NCAA Mascot Review

[Ksyrup]

I was going to append this to the Marquette Gold thread, but figured it deserved a thread of its own. Did anyone know about this "review" by the NCAA, which could potentially force members to change their nicknames/mascots? The decision is due by August 1. I'm sure the chance of an outright ban is next to nil, but if they aren't going to do something, what's the point in doing this to begin with? The people who believe this to be demeaning are still going to feel that way, plus feel like the NCAA passed on a chance to do something.





What's in a name?

FSU says Tribe backs the Seminoles mascot
By Steve Ellis
DEMOCRAT STAFF WRITER

The NCAA has the responses from Florida State and 29 other member institutions that use Native American nicknames and mascots.
By August, those schools should have an answer from the NCAA regarding the practice that has come under attack as being insensitive or racist. The NCAA's executive committee, following at least two reviews on the subject this summer, could force its member institutions to change to less controversial nicknames and mascots or decide to leave the issue to the discretion of each university as it does now.

The NCAA gave each school until May 1 to respond to its survey. Chief Osceola and Renegade have been a part of FSU football games for 27 seasons and FSU students voted on the name "Seminoles" during FSU's inaugural football season in 1947.

FSU President T.K. Wetherell is letting his school's April29 response to the NCAA do his talking for now. The three-page letter, obtained by the Tallahassee Democrat, makes familiar defenses for using the Seminole name as well as mascots Chief Osceola and Renegade. Regarding its long-standing relationship, FSU noted "Under the principles of tribal sovereignty, the Seminole Tribe of Florida's elected leadership has determined that it supports our activities and use of the Seminole name."

Vice President for University Relations Lee Hinkle stated in the letter that the university was in compliance with the NCAA and federal and state laws.

The letter also noted "there is absolutely no evidence that our use of the Seminole symbol and images is in any way racist, that it creates a hostile environment for any person, that it contributes to the misinformation contrary to our university's educational mission, that it is damaging to young people of any race, that it is sacrilegious, or that it is contrary to the diversity and antidiscrimination policies of our university and the NCAA.

"...Our use of the Seminoles symbol and images is with the full knowledge of the leadership of the Seminole Tribe of Florida and Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma. ... A communication stream is maintained with the leaders of the Tribe so that there can be open dialogue on matters they wish to bring forward.

"Throughout the years, the university has been diligent in reassessing its many traditions associated with the use of the Seminole name and - with the assistance of the Seminole Tribe - has periodically made changes to more accurately comport with authentic Seminole culture. We will continue to do so."

The American Indian Movement has protested FSU's Seminole nickname since the early 1990s. And the issue continues to attract national interest. USA Today, in a front-page piece in Monday's issue, addressed the topic. And FSU was criticized in March by United Native America for the statue "Integration" - which depicts the school's first black homecoming queen adorned with the traditional American Indian headdress.

May1: 30 members, including FSU, had to respond to NCAA survey on controversial nicknames. FSU responded April 29.

August: NCAA could decide whether to let schools keep the names, ban them or let the schools decide.

• NCAA schools with American Indian mascots. 2C

NCAA SCHOOLS WITH NATIVE AMERICAN MASCOTS

School (Division)	Mascot
Alcorn State (I)	Braves
Arkansas State (I)	Indians
Bradley (I)	Braves
Cal State-Stanislaus (II)	Warriors
Carthage, Wis. (III)	Redmen
Catawba, N.C. (II)	Indians
Central Michigan (I)	Chippewas
Chowan, N.C. (III)	Braves
East Stroudsburg, Pa. (II)	Warriors
Florida State (I)	Seminoles
Hawaii (I)	Warriors
Husson, Maine (III)	Braves
Illinois (I)	Fighting Illini
Indiana, Pa. (II)	Indians
La.-Monroe (I)	Indians
Lycoming, Pa. (III)	Warriors
McMurry, Texas (III)	Indians
Merrimack, Mass. (II)	Warriors
Midwestern (Texas) St. (II)	Indians
Mississippi College (III)	Choctaws
Newberry, S.C. (II)	Indians
N.C. Pembroke (II)	Braves
North Dakota (II)	Fighting Sioux
San Diego State (I)	Aztecs
SE Okla. St. (II)	Savages
Stonehill, Mass. (II)	Chieftains
Utah (I)	Utes
West Georgia (II)	Braves
William & Mary (I)	Tribe
Wisconsin Lutheran (III)	Warriors

[wade moore]

William & Mary (I) Tribe

I mentioned this in the other thread.... My alma mater has also had the backing of local tribes on the name...

