The REAL Way to Keep Baseball Games Short

[Ksyrup]

Throw effin' strikes!

Cubs/Expos - 0 walks, 27 K's. Game time - 2:15.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=230409116

[mckerney]

It's good to see a young pitcher not getting yanked because 'his pitch count is too high'.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Throw effin' strikes!

Cubs/Expos - 0 walks, 27 K's. Game time - 2:15.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=230409116

113 pitches for Prior - 89 strikes - I like his chances in that game .

[ISiddiqui]

Notice there was no DH in that game either .

[RonnieDobbs]

Other than Estes, the Cubbies pitching has been damn sharp this year. Or perhaps the Cubs have just taught me to be an eternal optimist.

[Neuqua]

Substitute Cruz in for Estes (As the Cubs will hopefully do within the next few weeks) and we got a very formidable rotation!

But then again, we're Cubs fans.

Neuqua

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Notice there was no DH in that game either .

Now if you like no offense, how about 35 degrees wind blowing in at 17 MPH every game.

[HornedFrog Purple]

We can give the Cubs Chan Ho Park to even things out, he does speed up the game as soon as he leaves which is early.

Regarding the DH whether you agree with it or not, it has prolonged some good careers of good players such as Edgar Martinez, Palmeiro and a few others along the years who are hitting machines. Not every good hitter can become a DH as it takes a different mentality so these even out.

Besides I'd much rather watch them hit then say Jesse Orosco.

[ISiddiqui]

Regarding the DH whether you agree with it or not, it has prolonged some good careers of good players such as Edgar Martinez, Palmeiro and a few others along the years who are hitting machines. Not every good hitter can become a DH as it takes a different mentality so these even out.

Don't care, don't care, etc . If you can't field, you don't deserve to have a bat in your hands, IMO.

Besides I'd much rather watch them hit then say Jesse Orosco.

And I'd much rather watch someone else hit than Rey Ordonez, but no on is suggesting a DH for light hitting middle infieldres .

Anyway, it makes games shorter .

[Vince]

How about not getting to your computer in time last night, and having both Vazquez AND Prior on your bench? That sucks

[Ksyrup]

Yes it does.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
And I'd much rather watch someone else hit than Rey Ordonez, but no on is suggesting a DH for light hitting middle infieldres

You mean the Rey Ordonez who is tied for 8th in the AL with 9 RBI's? Gotta love the stats after 2 weeks!

[Alan T]

I watched this game on MLB.tv it was a great game... The weather made me think it was more fitting for a football game though. Every time a batter hit the ball you could see them wince. The ball was heavy, wind was bitter and hard....

Vazquez and Prior both were unbelievable though, Vazquez just gave up two too many big hits. Prior kept most of his stuff down and got a bunch of ground outs...

Cubs might be the Braves of the 2000-2010 if they can keep that nice young pitching together.. Scary for the rest of the NL...

[daedalus]

Originally posted by mckerney
It's good to see a young pitcher not getting yanked because 'his pitch count is too high'.

Of course, one threw 113 and the other threw 96. Yeah, I don't think they're going to get yank for "high pitch count" with THAT kind of numbers. I also don't see a problem with a young pitcher getting pulled for "high pitch count". Not all pitchers have arms that can handle high workload. Those with the more violent type of deliveries especially.

[Ksyrup]

On the topic of pitch counts did you guys see what Rich Harden in Oakland's organization is doing? In two starts in Double A, he's pitched a combined 13 perfect innings - 39 outs, not one base runner. However, the A's had him pulled both times because of pitch counts (85 and 92, I think).

You can't argue with Oakland's success with young pitching, and maybe it's excusable because it's April and he's 21, but I sometimes think the pitch count thing is not so important.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
On the topic of pitch counts did you guys see what Rich Harden in Oakland's organization is doing? In two starts in Double A, he's pitched a combined 13 perfect innings - 39 outs, not one base runner. However, the A's had him pulled both times because of pitch counts (85 and 92, I think).

You can't argue with Oakland's success with young pitching, and maybe it's excusable because it's April and he's 21, but I sometimes think the pitch count thing is not so important.

You all should read the articles on baseballprospectus.com about the injury nexus for young pitchers. High pitch counts in the early twenties drastically increase the risk of injuries. The notion of making them "tougher" and being "men" doesn't make a lot of sense when their arms fall off. The two organizations that have done the most to limit pitch countrs for young pitchers in the minors and majors are the A's and Padres. I don't think it is a coincidence that they have some of the best young pitchers in the game.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
On the topic of pitch counts did you guys see what Rich Harden in Oakland's organization is doing?

Wait a second... you're telling me the A's have a guy named Dick Harden? And he's a pitcher?

