some brutal stretches this season. I'm not saying they won't do it, I'm saying that I'm sick of everyone acting as though the title is a forgone conclusion and 16-0 is within reach when we are talking about a 2-0 team. The AFC East? OK, I'll agree, they've clinched already.

[Galaril]

Great win for the Pats. Congrats to all the Pats fans on the board. I have been hard on the Pats in the past mostly because of Pats fans that were overly arrogant but, I think that they were the target of a witch hunt. So, I was kind of glad the Pats answered the critics.

[RedKingGold]

Yeah, I'm getting pretty tired of this Patriots-cheating thing already (and I'm not a Patriots fan).

However, Ookie must be pleased about all this attention being paid to something other than him.

[molson]

Originally Posted by wade moore

And for me, as usual, i think the reality of #2 falls somewhere between what most Pats fans are saying and what most Talking Heads/others are saying.

The only opinion I'm putting any stock in is ex-coaches who aren't going back to the NFL. Those are the only people really qualified, and unbiased enough to shed any light on what kind of an advantage this really is.

Guys like John Madden and Jimmy Johnson, for example, have both put this in the category of "little things many coaches do to gain every edge possible".

Since I'm Patriots fan, I'm sure you'll just think I'm looking for that opinion, but believe me, I was/still am curious about the impact this had on everything. For purposes of football discussions with my friends, I need to know whether this is something I can defend the limited impact of with a straight face, or in the alternative, if I should just give up and go the "you wish your coach was smart enough to cheat" route.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by molson

There's a couple of different layers to this-

1. The decision to cheat. Regardless of how much they benefited, there was a clear violation of the rules, and the punishment was deserved, and justified. Nobody disagrees with this.

2. Whether we should look at the Pats' past success differently. Whether, as one article that was posted in the other thread stated, Brady shouldn't be considered for the Hall of fame unless he leaves the Pats and wins championships with another team.

A lot of people are stating things about #2, and how silly that point is. Don't mistake that for them saying ANYTHING about #1, because they're not. When someone downplays the significance of this issue, and brings up the fact that "everyone was doing it" (at least prior to this season), they're referring to point #2, not #1.

I think you might be right to some extent, but definitely in that initial thread and even since then, I think there are still quite a few Pats fans that think it is a defense against #1.

It's an argument that particularly irks me because it's also used to defend steroid users.

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I think you might be right to some extent, but definitely in that initial thread and even since then, I think there are still quite a few Pats fans that think it is a defense against #1.

I don't think anyone around here has said they shouldn't be punished. I'm sure there's a few crazies around that would say otherwise, but they are in the EXTREME minority.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

One thing that keeps coming up in my mind is that, if the Pats had lost, or God forbid lost badly, then there would have been a torrent of posts saying about how important that cheating was to them and how they needed it to win.

Seeing as the opposite happened, where are the posters coming out to say that maybe they were wrong in talking about what a massive effect the videotaping of signals, must, just must have had for the Pats?

Yeah, but that doesn't work well for you guys, either. I mean, if it had very little effect as many Pats fans are trying to claim, then you guys just shitted away a 1st round draft pick for no reason, didn't you?

[TroyF]

I think all of the talk of how it pertains to the Patriots dynasty is stupid. Do I think it had an impact? Yes, I think it did. And it was most certainly wrong.

But what can be done about it even if it had a HUGE impact? Nothing. It sucks for the teams it happened to, but it's not like we can go back and take titles away. And we'll never know the true impact it had. My guess is it had a lot bigger of one than a lot of people think. Why else would Belichick intentionally skirt the rules? (I'm sorry, I'm not buying his "interpretation" story)

Brady is still a hall of famer. Beli is as well. (though he goes into the jack ass section along with Al Davis) The Patriots are still a dynasty and they are still going to be crowned team of the decade. The biggest impact this has is that it puts Belichick in a horrible light. He's used to that by now anyway, so it's not like it matters.

