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View Poll Results: Predict your finals matchup | |||
Heat vs Lakers | 22 | 46.81% | |
Heat vs Thunder | 12 | 25.53% | |
Heat vs Spurs | 3 | 6.38% | |
Celtics vs Lakers | 3 | 6.38% | |
Celtics vs Thunder | 2 | 4.26% | |
Celtics vs Spurs | 0 | 0% | |
Comedy Pacers vs Grizzlies option(Stern says no) | 3 | 6.38% | |
Other(please list) | 2 | 4.26% | |
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll |
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Thread Tools |
01-02-2013, 03:14 PM | #451 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
I know, I'm old. Ancient. But I still believe a superstar should get the title because, oh, he's actually one of the best players in the league. Look, Serge Ibaka isn't the best player on his own team. He's as good or better than Blake Griffin. He's not a superstar. So if you define superstar by marketing efforts, great, Griffin is a big time stud. If you define it by actually being a great NBA player, he isn't. The Clippers are going to be paying him 14-17 million a year after this season. He simply is not worth that kind of money. If he doesn't make a massive jump from where he is right now, he's going to destroy that team by the time he's done. |
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01-02-2013, 03:45 PM | #452 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Land O Lakes FL
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Quote:
If NBA executives paid players based on them actually being a great NBA player, we would not have had a lockout last year and not have to deal with the next lockout in 2021.
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"The blind soldier fought for me in this war. The least I can do now is fight for him. I have eyes. He hasn’t. I have a voice on the radio, he hasn’t. I was born a white man. And until a colored man is a full citizen, like me, I haven’t the leisure to enjoy the freedom that colored man risked his life to maintain for me. I don’t own what I have until he owns an equal share of it. Until somebody beats me and blinds me, I am in his debt."- Orson Welles August 11, 1946 |
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01-02-2013, 04:09 PM | #453 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Quote:
I've never been a Jazz fan, but I always loved watching them play in the Sloan days. Sloan got the best out of his players and, similar to what Pop does in San Antonio, put guys in a position to succeed based on their skillsets. He definitely got the best out of Deron, who was my top NBA PG at the time. After what went down in Utah I would never cheer for Deron again, and he's now shown that his production was at least 10-15% Sloan.
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01-02-2013, 04:58 PM | #454 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Nov 2003
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I wonder how long it takes Brooklyn to lose interest in a Nets team that looks like it will be an absolute train wreck within the next couple of years
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01-02-2013, 05:34 PM | #455 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
He's worth that money. Veterans are almost always going to be overpaid because of how the CBA is setup, and those on rookie deals will be underpaid. Put it this way, could the Clippers replace Blake Griffin in the free agent market with that money? My guess is no. Maybe they could build a better bench, but you can only play 5 guys. Those guys who are good or better are incredibly valuable and difficult to find in the FA market. It's not so much looking at the player, their numbers, and their salary. It's figuring out whether that money can be spent better elsewhere. I don't think they can get close to bringing in a player of his caliber. Last edited by RainMaker : 01-02-2013 at 05:35 PM. |
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01-02-2013, 06:02 PM | #456 |
High School Varsity
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Whats wrong with taking the marketing into account a bit? Theyre almost certainly making more money by having Blake Griffin than by having a statistically equivalent player who they cant market as well.
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01-02-2013, 06:17 PM | #457 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Puyallup, WA
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Tim Tebow = Superstar
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01-02-2013, 06:28 PM | #458 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: the yo'
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Griffin getting superstar calls from the refs basically makes him a star I guess.