[NoMyths]

The Redmen and Savages could have a problem.

[WSUCougar]

Yeah, the mountain lion lobby has been at Washington State for years, trying to get them to change.

[JeeberD]

Should Hawaii really be on this list? I don't know that I would classify Pacific Islanders as Native Americans...at least not in the sense that they are "Indians".

[Klinglerware]

I don't usually mind Native American sports nicknames, but wow, "Savages" doesn't quite pass the "honoring the spirit of our local Native Americans" test. And in Oklahoma no less, where several Eastern native groups were forcibly resettled...

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Should Hawaii really be on this list? I don't know that I would classify Pacific Islanders as Native Americans...at least not in the sense that they are "Indians".

Not sure, but they probably wouldn't have this problem if they were still called the "Rainbows".

[JeeberD]

Well, they were the "Rainbow Warriors", not just the "Rainbows".

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Well, they were the "Rainbow Warriors", not just the "Rainbows".

They changed to "Rainbow Warriors" in 1974. From 1923-1974, they were just the "Rainbows"...

[Wolfpack]

Another interesting one on that list is UNC-Pembroke which actually at one time was a Native American school and still has a large population of NA students. Curiously enough, most of them identify with a tribe (Lumbee) that isn't actually recognized by the Federal government despite several attempts to get it (one of which wasn't so peaceful--the hostage-taking at the newspaper in Lumberton by Eddie Hatcher and Timothy Jacobs way back in the 80s).

[vex]

Everyone leave my Savages alone

[wbatl1]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Should Hawaii really be on this list? I don't know that I would classify Pacific Islanders as Native Americans...at least not in the sense that they are "Indians".

Besides, warrior does not relate only to Native Americans.

[vex]

Dola

Always seems funny to me that people that sit in offices and post on msg boards have more problems with these names than the people that actually attend and live around these schools.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

They changed to "Rainbow Warriors" in 1974. From 1923-1974, they were just the "Rainbows"...

Really?

You learn something new ever day...

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by vexroid

Dola

Always seems funny to me that people that sit in offices and post on msg boards have more problems with these names than the people that actually attend and live around these schools.

Why funny? Living around or attending a school doesn't necessarily mean you have any meaningful understanding of the history of a name or of a people. Quite the opposite in many cases; instead of actual history you substitute a kind of pleasant fiction.

The easiest example would be to say that yes, most scholars of Native American history who live outside Oklahoma probably know and care more than your average student at SE Oklahoma State about these issues.

[Buzzbee]

Seems like the whole package should be investigated rather than just the name. Warriors could be so generic as to refer to any number of groups. I could see where individual tribes such as the Seminoles or Chippewas would have a bone to pick, but if they are agreeable to the use, then others should mind their own business.

Savages, while certainly having a negative connotation is, like warriors, somewhat generic and not specifically tied to Native Americans. Now, if the logo, mascot, etc depicts a Native American, then yeah, by all means get rid of it.

What about Notre Dame. Aren't there some Irishmen around the world who might get offended at the use of Figthin' Irish as a mascot? What about the Ragin Cajuns down in Louisiana? Shouldn't there be riots in the streets over that one?

[vex]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

Why funny? Living around or attending a school doesn't necessarily mean you have any meaningful understanding of the history of a name or of a people. Quite the opposite in many cases; instead of actual history you substitute a kind of pleasant fiction.

The easiest example would be to say that yes, most scholars of Native American history who live outside Oklahoma probably know and care more than your average student at SE Oklahoma State about these issues.

They might know more, but it's not their school. Almost every person in SE Okahoma has Indian blood in them, you don't see us throwing a fit over it.

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by vexroid

They might know and care more, but it's really not their business. It's not their school. Almost every person in SE Okahoma has Indian blood in them, you don't see us throwing a fit over it.

