Boston Red Sox: Hall of Fame Discussion

[Easy Mac]

I'll give a poll of the 3 players I think are most likely to make the Hall of Fame. Of course, some (most) teams won't come close to the criteria for the hall, so most of the time it will be the 3 best career on the team. It should be an interesting discussion for some teams, pretty boring for others (See AZ). Also, as an added bonus, I may occasionally do more than 1 set of 3 players for a team. Very rare, there may be a couple of teams who have more than 3 guys who could be hall-worthy. In that case, I'll think of something. So here we go. The poll choices will hopefully be obvious, but who knows. Go here to see everyone we've voted in.

Curt Schilling: Go ahead an seat him on the left hand of God, because the media has made him out to be the greatest pitcher mankind has ever seen. The clincher was the bloody ankle... what more Jesus comparison do you need.

Anyway, his stats are pretty good. Probably would be equal to John Smoltz if Smoltz had stayed as a starter the past 3 years (and remained healthy). I think the media has made him out to be far better than he actually is, so on that note he'll get into the hall. Assuming he can remain healty and doesn't have any more stigmata, he should finish around 200 wins. Not really a hall of fame stat (especially without the saves) but whatever. He's had 4 seasons as a starter where his ERA was sub 3 (3 of which were no more than .05 below 3.00). Again, if he gets healthy, he could get to 3000K's... I have no idea if everyone higher than him is in the hall of fame.

He's also considered a money pitcher in big games. He's 8-2 with a 2.06 ERA in the post-season. His most similar pitcher at the age is Kevin Brown, and I don't know how many people are going to argue Brown should be in the hall (just something to think about.) As you can tell, I say no hall, because I don't think he should. I think he will, but I don't think he should.

Manny Ramirez: I actually think Manny is a better player than most people give him credit for. I think the fact that he's a headcase makes the general public underestimate how good he's been. He's 33 with 409 HR and hits .314 for his career. His career OPS is 1.006. Assuming he'll play 4 years of semi normal Manny years, he should be up around 550 HR or so. He's never really been named in any steroid scandals, so he looks pretty good in that regard. I don't know if the media really respects him, but I think he should be a first ballot (second at the latest) hall of famer. Not much to say for Manny though.

Edgar Renteria: Yes, I'm reaching, but I promised 3 a team, and looking over their 40 man roster, its hard to make a case for some of the older guys. I'll explain about those guys later though. Most people have said Renteria has forgotten how to hit this year, but his avg. isn't really that much different from the norm. The only reason I say Renteria is because in the equivalent of about 8.5 full seasons, he has 1500 hits. Given that he's only 30 (in August), its reasonable to think he could get to 300 hits in his career. The way I see it, that's the magic number to make one a lock for the hall. Now, his periphy stats really don't do anything for me, so I vote No Hall.

The Others:
Johnny Damon - One strike is its Johnny with a fucking H, 2 is he's 32, and 3 is he doesn't really have stats that scream "Hall" He has about 1700 hits, but I don't think time is on his side for his to get to 3000.

David Wells - a nice pitcher with over 200 wins, but none of his other stats say hall.

Jason Varitek - A good team leader who the media loves, but he's not a hall guy... will be immortalized in Boston eventually.

John Olerud - John has a good career, very solid, but he's on the wrong side of it. He just puttered out too soon.

[Young Drachma]

John Olerud is a favourite of mine who won't make the Hall. But then, I have a soft spot for most of the former Blue Jays players.

He'll be honoured in the Jays "ring of honor" or whatever they call it, once he hangs them up.

[Young Drachma]

Dola-

Olerud is one of the few ML players left to have never played in the minors (unless he went down recently with all his bouncing around?) and every team he's played on has made the playoffs at least once during his tenure there.

2,100 career hits/200 career HRs from a guy with not a lot of pop in his bat, though his career average is under .300

Mattingly strikes me as a better candidate for the Hall than Olerud, though.

[Easy Mac]

I think he went to the minors a week or so ago.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Yes, I'm reaching, but I promised 3 a team

That's going to get ugly down the road. Good luck with Toronto.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

He'll be honoured in the Jays "ring of honor" or whatever they call it, once he hangs them up.