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01-02-2013, 07:13 PM | #459 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
Look, I get how the economics of the game work. I also understand his "superstar" status gives the Clippers calls. He slapped Andre Miller across the face last night when he had five fouls and the refs let it go. (the Nuggets actually dominated inside the paint last night and were somehow called for 8 more fouls than the Clippers were) I also get last year he was in the top 10 in scoring and rebounding. But his per 48 numbers in scoring and rebounding are moving in the wrong direction. (down every year of his career) He has 13 double doubles this year, Faried has 14 against a tougher slate of opponents. Griffin is a good passing big man as well. A 15 million dollar a year player though? Okily dokily. So the Clippers are going to give a crapload of money to Paul after this year (and his knees might both be gone by the time I finish this sentence) and have Griffin as the second option? Better win it this year boys, your window is SHORT. |
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01-02-2013, 07:20 PM | #460 | |
Dark Cloud
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Quote:
The fact they got that arena built where they did means that even if they're terrible, they'll still be far better than the team would've been had they stayed irrelevant in Jersey even in Newark (versus the Meadowlands) and so it won't matter. Absolutely worst case, it's a cheaper ticket to see NBA basketball in NYC without having to travel to Jersey. |
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01-02-2013, 07:36 PM | #461 |
Head Coach
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Location: Whittier
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01-02-2013, 08:08 PM | #462 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: TX
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01-02-2013, 09:03 PM | #463 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: NYC
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Quote:
We had this discussion re: Harden. The salary structure in the NBA is a mess. Take a look at some of the players that are being paid $10 million to $12 million. It's really hard to justify Griffin not being worth what he's paid in comparison. |
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01-02-2013, 09:16 PM | #464 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
I don't get the hate for Griffin. He's been one of the most efficient power forwards in the league the last couple years. He's 23 years old. You're griping over an incredibly small drop in some numbers. A drop that still leaves him as one of the best PFs in the game. Like I said, what exactly do you think they should do with that money instead? |
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01-02-2013, 09:26 PM | #465 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Is Austin Rivers the worst starter in the NBA right now? Without looking at a gamelog, he seems to have more 0-whatever shooting games than any starter I can recall. 1-5 FG today and 1-6 FTs. Sheesh.
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01-02-2013, 10:20 PM | #466 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
No, it really doesn't. That's where the problem is. At the moment, even using conventional numbers, it's really tough to list him as an all star in his own conference, much less "one of the top PF in the game" YMMV, but I would list Duncan, Lee, Love, Randolph and Ibaka ahead of his right now. Faried is better in advanced stats, but if you want to call Griffin better because he shoots a little more, I'm ok with that one. The Unibrow isn't far off his numbers and he can make free throws. We go to the East and we have Varejao, Noah, Bosh, and Horford. I haven't even counted Cousins, Milsap, Pau or Aldredge. Griffin is not a very good defensive player despite his explosiveness. (the Clippers are 10 points better when he's off the court than on it for defense) So to say he's one of the top PF's in the game, it had better be by his offensive game. This isn't me hating, it's me wondering how he's considered such a wonderful player with a consistent decline in statistics (conventional and advanced) It is me wondering how he has now regressed to the point I would question him being even an all star in his own conference. If you want to view those questions as hate, I can deal with it. |
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01-02-2013, 10:24 PM | #467 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
There was an article last week on ESPN that said he is having the worst season of all time. According to Kevin Pelton (founder of WARP), Rivers projects to 7 wins worse than a replacement player this year. Worse than anyone in the 34 years he has in his database. The second and third worst seasons in his database were Jason Collins and Adam Morrison, both in the '06-07' seasons. |
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01-02-2013, 10:39 PM | #468 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Nov 2003
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The thought that anyone could be a worse NBA player than Adam Morrison is terrifying, maybe the Mayans were just a couple months off after all
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01-02-2013, 10:44 PM | #469 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Quote:
Yowzers... so, somehow, he's even worse than I guessed! One of the first games of the season I remember seeing him have a 2 minute stretch where I honestly felt it looked like what would happen if I went out on an NBA court and tried to play with the pros. I don't think you could say the jury is out on him as an NBA player given his age and supposed potential, but certainly he belongs in the NBDL right now while the Hornets gauge Xavier Henry and Brian Roberts.