Were I in your shoes, molson, I wouldn't even try to defend this in any way. Simply say that it sucks my team cheated like that and I wish they hadn't of done it or say I'm happy my team cheats and I don't give a damn. Neither you or your debating partner will ever know the real answer and your opinions won't be changed anyway. Say your peice and move on.

[larrymcg421]

By the way, I'm not saying I think it had a huge effect. I don't want any of my arguments in this thread interpreted that way. I have absolutely no clue (and really no one here does on either side) how much effect it had. I'm simply debating the logic of some of the arguments.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by molson

The only opinion I'm putting any stock in is ex-coaches who aren't going back to the NFL. Those are the only people really qualified, and unbiased enough to shed any light on what kind of an advantage this really is.

Guys like John Madden and Jimmy Johnson, for example, have both put this in the category of "little things many coaches do to gain every edge possible".

Since I'm Patriots fan, I'm sure you'll just think I'm looking for that opinion, but believe me, I was/still am curious about the impact this had on everything. For purposes of football discussions with my friends, I need to know whether this is something I can defend the limited impact of with a straight face, or in the alternative, if I should just give up and go the "you wish your coach was smart enough to cheat" route.

Keep in mind when I say it may have given them 1 or 2 wins I think that in the NFL these days that falling on the right side of lucky breaks (read: Bad calls on the other team) can give you an extra win or two. I think there's a very small margin of error between say 11-5 and 7-9 in many instances... something like this, when applied by a good coaching staff, can put you over the hump in a game or two.

[molson]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Keep in mind when I say it may have given them 1 or 2 wins I think that in the NFL these days that falling on the right side of lucky breaks (read: Bad calls on the other team) can give you an extra win or two. I think there's a very small margin of error between say 11-5 and 7-9 in many instances... something like this, when applied by a good coaching staff, can put you over the hump in a game or two.

Sure, that's true. Peformance-enhancing drug use by players could also give a team that kind of bump. Or skirting salary cap rules. Or by using players that should have been suspended because of their criminal activities. And a ton of other things we probably don't even know about.

It's unfortunate that no league can ever operate in a moral vacum, but no league can, and no league ever has. The best a league can to is try to limit transgressions as much as possible, which is what the NFL is doing here.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by molson

Sure, that's true. Peformance-enhancing drug use by players could also give a team that kind of bump. Or skirting salary cap rules. Or by using players that should have been suspended because of their criminal activities. And a ton of other things we probably don't even know about.

It's unfortunate that no league can ever operate in a moral vacum, but no league can, and no league ever has. The best a league can to is try to limit transgressions as much as possible, which is what the NFL is doing here.

Yup. I think you and I are on the same page here.

I admit, at first I had a bit of moral outrage. Me being an Indy fan was probably part of it.

The more I have let it stew the more I come down on the fact that the Pats cheated, they were punished in a reasonable way (you can argue going up or down a bit, but to me it was in the ballpark), and a message was sent. All was a appropriate. For the impact on their "legacy" - for me it is minimal. I have a hard time believing, now that my initial reaction is gone, that this had a significant impact. It had an impact for sure - and hell, could have even won them a playoff game. But as a hear more and more - they still had to make the plays, make the throws, catch the ball, throw the blocks, etc.

Now - I do agree with Troy that IF it is proven that there was more shenanigans going on involving micing defenders, jamming headsets, giving radios to defenders, etc that we're in an entirely different ballpark. However, I have not heard of any compelling evidence about that behavior.

[rkmsuf]

38-14

Suck it non-cheaters.

[gstelmack]

Look, if the media can put guys in front of the camera calling for the 3 Super Bowl Rings, I can laugh at a sign that says:

New England: Dominating the NFL Fair and Square, and We Have the Tapes to Prove It!

[larrymcg421]

I was thinking of trying out as a DB for the Bengals or Browns. I'm 6'1", 205, and run about a 5.5 40. What do you think?

Or I could try out as Dolphins QB. I can't throw, but that doesn't seem to be a requirement.