Palmerio Suspended

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Chubby

I have one, I use it to look at evidence and make an informed decision. You however, use to bury your head in the sand and pretend nothing is going on.

He failed a drug test, he has given no defense other than vague "It wasn't me, it was the one armed man!" of course I guess the boogyman could have swooped in and pissed in that cup instead of him...

No, you have a single-track mind that is focused on tar and feathering anyone with a taint of steroids and is also incapable of understanding an opinion that doesn't follow exactly with your own.

As I've said I don't know how many times now, there's a pretty good chance Palmeiro is guilty. The longer he hides behind his current denial with no further action, the more it becomes certain that he's lying. At this point though, a rational analysis would yield the possibility that he's telling the truth, and no, people with brains don't need to use the boogeyman as the reason why.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

No, you have a single-track mind that is focused on tar and feathering anyone with a taint of steroids and is also incapable of understanding an opinion that doesn't follow exactly with your own.

As I've said I don't know how many times now, there's a pretty good chance Palmeiro is guilty. The longer he hides behind his current denial with no further action, the more it becomes certain that he's lying. At this point though, a rational analysis would yield the possibility that he's telling the truth, and no, people with brains don't need to use the boogeyman as the reason why.

Oh, I don't think there's much question of whether he's guilty. Not only has he tested positive, he tested positive for a powerful 'roid not found in suppliments.

[rkmsuf]

I mean if you are going to take something non-intentionally you might as well swing for the fences.

[Flasch186]

could it be in a cream or a donut?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

could it be in a cream or a donut?

A really big, oversized donut.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

As I've said I don't know how many times now, there's a pretty good chance Palmeiro is guilty. The longer he hides behind his current denial with no further action, the more it becomes certain that he's lying. At this point though, a rational analysis would yield the possibility that he's telling the truth, and no, people with brains don't need to use the boogeyman as the reason why.

I am really not seeking to bark you down, dawgfan. I understand your argument. And when you enter into this sort of debate consistently arguing that something is "possible," you end up coming off like you are arguing that that thing is actually the case. At some tines in this thread, you sounded as thought you were trying to argue that it was actually likely, maybe even very likely, that this was all just some sort of harmless misunderstanding, and that Palmerio remains innocent of any wrongdoing. I don't know how likely you believe that to be true at this point, but you are technically correct to insist that it is still at least possible.


Where I (and it seems a few others) are coming from is that that standard of absolute proof is simply too high. Players who exhibit so many signs, indirect and circumstantial as though they may be, of steroid use simply do not deserve the benefit of the doubt on this issue. Rafael Palmeiro is no exception, indeed, he now becomes the obvious example.

I don't need airtight, absolute proof beyond a reasonable doubt to draw my own conclusions (which, of course, don't matter at all). And I have.

Palmeiro is just one more guy who used steroids or any number of performance-enhancing products to improve his performance in sports. He vehementy denied this to be true. Now he has been exposed as not only a user, but a liar.

I am very, very comfortable with reaching this conclusion. I recognize that there is some sliver of possibility that I have misjudged him, and for that I have no regret at all. I am far more comfortable feeling that this is a fair conclusion, rather than stretching my imagination in every possible way to try to fathom explanations that allow for all the people who cry foul to actually be innocent. I think the people who continue to try to find ways to accept the non-denials and bullshit excuses from every perpetrator are doing more harm than good, as they perpetuate this sort of absurd behavior.

I would like it very much if Palmeiro stepped up, held a press conference, and simply outed himself as a long time user, and threw himself on the mercy of public opinion. I don't expect this to happen, and the reason why is in no small part due to the significant number of people who will work hard to find a way around all the evidence that points to this obvious conclusion. If there weren't anything to be gained by acting like everything was just a coincidence or a mistake, the guilty parties wouldn't do it, and this issue would be a lot simpler. Alas...


