OT: Star Wars Episode III

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by TargetPractice6

What's there to know? Greivous is the droid general. He leads the droid army. Mace Windu crushed his chest at the very, very end of the cartoon and that is why he coughs. There really isn't much to tell about him. It is pretty obvious who he is and what his role is in the movie. Wanting his entire backstory would be like wanting ANH to give Tarkin's entire backstory. Dooku was a disgruntled Jedi who Palpatine found to replace Darth Maul. I really don't see what you want to know about them...

I agree with HB here. For the average SW fan that does not rent every related video, read every book released, or scour websites, but enjoys (and in my case, owns) all the movies, Grievous did not get developed well, at all. Is he a droid trying to become human or a human kept alive by machines? How was someone like him able to "steal" the empereror completely out of the blue? I wouldn't care about the coughing/wheezing so much, except they made such a big deal of him doing it in all of his scenes. To the casual fan, I don't think it is at all obvious who he is and what his role is.

[KWhit]

At first I thought he was a droid who coughed. I thought that to be a very odd choice.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by TargetPractice6

What's there to know? Greivous is the droid general. He leads the droid army. Mace Windu crushed his chest at the very, very end of the cartoon and that is why he coughs. There really isn't much to tell about him. It is pretty obvious who he is and what his role is in the movie. Wanting his entire backstory would be like wanting ANH to give Tarkin's entire backstory. Dooku was a disgruntled Jedi who Palpatine found to replace Darth Maul. I really don't see what you want to know about them...

If Grevious is the droid general. And he leads the droid army. Why did he have not one, but four light sabers? Was he one of the Emperor's Sith trainees? I think this was explained in the movie, but I forget now. If he was a Jedi, a half-man/half-machine precursor to Vader, why didn't he use more force powers against Obi Wan? Or did he? I sort of forget, to be honest. I was pretty bored with that whole chase scene and chicken-lizard dragon thing.

[TargetPractice6]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

If Grevious is the droid general. And he leads the droid army. Why did he have not one, but four light sabers? Was he one of the Emperor's Sith trainees? I think this was explained in the movie, but I forget now. If he was a Jedi, a half-man/half-machine precursor to Vader, why didn't he use more force powers against Obi Wan? Or did he? I sort of forget, to be honest. I was pretty bored with that whole chase scene and chicken-lizard dragon thing.

He took them from Jedi he killed. I think he told Anakin and Obi-Wan that their lightsabers would make a good addition to his collection so you can tell he kept them as trophies.

[Pyser]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

How was someone like him able to "steal" the empereror completely out of the blue?

they made it pretty clear that he answered directly to Palpatine. Palpatine obviously set up the "abduction".

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Pyser

they made it pretty clear that he answered directly to Palpatine. Palpatine obviously set up the "abduction".

So, was Palpatine's plan than to have Greivous abudct him and then have Anakin and Obi Wan come rescue him so that Anakin would kill Dooku, which would not only leave a Sith-in-training vacancy but also continue Anakin's path towards the Dark Side? Wow. And some people were complaining about Luke's plan to free Han!

[Pyser]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

So, was Palpatine's plan than to have Greivous abudct him and then have Anakin and Obi Wan come rescue him so that Anakin would kill Dooku, which would not only leave a Sith-in-training vacancy but also continue Anakin's path towards the Dark Side? Wow. And some people were complaining about Luke's plan to free Han!

id look at it as more of a test than a full plan...dooku answered to palpatine, so anakin was probably never in danger...but basically, yes....that seemed to be the plan.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by TargetPractice6

He took them from Jedi he killed. I think he told Anakin and Obi-Wan that their lightsabers would make a good addition to his collection so you can tell he kept them as trophies.

I thought they also mentioned that he was trained by Dooku.

In the Clone Wars cartoon, they showed both the Jedi he killed and his collecting of the sabers and the training but they never showed who or what he was- why/how he's part organic and part machine. But that's pretty common for Genndy)

SI

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

So, was Palpatine's plan than to have Greivous abudct him and then have Anakin and Obi Wan come rescue him so that Anakin would kill Dooku, which would not only leave a Sith-in-training vacancy but also continue Anakin's path towards the Dark Side? Wow. And some people were complaining about Luke's plan to free Han!

Yet we know that Palpatine can see the future far better than anyone else in the movies. It seems the only misstep he makes in his predictions was that Vader would do him in, in the end. However, in ESB and RotJ how many times did Palpatine say "I have forseen it" and it comes off in the way he has forseen.

