College Football Week 13: THE BORDER WAR!!!!!!!!

[Atocep]

I'm torn on Tebow for the Heisman. I don't care much for TD numbers, they don't mean a whole lot as they are easily inflated, especially in the college game. His passing numbers do look good, but his rushing numbers are the product of Urban Meyer just pounding the ball with him. (he's averaging a rather poor 4.3 per carry). When you look at his numbers they aren't all that different than Alex Smith's was in the Urban Meyer offense.

I'm starting to see that his offense inflates a QB's numbers similar to the way the run and shoot does. When Florida gets into the red zone it is all Tim Tebow and I doubt it would be different if Urban Meyer had another QB in there that fit his offense. As I said, he's averaging 4.3 per carry while Percy Harvin and Kestahn Moore are averaging 8.6 and 5.6 per carry. Every florida player with at least 10 carries is averaging at least 4.7 per carry except Tebow.

I have a feeling that 3-4 years from now we're going to look at the Urban Meyer offense in much the same way we do a run and shoot when it comes to Heisman consideration.

[henry296]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I'm torn on Tebow for the Heisman. I don't care much for TD numbers, they don't mean a whole lot as they are easily inflated, especially in the college game. His passing numbers do look good, but his rushing numbers are the product of Urban Meyer just pounding the ball with him. (he's averaging a rather poor 4.3 per carry). When you look at his numbers they aren't all that different than Alex Smith's was in the Urban Meyer offense.

I'm starting to see that his offense inflates a QB's numbers similar to the way the run and shoot does. When Florida gets into the red zone it is all Tim Tebow and I doubt it would be different if Urban Meyer had another QB in there that fit his offense. As I said, he's averaging 4.3 per carry while Percy Harvin and Kestahn Moore are averaging 8.6 and 5.6 per carry. Every florida player with at least 10 carries is averaging at least 4.7 per carry except Tebow.

I have a feeling that 3-4 years from now we're going to look at the Urban Meyer offense in much the same way we do a run and shoot when it comes to Heisman consideration.

aren't tebow's ypc deflated by sacks as they count as rushing yards.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by henry296

aren't tebow's ypc deflated by sacks as they count as rushing yards.

He's been sacked 12 times, which wouldn't be enough change the fact that both Harvin and Moore have been much more productive as runners than Tebow.

[TazFTW]

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/new...ov_25_2007.pdf

Heh, Hawaii got a first place vote.

[CU Tiger]

12 sacks for -109 yards....

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

One more thing. Those clamoring for a playoffs already got one. What do you call the games this weekend and next??? If there an 8-teams playoff, then we would repeat some of the games. That's stupid.

No, we would be getting seven more great games, instead of four meaningless ones and only one possibly okay game.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

12 sacks for -109 yards....

Which still keeps him at almost a half yard per carry behind Moore, 3.4 per carry behind Harvin, and also behind Brandom James and Cameron Newton.

[TazFTW]

http://cfn.scout.com/2/705199.html


12th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[k0ruptr]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

http://cfn.scout.com/2/705199.html


12th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nice.

[duckman]

Like I was telling Cuckoo the other day, I wanted Kansas to win because I thought they were the most beatable of two teams. However, this "Missouri beat themselves in Norman" bullshit needs to stop. Both teams turned the ball over and both teams took advantage of those turnovers. It was just that Mizzou turned the ball over four times to the Sooners' two. Plus, Mizzou will have outscore us to win the game because they have a mediocre defense. They won't be able to put pressure on OU (most teams haven't this season), so Bradford will be able to stand in the pocket and make throws. OU beats Mizzou next week 41-27.

[sooner333]

OU opens as 3 point favorites over the #1 team in the country.

[st.cronin]

I wasn't sure about Tebow for Heisman either until I actually looked up his numbers a week or so ago. They really defy belief.

My ballot would be:

Tebow
Chase Daniels
Ray Rice

but its a huge gap from Tebow to the next guy.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by sooner333

OU opens as 3 point favorites over the #1 team in the country.