For what it's worth, you and others (but you have been the most vigilant about this) have made me think more about the parallels between steroid use and the use of other illegal drugs or other cheating or semi-cheating activities. I have't yet settled my opinions on this, to be fair. I continue my disdain for steroid users, but if anything, you are convincing me that I ought to have similar disdain for a wider range of athletes from the past and present. So, to the extent you feel like you have been arguing with a brick wall, that may not be completely the case.

Cheers.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2123113

According to the NY Times, Palmeiro tested positive for stanozolol which was the same substance that Ben Johnson used in the '88 Olympics.

Well, the NYT does make up stories from time to time.


I was listening to a doctor that specializes in sports medicine on the radio this morning, and he said there is zero/zilch/nada chance that someone could have taken this drug "accidently." Unless Palmeiro "accidently" took some medication meant for his cattle. I guess someone could have spiked his coke or something, but other than that or space aliens dosing him and removing his memory, then we must just say "liar, liar, pants on fire."

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

Well, the NYT does make up stories from time to time.


I was listening to a doctor that specializes in sports medicine on the radio this morning, and he said there is zero/zilch/nada chance that someone could have taken this drug "accidently." Unless Palmeiro "accidently" took some medication meant for his cattle. I guess someone could have spiked his coke or something, but other than that or space aliens dosing him and removing his memory, then we must just say "liar, liar, pants on fire."

No the correct response is he was "set up like a m-fer".

You can't prove he wasn't.

[Wolfpack]

Anyone still think he's bound for the Hall now? I'm thinking Veterans Committee several years after he drops off the ballot.

[Maple Leafs]

Interesting. Obviously someone in the commisioner's office got a little tired of Palmeiro's act (and the fact that some people were actually buying it) and decided to throw him under the bus.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Pacersfan46

Not nearly as big of a name, and hasn't threatened any serious records yet.

Sosa, and Bonds chased the single season records at one point, and were even have thought to be a threat for Hank Aarons all time HR record.

That's the only explanation I have.

Not to mention, he's considered one of the "good guys" in baseball. Even his free agency decision was covered in a light most favorable to him, portraying him as agonizing over the decision to leave Cleveland for Philly. Not that that didn't happen, but I'm sure it happens far more often than is reported, but with him, it was THE story.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I am really not seeking to bark you down, dawgfan. I understand your argument. And when you enter into this sort of debate consistently arguing that something is "possible," you end up coming off like you are arguing that that thing is actually the case. At some tines in this thread, you sounded as thought you were trying to argue that it was actually likely, maybe even very likely, that this was all just some sort of harmless misunderstanding, and that Palmerio remains innocent of any wrongdoing. I don't know how likely you believe that to be true at this point, but you are technically correct to insist that it is still at least possible.


Where I (and it seems a few others) are coming from is that that standard of absolute proof is simply too high. Players who exhibit so many signs, indirect and circumstantial as though they may be, of steroid use simply do not deserve the benefit of the doubt on this issue. Rafael Palmeiro is no exception, indeed, he now becomes the obvious example.

I don't need airtight, absolute proof beyond a reasonable doubt to draw my own conclusions (which, of course, don't matter at all). And I have.

Palmeiro is just one more guy who used steroids or any number of performance-enhancing products to improve his performance in sports. He vehementy denied this to be true. Now he has been exposed as not only a user, but a liar.

I am very, very comfortable with reaching this conclusion. I recognize that there is some sliver of possibility that I have misjudged him, and for that I have no regret at all. I am far more comfortable feeling that this is a fair conclusion, rather than stretching my imagination in every possible way to try to fathom explanations that allow for all the people who cry foul to actually be innocent. I think the people who continue to try to find ways to accept the non-denials and bullshit excuses from every perpetrator are doing more harm than good, as they perpetuate this sort of absurd behavior.

I would like it very much if Palmeiro stepped up, held a press conference, and simply outed himself as a long time user, and threw himself on the mercy of public opinion. I don't expect this to happen, and the reason why is in no small part due to the significant number of people who will work hard to find a way around all the evidence that points to this obvious conclusion. If there weren't anything to be gained by acting like everything was just a coincidence or a mistake, the guilty parties wouldn't do it, and this issue would be a lot simpler. Alas...