Luke is a baby-Jedi and doesn't have even close to the same ability. At most, we know he can see what happens to his friends in the present.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Yet we know that Palpatine can see the future far better than anyone else in the movies. It seems the only misstep he makes in his predictions was that Vader would do him in, in the end.

Yeah. That and those pesky Ewoks.

[TazFTW]

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

That comic looks like it was done ala Paint by Numbers.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

Decent explanation. Would have been nice to seem him be more of a threat and less of a coughing bafoon. Also, we shouldn't need to see cartoons or read comics to understand the role of newly introduced major villains.

[judicial clerk]

Maybe Lucas was looking for a cough syrup merchandising tie-in for the franchise. Star Wars is really under-represented in the over the counter medication sector.

[ice4277]

The idea of introducing movie characters or plot points is just starting to take hold. The same thing was done for the Matrix series, with characters more fully fleshed out in video games and cartoons. For better or worse, 'convergence' like this is only going to become more prevalent.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ice4277

The idea of introducing movie characters or plot points is just starting to take hold. The same thing was done for the Matrix series, with characters more fully fleshed out in video games and cartoons. For better or worse, 'convergence' like this is only going to become more prevalent.

Yeah, and we all know how well those Matrix sequels turned out...

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

Yeah, the Labyrinth of Evil novel leading into the movie goes in-depth about Grievous' background, that he was a general in a backwater world planet in a civil war. He was crippled in a shuttle craft accident and the same doctors who created Vader's machinery created Grievous in much the same way. Grievous was a kind of Vader 0.1. The coughing is a by-product of the fact that the process wasn't perfect.

He did not have force powers, but since his human skills were augmented with droid technology, he had tremendous speed and reflexes. Dooku took him as a pseudo apprentice, teaching him jedi skills. He kept the light sabers of killed jedis, which is what led to him wielding four sabers at a time. In the novel, Dooku acknowledges that while Greivous could beat run-of-the-mill jedis, a Knight like Obi-Wan or Windu would eat him for lunch. I believe the LOE novel also indicates that Dooku caused the shuttle craft accident on purpose so they could turn Grievous into a killing machine.

It's been alluded to a bit here, but I think a legitimate criticism of all three prequels, probably ROTS more than the others, is that they don't stand alone very well. ROTS makes a lot more sense and is a lot more entertaining if you have watched the Clone Wars cartoon and read some of the expanded universe literature. That's great for fans like me who enjoy reading the books, but it's not-so-great for causual fans who can't figure out what the heck Grievous is in the movie.

[judicial clerk]

I didn't know that there were run of the mill jedis who are not knights. Those must be the guys Mace Windu took with him to fight the emperor. They really sucked.

[Pyser]

Originally Posted by judicial clerk

I didn't know that there were run of the mill jedis who are not knights. Those must be the guys Mace Windu took with him to fight the emperor. They really sucked.

REALLY sucked. i mean, at least TRY to defend yourself! raise your arm...do something!

[Buccaneer]

I had to take my stepson which very badly wanted to see the movie. I'm sorry, the only good thing I can say about the movie was I thought the lava world looked very cool.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Pyser

REALLY sucked. i mean, at least TRY to defend yourself! raise your arm...do something!

You mean hitting the enemy's light sabre with your chest as hard as you can is not the best defense?

[Buccaneer]

Ok, I just read this whole thread and understood what most of you are talking about. Just a few belated comments:
1. Lucas cannot direct humans and certainly cannot write dialogue
2. Way, way, way, way too much CGI that was all style and no substance (and we thought Bruckhiemer was bad)
3. The scene between Obi-Wan and Padme in her place had got to be most embarassing scene ever (acting-wise and dialogue-wise)
4. While Obi-Wan did mimic Sir Alec's voice mannerisms well, his hand gestures and putting his hands to him mouth/beard way too many time was very distracting and amateur acting
5. Episodes 4-6 (at least 4-5) were good because they took time to develop characters, given them personalities and have them act (maybe not acting good but it felt like a story). Anyone who thinks these prior movies were boring grew up on frantic CGI movies and don't know what storytelling is.
6. I can't think one scene in RotS where I thought the acting/dialogue was compelling, emotional or captivating
7. All of the lightsaber fights were way too overdone to the point where one just watches the flashing lights go twirling around
8. There were some captivating sceneries in the movie but once they started adding all of CGI mechs, it took away from them
9. Ep 4-6 felt more "real" because the interactions were mostly between humans or human-like characters, even the enemy mechs had character because they were driven by humans. Most of the battles in RotS had no soul or character because they were fighting pure machines.
10. I thought the actor playing Vader was good looking and that Padme chick had bad complexion and bad hair. Both couldn't act though.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Ok, there's only so much screen time available to tell a very intricate story. If you spend time talking about Dooku and Grievous, etc., then you lose out on developing the "main" story about the fall of Anakin. I am sure some of these explanations were cut for the theatrical release (just like they are done for many movies). The extended DVD no doubt will include further information that some of you thirst after. All in all, good flick. No. 3 in my book and a nice wrap up the story.

