July console sales numbers......

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

There were framerate issues in the 360 preview builds, but those concerns were written off as an early build.

I have yet to work on a non-mission pack that didn't have "framerate issues" up until close to release. As long as it runs fast enough for testing, optimization is often done later, mostly because you need to find out WHAT needs optimizing and how all of those features inter-relate.

Heck, especially if you are streaming a lot just spending some time optimizing the DVD layout can help, and you don't want to do that until your content is mostly settled down.

[dawgfan]

Interesting statement considering that the GTA franchise has sold upwards of 44 million copies on the PS2 and claims the top-selling and 3 of the top 4 selling games on the platform.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

I have yet to work on a non-mission pack that didn't have "framerate issues" up until close to release. As long as it runs fast enough for testing, optimization is often done later, mostly because you need to find out WHAT needs optimizing and how all of those features inter-relate.

Heck, especially if you are streaming a lot just spending some time optimizing the DVD layout can help, and you don't want to do that until your content is mostly settled down.

Yep - framerate is usually one of the very last things to get settled in a game. Usually you're fighting a constant battle of adding content and code and then figuring out how to optimize it to improve framerate. There is often a tradeoff between framerate and volume of content as well; generally speaking, content is limited by RAM (the amount of data that can be stored on the system at any one time), and sometimes solutions to reduce the RAM footprint shift the burden to the CPU which decreases framerate.

Because developers are almost always attempting to push the limits of the hardware, framerate is something that almost always is in flux until the very end of development.

[Daimyo]

I'm curious what video games Mizzou B-ball fan has actually worked on since he claimed earlier he had experience in that area....

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Microsoft has so many other AAA type titles coming out: Bioshock (even if it ends up only being a timed release, I doubt we see a PS3 version this year), Mass Effect, PGR (may be a stretch to call that one an AAA), Halo 3, among others.

I think this is my second time mentioning it, but gotta ask "what would you define at AAA titles?" In my mind, there are maybe 5 a generation, the ones that really move consoles. Lots of games move some consoles- like Blue Dragon will get some RPG people but it's definitely not going to move 1M people just to buy the game. I see one up there on that list, personally.

SI

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I think this is my second time mentioning it, but gotta ask "what would you define at AAA titles?" In my mind, there are maybe 5 a generation, the ones that really move consoles. Lots of games move some consoles- like Blue Dragon will get some RPG people but it's definitely not going to move 1M people just to buy the game. I see one up there on that list, personally.

Well, until a title actually ships and sells, anything with a decent budget is AAA

Technically, anything that sells well is AAA. It can be complete dreck, but still be AAA.

Not sure where they draw the line on "AAA", but I'm pretty sure anything that sells a million copies is "AAA", and that's more than 5 per generation.

[SackAttack]

I personally distinguish between system-sellers and AAA.

but that's maybe coming from a baseball mindset where AAA is very good, but a step below the big-time. A system-seller, to me, is the big-time. AAA is a game that can make that step, but won't necessarily establish.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Well, until a title actually ships and sells, anything with a decent budget is AAA

Technically, anything that sells well is AAA. It can be complete dreck, but still be AAA.

Not sure where they draw the line on "AAA", but I'm pretty sure anything that sells a million copies is "AAA", and that's more than 5 per generation.

I'd agree with anything that sells more than a million as a good definition of an AAA title and I'll be shocked if Mass Effect doesn't do that. Halo 3 obviously will. There is a lot of buzz about Mass Effect, and it looks like it is going to be another amazing Bioware RPG.

[Big Fo]

I didn't know it was just a sales thing, I thought AAA had something to do with the quality as well. Mario Party 8 for example has passed a million but I wouldn't think of it as a AAA title, it's just a game that sold well.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

I didn't know it was just a sales thing, I thought AAA had something to do with the quality as well. Mario Party 8 for example has passed a million but I wouldn't think of it as a AAA title, it's just a game that sold well.

"AAA" is a retail / marketing term that has made its way into popular discussion. To retail / marketing folks, sales are it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Can you give any rational explanation how this was more important for the 360. The 360 has many more huge titles coming out in 07 while Sony has hardly any and was really counting on GTA 4 to help combat the Halo crush that is coming (not to mention all of the aforementioned 360 exclusives coming in the upcoming 3 months.)