Must... refrain from... obvious.... Piazza joke.

[Ksyrup]

I have seen those, but I've also seen a couple of articles pointed out by Will Carroll that discount the injury nexus. Not sure who to believe, frankly. If only one of the sides was being presented by Iraq's Minister of Information, then I would have a more clear-cut answer.

Seriously, the injury nexus makes sense, and there are tons of examples to prove that theory, but then again, the negative would prove the other theory, and it's so much easier to count as examples those who get hurt, rather than those who don't...

[primelord]

Originally posted by Alan T
Cubs might be the Braves of the 2000-2010 if they can keep that nice young pitching together.. Scary for the rest of the NL...

That's one of the funnier things I have read in quite awhile.

[primelord]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
On the topic of pitch counts did you guys see what Rich Harden in Oakland's organization is doing? In two starts in Double A, he's pitched a combined 13 perfect innings - 39 outs, not one base runner. However, the A's had him pulled both times because of pitch counts (85 and 92, I think).

You can't argue with Oakland's success with young pitching, and maybe it's excusable because it's April and he's 21, but I sometimes think the pitch count thing is not so important.

Looking at it as a fan I agree with you. I hate when a pitcher who is just rolling through guys gets pulled because of pitch count.

But at the same time if you are the A's what reason would you have for leaving him in? He got his work in for the day. So why even risk it? A perfect game is amazing, but a Double A perfect game would be forgotten after this year. It wouldn't beenfit the pitcher to let him finish the game and it only risks the chane he could get hurt.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Funny that pitch counts are mentioned about youth. One of my nephews who is almost 15 throws low-mid 80's. His coach wanted him to throw a curveball which I said no because he is still growing. I told the coach if I ever see him throw one he is off the team. Coach said fine and he throws a changeup now.

I think part of the problem is some of these kids learn to throw breaking stuff way too early and are not taught correctly to begin with. These lend themselves to later injury problems as the kid matures.

But it's all moot because he will probably play football or hoops anyhow.

By the way if you want to speed up the game, banish Tony LaRussa. He is the one who took situational pitching matchups to the extreme.

[ISiddiqui]

I think part of the problem is some of these kids learn to throw breaking stuff way too early and are not taught correctly to begin with. These lend themselves to later injury problems as the kid matures.

Well then teach them correctly!

I don't like the talk about someone being 'too young' to throw a curve. This has led to substandard curve ball pitchers in the majors. The reason Zito has such an amazing curveball is because he started pitching it since he was SIX years old.

[Craptacular]

We should teach more kids how to throw the knuckle ball.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Well then teach them correctly!

I don't like the talk about someone being 'too young' to throw a curve. This has led to substandard curve ball pitchers in the majors. The reason Zito has such an amazing curveball is because he started pitching it since he was SIX years old.

I see your point, but to tie in with the pitch count theory I would rather have him taught properly at a higher level since he will go out there and throw 120+ pitches anyways. The torque on an elbow throwing a curveball is tremendous and even more so if not done properly.

At this point he does not need a breaking pitch.

[ISiddiqui]

Well maybe not for your kid, but I mean young pitchers in general. I think young pitchers should be eased into the curve, and taught it correctly.

[Vince]

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple
One of my nephews who is almost 15 throws low-mid 80's.

Your nephew is 14 and he throws low to mid 80's heaters? Jesus...

[HornedFrog Purple]

Yeah he has topped out at 84, but its really not as rare as it may sound. When he grows he should hit the 90's. The hard part will be keeping him interested in baseball and making sure he doesn't hurt himself along the way. He understands how hard it is to make the big show in any sport and is deadset on going to college. Hopefully TCU, but it's up to him. (not that I won't offer the suggestion)

I guess in a way I am a soccer uncle but I would rather see him make his own choice when he fully understands what he is doing. Kids have the tendency to not tell you when something is hurting or bothering them.

[Ksyrup]

I was throwing in the low 70's at age 13 and look how I turned out. I think it was because I was never taught a curve ball!

[oykib]

Hey HFP, you should look up Mike Marshall. He has a pitching camp in Florida. He is the Dodger guy who pitched and ungodly number of innings in relief for Tommy Lasorda in the 70s

Supposedly, he has a system whereby he can improve mechanics to not only greatly reduce the chance for injury, but doesn't affect breaking stuff and improves velocity. Most baseball men are leery of trying anything new, but he has a few major leaguers whose careers he has turned around.

As to the pitch count thing-- why in the hell would you not have a pitch count on guys in the minors. Games in the minors don't mean anything except for the instructional value. You learn as much about pitching in 85 pitches as you do in 125. Those extra forty pitches really can't be justified.