Considering they are the only team to beat Missouri this year, that's not hard to believe. Who really cares at this point? All that matters is a win over OU puts us in the National Championship.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

http://cfn.scout.com/2/705199.html


12th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wouldn't this put them in a BCS Bowl if the season ended today?

[Dr. Sak]

It would...a win over Washington and Hawaii should go to the Sugar Bowl.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

No, we would be getting seven more great games, instead of four meaningless ones and only one possibly okay game.

Winnah!

[Galaxy]

Hawaii just needs to beat Hawaii, and they are should be fine, correct?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Hawaii just needs to beat Hawaii, and they are should be fine, correct?

They'll be able to pass all over that untested defense.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

To correct some misinformation here. Missouri led 24-23 with 11 minutes to play because of a missed extra point by OU. They led for all of about 10 minutes in the entire game, and Oklahoma had a comfortable 17 point lead until Missouri scored a garbage TD with like 10 seconds left on the clock.

No doubt it was a big advantage for OU in Norman, and I'm by no stretch of the imagination confident about the rematch, particularly with Temple back. But Herbstreit and company were going crazy with the "OU didn't beat Missouri; Missouri beat themselves" comments last night. Missouri got 2 of their touchdowns with short fields due to Oklahoma turnovers, so I would say both teams hurt themselves pretty badly with turnovers.

So your only correction was that Mizzou lead with 11 minutes left, not 9? Call me Baghdad Bob.

Mizzou gave OU all it could handle on its own field without its starting running back. Most agree with Herbstreet that MU gave that game away with crucial mistakes, but I'll let you have your view of the situation. MU now has their starting RB back and OU is missing a RB. MU is the better team in the OU matchup (much like this week) and should beat them.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by duckman

Mizzou will have outscore us to win the game because they have a mediocre defense.

1. MU is the only team in the nation to score 30 points or more in every game this season. You speak as though scoring is somehow an issue with Mizzou.

2. The MU defense has to hold OU under 30 points for MU to win. That's definitely achievable. Most defenses would love to have that option available to them.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by sooner333

OU opens as 3 point favorites over the #1 team in the country.

Vegas made KU a favorite over MU as well.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I'm torn on Tebow for the Heisman. I don't care much for TD numbers, they don't mean a whole lot as they are easily inflated, especially in the college game. His passing numbers do look good, but his rushing numbers are the product of Urban Meyer just pounding the ball with him. (he's averaging a rather poor 4.3 per carry). When you look at his numbers they aren't all that different than Alex Smith's was in the Urban Meyer offense.

I'm starting to see that his offense inflates a QB's numbers similar to the way the run and shoot does. When Florida gets into the red zone it is all Tim Tebow and I doubt it would be different if Urban Meyer had another QB in there that fit his offense. As I said, he's averaging 4.3 per carry while Percy Harvin and Kestahn Moore are averaging 8.6 and 5.6 per carry. Every florida player with at least 10 carries is averaging at least 4.7 per carry except Tebow.

How many TD runs did he have of 1-3 yards? How many QB sneaks on 3rd and 4th and one? Also, keep in mind he is a great QB that can run...how many TDs did Harvin throw? How about any other Florida back who averaged more yards per carry than Tebow? And take away Tebow's ability to run and I'm sure Harvin and company's averages drop because opposing teams don't need to spy Tebow all day.

I hate this crap about how systems are responsible for so 'n' so's numbers. Well, no shit...every player has to play in some kind of system...so everybody is a product of their system...good or bad. McFadden benefits from Arkansas' system yet nobody is saying anything about that. Also, McFadden's YPC is 5.7 while the team is averaging 6.2...so, are the Razorbacks better off running the ball with somebody else other than McFadden?? Looking at the numbers...yeah, they are...they were more productive with the other 270 carries by other players.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

How many TD runs did he have of 1-3 yards? How many QB sneaks on 3rd and 4th and one? Also, keep in mind he is a great QB that can run...how many TDs did Harvin throw? How about any other Florida back who averaged more yards per carry than Tebow? And take away Tebow's ability to run and I'm sure Harvin and company's averages drop because opposing teams don't need to spy Tebow all day.

