Ebonics rears its head again.

[markprior22]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Perhaps a refresher course in college linguistics is in order. Linguists classify African American Vernacular English (AAVE) as a dialect of English--the speech of its users follows a predictable and systematic pattern of usage (actually pretty similar to other Southeastern US dialects). This is a pretty conventional and rather uncontroversial classification among researchers in the field of linguistics.

But what is up for debate are the educational and social policy implications that AAVE brings up. We can't debate that AAVE exists, but we can debate whether the use of AAVE is useful or detrimental in the learning of the Network Standard American English dialect. I would note that "American English" is probably a more precise term to define what most Americans speak--undoubtedly many people who speak standard British English find the Network American dialect abhorrent in much the same way as AAVE is seen by those who use Network Standard American English...

The liberal/college crowd can call or treat it whatever/however they want. I stand by my opinion and, just because I appear to be in the minority, doesn't mean I'm wrong. I'm sorry but "Who my baby daddy" doesn't cut it.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by JW

I agree about the status Ebonics or AAVE as a legitimate dialect of American English. One problem, however, is that there are those who would grant Ebonics the status of a separate language, which, if ever taken seriously, would cause any number of problems. And we have now seen at least two incidences in recent years in which school districts in California have toyed with the idea of imposing an Ebonics regimen for the classroom.

I agree with you here. Some have posited that Ebonics does have a linguistic structure rooted in West African languages. It's a tantalizing theory with some evidence, but at this point it's probably not true anymore as much time has passed since the first crossings. For me, AAVE has dialect status since it is mutually intelligible with other dialects of English. For it to be a separate language, it would have to be unintelligible to its relative languages (my opinion, since linguists note exceptions to this rule: for example, Scandanavian languages are closely related enough for speakers of the different Scandinavian languages to at least get the gist of what is being said in the related languages).

English might be a better example of vocabulary in one language and grammar structure in another: the majority of English words come from French or Latin but retains a Germanic language structure. Someone who had French or Latin as his primary language would not be able to naturally understand English...

Finally, as for the point about using Ebonics in the classroom. I suspect money is an important driver of this. While I don't doubt that the main proponents of these programs are true believers in the Ebonics as seperate language theory, I think that a lot of administrators jumped on the bandwagon since they saw this as a way to attract much needed money to their underfunded school systems. Remember the M.O. of most educational/non-profit administrators is "how will this get the organization more funding?"

[rkmsuf]

so basically you are saying that they need more ghetto cheese

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

so basically you are saying that they need more ghetto cheese

maybe less is needed, because too much cheese get's you all backed up, thereby making you cranky.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

SANKOFAI yoself!

Actually, that's the first thing I thought of when I read that, although 80's lyrics have been on my brain of late.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by markprior22

The educated crowd who has actually studied the facts about the issue can call or treat it whatever/however they want. I stand by my uneducated opinion and, just because I don't have any facts but just don't like the sound of something different, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Fixed that for you.

Few things get my goat quicker than when people substitute "liberal/college" to stand for people who have spent their careers learning and teaching about difficult cultural issues. There is no serious disagreement on this subject from linguistic experts.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by markprior22

The liberal/college crowd can call or treat it whatever/however they want. I stand by my opinion and, just because I appear to be in the minority, doesn't mean I'm wrong. I'm sorry but "Who my baby daddy" doesn't cut it.

Of course you have a right to your opinion--and from a social policy standpoint, it is a very reasonable one.

It does seem to me, though, that your disdain for our country's most highly educated is pretty similar to the disdain you believe speakers of ebonics have for the highly educated. People love to bash both the poorly educated and the highly educated in this country. I still don't really understand it, as education seems to be more revered in other cultures...

[JW]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Finally, as for the point about using Ebonics in the classroom. I suspect money is an important driver of this. While I don't doubt that the main proponents of these programs are true believers in the Ebonics as seperate language theory, I think that a lot of administrators jumped on the bandwagon since they saw this as a way to attract much needed money to their underfunded school systems. Remember the M.O. of most educational/non-profit administrators is "how will this get the organization more funding?"

That is true. As one who has written a few grants and dealt with federal and state programs, it is all about trying to get the money.

However, I would go a step further and say that this ties in with those who want to excuse poor academic achievement by African-American children as being the result of some vague racism in the educational system itself. There is no denying that racism has played a historic role in black academic achievement, but rather than taking action to improve academic achievement, some people attack standardized tests and language instruction and sometimes the grading system itself.