[INDalltheway]

Last summer, when I was 14 I had bad shoulder problems. I can tell you to wait to throw breakers until you reach your last two years of highschool. There is nothing worse than not being able to put you arm above your head. My arm has gotten a lot better, but only because of weeks of physical therapy.

I am freshman now, and I am actually progressing a lot faster than my coaches and doctors thought. I am getting some varsity action now, but I wont be pitching anymore. I am now stuck in the infield. Just last week I hit my first homerun over the fence on the "big field." I am a lefty with a sweet stroke. Smoked my ball over the 320 sign in right.

[mckerney]

Originally posted by oykib
You learn as much about pitching in 85 pitches as you do in 125. Those extra forty pitches really can't be justified.

The main question around this is, are you saving the kid from arm injuries, or are you just conditioning him to not be able to throw more than 85-95 pitches.

Pitchers used to pitch complete games in a 3 man rotation. Now with a 5 man rotations pitchers are pulled after the 6th inning because they've thrown too many times.

[oykib]

Originally posted by mckerney
The main question around this is, are you saving the kid from arm injuries, or are you just conditioning him to not be able to throw more than 85-95 pitches.

Pitchers used to pitch complete games in a 3 man rotation. Now with a 5 man rotations pitchers are pulled after the 6th inning because they've thrown too many times.

What most people don't understand about those numbers that the old guys put up is that they didn't pitch hard most of the time.

In the old days, pitchers used to coast for most of the game. They would only bear down when there was a slugger up and/or there were men on base.

Actually the Sabermetric 'consensus' is that the five-man rotation doesn't really accomplish anything as far as protecting your pitchers' arms.

But the evidence points to the idea that throwing pitches is not particularly damging. Throwing pitches while tired is what causes most of the problems.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Yeah oykib he went to a coaching clinic by Lance Brown who is a pretty respected college baseball coach last summer. In fact he was someone who had suggested I put his learning breaking pitches at his age on hold.

The funny thing is he plays 3rd base when he doesn't pitch.

I dunno there is so many different theories of how to groom a pitcher its mindnumbing. But I think it's Leo Mazilli? who has the Braves starters throw on the side after their start and it seems to have worked over the course of his career as pitching coach.

Dave Duncan is another guy who does a good job.

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by INDalltheway
Last summer, when I was 14 I had bad shoulder problems. I can tell you to wait to throw breakers until you reach your last two years of highschool. There is nothing worse than not being able to put you arm above your head. My arm has gotten a lot better, but only because of weeks of physical therapy.

I am freshman now, and I am actually progressing a lot faster than my coaches and doctors thought. I am getting some varsity action now, but I wont be pitching anymore. I am now stuck in the infield. Just last week I hit my first homerun over the fence on the "big field." I am a lefty with a sweet stroke. Smoked my ball over the 320 sign in right.

You being a lefty, I wouldn't think you'd have to learn to throw much a of a breaking pitch. When I was 12, they wouldn't let me pitch the first half of the season b/c you couldn't throw curves during the first half, and my ball had too much movement.

Oh the days of being a 13 year old hitting the mid-70's and a curve that could go from chest high on the left-side to a right handed batter's feet. Let this be a lesson to you kids: Never play indoor tackle football in an unpadded Gym. Broke my wrist and it never healed correctly. I can't even play tennis for more than 10 minutes now without quitting in pain. Thank God there was soccer.

[mckerney]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
Let this be a lesson to you kids: Never play indoor tackle football in an unpadded Gym. Broke my wrist and it never healed correctly. I can't even play tennis for more than 10 minutes now without quitting in pain. Thank God there was soccer.

I broke an elbow playing tackle snow football, but I'd still recomend that, helluva lotta fun.

[Easy Mac]

Snow footballs the shit... we fucked up our soccer field freshman year of college by jumping the gate and playing football all after noon.

[INDalltheway]

Easy Mac- I am one of those weird kids. I bat left throw right. I just picked up the bat lefthanded when I was young, and my dad kept me hitting that way.

[Ksyrup]

Yes, I did enjoy the fact that as a lefty, my "straight" fastball did all sorts of wierd things. Guys that I would play catch with would comment on it, thinking I was throwing some sort of breaking pitch or cutter while just tossing the ball.

Ah, those were the days, when I had some athletic ability...too bad I peaked at age 13!

[lynchjm24]

The Twins gave me some great ideas about speeding up games yesterday.

Play guys like Doug Mienkiewicz at first base, leave guys like Bobby Kielty on the bench.

Find Chris Gomez. Sign him. Put him at short.

Simple ideas like this will shave time off all of those annoying offensive innings.