If they release now, there a pretty good likelihood that most people are going to buy the 360 version simply because there are more 360's by a wide margin. If (and that's a huge if) Sony can meet it's goal of 10.29M units by end of March '08, there's going to be a lot of people who have both consoles in their home who might consider buying it for the PS3 rather than the 360, something they never would have considered now because they only have a 360. It was extremely important to get GTA IV out for the 360 as soon as possible while they have a major advantage and can expand on it. The PS3's going to have a lot more ammo to use when the release occurs, further dividing the entertainment dollars of gamers.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

id Software has announced that the upcoming first person shooter, Rage, will be released on the 360 with two DVD's, while the PS3 version will only require 1 disk.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6176188.html

QuakeCon 07: id Rage-ing on PC, Mac, 360, PS3
Doom-maker crafting all-new driving-shooting actioner set in open-world, post-apocalyptic wasteland; Activision to publish with a T-for-Teen rating in mind.
By Tor Thorsen, Jason Ocampo, GameSpot
Posted Aug 3, 2007 5:00 pm PT

In June at Apple's Worldwide Developers Conference (WWDC), id Software cofounder and chief technical officer John Carmack took the stage alongside Apple CEO Steve Jobs to show off a technology demo. Cryptically titled "id Tech 5," the clip showed a scene reminiscent of Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. Dune buggies raced through a canyon dotted by what looked like post-apocalyptic settlements, and then the camera zoomed inside a hut for a first-person conversation with a merchant straight out of Bartertown.

At the WWDC, Carmack promised to have the same demo--which features over 20GB of texture information--running in real time on the PC, Macintosh, Xbox 360, and PlayStation 3 at the E3 Media & Business Summit in July. However, by the time the scaled-down expo was done, there was no sign of the demonstration anywhere.

Today, though, id Tech 5 surfaced. Behind closed doors at QuakeCon 2007 in Dallas, id CEO Todd Hollenshead revealed the demo was actually the first look at Rage, an all-new IP. As mentioned at WWDC, the game is in simultaneous development for the PC, Mac, PS3, and 360, and will use the second generation of id's "Megatexture" technology. The game will be come on a single Blu-ray disc for PS3 owners, while all other versions will require two DVDs.

Speaking to a small collection of game journalists, Hollenshead explained that Rage was a deliberate departure from the corridor shooters that made id famous. Its gameplay will be "60 percent shooting and 40 percent driving" between villages in a postapocalyptic wasteland. Its setting will be a far future which has seen civilization decimated after a comet smashes into the Earth. Players will aid the villages' inhabitants in fighting both an oppressive regime and various mutants and monsters roaming the wasteland.

According to Rage lead designer Tim Willits, the game's title has a threefold meaning. "You're fighting against a post-apocalyptic goverment, so you're raging against the machine," he said. "Then there's driving combat, so there's road rage." Willits also said that "you can't spell garage without 'rage,'" and then revealed the game will have shops where players can extensively customize their vehicles.

Rage will have open-world elements, allowing players to exit their vehicles and explore caves and other parts of the landscape. The game will feature a single-player campaign that will clock in around 20 hours, but will allow individual missions to be played in co-op mode. No other multiplayer details were announced.

In another major departure from the infamously gory Doom and Quake games, id is developing rage with a T-for-Teen rating in mind. As with all games from the famously reclusive studio, it will ship "when it's done" and will be published by Activision.

During a presentation at the QuakeCon keynote, Carmack quashed hopes of a Wii version of the game, saying that the id Tech 5 engine could not be ported to Nintendo's latest system. Nintendo fans needn't be too crestfallen, however, as Carmack told reporters earlier in the day he'd be happy to make Wii games, and has toyed with the idea of making a Quake Arena-themed game for the DS. There's nothing official about such a project yet, but Carmack said he likes the machine's Wi-Fi and game-sharing capabilities.

Carmack also described his "inverted" approach to developing new intellectual properties to reporters, saying id started Orcs and Elves on a cell phone, and then moved it up to the DS. If it works there, Carmack said he'd like to bring it to the Wii as well. Such an approach to building new properties makes sense, Carmack said, because the initial investment put at risk is much smaller.

[spleen1015]

Do people really care how many disks a game comes on?

Is Final Fantasy 7 a worse game because it comes on multiple disks? I don't think so...