For what it's worth, you and others (but you have been the most vigilant about this) have made me think more about the parallels between steroid use and the use of other illegal drugs or other cheating or semi-cheating activities. I have't yet settled my opinions on this, to be fair. I continue my disdain for steroid users, but if anything, you are convincing me that I ought to have similar disdain for a wider range of athletes from the past and present. So, to the extent you feel like you have been arguing with a brick wall, that may not be completely the case.

Cheers.

what he said

[dawgfan]

The report from the NY Times certainly changes things - if true (and I only say that because even the NY Times isn't immune to screwing up) then it seems to blow away Palmeiro's implied excuse that his positive test came from over-the-counter supplements.

Quik, I appreciate the response. Perhaps this will help you and others in understanding where I'm coming from - I don't know if this has happened to you or not, but I've been accused by others of doing something I didn't. They felt that circumstantial evidence was sufficient to feel convinced of my "guilt". There are few feelings more frustrating than being wrongly accused of something. As such, I'm sensitive to the possibilities of people being wrongly accused.

When I was pointing out that I didn't feel like the evidence implicating Palmeiro for knowingly taking steroids was enough yet to feel convinced that he was lying in his denial, it wasn't so much to argue that I was convinced he wasn't lying (at the time the story came out and I'd had a while to digest all the factors, I felt it was about 70% likely he was lying), it was to argue that there was enough of a chance that he might be telling the truth that we should wait a bit before deciding beyond all shadow of a doubt that he's guilty.

The NY Times report changes things in the case of Palmeiro. It's still possible he's innocent (a mix-up of his urine sample with another player) but this report appears to debunk the excuse of inadvertant intake via an over-the-counter product.

If my resistance to making a quick judgement in these situations causes windbags like Chubby to call me spineless, then so be it.

One of the real shames in the Palmeiro situation is his lying makes it that much harder for subsequent players that test positive to be believed when they make similar denials. Let his case be a lesson to players that are telling the truth when they claim to have not knowingly taken steroids - you'll need to do better than just claim your innocence, you'll have to take compelling action.

Most of you probably haven't been following closely the details of the Ryan Franklin case due to his relative obscurity, but he and his brother (who acts as his agent) are making some interesting claims in his case. Franklin also claims (more explicitly than Palmeiro) that he thinks the positive test must've come from his use of over-the-counter supplements from GNC. He says he's been tested multiple times and only once has tested positive, after which he stopped taking the GNC supplements. He claims in a test taken 3 weeks after his only positive test, he came back clean.

Working against him (and in his appeal) is the fact that he submitted his supplements to be tested and they came back negative. Working potentially in his favor is a claim by his brother that medical experts are dubious about the fact that his test 3 weeks after the positive test came back clean - the supposed opinion of the medical experts he's relying on is that the substance he tested positive for shouldn't have diluted enough in the 3 subsequent weeks to no longer show up positive in the following test.

We'll see if Franklin and his brother pursue this more vigorously and follow-up on these claims. It should be noted that Franklin competed in the 2000 Olympics and was clean for those tests, and his performance in that tournament was the catupult for him gaining a legit look from the M's to join the staff.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by stevew

How is it that every single trial detail, etc, of any criminal case is leaked, other stuff is leaked, but yet apparently Palmerio tested positive for roids several weeks(?) or more ago, and it wasnt leaked?

They're now reporting that he tested positive in May. I find it pretty hard to believe that they managed to sit on it this long without somebody leaking it...

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

They're now reporting that he tested positive in May. I find it pretty hard to believe that they managed to sit on it this long without somebody leaking it...

maybe it was non-intentionally not leaked

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

The report from the NY Times certainly changes things - if true (and I only say that because even the NY Times isn't immune to screwing up) then it seems to blow away Palmeiro's implied excuse that his positive test came from over-the-counter supplements.