Not to threadjack, but do you think he will? I like the guy too, but you could make a solid argument that he wasn't even one of the three best 1B in team history. They didn't add any of the other "good but not great" players like Moseby, Key or Barfield, and Olerud is in the same category (with bonus points for the .363 year).

[Draft Dodger]

I don't see Schilling getting in on stats, but the "big game" rhetoric will probably sway enough voters. his postseason stuff will probably be the difference.

Not much question in my mind that Ramirez gets in - he'd really have to fall off sharply or retire early not to do it. Well on his way past 500 homers, might even make it to 600. He's led the league in batting average, homers, and RBIs. I don't think he'll play long enough, but he's even got a shot at 3,000...but he certainly doesn't need to hit that to get in.

Renteria? never would have ever thought of him as one. still don't.

[GreenMonster]

Manny will make the Hall, Shilling probaly not enough regular season stuff, but he has been outstanding in the postseason.

[st.cronin]

I don't see how Schilling can make it unless he runs off a few more big years. He's really only had a couple of HOF type years. He's like Jack Morris, only with a bunch of injuries.

[ISiddiqui]

Yes, but unlike Jack Morris, he's had the whole leading the Boston Red Sox with the bloody sock to their first WS win in 86 years. Postseason success will get Schilling in. I don't see him not making it with that.

Also:

Schilling:
http://www.baseballreference.com/s/schilcu01.shtml

Career ERA+ = 131

Black Ink: Pitching - 40 (35) (Average HOFer ~ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 195 (41) (Average HOFer ~ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 42.0 (59) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 151.0 (40) (Likely HOFer > 100)

Morris:
http://www.baseballreference.com/m/morrija02.shtml

Career ERA+ = 105

Black Ink: Pitching - 20 (87) (Average HOFer ~ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 193 (44) (Average HOFer ~ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 39.0 (71) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 122.5 (63) (Likely HOFer > 100)

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Yes, but unlike Jack Morris, he's had the whole leading the Boston Red Sox with the bloody sock to their first WS win in 86 years. Postseason success will get Schilling in. I don't see him not making it with that.

Jack Morris did have a bit of postseason success, you know.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Jack Morris did have a bit of postseason success, you know.

But nothing can beat Schilling's last postseason. It's the pinnacle of symbolic postseason success.

And looking at postseason records, Schilling was 15-15 with a 2.06 ERA. Morris was 13-13 with a 3.80 ERA. Now you may say that Schilling was able to feast on teams that weren't as good in the Divisional Playoffs, but in the LCS his ERA was 2.83 and in the WS, his ERA was 2.11.

I also edited my post to include Career ERA+ and HOF Monitors... in which Schilling wins out (especially in Career ERA+)

[st.cronin]

3 20 win seasons in the last 4... I guess he's got a better argument than I realized. I may have to change my vote.

[haji1]

Morris throwing ten innings for the Twins to win the world series was pretty darn special. It wasn't in a major media market like Boston, but it was hyped pretty hard at the time. Schilling's performance to help Boston certainly will get more pub, though, I agree.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

That's going to get ugly down the road. Good luck with Toronto.

Or, uh, Kansas City.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Jack Morris did have a bit of postseason success, you know.

With the Tigers, Twins AND Blue Jays.

The man is a Hall of Famer.

[Swaggs]

I think Manny is the only reasonable bet on the Red Sox. His career path is on track for some pretty gawdy numbers. I've never heard his name linked with steroids, so assuming he is clean, his numbers in the next few years will likely distance him further from the users.

Schilling is a no from me right now. The emotional high of his ankle and the WS win is at its peak right now; it will mean quite a bit less by the time he is eligible (think Joe Carter or Kirk Gibson). He has been very good, but only six seasons of 30+ starts at the age of 38 is pretty telling to me. I'd list him as a maybe, because he is the type of player that is aware of stats and his place in history and loves to play, so I could see him pitching for a lot longer, but I think he'd need three more good (sub 4.00 ERA w/ 15+ wins) for him to be a lock.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Not to threadjack, but do you think he will? I like the guy too, but you could make a solid argument that he wasn't even one of the three best 1B in team history. They didn't add any of the other "good but not great" players like Moseby, Key or Barfield, and Olerud is in the same category (with bonus points for the .363 year).