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Do people really care how many disks a game comes on?

Is Final Fantasy 7 a worse game because it comes on multiple disks? I don't think so...

Nor do I. As far as GTA IV, I'm sure the 360 still will sell better than the PS3 version, since it will have exclusive content and even in 6-8 months, there are going to be many more 360's in the market than PS3's. The PS3 isn't going to even come close to closing the gap in 6-8 months. Particularly since, the 360 is about to have the 65nm chips out widely (and a 45nm chip is being worked on) which will improve reliability. Between that and the price drop, I'm willing to bet that Microsoft maintains its huge lead on the number of PS3's.

[oykib]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Wii owners should be excited about this announcement. There's going to be an MLB version of Power Pro Baseball released in the U.S. The Japanese baseball games are a lot of fun and play a very good baseball game. Really excited to get this one.

http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDeta...leaseID=258293

Damn you, Mizzou! Now I have to change my shorts!

[Eaglesfan27]

Reading the previews, it sounds like there will be 12 different modes including an RPG mode where you start in college and work your way towards the majors. That baseball game might be what finally pushes me to buy a Wii.

[MJ4H]

That baseball game might be what finally pushes me to buy a baseball game.

[Calis]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Do people really care how many disks a game comes on?

Is Final Fantasy 7 a worse game because it comes on multiple disks? I don't think so...

Furthermore, do people really care about a game from iD anymore? Sure they have great tech demos, but it's been a LONG time since they've released a good game.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Calis

Furthermore, do people really care about a game from iD anymore? Sure they have great tech demos, but it's been a LONG time since they've released a good game.

And when you have a tech demo that is all about showing off how many textures you can stream, the whole POINT is to use as many discs as possible...

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

And when you have a tech demo that is all about showing off how many textures you can stream, the whole POINT is to use as many discs as possible...

Just to be clear, that's 2 discs on release, not for a demo. The question was asked of the developer when it was noticed they had 2 discs.

I made a post earlier in this thread saying if I was a 360 owner, I would prefer that they move to multiple discs on games and stop imposing the artificial one-disc ceiling. It seems to be this level of denial that was unneeded up until now. That's the part that I find interesting. It seems to be a PR battle by the two companies. The only reason it's a big issue is because MS continues to deny that more space than one disc will be needed during the life of this console. I tend to agree with spleen that it doesn't really matter one way or another. Yet the simple suggestion that it may occur produced a maelstrom in this thread. Interesting stuff.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Reading the previews, it sounds like there will be 12 different modes including an RPG mode where you start in college and work your way towards the majors. That baseball game might be what finally pushes me to buy a Wii.

I'm extremely excited about this game. I haven't bought any games since I first purchased the Wii with the Zelda game. Really have wanted another game to justify the Wii purchase.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'm extremely excited about this game. I haven't bought any games since I first purchased the Wii with the Zelda game. Really have wanted another game to justify the Wii purchase.

Metroid Prime 3 should be a must buy for Wii owners. If you like Halo, you should like Metroid more, IMO.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Renew the MGS to 360 rumors.....HMV taking pre-orders for a fall '08 release, 6 months after PS3 release.......

http://www.hmv.co.uk/hmvweb/simpleSe...=-1&searchUID=

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Renew the MGS to 360 rumors.....HMV taking pre-orders for a fall '08 release, 6 months after PS3 release.......

http://www.hmv.co.uk/hmvweb/simpleSe...=-1&searchUID=

I never really thought they were put to bed. I'm still not convinced FF XIII is going to remain a PS3 exclusive either. Sony needs its exclusive partners to definitively say they aren't releasing their game on any other platform or at least say they aren't releasing on the 360. Until they do that, it will hurt sales.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Just to be clear, that's 2 discs on release, not for a demo. The question was asked of the developer when it was noticed they had 2 discs.

Id's new game will basically be a (very fun) tech demo. Look how they are pushing the tech. The tech is all about number of textures, and thus there is every reason in the world for them to ship on as many discs as possible to show off their massive texture tech.

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I made a post earlier in this thread saying if I was a 360 owner, I would prefer that they move to multiple discs on games and stop imposing the artificial one-disc ceiling. It seems to be this level of denial that was unneeded up until now. That's the part that I find interesting. It seems to be a PR battle by the two companies. The only reason it's a big issue is because MS continues to deny that more space than one disc will be needed during the life of this console. I tend to agree with spleen that it doesn't really matter one way or another. Yet the simple suggestion that it may occur produced a maelstrom in this thread. Interesting stuff.