Quik, I appreciate the response. Perhaps this will help you and others in understanding where I'm coming from - I don't know if this has happened to you or not, but I've been accused by others of doing something I didn't. They felt that circumstantial evidence was sufficient to feel convinced of my "guilt". There are few feelings more frustrating than being wrongly accused of something. As such, I'm sensitive to the possibilities of people being wrongly accused.

When I was pointing out that I didn't feel like the evidence implicating Palmeiro for knowingly taking steroids was enough yet to feel convinced that he was lying in his denial, it wasn't so much to argue that I was convinced he wasn't lying (at the time the story came out and I'd had a while to digest all the factors, I felt it was about 70% likely he was lying), it was to argue that there was enough of a chance that he might be telling the truth that we should wait a bit before deciding beyond all shadow of a doubt that he's guilty.

The NY Times report changes things in the case of Palmeiro. It's still possible he's innocent (a mix-up of his urine sample with another player) but this report appears to debunk the excuse of inadvertant intake via an over-the-counter product.

If my resistance to making a quick judgement in these situations causes windbags like Chubby to call me spineless, then so be it.

One of the real shames in the Palmeiro situation is his lying makes it that much harder for subsequent players that test positive to be believed when they make similar denials. Let his case be a lesson to players that are telling the truth when they claim to have not knowingly taken steroids - you'll need to do better than just claim your innocence, you'll have to take compelling action.

Most of you probably haven't been following closely the details of the Ryan Franklin case due to his relative obscurity, but he and his brother (who acts as his agent) are making some interesting claims in his case. Franklin also claims (more explicitly than Palmeiro) that he thinks the positive test must've come from his use of over-the-counter supplements from GNC. He says he's been tested multiple times and only once has tested positive, after which he stopped taking the GNC supplements. He claims in a test taken 3 weeks after his only positive test, he came back clean.

Working against him (and in his appeal) is the fact that he submitted his supplements to be tested and they came back negative. Working potentially in his favor is a claim by his brother that medical experts are dubious about the fact that his test 3 weeks after the positive test came back clean - the supposed opinion of the medical experts he's relying on is that the substance he tested positive for shouldn't have diluted enough in the 3 subsequent weeks to no longer show up positive in the following test.

We'll see if Franklin and his brother pursue this more vigorously and follow-up on these claims. It should be noted that Franklin competed in the 2000 Olympics and was clean for those tests, and his performance in that tournament was the catupult for him gaining a legit look from the M's to join the staff.

so now you need confirmation of the drug test he already failed AND the NYT article being accurate because "(and I only say that because even the NY Times isn't immune to screwing up)"?

[Ksyrup]

I believe that both Buster Olney and Jayson Stark said that they had received information that a big name player had tested positive as far back as June, but were given absolutely no names, and they didn't know whether to trust their sources enough to pursue it further. And, with not even a name to dangle, it's not like they could report a positive test for "some star player."

[Ksyrup]

Jose Canseco closed a deal to publish a second book, which will have more revelations on steroid use. Canseco also is talking to NBC about a role in a proposed sitcom.
-- Miami Herald

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Jose Canseco closed a deal to publish a second book, which will have more revelations on steroid use. Canseco also is talking to NBC about a role in a proposed sitcom.
-- Miami Herald

Cha-ching!

[Ksyrup]

As always, in times like these...we, the public, are the real losers.

[rkmsuf]

Good things happen to the good guys.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Canseco also is talking to NBC about a role in a proposed sitcom.

Working title: "The Steroid-Infested, Exploitive Loser"

[rkmsuf]

I wonder is I'll still be able to get my afternoon with him. I'm very close to booking it.

[Klinglerware]

Why the continued hate for Canseco? It's becoming obvious that he had the most credibility at those congressional hearings...

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I wonder is I'll still be able to get my afternoon with him. I'm very close to booking it.

Hallandale Beach Restrooms, Stall 3, 2pm, September 19th. You only need to bring your ass, Jose's got the needles. You're confirmed.

And as a bonus, you can talk like a pirate to each other.

[Chubby]

Rafael Palmeiro has agreed to release information about his failed drug test to Congress, including the results, dates of the tests and other relevant details.