On second thought, I think you're right.

Delgado was far better long term. Jimmy Key really only had a good year two. Barfield was a beast for a while, so I dunno how he's left out.

But they allowed Winfield, Molitor and those guys. Alomar will go into the Hall as a Blue Jay.

Ok, time for the Jays HoF discussion...

And yeah, we suck. And have since '93. But...oh well. It happens.

[ISiddiqui]

Postseason success for the Blue Jays?

He went 0-3 for Toronto with a 6.57 ERA in the ALCS and an 8.44 ERA in the WS. Toronto won in spite of Morris that year. But he was very good with Detroit and Minnesota.

[TazFTW]

Schilling is outspoken and probably has pissed off a voter or two.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

Or, uh, Kansas City.

Can we borrow Beltran back for our question? You've already got Glavine, Martinez, and Piazza for the Mets.

I mean you've only got 1 right now that you can even make a kindof case for in Sweeney. Hell, only Stairs, Graffanino, Castillo, McEwing, Brown, and Lima are older than 30. So that makes two utility infielders, a backup catcher, a career minor leaguer, a career headcase, and Scruffy- I doubt you can make even a remote case for any of them.

(I can see it now: Mike Sweeney, Jeff Montgomery, and Frank White)

SI

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Can we borrow Beltran back for our question? You've already got Glavine, Martinez, and Piazza for the Mets.

I mean you've only got 1 right now that you can even make a kindof case for in Sweeney. Hell, only Stairs, Graffanino, Castillo, McEwing, Brown, and Lima are older than 30. So that makes two utility infielders, a backup catcher, a career minor leaguer, a career headcase, and Scruffy- I doubt you can make even a remote case for any of them.

(I can see it now: Mike Sweeney, Jeff Montgomery, and Frank White)

SI

Heh...I'll take Johnny Damon and Jermaine Dye back as well, if only to round things out.

Hard to believe KC won a World Series 20 years ago. Thank god that's when I was a hometown fan.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Postseason success for the Blue Jays?

He went 0-3 for Toronto with a 6.57 ERA in the ALCS and an 8.44 ERA in the WS. Toronto won in spite of Morris that year. But he was very good with Detroit and Minnesota.

He was very good in the regular season, the first 20-game winner in team history if I recall correctly. I didn't realize he just fell off out of nowhere. I thought he pitched elsewhere, but apparently he didn't catch on much.

[Bo Jackson's Hip]

IMO Varitek is the modern day Johnny Pesky, in that when he's an old man he'll hang around the park and be kind of a 'trademark' for the Red Sox. If that sounds right.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by Bo Jackson's Hip

IMO Varitek is the modern day Johnny Pesky, in that when he's an old man he'll hang around the park and be kind of a 'trademark' for the Red Sox. If that sounds right.

I hope he and Wakefield both hang around. I love those guys.

[Crapshoot]

Manny may be the best RH hitter of the last 10 years, when all is set and done - great, great, player.

[clintl]

Ramirez is a lock. Schilling has an outside shot, but he had too many years in the 90s when he was a good pitcher, but not an elite one, and he's getting kind of old to make up for that. As for Renteria - there are several SS from the last 30 years who were better than he is, and are not in the Hall. Not a chance, especially playing in an era with the likes of A-Rod, Jeter, Tejada, and Garciaparra. He's a good player, but not a special player.

[Swaggs]

I'm pretty surprised that Schilling is such an overwhelming pick.

He is certainly deserving of mention, but to me, he still has a good bit of work to do in a limited amount of time.

[vtbub]

Schill didn't do to much untill 2000. I can't see him in with less than 200 wins.

[Lathum]

Maybe someone covered this already, but Renteria has the misfortune of playing in the "shortstop" era. If he was a shortstop with his numbers in the 80's or early 90's he would be a shoe in.