I hate this crap about how systems are responsible for so 'n' so's numbers. Well, no shit...every player has to play in some kind of system...so everybody is a product of their system...good or bad. McFadden benefits from Arkansas' system yet nobody is saying anything about that. Also, McFadden's YPC is 5.7 while the team is averaging 6.2...so, are the Razorbacks better off running the ball with somebody else other than McFadden?? Looking at the numbers...yeah, they are...they were more productive with the other 270 carries by other players.

I love people that get offended by analysis.

Everyone is product of a system, but I pointed out that Alex Smith put up almost the exact same numbers as Tebow in this offense. Tebow gets a lot of 1 yard TD runs because the offese is designed to just get Tebow as many TDs as possible and thats a big part of his Heisman claim right now. Total TDs.

A week ago in the college football thread I posted that I thought Tebow was easily the Heisman winner. However, I actually took the time to look at the numbers rather than get spoon fed his TD numbers by the media and every SEC fan with a man-crush on Tim Tebow.

McFadden was knocked by others earlier in this thread for his YPC. The thing is Tebow and McFadden have hype around them because of either what they did last year or the team they played for while a guy like Chase Daniel gets no attention because he wasn't on anyone's Heisman list before the season and he doesn't play for Florida.

[sooner333]

Mizzou got the trash time touchdown that was a yard short last time against a prevent defense designed to bleed clock. Mizzou had a good showing and definitely put a scare in the third quarter. However, I think that this whole thing about Mizzou giving the game away is hogwash. OU earned the win and played better...to say Mizzou was in control and then just turned the ball over is ridiculous.

If I were going to talk about this game and try to pump up Mizzou, I'd go Temple in, Murray out. I'd also say how OU's DE's are banged up and not as able to get pressure as they were earlier in the season. That being said, last time I heard this whole "we hung with them" angle was in '02 when Colorado "played with OU" in Norman and Barnett claimed he wanted a mulligan. Well, that didn't turn out too well for CU in round 2.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Vegas made KU a favorite over MU as well.

And they put OU over Boise and opened with OU over USC too. I was just saying OU is a favorite on the opening line in case people were wondering.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

MU is the better team in the OU matchup (much like this week) and should beat them.

Interesting. So apparently Kansas is a better team than Missouri and would beat them in a rematch since it was Jayhawks mistakes that did them in. It must be really fun to live in your world.

Unlike some, I'm not going to pronounce OU the winner. Missouri is certainly capable and may very well win the game. But I have absolutely no idea how anyone can say they are the better team, particularly when the best indicator, a head to head match-up, went Oklahoma's way. And, as demonstrated above, it wasn't as close as Herbstreit and others would like to believe.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Logan

They'll be able to pass all over that untested defense.

Opps...

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by sooner333

...I'd go Temple in, Murray out...

Keep in mind (and I only bring this up because I was interested to learn it), Murray did pretty much nothing in the first meeting. He had a couple of catches but had 2 yards on 4 carries rushing. The power game, particularly with Brown, was far more effective against Missouri.

[Atocep]

Btw, at no point did I say Tebow didn't deserve the Heisman. I simply pointed out that it shouldn't be as cut and dry as people have made it out to be.

The comment on the system is one that we'll have to wait and see on. We were wow'd by Ty Detmer, Andre Ware, and David Klinger's numbers until we realized that any qb that fit that type of system could put up similar numbers. Urban Meyer has had two qbs in his system that have put up almost identical numbers. Just something I found interesting.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Tebow gets a lot of 1 yard TD runs because the offese is designed to just get Tebow as many TDs as possible and thats a big part of his Heisman claim right now.