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Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce |
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01-02-2013, 10:54 PM | #470 | ||
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
Advanced stats? Griffin is 2nd in the NBA in PER among PFs. Was 2nd last year as well. He's 2nd in win shares. He's a very efficient scorer (TS%) and a pretty good defensive rebounder. What advanced stats are you using here? And if we take away the Centers you have listed (Noah, Varejao, Horford) and give you all the other names you have listed, he's still in the top 6-7 of all power forwards. Still only 23 years old. Quote:
He's not a good defender, but he's not as bad as you claim. The Clippers are better defensively because their bench is incredibly good defensively. The on/off stats are misleading when it comes to that. For instance the Bulls were 8 points better defensively last year when Noah was on the bench. Doesn't make him a bad defender, just meant they had a bench that was amazing defensively that played against other 2nd units. Griffin is part of the team's best 5-man units defensively. Looking at the numbers it seems Green and Butler are the one's dragging them down on that end of the court. They are much better defensively with Crawford and/or Barnes. But again, how are you going to spend that money better than Griffin? That's the big question. The going rate for guys like Iliasova and Taj Gibson are nearly $10 million a year. Brook Lopez got a max contract. So what is a better way to spend that money? Last edited by RainMaker : 01-02-2013 at 10:55 PM. |
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01-02-2013, 11:07 PM | #471 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Parañaque, Philippines
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Roy Hibbert has a max contract.
Blake Griffin deserves it, on marketability alone.
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Come and see. |
01-02-2013, 11:35 PM | #472 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
I listed 15 players who were either better than, even with or damned close to Blake Griffin. Take away 3 and it still only puts him in the top third of NBA PF's. I can't argue with the max contract. You have to do it to keep Paul. You have to do it because someone else will pay him. You have to do it because of his popularity. That's like me saying he wouldn't be an all star in his own conference if merit based play was part of the equation. Of course he'll be an all star. Even if he wasn't voted in by the fans, he would be one because of his rep. The question is, is he worth it? You keep bringing up age and I'm ok with that. But it's not like all the players I listed are ancient. Ibaka and Faried are 23. (and both are over 6 months younger than Griffin who turns 24 in a few months) Love is 24 (about 8 months older than Griffin). Unibrow is 19. If I had a team that was a power forward away from winning a title this year, I'd take Ibaka and Love over Griffin right now. (and if I were allowed to actually use guys over the age of 23, I'd take another 4 or 5 guys in the western conference alone. So no, he will get it, just like he will get his all star berth, but I'm not seeing it with what I watch. FWIW, he's having a horrific game against one of the guys I have mentioned tonight. After three quarters, the Warriors are beating the Clippers by 20. Griffin has 8 points, 6 board and an assist in 31 minutes. Lee has 18 points, 11 boards, 5 assists in 34 minutes. I'm not watching the game, but something must have happened to Jordan. He played 16 minutes and left without getting thrown out or in foul trouble. I think the Clippers could afford to lose Blake more than they could Deandre. Personal opinion from a hater |
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01-02-2013, 11:54 PM | #473 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Morgan Hill, CA
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W's taking it to the Clippers tonight.
This team is not showing any signs of slowing down.