The Baltimore Orioles slugger tested positive for the powerful steroid stanozonol, a person with knowledge of the sport's drug-testing program told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity Wednesday. The person did not want to be identified because the sport prohibits disclosure about test results without authorization.

Government Reform Committee chairman Tom Davis, a Virginia Republican, and ranking Democrat Henry Waxman of California issued a statement Wednesday saying Palmeiro has "pledged his full cooperation" with their inquiry.

"The Government Reform Committee today is requesting from Major League Baseball documents related to Rafael Palmeiro's suspension for a positive steroids test. The Committee is seeking the results of the drug tests, the date of the tests, and other relevant information," the Davis-Waxman statement said.

"He has agreed to authorize the release of all relevant documents to the committee, which will help us fully understand the facts of the situation. Once we review the documents, we will determine our next step."

In confirming that he would cooperate with the committee, Palmeiro said that if it has any additional questions, "I am ready and willing to answer each and every one of them."

Palmeiro, who testified before a congressional panel in March that he "never used steroids," became baseball's highest-profile player to receive a 10-day suspension Monday after testing positive for a performance-enhancing drug.

Stanozolol, known by the brand name Winstrol, is most notably linked to the Olympic sprinter Ben Johnson of Canada, who was stripped of his 100-meter gold medal in 1988. It is not available in over-the-counter supplements and is known as a powerful strength-builder, casting doubt on Palmeiro's claims that he ingested the drug unwittingly.

The test came after Palmeiro's appearance before Congress in March but before he recorded his 3,000th hit last month, meaning he reached the milestone -- joining Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and Eddie Murray as the only players with 3,000 hits and 500 homers -- knowing that steroids had been detected in his body.

Palmeiro was the seventh player to fall under baseball's new, tougher steroids policy; Seattle Mariners right-hander Ryan Franklin became the eighth when he was also suspended 10 days for a violation Tuesday.

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Jose Canseco closed a deal to publish a second book, which will have more revelations on steroid use. Canseco also is talking to NBC about a role in a proposed sitcom.
-- Miami Herald

Odds are that this will appear in next week's SI under the heading of "This week's sign of the Apocalypse:".

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Why the continued hate for Canseco? It's becoming obvious that he had the most credibility at those congressional hearings...

Unless Congress granted him a new life, he's still himself. I don't see anything that would change my feelings about him.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Why the continued hate for Canseco? It's becoming obvious that he had the most credibility at those congressional hearings...

Because he's a steroid-infested, exploitive loser. A bottom-feeder. An abomination of what I think a pro athlete should be. A representation of what's bad about baseball. That's a start, anyway...

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Hallandale Beach Restrooms, Stall 3, 2pm, September 19th. You only need to bring your ass, Jose's got the needles. You're confirmed.

And as a bonus, you can talk like a pirate to each other.

HAR!




ps: man that made me laugh. good job.

[Ksyrup]

You know me, I'm all over September 19th.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Chubby

so now you need confirmation of the drug test he already failed AND the NYT article being accurate because "(and I only say that because even the NY Times isn't immune to screwing up)"?

Fuck you. You still can't read. Yes, it's still possible that he didn't knowingly use steroids, and it's possible that the leak to the NY Times isn't accurate, but I thought I'd made it quite clear that this new batch of information makes it overwhelmingly likely that Palmeiro is lying.

To elucidate (because you clearly didn't get it the first time you read it):

Originally Posted by dawgfan

When I was pointing out that I didn't feel like the evidence implicating Palmeiro for knowingly taking steroids was enough yet to feel convinced that he was lying in his denial, it wasn't so much to argue that I was convinced he wasn't lying (at the time the story came out and I'd had a while to digest all the factors, I felt it was about 70% likely he was lying), it was to argue that there was enough of a chance that he might be telling the truth that we should wait a bit before deciding beyond all shadow of a doubt that he's guilty.

The NY Times report changes things in the case of Palmeiro.

And later...

Originally Posted by dawgfan

One of the real shames in the Palmeiro situation is his lying makes it that much harder for subsequent players that test positive to be believed when they make similar denials.