The reason I mentioned the short TD runs and sneaks on 3rd and 4th and short is because those attempts will also drag down his precious yards per carry.

Offended?? Nah...I'm a casual college football fan who has no affiliation with a particular team or conference...just like to watch good football.

[st.cronin]

What are the opinions on Tebow's pro prospects? I think he's going to be tremendous, if he stays healthy.

[dawgfan]

Dear Dr. Mark Emmert,

Please save Husky football and fire Ty Willingham ASAP.

Thank you,
Husky Nation

[TazFTW]

ASAP meaning after the Hawai'i game.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

ASAP meaning after the Hawai'i game.

You'd like that, wouldn't you

[k0ruptr]

I'm a little worried about the Washington game, but who wouldn't be when their favorite team is on the verge of school and state history pending 1 game. lol

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

I'm a little worried about the Washington game, but who wouldn't be when their favorite team is on the verge of school and state history pending 1 game. lol

From a talent perspective, I think UW can play with Hawaii. Put this game on a neutral field and I think it's a toss-up. But I have a strong fear that the UW players, with little to play for other than the "spoiler" role, will treat this game like a vacation and mail it in.

Locker will be a beast as always, but he can't win without help, and he's just not advanced enough as a passer to offset what Brennan is going to be able to do to the UW secondary unless the UW can control the clock with a power running game and a few turnovers from the defense.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Dear Dr. Mark Emmert,

Please save Husky football and fire Ty Willingham ASAP.

Thank you,
Husky Nation

And hire who?

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

And hire who?

Charlie Weis...duh.

[k0ruptr]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

From a talent perspective, I think UW can play with Hawaii. Put this game on a neutral field and I think it's a toss-up. But I have a strong fear that the UW players, with little to play for other than the "spoiler" role, will treat this game like a vacation and mail it in.

Locker will be a beast as always, but he can't win without help, and he's just not advanced enough as a passer to offset what Brennan is going to be able to do to the UW secondary unless the UW can control the clock with a power running game and a few turnovers from the defense.

is the huskies secondary really that bad, I haven't seen them play at all this year, and just noticed what Alex Brink did against them. Are they suffering from injuries or are they just really bad? I would assume that Washington has a pretty good recruiting budget, and should be able to get some athletes at most positions. It might be an interesting game for Adam Leonard , hes from Seattle, and arguably our best player on defense. I wonder if UW recruited him at all.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

And hire who?

Jim L. Mora would be one obvious candidate. Other guys to consider would be Brian Kelly, Paul Johnson and Chris Peterson.

The bottom line is Ty isn't getting it done at Washington. I don't think he's any better than the 6th best coach in the conference, and might be as bad as the 9th best coach. For a school with the history of success and resources that the UW has in football, that's simply not acceptable.

[k0ruptr]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Brian Kelly, Paul Johnson and Chris Peterson.

these 3 are probably the most wanted coaches right now. Why would any of them choose to go to UW. not saying it won't happen, but why?

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I love people that get offended by analysis.

Everyone is product of a system, but I pointed out that Alex Smith put up almost the exact same numbers as Tebow in this offense. Tebow gets a lot of 1 yard TD runs because the offese is designed to just get Tebow as many TDs as possible and thats a big part of his Heisman claim right now. Total TDs.

I'm not offended by analysis, and personally could not care less for Tebow or Florida. But at first blush your statement seems ridiculous, so I am going to post some research and see how accurate you are.

Tebow (2007)
Passing
217/317 68.5% 3132 9.9ypa 29/6 177.8
Rushing
194 838 4.3ypc 22

Smith (2004)
Passing
214/317 67.5% 9.31ypa 32/4 176.5 (Ok I'll admit VERY similar here)
Rushing
135 631 4.7ypc 10

Ill admit. Im a lil surprised these 2 are closer than I would have thought. I didnt remeber Smith having this good of numbers. Of course I could argue the senior/soph deal and 4 years in a sytem vs 2 etc. And of course the diff between tebow having a long run of 70 vs. Tebow's long of 25 (net effect on YPC) etc. But all in all I will give you your due.