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Fan of SF Giants, 49ers, Sharks, Arsenal |
01-02-2013, 11:58 PM | #474 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Quote:
You listed 15 guys of whom 4 or 5 aren't PF as their primary position, and at least a couple that remain are ridiculous (Milsap? The corpse of Pau Gasol?) And you've neatly sidestepped telling us which advanced stats you're using, because like Rainmaker pretty much every one I've found puts Griffin firmly in the top 5 and ahead of most of the guys you've named, including light years ahead of Fareid. |
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01-03-2013, 12:18 AM | #475 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
4-5 of them were Centers. A bunch of others are not even close to Griffin (Ibaka, Milsap, Faried, Gasol). It's also odd you talk about his lack of defense and then list David Lee who is considerably worse in that aspect. Or a minor fallback statistically this season when Kevin Love has been terrible for the Wolves. You claim statistics show he's not that good, so lets hear them. And Deandre Jordan is better? This is the guy who was getting benched for Reggie Evans in the playoffs. |
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01-03-2013, 12:50 AM | #476 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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The NBA Geek - Advanced NBA Statistics for all players
Wages of wins, best set of stats there is for my money. He is behind Duncan, Faried, Ibaka, Lee, and Randolph in the west. (Do all those pass the test as pf? Varajoa has pyed close to 20 percent of his time this year at pf, and I think he is suited that role better) FWIW, Griffin is just as tall and outweighs all three of the guys mentioned. If their teams had true 7 footer, it is likely none of them would be full time centers today. I did not say Milsap was better, but he is not far worse than Blake is either. Ok, I give. Let us all just watch his career and see how all of hsbplays out. If he is really better than Love, Ibaka, Faried and Unibrow, it should clearly play out that way. If the Clippers win a title with him and he eats the top pfs up on the way to the title, this thing could be wapped up in your favor by the end of this season. Last edited by TroyF : 01-03-2013 at 12:52 AM. |
01-03-2013, 01:57 AM | #477 |
High School Varsity
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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What is "Wages of Wins"??? This is the first time ive even heard that or WP
Edit: N/m, found it. This makes sabremetrics look incredibly simple. Last edited by chadritt : 01-03-2013 at 02:03 AM. |
01-03-2013, 02:08 AM | #478 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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The Wages of Wins Journal | Taking aim at the lies and damned lies in sports with stories written by the numbers.
Great site. The nba geek link earlier keeps day to day stats. |
01-03-2013, 02:27 AM | #479 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Wages of Wins (the book) has questionable methodology according to some. I got it and Basketball on Paper for Christmas but haven't had a chance to delve into them yet.
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01-03-2013, 10:37 AM | #480 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Where Hip Hop lives
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Heh... I didn't even need to say anything.
BTW, big props to the Nuggets and Warriors taking it to the Clips the past couple nights. After the win at Utah last week, I always thought the Clips' streak would liekly end in that twosome (although I had hoped they would take one). The Clips should bounce back against the Lakers Friday night and hopefully get some revenge on the Ws on Saturday.
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01-03-2013, 11:02 AM | #481 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
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01-03-2013, 01:02 PM | #482 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
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The Golden State Warriors are 22-10
The Bucks meanwhile are 16-14 despite both Jennings and Ellis shooting 40% from the field (and piss poor advanced shooting stats/efficiency as well), Ilyasova only shooting 40% (and playing like shit in general). While Rivers has been terrible (he´s shooting 56% from the FT line btw ...), Greivis Vazquez has put up pretty good numbers. Tood bad he´s also doubling as the leagues worst defender when paired against PGs are quick 2s ... Omer Asik is well on his way to become an elite defensive player. Very happy that guys like him (or Marc Gasol) get recognition for their defense eventhough it´s hardly producing highlight materials. On that note: When on the court, Duncan and Garnett are still as good and valuable as they were 5 or 10 years ago. Not saying minutes shouldn´t be a factor or that they actually are 1/2, just wanted to state how amazing it is that they still are this good with that amount of mileage on them. Garnett hasn´t got the raw numbers (that Duncan has put up after 2 so-so season, his per36 numbers: 21.4/11.6 with 3 BPG AND 3 APG) but seeing the Celtics with him and then without him is mind boggling. His team defense is absolutely amazing to watch. If Ibaka played close to that level in that regard, we could crown the Thunder right now
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01-03-2013, 04:02 PM | #483 |
Go Reds
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Bloodbuzz Ohio
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I know this is an NBA thread but everyone can appreciate a good dunk, this from HS Sophomore:
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01-03-2013, 04:40 PM | #484 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Saw that last night. Pretty incredible. Only way it seems possible is that he got a bit of lift off the defender's chest with his knee or something, because he reached his peak and then immediately stepped up again.
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Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce |
01-04-2013, 08:43 PM | #485 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Really liking Shaun Livingston off the bench in a Cavs uni. Just a steady player who can cause a bit of havok with those long arms and doesn't make too many mistakes.
Kyrie was just cold blooded against the Bobcats in the 4th Q tonight. I love how he just settles himself into games, then turns it on in the 4th quarter.