I'm not sure what you mean. I am unaware of any restriction from Microsoft that limits devs to one disc. The statements you are talking about are just answering the "why don't you have an HD DVD in the console". Shipping on more than one disc means:

- Increased manufacturing costs
- Inconvenience to the user having to switch discs
- Can stuff more content on

For #3 to outweigh the first 2, you have to have more content in the first place, a point dawgfan and I have repeatedly stated is not as prevalent as you try to make it out to be. Putting a bigger disc in would have ZERO impact on the VAST majority of games out there. In the PGR case, they decided that they had an alternative method to provide the lighting they wanted that didn't introduce 1 & 2. You can disagree with their decision all day long, but since you haven't actually played the game in the before and after case, you have no clue whether this was a big hit or not. The developer has and said it wasn't a big deal.

The 512MB memory limit is far more restrictive (and not all THAT restrictive) on a developer than the size of the DVD drive. And I'll point out that the PS3 has the EXACT same limit.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

The 512MB memory limit is far more restrictive (and not all THAT restrictive) on a developer than the size of the DVD drive. And I'll point out that the PS3 has the EXACT same limit.

Totally agree with that. But I'm not sure why the comparison is there. You seemed to throw in that comment as a justification because the oversight wasn't as bad. The two situations are not mutually exclusive. The RAM situation on the PS3 was a dumb design move, no question. But that doesn't exclude the fact that the restrictive size of the DVD on the 360 is going to be a problem as well.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

EF27,

Here's an opinion that basically said the same thing as I did in regard to why the move back of GTA IV was a worse hit to the 360 than the PS3.

GTA IV: Killing the Xbox 360, Boosting the PlayStation 3

08/05/07


For as much flak as Peter Moore got while leading the Xbox 360 team, it's hard to deny that his penchant for adorning his arms gave gamers a couple of very memorable moments. I mean, before Peter Moore's E3 2005 stunt, had you ever seen another executive get a (fake) tattoo for a key franchise (Halo)? And then, not to be outdone, walk into a second E3 with another (fake) tattoo for another franchise (GTA IV)? Seriously, Moore was Microsoft's biggest publicity whore, and he did a dang fine job of it.

But beneath all his excitement lay a few key lessons about Microsoft. For one, the company understood that without a killer exclusive like Halo, the Xbox brand simply wasn't strong enough to justify its R&D expense. That understanding is a key reason that before Knights of the Old Republic came along, the Xbox was playfully known as "a Halo adaptor for your TV." With Xbox 360, Microsoft needed to march onto its next achievement: stealing the "exclusiveness" of the Grand Theft Auto series from Sony. So when Moore strode on stage at E3 2006 with a GTA IV tattoo and announced that Rockstar's game would release "day and date" with the PlayStation 3 version, he was basically bragging like Bush when he said "mission accomplished."

But not so fast, Microsoft. Last week Rockstar delayed GTA IV until at least February 2008, a move that quite literally could have stolen every single ounce of leverage you hoped to have. In fact, that announcement could have single-handedly put your very-real competitors, Sony and the PlayStation 3, in the driver's seat in the GTA IV race, for three reasons.

First off, Microsoft paid $50 million for exclusive downloadable episodes for GTA IV, an unprecedented amount for content that the company presumably hoped would release during the holidays and drive Xbox 360 sales. Well, now Microsoft has not only dropped $50 million for yet-to-be-determined content, but the company has lost all hope of that content boosting holiday sales, because GTA IV won't even be in stores until late Q1 or early Q2 next year.

Secondly, with the delay of GTA IV until after the holidays, Sony has more time to boost its PS3 install base, which, depending on sales, could entice Rockstar to create exclusive downloadable content for that system as well. So, not only does the lack of holiday-released episodes mean Microsoft could fail to widen its install-base gap, but the company could actually see Sony close that gap once GTA IV comes out, because after the holidays Sony could have the critical mass to justify special episodes for the PS3.