Smith had comparable numbers.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by sooner333

Mizzou got the trash time touchdown that was a yard short last time against a prevent defense designed to bleed clock. Mizzou had a good showing and definitely put a scare in the third quarter. However, I think that this whole thing about Mizzou giving the game away is hogwash. OU earned the win and played better...to say Mizzou was in control and then just turned the ball over is ridiculous.

If I were going to talk about this game and try to pump up Mizzou, I'd go Temple in, Murray out. I'd also say how OU's DE's are banged up and not as able to get pressure as they were earlier in the season. That being said, last time I heard this whole "we hung with them" angle was in '02 when Colorado "played with OU" in Norman and Barnett claimed he wanted a mulligan. Well, that didn't turn out too well for CU in round 2.

Get over yourself. OU has a great team, always do.. but we are right there with them this year for once.

I watched the game too, either team could have one that game, but it was our worst game of the season as far as I'm concerned.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

is the huskies secondary really that bad, I haven't seen them play at all this year, and just noticed what Alex Brink did against them. Are they suffering from injuries or are they just really bad? I would assume that Washington has a pretty good recruiting budget, and should be able to get some athletes at most positions. It might be an interesting game for Adam Leonard , hes from Seattle, and arguably our best player on defense. I wonder if UW recruited him at all.

Leonard got some looks from the UW, but his knee injuries in H.S. ultimately scared them off. In hindsight of course that looks like a big mistake.

The Husky secondary has one good CB in Roy Lewis. The rest of the CB's are average. Byron Davenport played as a frosh at UCLA before transferring due to family issues. He's been up and down this year, and has battled some hamstring issues and recently a knee bruise. Matt Mosley is basically roster-filler - he hasn't shown much, but he'll probably get some playing time. True frosh Vonzell McDowell hasn't seen the field for several games now. He probably should've red-shirted this season - he's physically overwhelmed (he's 5'8" and thin, and has a hard time tackling).

The safeties are worse. Mesphin Forrester takes too many bad angles and makes too many mistakes in reading the play. Darrin Harris is a big hitter, but he's spent the previous 2 seasons on the shelf due to injuries and is still learning how to play. True frosh Nate Williams shows promise as a physical safety, but he's pretty raw from a coverage standpoint.

What compounds this issue is our defensive line doesn't get enough consistent pressure on QB's.

Expect to see the Husky defense play very conservative coverage, with the CB's way off the ball, trying to keep plays in front of them. Brennan will be able to throw and complete as many quick hitches and bubble screens as he wants with the Huskies conceding short passes to try and prevent long ones. But the problem is our CB's still find themselves getting burned on long go routes and post routes.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

these 3 are probably the most wanted coaches right now. Why would any of them choose to go to UW. not saying it won't happen, but why?

Well, a few reasons:

- They'll inherit a team with a fantastic young QB in Locker, the kind of player you can build a program around; there's also some other young talent waiting for the right coaching staff to properly develop them;

- The UW has been down the last 4 seasons, but prior to that the Huskies went 27 seasons without a losing record; This is a program with a history of success and the location, resources and fan base to return to that kind of success;

- The UW athletic department has the money to make a very attractive offer to a new coach;

- The UW is a big step up in prestige for all of those coaches; Obviously with openings in Nebraska, Michigan and possibly UCLA, LSU, Georgia Tech, Louisville and others there will be competition for these guys, but the UW is still an upper-tier job

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I'm not offended by analysis, and personally could not care less for Tebow or Florida. But at first blush your statement seems ridiculous, so I am going to post some research and see how accurate you are.