However . . . . because of the gobs of money involved, I no doubt believe Lucas will make another, and not Ep. 7 (boring plot, who cares now that the Empire is gone), but watch for Ep. 3.5. to fill the gap between ROTS and ANH. I believe the public would want that -- more Vader, seeing him become a real bad ass. I would definitely want to see that, especially if someone besides Lucas wrote and/or directed it. I would like to see something even darker -- there is some real potential there.

[TazFTW]

The upcoming television series is going to take place between 3 and 4.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Ok, I just read this whole thread and understood what most of you are talking about. Just a few belated comments...

I was born long long ago...

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

10. I thought the actor playing Vader was good looking and that Padme chick had bad complexion and bad hair. Both couldn't act though.

Ok... I'm going to take a step back here. I'm worried you said something you don't quite mean.... what I'm hearing is that in your opinion Hayden Christiansen is hot and Natalie Portman is not. Please please tell me that this is some kind of mistake. The heterosexual status of this entire board hangs in the balance.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

I was born long long ago...

Wise is Master Buccaneer. And, when 900 years you reach, look as good you will not.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Yes, because between Star Wars where the Death Star is destroyed and it looks like the tide is turning for the New Repulic and The Empire Strikes Back where the Rebels are again on their heels isn't a huge gap. Check out the intro to Episode V:

As was pointed out elsewhere, a gap in time is not necessarily a gap in story. Remember that at the end of ANH, all but 3 of the Rebel starfighters on Yavin were gone along with their pilots / gunners. The Rebellion had won a great victory, but at great cost.

Compare this to AotC / RotS, where at the end of AotC the Republic is just starting to field its great clone army and has just trounced much of the droid army, and at the start of RotS their freakin' HOME PLANET is under massive attack.

Other bits have been addressed elsewhere. But even if this is the trend, it's not a trend I like. You could at least understand the Matrix sequels even if you hadn't played the video game to get the introductions to the other characters. At no point during the Matrix sequels did I have to ask "where did this huge army suddenly materialize from?" Many of the characters in the Matrix who have back stories were secondary characters, not key figures like Dookoo or Grievous. Sheesh, I know more about Boba Fett from these movies than I do Dookoo or Grievous.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

5. Episodes 4-6 (at least 4-5) were good because they took time to develop characters, given them personalities and have them act (maybe not acting good but it felt like a story). Anyone who thinks these prior movies were boring grew up on frantic CGI movies and don't know what storytelling is.

Or we were 12 years old when we saw Episode 5 in the theaters on its first release and just didn't find the character development all that interesting I will admit it was better watching it again after the DVD release.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

Ok... I'm going to take a step back here. I'm worried you said something you don't quite mean.... what I'm hearing is that in your opinion Hayden Christiansen is hot and Natalie Portman is not. Please please tell me that this is some kind of mistake. The heterosexual status of this entire board hangs in the balance.

Only from a cinematography point of view. The lighting and angles on him seem to have been better than on her. As a former photographer, I always tend to look at how photogenic anyone is.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

The upcoming television series is going to take place between 3 and 4.

Does anyone know how this is going to work? Who the actors are? The plot? Anything?

I hope it's not a Galactica 80 in waiting.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Does anyone know how this is going to work? Who the actors are? The plot? Anything?

I hope it's not a Galactica 80 in waiting.

Judging by the senility of Lucas, I would guess that Josh Hartnet as Han Solo is a shoo in.