[WSUCougar]

Yeah, but you're still, ya know...a Husky and all. So there.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Yeah, but you're still, ya know...a Husky and all. So there.

I still have a rash from having to wear those Cougar boxer shorts...

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Fuck you. You still can't read. Yes, it's still possible that he didn't knowingly use steroids, and it's possible that the leak to the NY Times isn't accurate, but I thought I'd made it quite clear that this new batch of information makes it overwhelmingly likely that Palmeiro is lying.

To elucidate (because you clearly didn't get it the first time you read it):



And later...

it's also still possible that aliens injected steroids up his ass while he was abducted. it's also possible that he is an alternate dimension version of Raffy where NOT taking steroids is illegal. It's also possible that Ben Johnson pissed in his cup by accident.

don't worry, we all know that you won't think anyone is guilty of anything unless they do it right in front of you. Gotta leave that 5% out there so you can say "Well I never said i thought he was guilty, just that it looked overwhelmingly like it"

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Chubby

it's also still possible that aliens injected steroids up his ass while he was abducted. it's also possible that he is an alternate dimension version of Raffy where NOT taking steroids is illegal. It's also possible that Ben Johnson pissed in his cup by accident.

don't worry, we all know that you won't think anyone is guilty of anything unless they do it right in front of you. Gotta leave that 5% out there so you can say "Well I never said i thought he was guilty, just that it looked overwhelmingly like it"

I give up. You obviously are either incapable of understanding my point or simply so much of an asshole that you're not bothering to try. I'm guessing it's the latter.

What is possible is that his sample got mixed up, though extremely unlikely. What is also possible is that the leaked info to the NY Times and the AP about what he tested possible for is made up by someone with an agenda, though also extremely unlikely. We'll probably find out for sure when his results are forwarded to Congress.

What I have done is stated I think it's extremely likely at this point that Palmeiro is lying. I don't know that for sure, but there is now enough evidence that I can say with high confidence that he's lying. Before the NY Times report, I didn't think there was enough evidence to say with high confidence that he was lying - I thought it was more likely than not he was lying, but I felt there was enough wiggle room that I couldn't be absolutely certain. And I said that whatever wiggle room he had would diminish rapidly as each week went by if he didn't take some action to back up his claim.

I think most other people here understood my point even if they didn't agree with my conclusions. You on the other hand have made it a point to be a complete asshat. Not that this is surprising - you have a habit of doing so.

[Chubby]

is "with High Confidence" like 82.7%?

again, trying to leave outs for yourself. see QS' post

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Chubby

is "with High Confidence" like 82.7%?

again, trying to leave outs for yourself. see QS' post

I'm not leaving outs for myself - I think he's lying.

I don't know for sure that Pete Rose gambled on baseball - it's possible he 'fessed up simply to move on. But I think the likelihood of that is so miniscule that I have no problem saying he bet on baseball.

I don't know for sure that O.J. Simpson killed his wife, but the preponderance of evidence and the amount of effort that would've been required to frame him is so high that I have no problem saying I think he killed his wife.

I don't know for sure that Rafael Palmeiro is lying about not intentionally taking steroids. But the weight of evidence, especially the new info, is enough that I have no problem saying I think he's lying.

In none of these cases do I know with 100% accuracy and never will, but I'm convinced enough to be secure in my opinion.

You don't know whether he's lying or not, but you're convinced he is. After the report from the NY Times, so am I. The difference is that I required a higher level of evidence to make that decision for myself than you did, which for some reason caused you to act like an ass about it.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Why the continued hate for Canseco? It's becoming obvious that he had the most credibility at those congressional hearings...

Well I was under the impression that most people hated a squealer (that being one of the worst things you could be as a kid). Canseco is a mega-squealer.

[Karlifornia]

Am I the only one that thinks dawgfan and chubby are just cracking under the overwhelming pressure of the sexual tension between them?

Oh, and I believed Palmeiro for some reason before he failed the test. Whoops.