Third (and most speculative), Sony could see a PS3 sales boost because Microsoft is shooting its first-party wad early. Rumors earlier this year said Microsoft strategically chose to release Halo 3 in September to appease Rockstar and not give GTA IV any direct competition on the Xbox 360's sales charts. November has been Bungie's sweet spot for Halo release dates, so September always seemed early; with this GTA IV rumor as context, the Halo 3 release date made much more sense. But with GTA IV now delayed, Halo 3 (if it doesn't end up being delayed) will release two months before the holiday shopping season really kicks off, thereby enabling Sony to come out of the Turkey-Day gates with a stellar first-party lineup.

To say GTA IV drives console sales is akin to saying B.B. King can play the guitar. So with Microsoft banking so much on those exclusive episodes, not to mention GTA IV releasing at a time when the Xbox 360 holds an install-base lead over the PlayStation 3, Rockstar's announcement couldn't have been any worse. Does the delay favor Sony and its PlayStation 3? Not necessarily. But it surely doesn't do anything but harm to Microsoft's holiday-release strategy.

If Peter Moore were still at Microsoft, I have a sneaking suspicion he'd be seeking out a tattoo-removal specialist. Because today, that enthusiastic showing two E3s ago that his "mission" was "accomplished" now looks like a 20-something inking the name of a one-night-stand on his bicep.

-- Jonas Allen

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Totally agree with that. But I'm not sure why the comparison is there. You seemed to throw in that comment as a justification because the oversight wasn't as bad. The two situations are not mutually exclusive. The RAM situation on the PS3 was a dumb design move, no question. But that doesn't exclude the fact that the restrictive size of the DVD on the 360 is going to be a problem as well.

My point was that developers spend far more time trying to figure out how to fit their game into 512MB than they do trying to figure out how to fit onto a DVD, but no one screams about it. You keep harping on the DVD size DESPITE constant statements from active developers that for the VAST MAJORITY OF GAMES, IT HAS ZERO IMPACT. Do I need to say it any louder? Can you understand this yet?

The point is that you don't hear about the memory issue because it's not THAT huge a deal, and the DVD issue is even more minor, yet you keep sounding the death knell for the 360 because of DVD size. Heck, the memory issue is more likely to HELP the DVD size as developers turn more and more to procedural textures and away from handcrafted ones.

You are creating a problem where one only exists for a tiny minority of developers. And even the one you tried to use as an example has said it wasn't that big a deal. And yet you continue to belabor the point.

This is like saying PC gaming was going to die back in the early '90s because a CD was not big enough for all the video-based games that were coming out.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

My point was that developers spend far more time trying to figure out how to fit their game into 512MB than they do trying to figure out how to fit onto a DVD, but no one screams about it. You keep harping on the DVD size DESPITE constant statements from active developers that for the VAST MAJORITY OF GAMES, IT HAS ZERO IMPACT. Do I need to say it any louder? Can you understand this yet?

The point is that you don't hear about the memory issue because it's not THAT huge a deal, and the DVD issue is even more minor, yet you keep sounding the death knell for the 360 because of DVD size. Heck, the memory issue is more likely to HELP the DVD size as developers turn more and more to procedural textures and away from handcrafted ones.

You are creating a problem where one only exists for a tiny minority of developers. And even the one you tried to use as an example has said it wasn't that big a deal. And yet you continue to belabor the point.

This is like saying PC gaming was going to die back in the early '90s because a CD was not big enough for all the video-based games that were coming out.

I don't believe I've sounded the 'death-knell' at all nor have I used anything resembling those terms. I'm the one that agreed with the point that multiple DVD's for a game shouldn't be that big of a deal, yet the mere suggestion that it may occur draws harsh criticism as though it's a bad thing. It's honestly somewhat odd at this point. I'm not drawing out the point either. I've already agreed that the RAM issue on the PS3 was a bad move and that multiple DVD games on the 360 isn't a bad thing. More than happy to discuss it though if you'd like to keep posting about it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Engineers in Japan find that Microsoft is still not fixing the source of the problem in the repaired Xbox 360's. They found that the heat sinks are not being repaired and that the fans are functioning at a rate much lower than needed to cool the system, possibly as an artificial way to minimize the complaints about the noise produced by the console. Temperatures inside the repaired Xbox 360 still rose to around 100 degrees Celsius (212 degrees F, which is the boiling point of water)........