[TazFTW]

From what I hear it will not feature any main characters (of course that could change). It will be live action and it is slated for 100 episodes. Kevin Smith has been signed to write and direct a 3 episode arc.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

No main characters? How is that going to work? Sounds like it will be like one of the expanded universe novels about some side story. Meaning an episode 3.5 for theatrical release with the main characters is still a real possibility and one I would bank on.

[fantastic flying froggies]

I just read thru all 10 pages of this thread!

I'd avoided it on purpose because I wanted to know as little as possible about the movie.

I finally went to see it this morning, and just about everything I can think of has been covered in this thread...

In summary, I kinda liked it, but thought it could have been better...

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Ok, there's only so much screen time available to tell a very intricate story. If you spend time talking about Dooku and Grievous, etc., then you lose out on developing the "main" story about the fall of Anakin. I am sure some of these explanations were cut for the theatrical release (just like they are done for many movies). The extended DVD no doubt will include further information that some of you thirst after. All in all, good flick. No. 3 in my book and a nice wrap up the story.

My solution to this.

Gut most of episode 1. Leave in finding a teenaged Anakin (one with acting "powers" in addition to his "force powers") and add most of Episode II to it. Heck, have the Queen/Senator taken prisoner and have Anakin pull a Luke and rescue her.

Anakin's too old to learn the training of the Jedi, but somehow is so powerful in the Force that he uses it accidently occasionally, and that's why he has to be trained.

Episode II= Clone wars, and you see Anakin enjoy having power over people and he starts to slip to the Dark side. Padme can occasionally bring him back, but you can see him start to slip. He's one hell of a warrior, but glories too much in the slaughter.

Episode III- Conclusion of the Clone Wars, as Anakin slips completely into Vader. Jedi discover Palpatine's a Sith, by this time Anakin is almost completely on his side anyway, and does more or less what he does in this movie. Padme sees what he's become, and slips away to Aldaraan without telling him she's pregnant. She dies a few years later, just long enough for Leia to remember her being sad, (because Anakin is well, evil now) Obi-Wan turns him into a barbecue at the end of the movie, and Yoda calls him to Aldaraan where he takes Luke to Tatooine to separate the children.

Some of this I winged up, some I've read from what other people have suggested. But seriously, all that is important in Episode I is really finding Anakin. Nothing else is really vital to the story. Less of that, more conflicted and dark Anakin.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

No main characters? How is that going to work? Sounds like it will be like one of the expanded universe novels about some side story.

I think that's the only way to do it. Though I bet that any side story show will have a 'cameo' by some of the big guys. I'm positive that Han would show up for an episode or two if the series lasts over a few years.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think that's the only way to do it. Though I bet that any side story show will have a 'cameo' by some of the big guys. I'm positive that Han would show up for an episode or two if the series lasts over a few years.

You can bet a season finale/premiere type episode would have some stuff like that.

SI

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think that's the only way to do it. Though I bet that any side story show will have a 'cameo' by some of the big guys. I'm positive that Han would show up for an episode or two if the series lasts over a few years.

I think it will involve some of the characters whose names have been mentioned but rarely, if ever, seen, like Captain Antilles, who takes control of the droids at the end of Ep III and is briefly mentioned at the beginning of Ep IV.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, I think Antilles would be better than the Adventures of Bail Organa .

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by bronconick

My solution to this.

Gut most of episode 1. Leave in finding a teenaged Anakin (one with acting "powers" in addition to his "force powers") and add most of Episode II to it. Heck, have the Queen/Senator taken prisoner and have Anakin pull a Luke and rescue her.

Anakin's too old to learn the training of the Jedi, but somehow is so powerful in the Force that he uses it accidently occasionally, and that's why he has to be trained.

Episode II= Clone wars, and you see Anakin enjoy having power over people and he starts to slip to the Dark side. Padme can occasionally bring him back, but you can see him start to slip. He's one hell of a warrior, but glories too much in the slaughter.

Episode III- Conclusion of the Clone Wars, as Anakin slips completely into Vader. Jedi discover Palpatine's a Sith, by this time Anakin is almost completely on his side anyway, and does more or less what he does in this movie. Padme sees what he's become, and slips away to Aldaraan without telling him she's pregnant. She dies a few years later, just long enough for Leia to remember her being sad, (because Anakin is well, evil now) Obi-Wan turns him into a barbecue at the end of the movie, and Yoda calls him to Aldaraan where he takes Luke to Tatooine to separate the children.

Some of this I winged up, some I've read from what other people have suggested. But seriously, all that is important in Episode I is really finding Anakin. Nothing else is really vital to the story. Less of that, more conflicted and dark Anakin.