Tebow (2007)
Passing
217/317 68.5% 3132 9.9ypa 29/6 177.8
Rushing
194 838 4.3ypc 22

Smith (2004)
Passing
214/317 67.5% 9.31ypa 32/4 176.5 (Ok I'll admit VERY similar here)
Rushing
135 631 4.7ypc 10

Ill admit. Im a lil surprised these 2 are closer than I would have thought. I didnt remeber Smith having this good of numbers. Of course I could argue the senior/soph deal and 4 years in a sytem vs 2 etc. And of course the diff between tebow having a long run of 70 vs. Tebow's long of 25 (net effect on YPC) etc. But all in all I will give you your due.


Smith had comparable numbers.

The numbers are only comparable at face value; when you take into account the competition faced, Tebow comes out way ahead.

[k0ruptr]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Well, a few reasons:

- They'll inherit a team with a fantastic young QB in Locker, the kind of player you can build a program around; there's also some other young talent waiting for the right coaching staff to properly develop them;

- The UW has been down the last 4 seasons, but prior to that the Huskies went 27 seasons without a losing record; This is a program with a history of success and the location, resources and fan base to return to that kind of success;

- The UW athletic department has the money to make a very attractive offer to a new coach;

- The UW is a big step up in prestige for all of those coaches; Obviously with openings in Nebraska, Michigan and possibly UCLA, LSU, Georgia Tech, Louisville and others there will be competition for these guys, but the UW is still an upper-tier job

very very good points, I see the reasoning, and I'm all for Chris Peterson leaving the WAC.

[k0ruptr]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Leonard got some looks from the UW, but his knee injuries in H.S. ultimately scared them off. In hindsight of course that looks like a big mistake.

The Husky secondary has one good CB in Roy Lewis. The rest of the CB's are average. Byron Davenport played as a frosh at UCLA before transferring due to family issues. He's been up and down this year, and has battled some hamstring issues and recently a knee bruise. Matt Mosley is basically roster-filler - he hasn't shown much, but he'll probably get some playing time. True frosh Vonzell McDowell hasn't seen the field for several games now. He probably should've red-shirted this season - he's physically overwhelmed (he's 5'8" and thin, and has a hard time tackling).

The safeties are worse. Mesphin Forrester takes too many bad angles and makes too many mistakes in reading the play. Darrin Harris is a big hitter, but he's spent the previous 2 seasons on the shelf due to injuries and is still learning how to play. True frosh Nate Williams shows promise as a physical safety, but he's pretty raw from a coverage standpoint.

What compounds this issue is our defensive line doesn't get enough consistent pressure on QB's.

Expect to see the Husky defense play very conservative coverage, with the CB's way off the ball, trying to keep plays in front of them. Brennan will be able to throw and complete as many quick hitches and bubble screens as he wants with the Huskies conceding short passes to try and prevent long ones. But the problem is our CB's still find themselves getting burned on long go routes and post routes.

I love it when Hawaii plays a team where fans are sensible, and will offer good solid game talk about an upcoming game. I invite you to join us at the sportshawaii.com forums, I'd say 95% of the people there aren't typical Hawaii snobs and will give good talk about the upcoming game.

It sounds to me Brennan may have all day to throw but needs to take whats givin to him ( the underneath and short routes) and not force things.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Get over yourself. OU has a great team, always do.. but we are right there with them this year for once.

I watched the game too, either team could have one that game, but it was our worst game of the season as far as I'm concerned.

Let's be honest here. New week, same type of fan. I don't mind hearing all of this talk about OU's team. They'll be just as quiet as the Jayhawk fans were at the end of last night when it's all said and done.

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

What compounds this issue is our defensive line doesn't get enough consistent pressure on QB's.

Expect to see the Husky defense play very conservative coverage, with the CB's way off the ball, trying to keep plays in front of them. Brennan will be able to throw and complete as many quick hitches and bubble screens as he wants with the Huskies conceding short passes to try and prevent long ones. But the problem is our CB's still find themselves getting burned on long go routes and post routes.

Does the Dline have speed on the edge? If so, then they could cause problems because Hawaii's tackles have been horrible the last three games against speed rushers.

The corners playing off or playing zone and Hawaii will dink and dunk them to death.