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...070801/137224/

Fragile Part of Xbox 360? Thermal Design Expert Investigates
Aug 01, 2007 11:04
Naoki Asakawa, Nikkei Electronics

Microsoft Corp. has logged a huge 1.06 billion USD (130 billion yen) charge due to warranty claims for its "Xbox 360" game console. This is a frightening amount of money for engineers engaged in product design.

Amid current circumstances, where consumer electronics manufacturers often recall their products, this is no longer someone else's affair. We would definitely like to know what caused Microsoft to log such a large cost.

Microsoft itself, however, refuses to reveal details of the malfunction that has forced the company incur huge expenses. So, we can only investigate the cause by ourselves. Nikkei Electronics thereby attempted to analyze the Xbox 360's heat radiation system, having a thermal design expert cooperate.

Nikkei Electronics focused on the heat radiation system for two reasons. One is that the Xbox 360 is known as a game console that often goes thermorunaway.

The other is that some have reported they heard a snapping noise when the Xbox 360 broke down and became inoperative. This makes sense if a component broke due to heat load caused by insufficient heat radiation.

We prepared two units of the Xbox 360 for analysis. One is the Xbox 360 the IT Pro editorial office purchased at the end of 2005. The other is a personal property of a reporter in the IT Pro editorial office who is also a heavy gamer.

The latter one had the same malfunction reported in this time and was repaired in May 2007. We considered we could probably discover the cause of the malfunction by comparing these two units, if Microsoft had implemented new measures to discharge heat when repairing the broken unit.


The heat sink for the graphics LSI is smaller than expected

First, we analyzed an Xbox 360 that we purchased in late 2005 to evaluate the console's standard power consumption and heat radiation when playing a title that required a lot of computing power for 3D graphics.

We measured the temperature of exhaust from the operating Xbox 360.

Power was about 170 W when playing a game.

The Xbox 360's power was about 170 W when the DVD equipment was running. The temperature of emitted air was about 45°C. A temperature gap with the room temperature (23°C) was 22°C.

"When designing consumer products, it is common to seek a temperature gap of around 10°C between exhaust and room temperatures," the thermal design expert said. "The 22°C is quite a large gap, in the first place."

The cooler fan's maximum wind speed was 1.1 m/s, only 1/2 to 1/3 compared with general desktop PCs. It may be partly because the fan rotation was reduced to lower noise. According to an expert's analysis, "The amount of switched air is slightly in short considering the chassis' size (309 x 258 x 83 mm3)."

Then we forced the Xbox 360's chassis open and exposed its main board.

"The heat sink on the graphics LSI is so small, I wonder if it can really cool down the board," our expert said.

Located at front end is the graphics LSI heat sink. At the back is the microprocessor heat sink equipped with a heat pipe.

Microsoft apparently had no choice but to downsize the graphics LSI heat sink in order to locate a DVD drive above it. The DVD drive's bottom surface covers the top of the heat sink and forms an air channel.

"In most PCs, a solid duct covers the top of the heat sink in order to secure an air channel," the expert said.

In the Xbox 360, however, the duct was cut off before the heat sink and the DVD drive, and, instead, chassis took up the heat sink's upper area probably due to limited space inside the chassis.


The temperature of the LSI goes over 100°C

To confirm the cooler system's performance, we measured the temperature of heat sinks. Attaching ends of a thermocouple to each heat sink for the microprocessor and graphics LSI, we closed the chassis and then switched on the Xbox 360.

"Wow, the temperature is rising fast..."

We attached ends of a thermometer to the two heat sinks.

In only five minutes since we started playing the game, the temperature of the heat sink on the graphics LSI rose to 70°C. The thermal gradient was about 10°C/min.

In 15 minutes, the microprocessor heat sink temperature stabilized at 58°C, but the heat sink on the graphics LSI rose to 80°C, 57°C above the room temperature.

Assuming room temperature of 35°C in mid-summer, the gap is estimated to reach more than 90°C. In that case, the temperature of chips in the graphics LSI could exceed 100°C.

We measured the temperature in good cooling environments, removing dust and obstacles from the vent hole, for example. If the cooling performance lowers with the vent hole choked up or the duct moved over, the LSI's temperature could get even higher.

If the malfunction stemmed from insufficient heat radiation, the graphics LSI and components around it are highly likely to be the failure parts.