Ah, but that's the problem. It's not you getting your opinion out on these kinds of things. It's the student groups and faculty, etc. on all these other campuses that proclaim they truly "represent" NAs and what they have to say. Suffice to say, without these groups raising a fuss, this would be a complete non-issue, but in these "sensitive" times on campuses across the country, a number of people are objecting and doing so loudly. It doesn't hurt the cause that the adminstrations on most campuses are philosophically sympathetic.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

What about Notre Dame. Aren't there some Irishmen around the world who might get offended at the use of Figthin' Irish as a mascot? What about the Ragin Cajuns down in Louisiana? Shouldn't there be riots in the streets over that one?

Again, I don't care either way (and most Native American's don't really object--per a SI poll done a few years aga--except for extreme caricatures like Chief Wahoo). I can see the argument, though, that "Fighting Irish" is not considered offensive because the origins of the nickname came from the players themselves in the 1920s, when a large percentage of the team and student-body were Irish-American. In comparison, most Native American nicknames were co-opted by schools with a small/non-existent Native American student-bodies (I know that many schools had their origins as schools for Native Americans, in such cases I think any associated Native American nickname would make sense).

Like I said, I don't see a problem with all but the most caricatured displays--but if groups like the Seminoles give their blessing to the use of the name, then it's a non-issue...

[vex]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

Ah, but that's the problem. It's not you getting your opinion out on these kinds of things. It's the student groups and faculty, etc. on all these other campuses that proclaim they truly "represent" NAs and what they have to say. Suffice to say, without these groups raising a fuss, this would be a complete non-issue, but in these "sensitive" times on campuses across the country, a number of people are objecting and doing so loudly. It doesn't hurt the cause that the adminstrations on most campuses are philosophically sympathetic.

I see what you're what you're saying and I understand. I'm just saying, in Oklahoma(SE Oklahoma at least), it's not a big deal.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Really?

You learn something new ever day...

Yep. It's too bad that they got rid of the Rainbow part--it made them a lot more distinctive than the current, generic, "warrior".

[JeeberD]

But it sounded so gay!

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by vexroid

I see what you're what you're saying and I understand. I'm just saying, in Oklahoma(SE Oklahoma at least), it's not a big deal.

Probably because, according to the numbers I could find, only about 12% of the residents of the country the school is located in self-identify as American Indians. It may be (and I'd argue is) a bigger deal than you give it credit for being, but when it's important to a small minority of people the concern isn't always given as much consideration as it perhaps should.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

But it sounded so gay!

The irony is that they also changed the name from "Rainbow Warriors" to "Warriors" because the Rainbow Warrior mascot was considered offensive to many native Hawaiians. Warrior was thought of as being more generic...

http://starbulletin.com/2000/07/06/sports/story5.html

Good old student activism brought about the name change. I'm under the impression that the gay underpinnings were never a reason until Yoshida over-reached by using the gay issue in an attempt to defend the name change to the angry traditionalists who preferred the old name.

[Karlifornia]

These names should all be gone. I mean, what if I entered your home, killed your family and then nicknamed my college after them?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by RadioFriendlyUnitShifter

These names should all be gone. I mean, what if I entered your home, killed your family and then nicknamed my college after them?

Warriors and Tribe I would keep since they have pre-New World discovery connotations/usages. I would urge the schools to be careful about their imagery, though.

[rkmsuf]

SE Okla. St. (II) Savages

Uh, yeah...

[JW]

One can make an argument for banning just about anything. We are becoming a nation of the perpetually offended.

[Ksyrup]

Seminoles back use of name for FSU teams


By Bill Cotterell

DEMOCRAT POLITICAL EDITOR



Leaders of the Seminole Tribe of Florida reaffirmed their support of Florida State University's using the tribe's name Friday, and the school's president said he hopes the NCAA will butt out of the issue.

Max Osceola, a member of the tribal council, said the group isn't offended by FSU sports teams being called the Seminoles, by the Indian face on team emblems or by the war chant and other game rituals.

"We think it's a reflection of the spirit of the Seminoles," said Osceola, whose famous ancestor is depicted at the start of football games by a war-painted student on horseback planting a flaming spear on the field. "We ride horses and raise cattle."

As for fans doing the "tomahawk chop," Osceola said: "To me, it's the universal signal for 'first down.'"