I like this. Unfortunately, Lucas didn't ask you to write the script!

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

If Grevious is the droid general. And he leads the droid army. Why did he have not one, but four light sabers? Was he one of the Emperor's Sith trainees? I think this was explained in the movie, but I forget now. If he was a Jedi, a half-man/half-machine precursor to Vader, why didn't he use more force powers against Obi Wan? Or did he? I sort of forget, to be honest. I was pretty bored with that whole chase scene and chicken-lizard dragon thing.

Do kindly watch the Clone Wars catoon series. It was meant to be the filler for the gap between Epsiode II and Epsiode III.

It showed how Anakin grew as a Jedi, how he became a somewhat popular figure in the republic. Of course, all the character development got thrown out the window when Anakin stepped into the big screen.

Grievous worked under Dooku. Only Dooku knew that Palpatine was actually Sidious. Grievus led the assault on coruscant without the knowledge that he was actually abducting the Sith Lord.

He was able to kill about 3 Jedi in Coruscant, I believe. (If what the cartoons try to point out is correct) Only one Jedi was left (the twi'lek) defending the Chancellor, until she was able use her cunning and force powers to thwart Grievous.

By the time Grievous was able to capture Palpatine, Mace Windu was fortunate enough to have CRUSHED his chest through the force. Ouch.

Oh, and Grievous did collect lightsabers from the fallen Jedi, and was taught the art of using a lightsaber by Dooku. Grievous did NOT have the ability to sense the force, or use it. He was just too damn quick for the Jedi.

The entire cartoon series lasts about 3-4 hours, if i can remember the marathon correctly. :-/

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Oh, and Grievous did collect lightsabers from the fallen Jedi, and was taught the art of using a lightsaber by Dooku.

Who taught Han Solo how to use Luke's lightsaber on the Tauntaun?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Who taught Han Solo how to use Luke's lightsaber on the Tauntaun?

I don't reckon that move was all that complicated, mate.

[Raiders Army]

Exactly. So what is this art of using a lightsaber? Grievous didn't have any Force powers did he? That spinning hands thing was pretty cool, but I never saw Dooku use that move. I guess my point is that there isn't too much art involved. It's using a sword.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Exactly. So what is this art of using a lightsaber? Grievous didn't have any Force powers did he? That spinning hands thing was pretty cool, but I never saw Dooku use that move. I guess my point is that there isn't too much art involved. It's using a sword.

I imagine there is quite a difference between slicing open a dead tauntaun and actually engaging in hand-to-hand combat. There is more than using a sword then just swining it around and sticking the pointy end into the other guy.

I don't think Dooku could do the spinning hands thing, I think Grievous could do that because he was a droid and his wrists were on spinners or whatever. Besides, while the spinning hand thing looked all nice and flashy with the pretty whirling colors and all, it didn't seem all that effective.

[Kodos]

I saw the movie again last night. I like it enough that I'll buy it when the DVD comes out (I have no interest in seeing the first two prequels ever again). It is annoying that Lucas can't see when he has a dumb plot element that could easily be rewritten to be better by even a hack like me.

For instance, the scene where Anakin's mom is chained to a wall, and seemingly doing okay. Anakin shows up, and 5 minutes later, she drops dead. Why not write it so that he witnesses them killing his mom, and then he understandably goes apeshit and kills them all?

And instead of having Padme lose her will to live, why not just have her die during childbirth? Instead, she basically has the babies, names them lovingly, and then drops dead for no physical reason.

It just takes away from what was for the most part an enjoyable movie.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Do kindly watch the Clone Wars catoon series. It was meant to be the filler for the gap between Epsiode II and Epsiode III.

Great, I have to go watch a TV show to understand a movie with a monstrous budget.

I didn't even know about this series until this thread.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Great, I have to go watch a TV show to understand a movie with a monstrous budget.

I didn't even know about this series until this thread.

I didn't know about it until the cab ride over to see the movie. My friend told me all about it. I had no clue and I am a geek. I know this kind of stuff. How this flew so under the radar is beyond me.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I didn't know about it until the cab ride over to see the movie. My friend told me all about it. I had no clue and I am a geek. I know this kind of stuff. How this flew so under the radar is beyond me.

I always thoguht those clone wars cartoons werent cannonized version of the SW universe, or at least wasnt related to the plot.