Microsoft did not change the thermal design in the repair

Finally, we opened the chassis of the Xbox 360 repaired in May 2007 and compared it with the other Xbox 360 we purchased in late 2005.

"Huh? The heat sinks and fans are completely identical, aren't they?"

To our surprise, the composition of the repaired Xbox 360 looked completely the same as that of the Xbox 360 purchased in late 2005. It turned out that Microsoft provided repair without changing the Xbox 360's thermo design at least until May 2007.

[flounder]

Room temperature of 35°C?

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by flounder

Room temperature of 35°C?

Yeah, that struck me too. I don't know too many people who can afford a 360 who can't also afford some type of air conditioning.

My launch 360 is going on 2 years with no problems.

[ISiddiqui]

Room temp at 95 F?! What in the Hell? It's usually over 20 degrees less in my apartment during the summer.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Room temp at 95 F?! What in the Hell? It's usually over 20 degrees less in my apartment during the summer.

It makes one wonder why they're failing at such a high rate even in the air-conditioned homes in the U.S. or why they continue to send out a 'repaired' product which doesn't address the actual issue.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

It makes one wonder why they're failing at such a high rate even in the air-conditioned homes in the U.S. or why they continue to send out a 'repaired' product which doesn't address the actual issue.

Compare when Microsoft announced the recall vs when they said they got repaired console back. Is it not possible that Microsoft is now changing the design?

Be far more interesting for them to have done this on a just-repaired console rather than one at the height of the issue.

Of course, when they are talking about 95 degree rooms, makes it obvious what their slant is.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

It makes one wonder why they're failing at such a high rate even in the air-conditioned homes in the U.S. or why they continue to send out a 'repaired' product which doesn't address the actual issue.

How do you know the issue hasn't been addressed? Doesn't the article state that Microsoft refuses to acknowledge what the actual issue is?

[Bee]

Dola.

Does anyone know if Sony has resolved the scaling issues with the PS3 yet?

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Of course, when they are talking about 95 degree rooms, makes it obvious what their slant is.

Exactly.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Bee

How do you know the issue hasn't been addressed? Doesn't the article state that Microsoft refuses to acknowledge what the actual issue is?

The issue has only been adressed with the Elite units currently on the market. It now has a bigger heat sink. The Core and Premium units currently in stock still have the old defective heat sinks. It's likely that they are now producing Core and Premium units with a better heat sink, but we won't see those for awhile until they sell the current stock, so it's impossible to know until that point. Right now, the Elite unit is the only unit on the shelves that has been fixed. The newer Elite units also have been known to get the RROD error, but it has been at a much lower level than the old versions.

Microsoft's silence doesn't mean the problem isn't known. The heat problems in the console have been known to be the issue for quite some time. MS just refuses to take the PR hit to admit it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Of course, when they are talking about 95 degree rooms, makes it obvious what their slant is.

Except for the fact that they cited all of their research and made sure to note that their projections for a 95 degree room were not actual, but rather projections. My understanding is that the authors have clarified that they used that projection not to suggest that most rooms are 95 degrees, but rather to show how hot a unit could get if it were in an enclosed space as many idiots often put them in an entertainment console. Microsoft's response would be that they warn people to put it in a well-ventilated area, but most people don't read the fine print and the unit is likely going to get repaired anyway if it gets a RROD regardless of where it is located, so you still have a major issue.

It's surprising that an engineer could see these issues so easily, yet MS engineers managed to miss these things that would have only minimally added to the cost to fix it before console release. Bad deal for consumers who purchased the console.

[EagleFan]

After all these months I'll finally bite. What is this boards' big interest with monthly sales numbers for console games?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

After all these months I'll finally bite. What is this boards' big interest with monthly sales numbers for console games?

It's a lot more interesting than political discussions.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Except for the fact that they cited all of their research and made sure to note that their projections for a 95 degree room were not actual, but rather projections.

And yet that's the fact that you started off this part of the thread with:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Temperatures inside the repaired Xbox 360 still rose to around 100 degrees Celsius (212 degrees F, which is the boiling point of water)........

The rest of us had to read that whole article to find out your summary was not based on likely operation, but rather a theoretical worst-case. In fact, this temperature was never actually measured, it's a complete projection:

Originally Posted by article

Assuming room temperature of 35°C in mid-summer, the gap is estimated to reach more than 90°C. In that case, the temperature of chips in the graphics LSI could exceed 100°C.