The National Collegiate Athletic Association has ordered 30 teams to do a "self-evaluation" of their use of ethnic names or symbols. Reports from the campuses will be presented to the group's Minority Opportunity and Interests Committee in Boston next week, and that panel can make a recommendation Aug. 3 to a subcommittee on gender and diversity issues in Indianapolis.

"The mascot issue will be one of several that the subcommittee will be meeting about," said Gail Dent, a spokeswoman for the organization.

The diversity subcommittee may make recommendations to the NCAA executive committee Aug. 4. She said the executive panel has "wide open" authority to call for changes.

"The message I received was clear," FSU President T.K. Wetherell said after meeting with tribal leaders Friday at their Big Cypress reservation. "As the tribe's storied history shows, the Florida Seminoles are an unconquered, sovereign and independent people. Florida State is exercising its own independent spirit in suggesting that the NCAA accept an early recommendation of its own committee and leave these decisions to each university."

Wetherell said FSU's relations with the tribe go beyond sports, noting that the university is exploring a relationship with a Seminole charter school and a branch campus in Immokalee.

In an interview with the Tallahassee Democrat, he predictedthatsome activists will continue objecting to ethnic references or depictions. Some leaders of Seminole tribes in Oklahoma are at odds with the Florida tribal council's acceptance of the university's symbols.

"We deal with the Seminole Tribe of Florida. There are other tribes around, but that's the one we relate to," Wetherell said. "From our standpoint and the tribe's standpoint, it probably will continue to come up. Our positions are not going to change. They've seen it grow from 'Sammy Seminole' to what we have today, and that's what they want to see."

Osceola said "we have had a dialogue with FSU since 1970," when the school began scrapping some of its pseudo-Seminole depictions.

"We are close to Florida State and had a resolution in black and white for them," Osceola said. "Native Americans don't have an alphabet; our word is our bond. It's the non-Indians who have an alphabet and need to write things down, so we gave them a resolution."

Wetherell established scholarships that pay 80 percent of tuition for "Seminole Scholars," recruited from the reservations by FSU administrators. The school has four Seminole students, with four more enrolling in the fall, and three Seminole alumni.

At the council meeting, Wetherell also proposed creation of a museum of Seminole heritage and culture on campus. The tribe has 3,000 members living on six reservations in Florida.

[Ksyrup]

Tribe's vote convinces NCAA
Minority committee suggests letting FSU stay with Seminoles
By Steve Ellis
DEMOCRAT STAFF WRITER


The NCAA Executive Committee will have the last word on the use of American Indian nicknames and mascots. But Florida State President T.K. Wetherell praises last week's decision by an NCAA committee to not recommend a ban.

The NCAA Minority Opportunity and Interests Committee made a number of undisclosed recommendations on the subject that will be considered by the NCAA Executive Committee on Aug.4. A ban was not among them.

"That's good news for us. As far as we're concerned, it's a closed issue," Wetherell said.

Wetherell, who will discuss the matter with FSU Athletic Director Dave Hart today, said he'll be interested in what recommendations the committee put together.

"As long as they leave it up to us, I don't have a problem with it," Wetherell said. "They want people to be sensitive."

FSU has long defended its use of the Seminole name and mascots, Renegade and Chief Osceola, because the school has the support of the Seminole Tribe of Florida. The tribal council passed a resolution June17 to reaffirm that support.

Robert Vowels, chair of the NCAA Minority Opportunity and Interests Committee, told the Palm Beach Post that the tribe's support played a part in its decisions.

"The tribe's position made an impression," Vowels said. "We had information. ... We factored everything in there and made our recommendations."

[rafini]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

Another interesting one on that list is UNC-Pembroke which actually at one time was a Native American school and still has a large population of NA students. Curiously enough, most of them identify with a tribe (Lumbee) that isn't actually recognized by the Federal government despite several attempts to get it (one of which wasn't so peaceful--the hostage-taking at the newspaper in Lumberton by Eddie Hatcher and Timothy Jacobs way back in the 80s).

Are you from the Lumberton area? I lived there for a few years, and was wondering because most people wouldn't know the history of the area like that.

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by rafini

Are you from the Lumberton area? I lived there for a few years, and was wondering because most people wouldn't know the history of the area like that.

No, but I did grow up in eastern North Carolina during the 80s and 90s.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by RadioFriendlyUnitShifter

These names should all be gone. I mean, what if I entered your home, killed your family and then nicknamed my college after them?