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Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce |
01-05-2013, 07:05 AM | #486 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Hope you enjoy him, i personally really like to see him play, even though there´s allways that lingering "what if" when watching him ...
I know that horrific injury is to blame for a lot, but Livingston still could be a much better player if he developed at least some 3 point shooting ability. A nba guard who hits 9 threes in 343 career games ? Wow ... I mean, his shooting % from 16 feet out aren´t even all that bad (in the high 40s) Especially for a role player (who isn´t an uberathlete or a shutdown defender either) that´s a problem.
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“The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes "Awww!” Last edited by whomario : 01-05-2013 at 07:06 AM. |
01-05-2013, 07:44 AM | #487 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Well, considering the guys backing up Irving prior to him coming on board were Jeremy Pargo and Donald Sloan........
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Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce |
01-09-2013, 07:58 AM | #488 |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Chicago
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Honey nut cheerios?
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01-09-2013, 08:26 AM | #489 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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__________________
Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. |
01-09-2013, 12:14 PM | #490 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: the yo'
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Andy out 6-8 weeks. There goes his trade value. I'm getting pretty close to giving up on the NBA.
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01-09-2013, 02:38 PM | #491 |
Favored Bitch #1
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: homeless in NJ
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Lots of rumors the Kings are abut to become the Sonis
http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/...ng-to-seattle/ |
01-09-2013, 03:45 PM | #492 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Quote:
Youch. On the "plus" side, lots more PT for Zeller, considering this season is now officially a write-off. Needs to add upper body strength in a big way, but he's pretty active and has been a surprisingly good mid-range shooter. I'm liking what Tristan Thompson is bringing this year too. He's a good rebounder and, while still painful to watch when he tries to score on anything except a dunk from in close, Andy's hustle has worn off on him.
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Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce |
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01-09-2013, 04:01 PM | #493 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Quote:
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01-09-2013, 04:38 PM | #494 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Love out 8-10 weeks ... Adelman out for personal reason for god knows how long.
This is getting beyond ridiculous Spurs continue to look overseas for depth and sign Center Aron Baynes. From what i can recall of seeing him he´s a pretty athletic big man with good size who is a good roll man on offense, a decent defender and a really good rebounder.
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“The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes "Awww!” Last edited by whomario : 01-09-2013 at 04:44 PM. |
01-09-2013, 04:41 PM | #495 |
Dark Cloud
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Kings were just plagued by bad ownership, but given the team didn't show up there until 1985, I feel a bit less sympathy. I just hope for historical purposes, the Kings franchise ends with 2013 and the Seattle one gets back their old history and picks up in 2013-14.
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01-09-2013, 04:59 PM | #496 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Quote:
Hmm that's interesting. He's an Aussie. I have no idea how he has played in Europe, but I've seen him a number of times with our national team. He's a defensive-orientated big who is not all that athletic. Certainly never looked at him as an NBA-level player... Must have been impressing in the Adriatic league.
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Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce |
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01-09-2013, 07:25 PM | #497 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Mays Landing, NJ USA
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01-10-2013, 03:04 AM | #498 | |
Fast Break Basketball
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Spokane, WA
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Quote:
I gotta believe this is what is going to happen assuming this goes through. Otherwise there would've been no point to insisting that the city got to keep the team history when the Sonics moved. Its hard to blame Kings fans when they've had a horrible product on the floor for years. The Sonics leaving really hurt my love for the NBA. For a couple years I almost never watched a game but it has slowly come back to me.
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01-10-2013, 03:48 PM | #499 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: the yo'
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I hate seeing the Maloofs rewarded with an enormous selling price. I gotta think that if they can get the 500m, many other teams will look to sell.
Wonder if someone will buy a crappy market team like Milwaukee or Cleveland and look to move them somewhere. I wonder if Chicago could support another team. |
01-10-2013, 03:58 PM | #500 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Cleveland does well for its market size. The teams that should be moved or contracted are Atlanta and Charlotte.
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