It never actually "rose to around 100 degrees Celsius", they just project it would if the outside air rose that high.

And you keep wondering why so many of us around here question the way you present your arguments. I'm finally done with the thread, this is just getting absolutely ridiculous...

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

It's a lot more interesting than political discussions.

Commie


Okay, I'll buy that.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

And yet that's the fact that you started off this part of the thread with:



The rest of us had to read that whole article to find out your summary was not based on likely operation, but rather a theoretical worst-case. In fact, this temperature was never actually measured, it's a complete projection:



It never actually "rose to around 100 degrees Celsius", they just project it would if the outside air rose that high.

And you keep wondering why so many of us around here question the way you present your arguments. I'm finally done with the thread, this is just getting absolutely ridiculous...

I'm not done with this thread, but I am done with trying to reason with him on this issue. It is ridiculous. It really makes me consider if he is a paid viral marketer for Sony.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

I'm not done with this thread, but I am done with trying to reason with him on this issue. It is ridiculous. It really makes me consider if he is a paid viral marketer for Sony.

If I was a viral marketer, I'd have something financially to show for it I guess.

As far as the issue, I'm surprised at how quickly the consumers who are holding defective consoles are so quick to ignore the increasing amount of evidence that MS sold them a console which has major defects in engineering. Worse yet, MS still refuse to admit what the defects are as Bee noted, resulting in investigations by press organizations, lawyers in class action lawsuits and even governmental institutions in Europe which only bring the situation to the public in a worse light. MS would be a whole lot better off to just openly say "we f'd up" rather than continue to endure the bad PR without comment.

I have no doubt MS is very happy that Halo 3 is coming out soon to pull the focus away from the defect issues.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

I'm not done with this thread, but I am done with trying to reason with him on this issue. It is ridiculous. It really makes me consider if he is a paid viral marketer for Sony.

Agreed. It has crossed my mind as well.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I don't believe I've sounded the 'death-knell' at all nor have I used anything resembling those terms. I'm the one that agreed with the point that multiple DVD's for a game shouldn't be that big of a deal, yet the mere suggestion that it may occur draws harsh criticism as though it's a bad thing. It's honestly somewhat odd at this point. I'm not drawing out the point either. I've already agreed that the RAM issue on the PS3 was a bad move and that multiple DVD games on the 360 isn't a bad thing. More than happy to discuss it though if you'd like to keep posting about it.

So can we all agree then that disk size for the current generation of consoles is a very minor factor when considering the technical specs of the 360 and the PS3?

I think part of the reason this subject has hit a sore spot with Greg and myself is that you (and possibly others) argued several months back that the Blu-Ray DVD provided the PS3 a big gaming advantage over the 360 with regular DVD drives. I explained at the time that RAM limits were far more restrictive than disk space, and that the current RAM size of both consoles meant that very few games would run into problems with the size of a regular DVD, thus meaning that Blu-Ray gave the PS3 only a very, very small technical advantage for gaming. Yet you continue to try and present this as a big issue by pointing out any possibility that a 360 game might find themselves limited by disk space.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

So can we all agree then that disk size for the current generation of consoles is a very minor factor when considering the technical specs of the 360 and the PS3?

I generally agree that it's a minor factor, but one to be considered. I personally always thought the multiple disc 'haters' (for lack of a better word) were overblown in their issues with having more than one disc for a game. There are some people that bitched about multiple discs on the PS2, something that I never personally had a problem with when I played those games. But regardless of my opinion, it's certainly a good discussion topic, as this thread has shown in spades.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I generally agree that it's a minor factor, but one to be considered. I personally always thought the multiple disc 'haters' (for lack of a better word) were overblown in their issues with having more than one disc for a game. There are some people that bitched about multiple discs on the PS2, something that I never personally had a problem with when I played those games. But regardless of my opinion, it's certainly a good discussion topic, as this thread has shown in spades.

I have no problem with multiple disk releases. I'm just saying that there will be very few games on the 360 that will be forced to face the decision to go multiple disk or not - most games will fit on the standard DVD size footprint, given the much more significant limit of 512 MB RAM. And lets be clear - 512 MB RAM is still plenty.