What if I don't have a problem with it?

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by JW

One can make an argument for banning just about anything. We are becoming a nation of the perpetually offended.

Sir, I am offended at your suggestion that I am easily offended...

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Sir, I am offended at your suggestion that I am easily offended...

Well sir, I am offended that you would so callously name yourself after a P-51. This dedicated warrior aircraft saved our collective tushies in the skies over Germany during World War II, and you've got the audacity to just call yourself "Mustang."

What's next, "Flying Fortress" for a screen name?

[AZSpeechCoach]

Does the wrestler "Warrior" have these issues?

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by AZSpeechCoach

Does the wrestler "Warrior" have these issues?

Yes, he offends Mel Gibson too.

[AlexB]

While many people think think that if a small minority complain, then a name/issue should be addressed, there should be limits as there are a number of over sensitive idiots who will find reason for offence in anything and everything.

I'm not talking about these particular cases because I have no knowledge of them, but to give an example there was a programme on the BBC recently where (I believe) 130 odd people complained, and the BBC promised to take action - why? Their viewing figures were around 8 million - this means 7,999,870 people didn't complain which I believe is the more appropriate figure to look at.

As a general rule if a large percentage (not necessarily a majority) of the group of people who are directly referred to are upset by an issue, then it needs looking at. If, as I personally believe is normally the case, it's a section of middle class bored retired liberals, or students who have nothing better to do, that complain because they are 'caring sharing people' fuck 'em.

From this, if AIM are truly representing the opinions of a large proportion of the North American Indians, then maybe there is reason to discuss/amend some names. It would seem that the Seminoles should be OK from the above articles, but maybe a couple of the others need to be careful about how they represent the name in the forms of imags, etc.

[ntndeacon]

I would think a tribe name would be more to honor the native peoples of the area. whether it be the Seminoles, the Utes of Utah or to mention one close to home , the Choctaws of Miss. College. those would be especially respectful. I knew that W&M had gotten the local native peoples to approve the name Tribe (I believe during the late 80s early 90s but i could be wrong there) But names that have been used to denigrate the Native population of this land should be verbotten. Indians seem ok. Braves well a toss up (asking the local tribes seem to be the way to go there)Calling a program savagesseems almost like calling them the Japs or Kikes, or any other derogative term u can put there.

[Young Drachma]

Savage:

n.

1. A person regarded as primitive or uncivilized.
2. A person regarded as brutal, fierce, or vicious.
3. A rude person; a boor.

One would figure that the Savages think of themselves as #2. But...the fact that we can associate that name with #1 would make think they'd WANT to change it.

[AZSpeechCoach]

There goes my plan to rename my alma mater the Arizona State Whiggers.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

While many people think think that if a small minority complain, then a name/issue should be addressed, there should be limits as there are a number of over sensitive idiots who will find reason for offence in anything and everything.

I'm not talking about these particular cases because I have no knowledge of them, but to give an example there was a programme on the BBC recently where (I believe) 130 odd people complained, and the BBC promised to take action - why? Their viewing figures were around 8 million - this means 7,999,870 people didn't complain which I believe is the more appropriate figure to look at.

As a general rule if a large percentage (not necessarily a majority) of the group of people who are directly referred to are upset by an issue, then it needs looking at. If, as I personally believe is normally the case, it's a section of middle class bored retired liberals, or students who have nothing better to do, that complain because they are 'caring sharing people' fuck 'em.

From this, if AIM are truly representing the opinions of a large proportion of the North American Indians, then maybe there is reason to discuss/amend some names. It would seem that the Seminoles should be OK from the above articles, but maybe a couple of the others need to be careful about how they represent the name in the forms of imags, etc.

Well, here it comes from both sides. You have the whiny liberals talking about how horrible calling something an inoffensive name is so we get our sports mascots names changed because someone is too stupid to realize that they didn't mean in an offensive way. But you also have the whiny conservatives who have gone so far as to form an organization that just writes in complaints to the FCC about something they don't like on tv and this organization has caused the number of yearly complaints to go from a few hundred to the tens of thousands so they're writing over 99% of the complaints.

SI

[illinifan999]

The world would be a better place if people weren't "whale vaginas".