I think the Ebonics push is tied to this. If we accept Ebonics as a separate language instead of looking at what needs to be done to teach standard English to kids who desperately need those skills, then we can simply excuse their language skills by saying they are speaking a different language. This of course does the kids no good, just as charging that standardized tests are racist does no good. Instead, hard work has to be done from early childhood up to give these kids what they often don't get at home, a good grounding in standard English.

In rural northeast Louisiana, and I'm sure in other places, this is a terrible problem, because many poor black kids are not only not exposed to standard English at home, but they are not exposed to it in their communities, and they are often not exposed to it in pre-school and elementary schools, where poorly paid and trained paraprofessionals and teachers often reinforce rather than correct non-standard English. By the time many of these kids reach high school, it is very difficult to break the pattern.

It is a very difficult problem with many competing dynamics. For example, I've seen black high school students ridiculed by their peers for using standard English. That is a very real phenomenon. I could go on, but I'm getting far away from your point. But it just shows that the Ebonics question is part of a very complex, bigger problem. Sorry if this rambled.

[markprior22]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Of course you have a right to your opinion--and from a social policy standpoint, it is a very reasonable one.

It does seem to me, though, that your disdain for our country's most highly educated is pretty similar to the disdain you believe speakers of ebonics have for the highly educated. People love to bash both the poorly educated and the highly educated in this country. I still don't really understand it, as education seems to be more revered in other cultures...

Thanks for the reasonable response. I understand how you can feel that way about my statement. I was probably wrong to use a disdainful tone toward the highly educated. My bad. The thing that bothers me about our country in its present state is that...we don't force anyone to adhere to anything. If they want to talk silly...hey that's ok...it's cultural and we'll do studies and award grants to allow it to continue. We, as a country, HAVE to accept anything and everything brought in from different "cultures". What ever happened to the idea of a right and wrong way of doing certain things and not accepting everything in between.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Actually, that's the first thing I thought of when I read that, although 80's lyrics have been on my brain of late.

BRILLIANT!

[markprior22]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

Fixed that for you.

Few things get my goat quicker than when people substitute "liberal/college" to stand for people who have spent their careers learning and teaching about difficult cultural issues. There is no serious disagreement on this subject from linguistic experts.

Nothing gets my goat more than people changing others quotes to be a smartass.

I have every right to my opinion and you have a right to yours. I see where you are coming from (although I don't agree that because someone is "educated" they know everything...). Many terrorists are well educated and have studied their cultural issues for many years. They feel very strongly about their beliefs. I happen to think they are wrong. Since you are the type of smartass who likes to take cheap shots rather than have a back and forth discussion...I'll address this as bluntly as I can...FUCK OFF.

[rkmsuf]

fuq off
what 'chew trippin foo'

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by markprior22

Thanks for the reasonable response. I understand how you can feel that way about my statement. I was probably wrong to use a disdainful tone toward the highly educated. My bad. The thing that bothers me about our country in its present state is that...we don't force anyone to adhere to anything. If they want to talk silly...hey that's ok...it's cultural and we'll do studies and award grants to allow it to continue. We, as a country, HAVE to accept anything and everything brought in from different "cultures". What ever happened to the idea of a right and wrong way of doing certain things and not accepting everything in between.

Okay, no problem.

My main point was that however one feels about ebonics, it exists: people talk that way, and as JW points out, there are places in this country where people just aren't exposed to Standard American English. But what is up for debate is what to do about this, if anything. It is not uncontroversial to say that your career prospects will be hampered by not knowing the primary dialect in this country. I think we agree on that. I think we are also making slightly different points--if I hear you correctly, you are saying that ebonics should have no place in the classroom and the students should be learning standard english, which is a reasonable point to me. I am saying, sure we should be doing that, but we also should be putting our wallets where our mouths are and fund inner city and rural schools adequately.

JW also makes a good point that there are cultural forces at play--there is the pervasiveness of the dialect that makes a switch to standard American a bit of a learning curve--much like an American trying to learn British English. The ridicule factor is also very real within many of these black communities, and that certainly inhibits the adoption of the standard dialect.

It's a pretty difficult issue: especially when pervasive issues of race, culture, and money, as well as debates on the psychology of learning, all play a hand...

[Young Drachma]

Texeira said research has shown that students learn better when they fully comprehend the language they are being taught in....

Evidence of morons who run public school districts looking for shortcuts rather than actually trying to teach students.